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Enterprise Discovery

Episode 1.15 “Will You Take My Hand?” Discussion Thread

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8 hours ago, scenario said:

Old argument. Lorca handed him over to mafia dad. I believed that Lorca expected that he would be dead in a year or so as soon as the wife got tired of him.

I know people who were hot shots at thirty, burned out by 40. TOS Mudd was burned out and on the run from mafia dad and the law. His darling wife couldn't put up with his bs anymore and became the shrew in TOS. By this time, he just wanted to get enough money to live in reasonable comfort, somewhere. He doesn't have the energy, desire or alien gadget for the big scam anymore. He just wants enough money to be comfortable. 

He could hack and manipulate a starship's system when he had the alien gadget and ship. I'm sure ships codes change on a regular basis. He got all the codes he needed at one point in time. If he had left and came back in a month his plan would not have worked because some or all of the codes would have changed. A few months locked away with his wife and the information he had would be almost worthless and he'd have no way to get it back because he had lost the one of a kind alien gadget. 

His big super Mudd style came from one super gadget that gave him the ability to steal lots of money. Without it, he goes back to a small time thief. 

This is the same Mudd who stole a ship from a prison in “I, Mudd” and wandered aimlessly through the galaxy because he didn’t know how to navigate... yet he could hack the Discovery’s transporters and forcefields like a pro??  Don’t think so.   TOS’ Mudd was a bumbler (“Kirk, I’m NO scientist!”) and now he’s a freaking Bond villain. 

And mirror-Lorca would’ve greased him.  Plain and simple.   He wouldn’t have bothered remanding him to anyone’s custody.   I’m also guessing Lorca could’ve made it look like an accident too, no doubt...

 

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2 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

This is the same Mudd who stole a ship from a prison in “I, Mudd” and wandered aimlessly through the galaxy because he didn’t know how to navigate... yet he could hack the Discovery’s transporters and forcefields like a pro??  Don’t think so.   TOS’ Mudd was a bumbler (“Kirk, I’m NO scientist!”) and now he’s a freaking Bond villain. 

And mirror-Lorca would’ve greased him.  Plain and simple.   He wouldn’t have bothered remanding him to anyone’s custody.   I’m also guessing Lorca could’ve made it look like an accident too, no doubt...

 

Do you really trust anything that Mudd says? He's a conman. He said he didn't know how to navigate. That doesn't mean he really didn't.  He got good at playing the bumbler.  Or maybe he couldn't run the ship he stole because parts were broken or he was locked out of them. 

 I just think that if you give someone with limited skills some very high tech, they can do a lot. Especially if the person he stole it from was a thief who was an expert in high tech. We've got self driving cars in 2018. Why would he need to know how to navigate on any kind of advanced ship? 

"Computer, fly me to Lorca's ship." "Computer, what would be the best way to capture that ship?" "Computer, run simulation, what would happen if I tried this?" Try it over and over again for thousands of times. Eventually you get it right. 

Lorca in the Mirror Universe would have killed him for certain. But someone from the mirror universe doesn't take someone trying to kill him personally. What he didn't want is this getting back to Starfleet. If he turned Mudd in it raises questions. Killing Mudd means paperwork or it might make some goody two shoes on the ship file a report with Starfleet. More questions.   Only a few people on the ship really know what happened. He only needs a few more weeks or months at most to put his plan in action. Giving Mudd to his mafia fil looked like a merciful solution to the crew that knew what was going on. He's playing for time. 

Anyway, I think that if you give someone a highly advanced ship, with a highly advanced computer that has a near sentient mind and a device that can turn back the clock allowing you to try something thousands and thousands of times, you could accomplish a lot with modest intelligence. We don't know where he got the gadget from. I'm thinking he stole it from a superthief. 

Anyway, I still think that particular episode is the weakest of the series so far by a pretty wide margin. I'm willing to suspend my disbelief. It's far fetched but somewhat possible in the ST universe. It was a wasted episode when you've only got 15 a year. 

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17 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

This is the same Mudd who stole a ship from a prison in “I, Mudd” and wandered aimlessly through the galaxy because he didn’t know how to navigate... yet he could hack the Discovery’s transporters and forcefields like a pro??  Don’t think so.   TOS’ Mudd was a bumbler (“Kirk, I’m NO scientist!”) and now he’s a freaking Bond villain. 

And mirror-Lorca would’ve greased him.  Plain and simple.   He wouldn’t have bothered remanding him to anyone’s custody.   I’m also guessing Lorca could’ve made it look like an accident too, no doubt...

 

Mirror-Lorca trying his hand at the kind Starfleet way of undertanding and peace to get on the side of folks like Burnham and earn their trust...he bumbled that Starfleet way a bit, because he doesn't really get it.  That makes more sense to me in his handling of Mudd than what it initially seemed like. 

I do think that Mudd should've just been a new trickster character.  But being that he is Mudd, I can also buy that he grows weary and restless over years living with the wife...he gets fat and lazy, loses some old spark, mind grows weak from probably booze and not keeping up with tech as it changes and updates...then he tries to leave the wife once he is over the hill and out of touch...I can buy it. 

I used to work with this bumbling guy, seemed like he didn't understand anything about video editing or any of the tech we used...always baffled and annoyed.  Then I found out that in the 90s...he was one of the best editors they had in that building. Fast, sharp, understood it all...he was a go to guy at one point.  But pot, some failed relationships and whatnot...he got lazy and didn't keep up with the technology as it changed more and more into computers.  And he never stayed out of the business!  He worked in the same building for 20+ years and went from being a top dude, to kind of a buffoon. We all have stories of the guy (before he made yet another dumb move, taking a buyout and early retirement with no plan or money to make it work...a decision he only realized was a bad move for him once the papers were signed and it was too late)...but when I hear of the younger hot shot, I find it unfathomable, but it is backed up by everyone who was there with him.  So I would say that the idea that Mudd was young and could do a ton of cool stuff, but then loses touch and focus and becomes a bumbling idiot is TOTALLY realistic to me.

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2 minutes ago, kenman said:

So I would say that the idea that Mudd was young and could do a ton of cool stuff, but then loses touch and focus and becomes a bumbling idiot is TOTALLY realistic to me.

Yeah, but we’re talking about 10 years, not 20 or 30.  He went from a genuine threat to a laughable lout in too short a time.  

Not to mention that the list of his offenses in Mudd’s Women didn’t bother to mention “Hijacked a Federation Starship and nearly destroyed it (multiple times) only ten years ago.”    Sure that might’ve raised a flag or two.

For me, “Magic to Make...” is still DSC’s worst offering of the season.  I could just omit from this year’s offerings altogether and I not miss it one bit.  

The Disco ‘disco’ party (heheh) scene was probably my favorite bit in the whole episode, and that was mainly due to drunken Tilly. :laugh:

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Just now, Sehlat Vie said:

Yeah, but we’re talking about 10 years, not 20 or 30.  He went from a genuine threat to a laughable lout in too short a time.  

Not to mention that the list of his offenses in Mudd’s Women didn’t bother to mention “Hijacked a Federation Starship and nearly destroyed it (multiple times) only ten years ago.”    Sure that might’ve raised a flag or two.

For me, “Magic to Make...” is still DSC’s worst offering of the season.  I could just omit from this year’s offerings altogether and I not miss it one bit.  

The Disco ‘disco’ party (heheh) scene was probably my favorite bit in the whole episode, and that was mainly due to drunken Tilly. :laugh:

The guy I knew in life lost his touch in about 10-15 years as I understand it, and he wasn't sitting at home getting fat...he was IN the business day in and day out.  I genuinely don't find this at all hard to swallow. 

And the way they ended things made it seem that his attempted hijacking was not being put into official logs, otherwise why would he just be handed over like that?  Lorca maybe saw the idea that he practically lost the ship as a threat to his command, and his schemes...so he just got rid of him.  Maybe he didn't really keep great logs at all, not being a genuine person.  And if Discovery's time during the Lorca period gets classified, maybe that event doesn't make it into official records. 

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5 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Yeah, but we’re talking about 10 years, not 20 or 30.  He went from a genuine threat to a laughable lout in too short a time.  

Not to mention that the list of his offenses in Mudd’s Women didn’t bother to mention “Hijacked a Federation Starship and nearly destroyed it (multiple times) only ten years ago.”    Sure that might’ve raised a flag or two.

For me, “Magic to Make...” is still DSC’s worst offering of the season.  I could just omit from this year’s offerings altogether and I not miss it one bit.  

The Disco ‘disco’ party (heheh) scene was probably my favorite bit in the whole episode, and that was mainly due to drunken Tilly. :laugh:

I really doubt that Lorca would have reported almost losing his ship. He filed some kind of report but left out most of the details. 

In Mudd's women, he was giving the women illegal drugs. Drug dealers are frequently drug users. It doesn't take all that long to fry your brain on some drugs.

I agree about Tilly. By far the only worthwhile thing in the episode. 

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3 minutes ago, kenman said:

And the way they ended things made it seem that his attempted hijacking was not being put into official logs, otherwise why would he just be handed over like that?  Lorca maybe saw the idea that he practically lost the ship as a threat to his command, and his schemes...so he just got rid of him.  Maybe he didn't really keep great logs at all, not being a genuine person.  And if Discovery's time during the Lorca period gets classified, maybe that event doesn't make it into official records. 

^
This I don’t buy at all.  ONE of the other officers would’ve recorded it in their logs (Stamets, maybe?  Or even by-the-book Saru?).   And given the scale of threat that Mudd posed, there should’ve been a galaxy-wide APB on him. 

3 minutes ago, scenario said:

In Mudd's women, he was giving the women illegal drugs. Drug dealers are frequently drug users. It doesn't take all that long to fry your brain on some drugs.

If he was taking the VENUS drug he was peddling?  He would’ve turned into Chris Hemsworth. :laugh:

320x240.jpggiphy.gif

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1 minute ago, Sehlat Vie said:

^
This I don’t buy at all.  ONE of the other officers would’ve recorded it in their logs (Stamets, maybe?  Or even by-the-book Saru?).   And given the scale of threat that Mudd posed, there should’ve been a galaxy-wide APB on him. 

If he was taking the VENUS drug he was peddling?  He would’ve turned into Chris Hemsworth. :laugh:

320x240.jpggiphy.gif

What would Saru have put in his logs? He would only remember the last attempt. Only Stamets had any memory at all of the prior attempts. And who is going to read an obscure log entry a few years later and go "OMG we've got to go get that Mudd guy." I really doubt that reading peoples log entries is a big thing at Starfleet. 

Drug dealers frequently sell more than one type drug. And how do you know that it would work on men? Maybe he'd end up looking like Chris Hemsworth or maybe he'd end up looking like Rosanne Barr.

The drug was essentially a hair and makeup drug anyway. Give Mudd better hair and makeup, he's still not Chris. 

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5 hours ago, scenario said:

Drug dealers frequently sell more than one type drug. And how do you know that it would work on men?

Mudd himself mentions (in dialogue) that the Venus drug enhances both feminine and masculine qualities.

5 hours ago, scenario said:

What would Saru have put in his logs? He would only remember the last attempt. Only Stamets had any memory at all of the prior attempts. And who is going to read an obscure log entry a few years later and go "OMG we've got to go get that Mudd guy." I really doubt that reading peoples log entries is a big thing at Starfleet.

Starfleet Command's reading of Spock’s log got Kirk demoted in STID.   And there’ve been numerous examples of TOS’ McCoy threatening Kirk with a contrary medical log.   Other examples in DS9, too.   The logs of a prototype spore-drive starship on a secret mission such as DSC might warrant even more scrutiny by Starfleet Intelligence, I’d think (or even Section 31?).

5 hours ago, scenario said:

The drug was essentially a hair and makeup drug anyway. Give Mudd better hair and makeup, he's still not Chris. 

To quote Chekov, “I vas making a leetle joke...”   :P

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1 hour ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Mudd himself mentions (in dialogue) that the Venus drug enhances both feminine and masculine qualities.

Starfleet Command's reading of Spock’s log got Kirk demoted in STID.   And there’ve been numerous examples of TOS’ McCoy threatening Kirk with a contrary medical log.   Other examples in DS9, too.   The logs of a prototype spore-drive starship on a secret mission such as DSC might warrant even more scrutiny by Starfleet Intelligence, I’d think (or even Section 31?).

To quote Chekov, “I vas making a leetle joke...”   :P

I was just thinking that S31 had yet to be mentioned on Discovery. We know it existed in during ENT so it definitely should be around somewhere.

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I just want some sort of confirmation that this isn't the Prime or the Kelvin universe.  They've dropped the term "multiverse" over and over so it wouldn't be that much of a jump.

I think the only way to reconcile the cannon inconsistencies and open up the show to new possibilities is to come right out and say it's a different universe in the multiverse.

I may be late and this was already proposed but oh well....

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36 minutes ago, jeffbroussard said:

I just want some sort of confirmation that this isn't the Prime or the Kelvin universe.  They've dropped the term "multiverse" over and over so it wouldn't be that much of a jump.

I think the only way to reconcile the cannon inconsistencies and open up the show to new possibilities is to come right out and say it's a different universe in the multiverse.

I may be late and this was already proposed but oh well....

Right there with you, Jeff.  And welcome aboard.  I've already reconciled DSC in my personal head canon as an alternate universe, but the show won't do the same.  I suspect that they're leaving a door open so that the ship will end up in the prime universe at the end of the series; that way they can say, "Well, we're in the prime universe...now." 

Anyway, glad you joined our forum.  

Post often and prosper!

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16 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Right there with you, Jeff.  And welcome aboard.  I've already reconciled DSC in my personal head canon as an alternate universe, but the show won't do the same.  I suspect that they're leaving a door open so that the ship will end up in the prime universe at the end of the series; that way they can say, "Well, we're in the prime universe...now." 

Anyway, glad you joined our forum.  

Post often and prosper!

Thanks!

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12 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Mudd himself mentions (in dialogue) that the Venus drug enhances both feminine and masculine qualities.

Starfleet Command's reading of Spock’s log got Kirk demoted in STID.   And there’ve been numerous examples of TOS’ McCoy threatening Kirk with a contrary medical log.   Other examples in DS9, too.   The logs of a prototype spore-drive starship on a secret mission such as DSC might warrant even more scrutiny by Starfleet Intelligence, I’d think (or even Section 31?).

To quote Chekov, “I vas making a leetle joke...”   :P

First off, Star Trek Into Darkness is a horrible example for anything. That movie barely counts as a movie, let alone Trek canon! But even I remember it was a REPORT not a log that got him demoted.

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1 hour ago, kenman said:

First off, Star Trek Into Darkness is a horrible example for anything. That movie barely counts as a movie, let alone Trek canon! But even I remember it was a REPORT not a log that got him demoted.

But McCoy still threatened Kirk with making contrary log entries in both “Corbomite Maneuver” and “Obsession”; Bashir similarly threatened Sisko in “In the Pale Moonlight” so there’s that, as well.  

And yes, I’m loathed to use STID as an example of anything, but nitpicking over report/log is really just semantics.  Same difference, and the argument is still supported by the other examples. 

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21 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

This is the same Mudd who stole a ship from a prison in “I, Mudd” and wandered aimlessly through the galaxy because he didn’t know how to navigate... yet he could hack the Discovery’s transporters and forcefields like a pro??  Don’t think so.   TOS’ Mudd was a bumbler (“Kirk, I’m NO scientist!”) and now he’s a freaking Bond villain. 

And mirror-Lorca would’ve greased him.  Plain and simple.   He wouldn’t have bothered remanding him to anyone’s custody.   I’m also guessing Lorca could’ve made it look like an accident too, no doubt...

 

Some TOS episodes were meant to be taken seriously, and some were comedy.  I don't think the comedy episodes were meant to be taken seriously.  You think Kirk really set up Sigma Iotia II to pay tribute to the Federation in "A Piece of the Action"?  You think it took days for them to figure out a logic problem that would freeze the androids in "I, Mudd"?  I think they play fast and loose with characterization -- of the people, of Starfleet, and of the Federation -- whenever they make a comedic episode.

I think "Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad" was a comedic episode in the tradition of "I, Mudd" and "A Piece of the Action," and as such, nothing that happened in it was meant to be taken too seriously.

So, yeah, Harry Mudd was too competent and Lorca was too lenient, but none of that is real, in a sense.  The comedy episodes are kind of outside of normal canon, following their own comedic rules.

 

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Wow, Admiral Cornwell again looks very weak and indecisive. I'd like to know why she's still allowed to hand out medals after that affair. She should have been drummed right out of the service. The mutineer is the one to call her out over Starfleet principles? Puh-lease... 

Captain Georgiou's identity is supposed to be top secret, but let's casually tell cadet Tilly, Tyler/Voq and the Klingon in the brig. 

No attempt was made to iron out the inconsistencies, so I guess we'll be debating that for the next year until a new season comes out. There is no reason this war wouldn't have been mentioned in TOS and they have given us no answer as to why it wasn't.

Of course it ends on a teaser, who was the new captain from Vulcan going to be? What does Pike need of Discovery? What does Pike's Enterprise look like on the inside?

Tyler/Voq is moved to the background, probably because there isn't much use for his character if the focus is not going to be the Klingons next season.

L'Rell taking over by holding Kronos hostage? That's pretty shaky ground. 

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A good finale overall.

Cornwell really is a joke. Either nuke the homeworld or not, but the mutineer threatening another mutiny is kind of nonsense.

No doubt Georgiou and Tyler will be back

13 minutes ago, Hammer said:

who was the new captain from Vulcan going to be? 

No way to know if he's even Vulcan. They were going there to pick him/her up, but there's no knowing if he's from there.

 

15 minutes ago, Hammer said:

L'Rell taking over by holding Kronos hostage? That's pretty shaky ground. 

For a while, maybe, until they get used to the new order.

But, to be honest, I don't see how ELSE L'Rell, unites the Houses.

 

I must admit that Connie was lovely.

 

And to reiterate, Tilly is a wonderful character and gorgeous to boot. Her promotion is well-deserved.

But...I'm really sort of getting sick of Michael Sermon, because she's always good for at least one an episode.

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On 2/9/2018 at 12:10 PM, kenman said:

As to the question as to whether or not we will see the Enterprise and Pike or anything?  I think it is possible, I wouldn't be surprised if the final image of the season is seeing that ship, as an enticement to bring fans back next season.  A little tease that we may see more of the original ship?  That may keep many a fan intrigued to return.  Especially if they wrap up their major storylines, seeing that original ship would be a tease that has little to do with the current plot but gives fans some kind of last moment tease to return. 

You called it!  Right on the nose, I'm very impressed!

Now that the season is over, I find that I enjoyed the ride, but it felt as if it all added up to LESS than the sum of its parts.  I liked it but didn't love it.

 

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4 minutes ago, Corylea said:

You called it!  Right on the nose, I'm very impressed!

Now that the season is over, I find that I enjoyed the ride, but it felt as if it all added up to LESS than the sum of its parts.  I liked it but didn't love it.

 

Overall though, I found it to be a better first season than most of the modern icarnations.

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Just now, prometheus59650 said:

Overall though, I found it to be a better first season than most of the modern icarnations.

For sure better than Season 1 of TNG or ENT.  :)

Season 1 of TOS was really amazingly strong (though I know you were leaving that out by talking about modern incarnations).  Given that they were making up the Star Trek world and everything in it, Season 1 of TOS looks better all the time, especially if you watch it in production order.

Still, I'm hooked enough to wonder who they're picking up at Vulcan, so I'm on board for next season. ;)

 

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The Enterprise looked perfectly fine and as far as visual reboots go it was spot on.  The two ships looks almost identical in size though.  So there's that......

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1 minute ago, Corylea said:

For sure better than Season 1 of TNG or ENT.  :)

Season 1 of TOS was really amazingly strong (though I know you were leaving that out by talking about modern incarnations).  Given that they were making up the Star Trek world and everything in it, Season 1 of TOS looks better all the time, especially if you watch it in production order.

Still, I'm hooked enough to wonder who they're picking up at Vulcan, so I'm on board for next season. ;)

 

Indeed.

TOS still holds up amazingly well

At the very least, DSC S2 holds out a strong likelihood of seeing Spock. Very hard-pressed to have Burnam and Sarek there and have Spock absent from the episode. 

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