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3 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

^
Those wacky future economics again... :laugh:

Yeah. There actually has to be work and paying for things though, no matter what Roddenberry hoped for. Like the Universal Translator, it defies explanation otherwise. You'll never go hungry. You'll always have a nice little apartment or something no matter what happens to you because citizen of the Federation, and you probably get a monthly stipend of repilicator credits (like Voyager's rationing) for stuff you want.

But, you want more stuff, get a job.

Again, the dude working the waste reclamation plant in Sacramento in 2368 isn't doing it for his own personal enrichment.He didn't grow up dreaming of a life in waste recycling.

Well...maybe he did...but then he's just kinda weird. ;)

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45 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

Again, the dude working the waste reclamation plant in Sacramento in 2368 isn't doing it for his own personal enrichment.He didn't grow up dreaming of a life in waste recycling.

Well...maybe he did...but then he's just kinda weird. ;)

You'd hope (?) that by that time many jobs like that would be wholly automated, but we see in STID that flying garbage trucks still float about San Francisco (they may have been automated though; I don't recall seeing a driver during the Spock/Khan battle).   Kind of reminded me of "The Fifth Element."   And just why would there be garbage trucks in an era of near-perfect waste reclamation (since we see people put waste/used dishes/utensils/clothing back into the replicator system...)

At any rate, I've always wondered who does the dirty work in 'utopia.'   If they could build replicators and other advanced cybernetics, you'd think such jobs would be immediately obsolete.  

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11 hours ago, The Founder said:

5) Speaking of being married to a Starfleet officer ... I thought it was interesting when Bashir mentioned how their profession doesn't mix well with marriage. He isn't the only SF character to say that. It seemed like you give something up by joining Starfleet .... (If you want marriage in your life).

 

I think I can say something about this. I view myself as a bit of a biased expert on this subject for some reason I can't quite put my finger on at the moment. :P

A working marriage with a Starfleet officer depends on quite a few things:

The positions of the officer(s) involved. A low-ranking lieutenant in engineering won't have as many problems here as the captain of a starship - simply because the engineer doesn't carry the weight of command responsibility on their shoulders, at least not 24/7, of course engineers have teams and things can get heated as well, but not as much as they do when you're responsible for over 800 or more lives. Here we also have to look at the constellation of the marriage - are they both officers? One of them? If both are officers things are actually even more complicated than it seems at first. First of all there's the danger of both of them carrying their work into the marriage at all times. Ship's business being ALL they talk about and eventually also argue about, especially if they happen to be on oppsite ends opinion-wise and one of them made a decision the other disagrees with. It gets even worse when they're in the same chain of command - when one has to order the other around. But even when they're not, problems are BOUND to be carried into the marriage because one will complain to the other and the other will probably try to interfere and ugh, mess. And all this will then heavily affect BOTH parties in their personal AND professional lives because these two halves of one's life are knit so closely together on a starship or space station. You literally can't walk away, at least not very far, and the holodeck is only a poor substitute for just GETTING AWAY FROM IT ALL.

The constellation officer/non officer isn't without complications either, though, especially not if the officer is high-ranking. We see this with O'Brien and Keiko, although I hesitate to use Keiko as an example, given her rather... antagonistic nature towards O'Brien's Starfleet duty, not every non-officer partner would react like she does. But that's actually a good example for what I mean - the non-officer will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS have to step back for the sake of Starfleet. It gets worse and worse with each passing rank because higher rank means more duties, more responsiblities. (Captain strikes me as even worse than admiral here, though - an admiral at least has a desk job in an office on some planet or outpost, they at least don't have to fly through space and tackle aliens on a regular basis.) You need a REALLY REALLY REALLY understanding partner for this, someone who will be willing to accept that the ship is more important than they are and that, when in doubt, the ship comes first. Finding someone like that is difficult already and KEEPING them even more so then. Of course non-officers have their own lives as well and don't live just for the Starfleet officer, but if that non-officer is on board their significant other's ship/station things become very much unbalanced in terms of "whose duties are more important here" because, naturally, Starfleet duty comes before botany or teaching or whatever else.

But then it all also depends on the personality of the officer, of course. If you have someone like Sisko, emotion-based, open and yet also able to just "let Starfleet go for a little while", marrying isn't out of the question, which is why he marries Kasidy Yates. (Who, by the way, is NOT a Starfleet officer, which I find interesting.) But if you have someone like Kirk, Pike or Jean-Luc, someone who tortures themselves over command responsibility and attaches themselves to their ship with all their heart and mind, finding someone is very difficult because that person will always be in second place in their lives and accepting something like that isn't what most people would want. The Enterprise comes first, no matter what. Command comes first. Starfleet comes first. Duty comes first. Marriage isn't on the menu, because they already ARE married - to their ships. (It would take a very special person to break through that bond - not breaking it, just getting through it. Breaking the bond between a captain and their ship is NOT possible, and if you try, you have lost them before you even started.)

 

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9 hours ago, prometheus59650 said:

Yeah. There actually has to be work and paying for things though, no matter what Roddenberry hoped for. Like the Universal Translator, it defies explanation otherwise. You'll never go hungry. You'll always have a nice little apartment or something no matter what happens to you because citizen of the Federation, and you probably get a monthly stipend of repilicator credits (like Voyager's rationing) for stuff you want.

But, you want more stuff, get a job.

Again, the dude working the waste reclamation plant in Sacramento in 2368 isn't doing it for his own personal enrichment.He didn't grow up dreaming of a life in waste recycling.

Well...maybe he did...but then he's just kinda weird. ;)

That actually makes more sense than the idea that everyone has turned into a philosopher, artist, or just joined Starfleet to do stuff. That everyone at least has a middle class existence so there is no more desperation, poverty, an inability for growth in ones social/economic circle. But I do think (and sincerely hope) that there is room for said growth. That not everything is handed to people.

I saw this really good economics of Star Trek video. It starts off good (before the end turns into a focus on the contradictions on dialogue). It talks about how a post-scarcity resource would allow for essentially anything you could need. But maybe not everything you want. It is isn't really a real-life Venus Project so to speak. There are two things that  cannot be given, though. Real-estate and labor. Joseph Sisko voluntarily offers his services as a chef, but no one forces him. Jake Sisko voluntarily writes stories and gives them away but no one forces him. Now they may work for "free", but there may be others that won't do that. That may not be motivated based on the idea that their artwork betters themselves and humanity.

They may say they want money or Federation credits or latinum in exchange.

I don't buy into the whole "Mankind has evolved" to be self sacrificing to the point where no human on Earth cares about living on a beach front or wanting the latest hover car. Sorry. I just don't buy it. In the words of Lily when Picard said they have a "more evolved sensibility". "BULL****!" I am reasonable enough to believe that humans evolved past OUR (21st century issues) but human nature cannot be so easily erased.

And yes - I really overthink this. :P The economics of Trek fascinate me to no end.

8 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

You'd hope (?) that by that time many jobs like that would be wholly automated, but we see in STID that flying garbage trucks still float about San Francisco (they may have been automated though; I don't recall seeing a driver during the Spock/Khan battle).   Kind of reminded me of "The Fifth Element."   And just why would there be garbage trucks in an era of near-perfect waste reclamation (since we see people put waste/used dishes/utensils/clothing back into the replicator system...)

At any rate, I've always wondered who does the dirty work in 'utopia.'   If they could build replicators and other advanced cybernetics, you'd think such jobs would be immediately obsolete.  

I think in the 23rd century - no replicators exist (as far as I know).

And yeah - I expect menial tasks like that to be automated. There might be humans that "over see" the machines, but only if they break down they'll be around to repair them. I can't imagine most people wanting to "enrich" themselves by being at the bottom. Although ... I just rewatched DS9's "Paradise" and there could be humans like Alexus that do want to do work with their hands ....

So who knows ...

8 hours ago, Mr.Picard said:

I think I can say something about this. I view myself as a bit of a biased expert on this subject for some reason I can't quite put my finger on at the moment. :P

A working marriage with a Starfleet officer depends on quite a few things:

The positions of the officer(s) involved. A low-ranking lieutenant in engineering won't have as many problems here as the captain of a starship - simply because the engineer doesn't carry the weight of command responsibility on their shoulders, at least not 24/7, of course engineers have teams and things can get heated as well, but not as much as they do when you're responsible for over 800 or more lives. Here we also have to look at the constellation of the marriage - are they both officers? One of them? If both are officers things are actually even more complicated than it seems at first. First of all there's the danger of both of them carrying their work into the marriage at all times. Ship's business being ALL they talk about and eventually also argue about, especially if they happen to be on oppsite ends opinion-wise and one of them made a decision the other disagrees with. It gets even worse when they're in the same chain of command - when one has to order the other around. But even when they're not, problems are BOUND to be carried into the marriage because one will complain to the other and the other will probably try to interfere and ugh, mess. And all this will then heavily affect BOTH parties in their personal AND professional lives because these two halves of one's life are knit so closely together on a starship or space station. You literally can't walk away, at least not very far, and the holodeck is only a poor substitute for just GETTING AWAY FROM IT ALL.

The constellation officer/non officer isn't without complications either, though, especially not if the officer is high-ranking. We see this with O'Brien and Keiko, although I hesitate to use Keiko as an example, given her rather... antagonistic nature towards O'Brien's Starfleet duty, not every non-officer partner would react like she does. But that's actually a good example for what I mean - the non-officer will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS have to step back for the sake of Starfleet. It gets worse and worse with each passing rank because higher rank means more duties, more responsiblities. (Captain strikes me as even worse than admiral here, though - an admiral at least has a desk job in an office on some planet or outpost, they at least don't have to fly through space and tackle aliens on a regular basis.) You need a REALLY REALLY REALLY understanding partner for this, someone who will be willing to accept that the ship is more important than they are and that, when in doubt, the ship comes first. Finding someone like that is difficult already and KEEPING them even more so then. Of course non-officers have their own lives as well and don't live just for the Starfleet officer, but if that non-officer is on board their significant other's ship/station things become very much unbalanced in terms of "whose duties are more important here" because, naturally, Starfleet duty comes before botany or teaching or whatever else.

But then it all also depends on the personality of the officer, of course. If you have someone like Sisko, emotion-based, open and yet also able to just "let Starfleet go for a little while", marrying isn't out of the question, which is why he marries Kasidy Yates. (Who, by the way, is NOT a Starfleet officer, which I find interesting.) But if you have someone like Kirk, Pike or Jean-Luc, someone who tortures themselves over command responsibility and attaches themselves to their ship with all their heart and mind, finding someone is very difficult because that person will always be in second place in their lives and accepting something like that isn't what most people would want. The Enterprise comes first, no matter what. Command comes first. Starfleet comes first. Duty comes first. Marriage isn't on the menu, because they already ARE married - to their ships. (It would take a very special person to break through that bond - not breaking it, just getting through it. Breaking the bond between a captain and their ship is NOT possible, and if you try, you have lost them before you even started.)

 

Wow - really great analysis. Seems like Bashir is right. That "their thing" doesn't mesh well with marriage (or is a lot harder than non-Starfleet officers). That actually makes me re think the "womanizer" characters a bit. And the.... "mananizer"? characters like Jadzia. The jumping from person to person and avoiding stable relationships for as long as possible types. Your comment about them being married to their ships is a good point. (well that is more for captains .... but yeah).

It makes me kind of rethink Janeway/Chakotay too for that matter. At the time, Janeway wasn't really yet "married" to VOY yet. She was new to it just like any other officer. But relationships with fellow officers is dangerous because of the reasons you listed plus the potential for conflicts of interest. Such as Quinto's Spock giving Saldana's Uhura a switch to the Enterprise from the Farragut simply because she demanded it. I wonder if a random cadet making that demand to him would have flown the same way?

Somehow Sisko made it work with Kassidy but I think it's because she's a starship captain. So to some degree, she understands the pressures of command and understands there are responsibilities that come with their roles. She would be far more sympathetic to him.

Keiko's constant antagonism to Miles I think is simply poor writing because they were the only officer/civilian couple on Trek for a while. So they wanted to explore how that relationship could put a strain on a marriage. A career officer who constantly was in danger. Hell - in this very episode - he almost died on a seemingly random diplomatic mission. It really makes no sense that in all the time Keiko was with Miles, she didn't understand how difficult it would be to be married to a Starfleet officer. Surely she knew that it had its challenges. Or maybe she didn't mind when you flew around a floating palace like the ENT-D and the problems ensued when you went to the "frontier" in dangerous territory? I'm not sure.

One thing I find interesting is ... you never see a character that started out as Starfleet and then retired somewhere down the line. So they could be explorers and see the universe for a few years (or even decades) and then retire at the rank of LT. Commander or Commander or something. Then they can settle down somewhere. Seems like every officer has to work their way up to captain/admiral for some reason ....

Edited by The Founder

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1 minute ago, The Founder said:

That actually makes more sense than the idea that everyone has turned into a philosopher, artist, or just joined Starfleet to do stuff. That everyone lives at least has a middle class existence so there is no more desperation, poverty, an inability for growth in ones social/economic circle. But I do think (and sincerely hope) that there is room for said growth. That not everything is handed to people.

I have to believe that there is simply because most people WANT to work if they are able, and CHOOSE to work if they can. Studies have borne that out and human nature isn't going to 180 in 400 years.

So there are always jobs, and so long as their are jobs there are crap ones. Even if most of the crap ones are heavily automated in the 24th, someone supervises it.

It's why I roll my eyes with Picard's nonsense in "The Neutral Zone" about how everyone in the whole Federation is just free to enjoy a 150 year life of self-actualization, never having to do that which they don't want to.

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2 hours ago, prometheus59650 said:

I have to believe that there is simply because most people WANT to work if they are able, and CHOOSE to work if they can. Studies have borne that out and human nature isn't going to 180 in 400 years.

So there are always jobs, and so long as their are jobs there are crap ones. Even if most of the crap ones are heavily automated in the 24th, someone supervises it.

It's why I roll my eyes with Picard's nonsense in "The Neutral Zone" about how everyone in the whole Federation is just free to enjoy a 150 year life of self-actualization, never having to do that which they don't want to.

I'm pretty sure after saving the UFP a million times - Picard and Kirk probably can live that life. lol

But I agree with you.

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3 hours ago, The Founder said:

Wow - really great analysis. Seems like Bashir is right. That "their thing" doesn't mesh well with marriage (or is a lot harder than non-Starfleet officers). That actually makes me re think the "womanizer" characters a bit. And the.... "mananizer"? characters like Jadzia. The jumping from person to person and avoiding stable relationships for as long as possible types. Your comment about them being married to their ships is a good point. (well that is more for captains .... but yeah).

It makes me kind of rethink Janeway/Chakotay too for that matter. At the time, Janeway wasn't really yet "married" to VOY yet. She was new to it just like any other officer. But relationships with fellow officers is dangerous because of the reasons you listed plus the potential for conflicts of interest. Such as Quinto's Spock giving Saldana's Uhura a switch to the Enterprise from the Farragut simply because she demanded it. I wonder if a random cadet making that demand to him would have flown the same way?

Somehow Sisko made it work with Kassidy but I think it's because she's a starship captain. So to some degree, she understands the pressures of command and understands there are responsibilities that come with their roles. She would be far more sympathetic to him.

Keiko's constant antagonism to Miles I think is simply poor writing because they were the only officer/civilian couple on Trek for a while. So they wanted to explore how that relationship could put a strain on a marriage. A career officer who constantly was in danger. Hell - in this very episode - he almost died on a seemingly random diplomatic mission. It really makes no sense that in all the time Keiko was with Miles, she didn't understand how difficult it would be to be married to a Starfleet officer. Surely she knew that it had its challenges. Or maybe she didn't mind when you flew around a floating palace like the ENT-D and the problems ensued when you went to the "frontier" in dangerous territory? I'm not sure.

One thing I find interesting is ... you never see a character that started out as Starfleet and then retired somewhere down the line. So they could be explorers and see the universe for a few years (or even decades) and then retire at the rank of LT. Commander or Commander or something. Then they can settle down somewhere. Seems like every officer has to work their way up to captain/admiral for some reason ....

I apologize for my captain-heavy analysis, but for the past 14 years I've been thinking/writing fic about little else than being married to a starship captain and the issues this can or cannot bring  - it shows. I can talk about this for hours if necessary, I have thought out every nuance and decided that it's what I would be willing to accept, difficult or not. :laugh: 

As for Keiko - I think a lot of her antagonism is rooted in the fact that she's a botanist at heart. She could work as a botanist on the Enterprise-D, but then O'Brien moved to DS9 and all of a sudden she was left without a job, bored and annoyed. I mean if I'd been her I'd have asked early on if Bajor needs a botanist anywhere but then once she really does that and accepts that job she and O'Brien are separated for long periods of time - something like this can be an incredible strain on a marriage that, until then, was heavily based on O'Brien being the one who leads the way and who is always busy with his duty. Of course part of it all is also bad writing - the nagging annoyed housewife stereotype was SO not needed here. I doubt it goes like this in every officer/civilian marriage. (Well I hope not, lol!) I also still say that she knew what she was getting herself into indeed.

Being a civilian who is married to a Starfleet officer means personal sacrifice, and a LOT of it - MORE than it means for the Starfleet officer sometimes. The civilian is the one who carries the burden in the background, especially if the officer is high-ranking. One burden of command becomes a burden for two, and not every civilian is cut out for this kind of thing (I agree with you that Kasidy Yates understands Sisko very well here due to her own job), it takes a lot of strength and stamina - you will be the one the officer seeks out for advice and to lean on, especially after your relationship/marriage has been going on for a while, and you have to shove your own feelings into the background on more than one occasion because "now is not the time, your partner has a ship to worry about, don't burden them with your problems as well now". What I'm trying to say here I guess is that most people think it's difficult for the high-ranking OFFICER to be married due to the whole "I must make my decisions on my own, unbiased, I can't heavily rely on anyone else" thing... when it's actually as difficult or even MORE so for the one the officer is married to, especially if that person is a civilian. If you have officer/officer marriage the problems become slightly different but also even more complicated because the third person in your marriage is no longer "just" a ship and/or duty on the ship/station (which is complicated enough already), it's also Starfleet itself with its chain of command issues.

 

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