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Enterprise Discovery

Episode 1.15 “Will You Take My Hand?” Discussion Thread

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14 hours ago, prometheus59650 said:

At the very least, DSC S2 holds out a strong likelihood of seeing Spock. Very hard-pressed to have Burnam and Sarek there and have Spock absent from the episode. 

While I yield to no one in my affection for Spock, I'm a bit leery about having him in Discovery.  Spock is a difficult character to play -- as witness all the lackluster Vulcans we've seen over the years -- and I'd much, much MUCH rather not have Spock in Discovery than have him played badly.

The Enterprise has emitted a distress call, and Captain Pike is the one calling, so they might not need to have Spock in the next episode; the Discovery crew could consult with the captain and the chief engineer of the Enterprise or something.  And since this is during the 18-year rift -- during the time when Sarek tells Kirk he wants another guide -- Sarek wouldn't ask to speak to Spock or even ask how he is.

 

Edited by Corylea

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Just now, Corylea said:

.  And since this is during the 18-year rift -- during the time when Sarek tells Kirk he wants another guide -- Sarek wouldn't ask to speak to Spock or even ask how he is.

See, I dunno.

This Sarek really doesn't seem to have any problem with Starfleet, so it's hard to see where the rift between them is even believable right now.

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1 minute ago, prometheus59650 said:

See, I dunno.

This Sarek really doesn't seem to have any problem with Starfleet, so it's hard to see where the rift between them is even believable right now.

Yes, that's part of the problem I have with Discovery; this guy feels like some other Vulcan, not Sarek.

Maybe Spock can have been injured on a landing party, and he'll be unconscious in sickbay when Discovery contacts the Enterprise.  That would get him out of the way without changing either canon or this version of Sarek.

This Sarek smirked at Michael towards the end.  I mean really! :rolleyes:

 

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54 minutes ago, Corylea said:

You called it!  Right on the nose, I'm very impressed!

Now that the season is over, I find that I enjoyed the ride, but it felt as if it all added up to LESS than the sum of its parts.  I liked it but didn't love it.

 

It made perfect sense to me! Now the off time can be spent with fans wondering "who will they cast as Pike and Spock!"

I also would agree that on the whole I liked it more than loved it.  That first half was mildly enjoyable at the time, and the second half was pretty entertaining.  I think the finale itself was solid, mildly satisfying...it seemed represented of the whole season...it showed promie and potential of what the show could be, but wasn't perfect. I think now that they've got their production team in place, and they aren't being rushed (and sets and much of the cast is already in place)...they have time to craft a stronger second season. If it waffles it will be a shame, because I think the Mirror arc proved that this how can do some great stuff.  They've got time and a lot of the stuff that can so easily bog down a first season (casting your main players and figuring out how they all tick, designing the show's look, conceiving basic premises....) are now out of the way.  I think there is strong potential for the show going forward. 

As first seasons go?  Among the better entries in Trek canon.  TOS still has the most consistent opening season for my money, DS9 is far better than it often gets credit for, and this comes in third for me.  TNG was rough, VOY is messy (which didn't change much in my view), and ENT is uninspired.  This season had some issues, things I didn't like...but overall I call it Trek and think it has the goods.

I will probably rewatch the finale, write-up a review and then collect my thoughts for a full season recap this week on my (newly revamped!) Trek Review blog. 

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Was it just me or were there people in the crowd at headquarters in Discovery-style uniforms but in a lighter shade of blue, like the color of the Pike-era science uniforms?

The Enterprise looked great, but I had hoped for The Cage with updated lighting.  They went straight past both The Cage and Where No Man Has Gone Before.  I am guessing we are still in a parallel universe.

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I thought that this was one of the weaker episodes of the season. Yes, it wrapped up the war as expected, but it felt too easy. I'm not a big fan of Micheal's taking-the-high-road speeches, they are a bit rich for me... I also felt that Georgiou shouldn't have been motivated by mere freedom. Her sole obsession should be to get back to the MU and back in control of the Terran Empire. She does not accomplish this. 

To the comments about humans walking around on Qon'os with barely any attention given, I assumed that they were either slaves or Orions. It's possible that the Klingons can't tell humans and Orions apart.

I think they could have made 'Sarek' Tuvok's grandfather rather than Spock's father, and it would have made a lot more sense. But, we just have to have that Spock connection... *sigh*

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16 minutes ago, Comiskeybum said:

Wouldnt it be funny if Bruce Greenwood appears?  LOL.  

He's much too old to be Cage-era Pike; I really hope they get someone else.

 

22 minutes ago, Hammer said:

I thought that this was one of the weaker episodes of the season. Yes, it wrapped up the war as expected, but it felt too easy

Yes, it felt too easy to me, too.  The Klingons have caused THAT much devastation, and you end it all by handing L'Rell an iPad?

I think the creative team wanted the morality-play element, where Burnham and the rest of the Disco crew stood up (literally) against war crimes and genocide, but these writers have proven quite creative; I'd think they could have managed that with a little more gravitas.  The slumming-in-an-Orion-nightclub segment felt overlong and not really necessary to me; if they'd cut half of that, they could have given ending the season-long war more than a nod and a smile.

 

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The only way the ending makes sense to me is if the war wasn't popular and there were arguments about it. Minor houses that didn't have their own ships were left out. Elders who knew Klingon history knew that this wouldn't end well. Once the Federation was looted, the Klingons would turn on each other because that's what Klingons always do when they go to war as individual houses.  They were just looking for an excuse to end the war.

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Despite a nasty cold and an earache, I still managed to put together my thoughts on tonight’s episode for my blog:

https://musingsofamiddleagedgeek.blog/2018/02/11/star-trek-discovery-s1-finale-will-you-take-my-hand/

And please forgive any goofs... I blame them on my current dilapidated condition... :P

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3 hours ago, Yorick said:

Let’s not overlook the return of Clint Howard! Star Trek episode appearances now span over fifty years! 

I thought that was pretty funny.

giphy.gif

No one plays weirdos and creepy aliens quite like Clint Howard. :giggle:

 

And...

 

BIG SPOILER ALERT!!!

 

 

 

Seeing DSC's USS Enterprise confirmed something I’d felt all along, and it was something I’d said here and in my blog; that DSC is indeed set in some higher-tech, slightly altered-version of the prime universe.   There is NO WAY the aesthetic of 1966’s TOS would or could precisely line up with the newer show, and frankly, I’m relieved that they didn’t try.   Just the sight of a close-enough USS Enterprise (as well as TOS’ end title theme) packed more than enough of an emotional wallop for me. 

 

Every series made post-“First Contact” (1996) is part of a new, higher-tech version of what will ultimately line up with many of the events of the prime universe, but it will not BE the actual prime universe.   That universe still exists in space and time but it is forever bifurcated into this newer, post-ENT/post-FC timeline, the one that has both Jonathan Archer’s NX-01 (which I believe did NOT exist in TOS or it would’ve been seen on the ‘wall of ships’ named Enterprise) and the USS Discovery with her ‘spore drive’.

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Just put this in the ENT universe, then you can enjoy it without wondering why the show doesn't look like it was made 50 plus years ago.

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1 hour ago, Dillkid said:

Just put this in the ENT universe, then you can enjoy it without wondering why the show doesn't look like it was made 50 plus years ago.

Exactly.

https://musingsofamiddleagedgeek.blog/2018/01/17/the-issue-of-star-trek-and-its-continuity/

Every incarnation of Star Trek, post-1996’s First Contact, is part of a new bifurcated version of the prime timeline.   Events in both versions loosely (or in rare cases, exactly) align, but the overall technology of the newer timeline is more sophisticated. 

Pike’s Enterprise in DSC’s universe probably visited Talos IV, and probably had other events in common, but they probably had the holographic comm systems and other higher tech innovations we see in DSC.   It wouldn’t surprise me if the DSC Enterprise's corridors and bridge module designs look similar to Discovery as well. 

Like it or not, this is a new version of Starfleet (and Federation history); a version that first began when Picard and the Enterprise-E were forced to save mid-21st century history by subtly altering it, thus creating the NX-01 version of the prime timeline that has now given rise to Discovery’s era as well.

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I’m also feeling a bit hurt...Clint Howard didn’t offer me any Klingon 'volcano fumes' when I met him in 2016.

28770857955_0f5a784a15_c.jpg

 

Then again, I’m nowhere near as adorable as Mary Wiseman either... :giggle:

dark-tilly.jpg?w=1000

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2 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

I thought that was pretty funny.

giphy.gif

No one plays weirdos and creepy aliens quite like Clint Howard. :giggle:

 

And...

 

BIG SPOILER ALERT!!!

 

 

 

Seeing DSC's USS Enterprise confirmed something I’d felt all along, and it was something I’d said here and in my blog; that DSC is indeed set in some higher-tech, slightly altered-version of the prime universe.   There is NO WAY the aesthetic of 1966’s TOS would or could precisely line up with the newer show, and frankly, I’m relieved that they didn’t try.   Just the sight of a close-enough USS Enterprise (as well as TOS’ end title theme) packed more than enough of an emotional wallop for me. 

 

Every series made post-“First Contact” (1996) is part of a new, higher-tech version of what will ultimately line up with many of the events of the prime universe, but it will not BE the actual prime universe.   That universe still exists in space and time but it is forever bifurcated into this newer, post-ENT/post-FC timeline, the one that has both Jonathan Archer’s NX-01 (which I believe did NOT exist in TOS or it would’ve been seen on the ‘wall of ships’ named Enterprise) and the USS Discovery with her ‘spore drive’.

I don't think the updated look for the Enterprise confirms that this is an alternate universe. The look-and-feel are just props. If they had the tech 50 years ago, it would have looked like it did today. They did the best they could with the tech they had at the time. Our imagination was supposed to fill in the gaps. I don't think that the interface matters, buttons and knobs vs touch screen buttons and computerized interfaces, as much as what the technology does. Spore drive is an inconsistency that needs to be explained, however, the look and feel of an ops station doesn't. There's nothing stopping them from using bulky knobs, jellybean buttons and switches, it would still have the same functionality in the circuit. Maybe in dark or smoky conditions, having a tactile switch or knob which you would know where it is by muscle memory would be better than trying to find the right place to touch on a computer touchscreen.

I think that they tried to put this in the prime universe, but they got sloppy with character consistency because the story they wanted to tell demanded, for example, that Sarek act completely out of character. If you are going to make a prequel to an iconic show, of course people are going to call you out when you don't make the effort to keep canon consistent. They tried to have the best of both worlds, and we ended up getting this mishmash of 26th Century tech with a 23rd Century setting. It's a compromise that only satisfies those that don't give two rips about the canon and are just happy to see TOS characters and references on screen. 

For me, TOS was never my generation's Trek, TNG was. I appreciate what the original crew did for the franchise, but I just don't have the nerd-gasm over the TOS Enterprise as I would if the ENT-D had shown up on screen. Of course I'm going to watch this, I had gone so long without new Trek on TV that I would have watched no matter what. I'm just not as excited about the setting as I would have been if it had been set post-Nemesis. It put them in an impossible position of sticking to established canon, which they couldn't do, while trying to forge new ground. 

I also have to disagree about the strength of this episode. For me, the only weaker episode on the season was the one with Mudd and his time resetting device. Cornwell's character is tarnished in this episode, and throughout the season she is weak and makes dumb decisions. Some of the plot points don't work unless she is making the wrong decision. Cornwell is Discovery's Beverly Crusher. Burnham again threatens a mutiny, but she is restored in rank? That right there speaks volumes about how weak of a character Cornwell is. For that matter, why wasn't she put back in custody when they got back from the MU? Cornwell was against her war-time draft, without Lorca to protect her she probably should have been locked back up. Instead she is privy to top secret information and is on critical away missions, while still facing charges. 

I felt that too much time was wasted in the Orion town scenes. Also, L'Rell gets a reset button which ends the war. It just felt so unsatisfying. That was the way they were going to end the war, after all of that?

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4 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Every series made post-“First Contact” (1996) is part of a new, higher-tech version of what will ultimately line up with many of the events of the prime universe, but it will not BE the actual prime universe.   That universe still exists in space and time but it is forever bifurcated into this newer, post-ENT/post-FC timeline, the one that has both Jonathan Archer’s NX-01 (which I believe did NOT exist in TOS or it would’ve been seen on the ‘wall of ships’ named Enterprise) and the USS Discovery with her ‘spore drive’.

This.

That whole steampunk before there was steampunk Enterprise that Jeffery Hunter's Pike commanded now never happened.

And, I firmly believe that, for all the grousing that some have done over the new style, if 1966 Trek had the budget and the technical skill, the interiors and such probably would have looked a lot like DSC. It's clean, streamlined...futuristic. He'd have shot for the moon with it, I think.

One thing I DON'T buy in the finale, that, admittedly, they have plenty of time to explain, but I do not buy that they would shelve Spore Drive until they can find a technological connection to the network.

No. Just no. This is, for all intents and purposes, a PERFECT drive system. You can go anywhere, instantly. Ships loaded with it could functionally explore the entire galaxy in a generation or two. Someone attacks you? How long would the Dominion War have lasted if Starfleet could send fleets instantly and simultaneously to destroy Dominion shipyards and White production facilities?

Not long.

And you can travel to other universes. With enough experience, an operator could likely pick their universe and it's no big leap to say the network winds through time as well so...insta-time travel.

This drive is perfect.

Yes, there are dangers, but Stamets volunteered, so surely others would too.

If they were to say, "Yeah, the universe was almost destroyed by mucking with it, so no more." I could understand...but..."Until we figure out a non-human operator?"

No. It's too big a thing to give up when it works NOW.

 

Edited by prometheus59650

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10 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Despite a nasty cold and an earache, I still managed to put together my thoughts on tonight’s episode for my blog:

https://musingsofamiddleagedgeek.blog/2018/02/11/star-trek-discovery-s1-finale-will-you-take-my-hand/

We usually agree with one another so much that I could be your alternate-universe self (from a nicer universe than the Mirror one, obviously) :P ... but not this time.

While I did enjoy many of the same things that you enjoyed, from the return to core Star Trek values to Clint Howard's cameo to sassy Saru to that glimpse of the ship that will always be first in my heart, I didn't find this episode nearly as satisfying as you did. 

The resolution of the Klingon war felt too easy and didn't completely make sense to me.  If the detonator is all that's keeping L'Rell in power, how come they don't jump on her and grab it or steal it from her the first time she falls asleep?  I just didn't buy it.  I was glad to see a resolution to the war, and I was glad that resolution didn't involve genocide, but my suspension of disbelief just couldn't stretch quite that far.  I'm happy to put the war behind us, but I was hoping the wrap-up would work a bit better.

We'd been hoping the writers wouldn't press the time-travel reset button, and they didn't, but I actually think I might have found that more sensible and more satisfying that what they did do.  I think I'd have found it more believable.  Well, in as much as time travel is ever believable. ;)

I also didn't think Sarek was that much more in character, considering that he SMILED at Burnham.  And he's SO happy about her being in Starfleet that he asked to be the one to give her her commander's pin back?  Blue-eyed Sarek is clearly from an alternate universe.

 

1 hour ago, Hammer said:

I don't think the updated look for the Enterprise confirms that this is an alternate universe. The look-and-feel are just props. If they had the tech 50 years ago, it would have looked like it did today. They did the best they could with the tech they had at the time. Our imagination was supposed to fill in the gaps. I don't think that the interface matters, buttons and knobs vs touch screen buttons and computerized interfaces, as much as what the technology does. Spore drive is an inconsistency that needs to be explained, however, the look and feel of an ops station doesn't. There's nothing stopping them from using bulky knobs, jellybean buttons and switches, it would still have the same functionality in the circuit. Maybe in dark or smoky conditions, having a tactile switch or knob which you would know where it is by muscle memory would be better than trying to find the right place to touch on a computer touchscreen.

This.  All of this!  Our imagination was, indeed, supposed to fill in the gaps. 

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6 minutes ago, Corylea said:

The resolution of the Klingon war felt too easy and didn't completely make sense to me.  If the detonator is all that's keeping L'Rell in power, how come they don't jump on her and grab it or steal it from her the first time she falls asleep?  I just didn't buy it.  I was glad to see a resolution to the war, and I was glad that resolution didn't involve genocide, but my suspension of disbelief just couldn't stretch quite that far.

This is easily my biggest issue. I can even see that, after a while, with her philosophy, and, most importantly, success, the Houses would settle down and accept her.

My problem though is, initially, not only could they just take her detonator from her, I find it hard to believe that the other Houses would all just accept that she had this bomb, that it WAS a bomb that would destroy the entire planet, or that she was willing to pull the trigger. 

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11 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

This is easily my biggest issue. I can even see that, after a while, with her philosophy, and, most importantly, success, the Houses would settle down and accept her.

My problem though is, initially, not only could they just take her detonator from her, I find it hard to believe that the other Houses would all just accept that she had this bomb, that it WAS a bomb that would destroy the entire planet, or that she was willing to pull the trigger. 

Also, was she not on Qo'noS when she made that speech? If she had pulled the trigger at that moment, she would not survive either. Could she not have just retrieved the bomb? What incentive did she have to follow through on her deal once she had control of the bomb? Does she spare honor on humans?

Also, it was kind of strange that it wasn't mentioned until this episode that the Federation had a WMD of that scale. Even if the original plan had succeeded, I don't see how it wins the war for Starfleet in the short term. The ships were already deployed, so while losing shipyards on Qo'noS would mean they wouldn't have the ability to replace ships as easily, they still had the upper hand in the war.

Why was the Klingon attack force crawling so slowly towards Earth? They were only 100 AU out, 14 Light-hours. They could have been there nearly instantaneously. Voyager pushed about 2.7 Light-years/day so it could have made the trip in about 50 seconds. They should have taken minutes, not hours or days.

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I was tired of the Klingon war and wanted it to go away, and I know many other fans felt the same way.  The writers did make it go away, and I think maybe they expected us to be so happy the war ended without genocide that we wouldn't think about it too hard.

Say WHAT?  Have they MET Star Trek fans?  Thinking about it too hard is what we do:P

 

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11 minutes ago, Hammer said:

Could she not have just retrieved the bomb? What incentive did she have to follow through on her deal once she had control of the bomb? Does she spare honor on humans?

 I can accept that she'd trade all the humans in return for the ability to guide the Empire because she believed that much in the whole Torchbearer philosophy...and she knew that all that was ahead of them was the Houses chewing one another up.

 

16 minutes ago, Hammer said:

Even if the original plan had succeeded, I don't see how it wins the war for Starfleet in the short term. The ships were already deployed, so while losing shipyards on Qo'noS would mean they wouldn't have the ability to replace ships as easily, they still had the upper hand in the war.

This is true. They wouldn't have just run home. They would most likely have rage-sacked Earth first. I mean, why WOULDN'T they?

 

20 minutes ago, Hammer said:

 

Why was the Klingon attack force crawling so slowly towards Earth? They were only 100 AU out, 14 Light-hours. They could have been there nearly instantaneously. Voyager pushed about 2.7 Light-years/day so it could have made the trip in about 50 seconds. They should have taken minutes, not hours or days

To give Burnam time to act obviously. :)

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I'm really excited that they ended the Klingon story arch I would like something new for the next season. Perhaps involving The Gorn or The Tholians? Either way it was a great first season and I'm counting down the weeks until Season 2 in September.

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