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Enterprise Discovery

Episode 1.15 “Will You Take My Hand?” Discussion Thread

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21 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Any decision they make (one way or the other) is going to rub some fan the wrong way, so I think they should just embrace it, own it, and try to get Quinto as Spock.   He did a perfectly acceptable Spock in the BR movies, and I think it’d be a nice consolation prize for those of us who want, and will most likely not see, another BR ST movie.

I thought Quinto's Spock was a valid interpretation of a human-Vulcan hybrid, even though he was very different from the character Mr. Nimoy played.  Since Quinto was in a reboot, I was happy for him to give us his own interpretation of the character in that timeline.  But in the Prime timeline, I want to see Spock being like the one Mr. Nimoy played.  I want a restrained and logical scientist, not an action hero who happens to have pointed ears.

I watched all four seasons of Heroes, and Quinto was excellent in it, especially in the little-watched 4th season, when he got to be several different kinds of Sylar, from evil to good to even naive.  So I know he's an excellent actor, but his interpretation of the character -- partly guided by the writing of the reboot movies -- is a much more human version of Spock.  I prefer my Spock to be mostly Vulcan.

And yes, I'm aware that Cage-era Spock behaved differently than Kirk-era Spock, because Number One was supposed to be the restrained and logical one during "The Cage."  Since only the parts of "The Cage" that are in "The Menagerie" are technically canon, I maintain that the unSpocklike things we see him do in the Cage footage that's in "The Menagerie" is part of the Talosian illusion. :biggrin:

 

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11 hours ago, Corylea said:

I thought Quinto's Spock was a valid interpretation of a human-Vulcan hybrid, even though he was very different from the character Mr. Nimoy played.  Since Quinto was in a reboot, I was happy for him to give us his own interpretation of the character in that timeline.  But in the Prime timeline, I want to see Spock being like the one Mr. Nimoy played.  I want a restrained and logical scientist, not an action hero who happens to have pointed ears.

I watched all four seasons of Heroes, and Quinto was excellent in it, especially in the little-watched 4th season, when he got to be several different kinds of Sylar, from evil to good to even naive.  So I know he's an excellent actor, but his interpretation of the character -- partly guided by the writing of the reboot movies -- is a much more human version of Spock.  I prefer my Spock to be mostly Vulcan.

But a lot of what went into Quinto’s movie-Spock was probably informed from the writing and the direction.   Quinto is a fine enough actor to handle playing a more conventional Spock as well, I’m sure.  Not quite as on-the-nose as Nimoy, but I don’t think anyone can ever really fill those boots...

11 hours ago, Corylea said:

And yes, I'm aware that Cage-era Spock behaved differently than Kirk-era Spock, because Number One was supposed to be the restrained and logical one during "The Cage."  Since only the parts of "The Cage" that are in "The Menagerie" are technically canon, I maintain that the unSpocklike things we see him do in the Cage footage that's in "The Menagerie" is part of the Talosian illusion. :biggrin:

Well, they WERE reading Spock’s mind, so maybe his emotional slip-ups were what he was thinking at the time.... ;)

SpockTHEWOMEN.jpg

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14 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Any decision they make (one way or the other) is going to rub some fan the wrong way, so I think they should just embrace it, own it, and try to get Quinto as Spock.   He did a perfectly acceptable Spock in the BR movies, and I think it’d be a nice consolation prize for those of us who want, and will most likely not see, another BR ST movie.

I think they are trying to keep the Kelvin movies at a bit of a distance, and they WANT to have people think it is the Prime universe. While many like you will say it is a totally different universe and enjoy it on that level, that is clearly NOT their goal. So in that sense, I could see them looking at casting Quinto as something that could undermine that goal.

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8 hours ago, kenman said:

While many like you will say it is a totally different universe and enjoy it on that level, that is clearly NOT their goal. So in that sense, I could see them looking at casting Quinto as something that could undermine that goal.

It may not be their stated goal, but they certainly seem to be working toward that end.  The different looks to damn near everything, a whole Klingon war/occupation that was never previously mentioned, etc.  They may say that the series is set in the prime universe, but it’s obvious to me (and others, I suspect) that it’s not.

2 hours ago, Locutus said:

Spocks exclaiming “The women’!” cracks me up every time.

I still love his elfin grin at the singing plants... that was one of those little cool ‘yes, it’s an alien planet’ moments that later episodes missed, I think...

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11 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

It may not be their stated goal, but they certainly seem to be working toward that end.  The different looks to damn near everything, a whole Klingon war/occupation that was never previously mentioned, etc.  They may say that the series is set in the prime universe, but it’s obvious to me (and others, I suspect) that it’s not.

All they talk about is how they plan to rectify those issues as they move forward, so while so far they may not have yet achieved the goal, but it is their goal moving forward I think.

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Just now, kenman said:

All they talk about is how they plan to rectify those issues as they move forward, so while so far they may not have yet achieved the goal, but it is their goal moving forward I think.

I don’t really see it all aligning, but sure... whatever they have to say to save face, I guess.  Meanwhile, I’m just enjoying it for what it is; and I’d actually prefer that they drop the insistence on it being prime.   Let the audience be the judge of that.  I remember ENT making similar promises early in its pre-publicity, and then they threw a ‘temporal cold war’ at us to justify all of their little ‘wizard did it’ moments. 

Personally, I’m less interested if it lines up or not and I’d rather they just allow themselves the same creative freedom that the BR movies did (but rarely took advantage of, sadly...).

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Just now, Sehlat Vie said:

I don’t really see it all aligning, but sure... whatever they have to say to save face, I guess.  Meanwhile, I’m just enjoying it for what it is; and I’d actually prefer that they drop the insistence on it being prime.   Let the audience be the judge of that.  I remember ENT making similar promises early in its pre-publicity, and then they threw a ‘temporal cold war’ at us to justify all of their little ‘wizard did it’ moments. 

Personally, I’m less interested if it lines up or not and I’d rather they just allow themselves the same creative freedom that the BR movies did (but rarely took advantage of, sadly...).

If they have a story in mind, then maybe it could be good and make it work out.  For me the visuals don't matter nearly as much as the story, and if the story can line up (and so far nothing has been so off, not even the Klingon war) that I can't rectify it with other canon.  So the style doesn't yet match up. If the uniforms slowly change over to classic Trek styles, I am down.  Trek is full of so many issues in canon, stuff that doesn't line up with past records (much of Enterprise...) that it really doesn't matter if they don't mention the war too much later.

But whether or not you agree with that point isn't really my point - my point is that if their goal is to distance themselves from the Kelvin timeline and try and convince people it is Prime timeline, casting Quinto, who has a pretty different interpretation of Spock, would not help the case much. Not saying it would be horrible, but I do think that it would be on their mind and they may not want to go that route.

 

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16 minutes ago, kenman said:

But whether or not you agree with that point isn't really my point - my point is that if their goal is to distance themselves from the Kelvin timeline and try and convince people it is Prime timeline, casting Quinto, who has a pretty different interpretation of Spock, would not help the case much. Not saying it would be horrible, but I do think that it would be on their mind and they may not want to go that route.

I’d rather go with Quinto than a wax-figure, CGI version of Leonard Nimoy.  And recasting the role a third time cheapens the significance of the character a bit IMO.  Quinto had Nimoy’s blessing for the role, and he looks young enough.  Works for me. 

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16 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

I’d rather go with Quinto than a wax-figure, CGI version of Leonard Nimoy.  And recasting the role a third time cheapens the significance of the character a bit IMO.  Quinto had Nimoy’s blessing for the role, and he looks young enough.  Works for me. 

My first choice would certainly be Quinto.  It’s hard for me to imagine that a decent CGI rendering of Spock could be achieved on a television budget (even though TV budgets have come a long way since the days of TOS).  At the same time, I’d probably prefer they attempt that or try some magical “Trials and Tribble-ations”-like editing, then recast the role yet again.  Given that they recast Sarek a second time, I’m a little concerned.  

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2 hours ago, Locutus said:

My first choice would certainly be Quinto.  It’s hard for me to imagine that a decent CGI rendering of Spock could be achieved on a television budget (even though TV budgets have come a long way since the days of TOS).  At the same time, I’d probably prefer they attempt that or try some magical “Trials and Tribble-ations”-like editing, then recast the role yet again.  Given that they recast Sarek a second time, I’m a little concerned.  

As much as I love the character of Sarek, Spock is Star Trek.  You can’t recast him too often before the character loses something special.   I think Quinto, if he’ll do it, would be terrific. 

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3 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

As much as I love the character of Sarek, Spock is Star Trek.  You can’t recast him too often before the character loses something special.   I think Quinto, if he’ll do it, would be terrific. 

I agree.  Sarek is not as iconic so recasting him is an easier pill to swallow.

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5 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

As much as I love the character of Sarek, Spock is Star Trek.  You can’t recast him too often before the character loses something special.   I think Quinto, if he’ll do it, would be terrific. 

Quinto as Spock

Quinto doesn't rule it out, but he seems to think that they probably won't need him.

Nimoy's son also is ok with a CGI Spock ...

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1 hour ago, The Founder said:

Quinto as Spock

Quinto doesn't rule it out, but he seems to think that they probably won't need him.

Nimoy's son also is ok with a CGI Spock ...

They would probably want to keep it a secret if they decided to cast Quinto.

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37 minutes ago, scenario said:

They would probably want to keep it a secret if they decided to cast Quinto.

Would casting Quinto for the 'same(ish)' character mean that they are infringing on Paramount's IP?

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34 minutes ago, Hammer said:

Would casting Quinto for the 'same(ish)' character mean that they are infringing on Paramount's IP?

Probably.

Doesn't mean they wouldn't do it, particularly if that merger starts looking more likely/actually happens. 

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Interesting article on the USS Enterprise appearance in this episode. I havent seenb this episode, and after reading that article, I kinda know I will not watch it any time soon. Have a good reading.

Gus

The reveal of the USS Enterprise as led by Captain Pike was a big twist in the season finale of Star Trek: Discovery. The inclusion of the ship has led to a lot of fan debate. While we can’t settle any of those debates today, certainly not before we see what they’re planing to do with the Enterprise in season two, we can do what Trekkies do best, which is to analyze the new “Disco” design of the most famous ship in the Star Trek franchise.
 
The new tweaks to the classic design are certainly interesting, and contain a variety of influences, primarily of course the final version of the classic Enterprise model that was used for The Original Series. There are also details from the pilot version as seen in “Where No Man Has Gone Before,” and the later refit version first seen in The Motion Picture. Also in the mix of influences are the NX-class from Star Trek: Enterprise, and yes, a dash of the Kelvin-universe USS Enterprise as well.
 
Full article :
 
Edited by GustavoLeao

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On 2/17/2018 at 12:33 PM, GustavoLeao said:

Interesting article on the USS Enterprise appearance in this episode. I havent seenb this episode, and after reading that article, I kinda know I will not watch it any time soon. Have a good reading.

Gus

The reveal of the USS Enterprise as led by Captain Pike was a big twist in the season finale of Star Trek: Discovery. The inclusion of the ship has led to a lot of fan debate. While we can’t settle any of those debates today, certainly not before we see what they’re planing to do with the Enterprise in season two, we can do what Trekkies do best, which is to analyze the new “Disco” design of the most famous ship in the Star Trek franchise.
 
The new tweaks to the classic design are certainly interesting, and contain a variety of influences, primarily of course the final version of the classic Enterprise model that was used for The Original Series. There are also details from the pilot version as seen in “Where No Man Has Gone Before,” and the later refit version first seen in The Motion Picture. Also in the mix of influences are the NX-class from Star Trek: Enterprise, and yes, a dash of the Kelvin-universe USS Enterprise as well.
 
Full article :
 

I  thought DSC's interpretation of the USS Enterprise was spot-on.

I had the classic silhouette and lines, but looked modern enough to pass muster with newer designs and production aesthetics.   That was a hell of a tightrope they ran across, and they did so beautifully.

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It reminded me  of the very effective reworking of the Dakeks in Dr Who. Not the horrible “new paradigm” versions but the transition from the old school Daleks of 1963-91 to the gold bronze version seen when the continuation began in 2005 or so. Same shape, same proportions but dashes or modern style in trimmings and detail. 

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5 hours ago, Yorick said:

It reminded me  of the very effective reworking of the Dakeks in Dr Who. Not the horrible “new paradigm” versions but the transition from the old school Daleks of 1963-91 to the gold bronze version seen when the continuation began in 2005 or so. Same shape, same proportions but dashes or modern style in trimmings and detail. 

Exactly this!  I was trying to think of what it reminded me of, and it’s especially sad because the whole weekend I’ve been surrounded by these...

img_8511.jpg?w=1000   :laugh:

Can’t believe it didn’t occur to me. 

the-new-enterprise-in-discovery.png


Thanks, Yorick.  :thumbup:

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22 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

I  thought DSC's interpretation of the USS Enterprise was spot-on.

I had the classic silhouette and lines, but looked modern enough to pass muster with newer designs and production aesthetics.   That was a hell of a tightrope they ran across, and they did so beautifully.

If this is how fans will support this reimagining and revisionism of TOS, then I am okay with it.

But would be nice if CBS could say "officially" that this is an alternnate universe, just like the JJ  TREK movies  did, in order to explain the differences in design and continuity.

The original Matt Jefferies design is the "oficial" look in my book.

Gus

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2 hours ago, GustavoLeao said:

If this is how fans will support this reimagining and revisionism of TOS, then I am okay with it.

But would be nice if CBS could say "officially" that this is an alternnate universe, just like the JJ  TREK movies  did, in order to explain the differences in design and continuity.

The original Matt Jefferies design is the "oficial" look in my book.

Gus

I fundamentally disagree with the idea that every aesthetic change requires placing the show in an alternate universe.  If anything, the faithfulness of the Enterprise in the season finale proved we ARE in the Prime universe.  Additionally, the writers attempt to explain why Kirk/Spock had not heard of the Mirror Universe despite Discovery’s experiences there. And, as for the Klingon War, not every major event in Star Trek history needs to be discussed at length in some episode or movie later on.  The writers have already “officially” said this is in the Prime universe.  The fact that a few fans can’t accept it is not surprising, but my enjoyment of the show is not ruined as a result.

Star Trek: Discovery might not be perfectly consistent with TOS and certainly is not perfect in some other respects, but neither was TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, or ENT.  It is a fine Star Trek show set in the Prime universe.

Edited by Locutus

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IMHO, adherence to supposed "canon" is virtually identical to fundamentalist religion.  Both are wide open to personal interpretation of "Correctness" and as a result, are total failures from the start.

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15 minutes ago, Mutai Sho-Rin said:

IMHO, adherence to supposed "canon" is virtually identical to fundamentalist religion.  Both are wide open to personal interpretation of "Correctness" and as a result, are total failures from the start.

Part of canon is consistency of character. If someone wrote a great script but it required all of the characters to act totally out of character it might be a good story but it wouldn't be star trek.  A script with Spock acting all emotional and having to convince a timid Kirk to fire photon torpedoes when the Enterprise is in immediate danger of being destroyed without any explanation might be a good story but it just wouldn't fit. The bridge crew freezing in an emergency without any reason given. That sort of thing would violate canon and not really be Star Trek. 

On the other hand, If TOS had been made a few years earlier it would have been in black and white. Would that have been canon? If it had been made in 1924 would people complain that the show had sound and you can't see the strings on the spaceships? 

I don't think that Discovery fits especially well with canon but then again neither do any of the other shows if you want to nitpick. It depends on how important things are to you. I like Discovery a lot and I'm willing to say it's close enough to canon that I don't mind. 

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2 hours ago, Locutus said:

I fundamentally disagree with the idea that every aesthetic change requires placing the show in an alternate universe.  If anything, the faithfulness of the Enterprise in the season finale proved we ARE in the Prime universe.  Additionally, the writers attempt to explain why Kirk/Spock had not heard of the Mirror Universe despite Discovery’s experiences there. And, as for the Klingon War, not every major event in Star Trek history needs to be discussed at length in some episode or movie later on.  The writers have already “officially” said this is in the Prime universe.  The fact that a few fans can’t accept it is not surprising, but my enjoyment of the show is not ruined as a result.

Star Trek: Discovery might not be perfectly consistent with TOS and certainly is not perfect in some other respects, but neither was TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, or ENT.  It is a fine Star Trek show set in the Prime universe.

I understand your feelings, and opinion on canon issues but I dont share them.

No doubt the focus of the fandom now is DISCOVERY,  but no thanks. I am not stay on board for this adventure.

I am just an old country brazilian farmer.

Whatta hell I know : I am the guy who loves STAR TREK V for petes sakes.

Gus

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