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Maltz

Is it time to give up on Discovery? (Spoilers)

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I've tried to accept this show, I really have, but they just keep messing things up. The latest blunder is that by 2257, the Klingon Empire already occupies the Organian system. In TOS "Errand of Mercy", the Klingons visit the planet for what is clearly supposed to be the first time; there's never been any major Klingon presence in the region before the episode. I do not see how this can be reconciled.

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1 minute ago, Maltz said:

I've tried to accept this show, I really have, but they just keep messing things up. The latest blunder is that by 2257, the Klingon Empire already occupies the Organian system. In TOS "Errand of Mercy", the Klingons visit the planet for what is clearly supposed to be the first time; there's never been any major Klingon presence in the region before the episode. I do not see how this can be reconciled.

I don’t think this is reason alone to give up on the show.  I’m guessing they’ll try to explain it with some kind of time travel-ish thing, but at any rate, I accept all of it as a new side universe anyway.  You have to, because it’s never going to line up perfectly... it just can’t

But is that reason for giving up on it?  I think that’s a bit of an overreaction.  I’m still very much entertained by it, despite any continuity issues. 

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Using time travel to undo it would be a bad move, and I'm not sure I can see that happening anyway. They've really messed up here.

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1 minute ago, Maltz said:

Using time travel to undo it would be a bad move, and I'm not sure I can see that happening anyway. They've really messed up here.

Personally, I’d rather wait to see how it concludes before I assume that.

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1 minute ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Personally, I’d rather wait to see how it concludes before I assume that.

Thing is, if it does use time travel to avert the war.....the show's done. And if it doesn't......well, it's still done, because this is a development that simply does not square at all with Errand of Mercy.

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I'm willing to take the show as it is. I'm with Sehlat Vie. I look at it as an alternate universe. I'm also willing to let it finish the season before I give up. I don't expect my shows to be totally perfect, just fun. If everyone quite on things that weren't perfect, they wouldn't watch any tv or read a book or have any friends. 

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1 hour ago, scenario said:

I'm willing to take the show as it is. I'm with Sehlat Vie. I look at it as an alternate universe. I'm also willing to let it finish the season before I give up. I don't expect my shows to be totally perfect, just fun. If everyone quite on things that weren't perfect, they wouldn't watch any tv or read a book or have any friends. 

This. I'm also with Vie here.

That there's really any sort of hard and fast continuity to Star Trek anymore, or that there was much of any even before Discovery started is kind of a fandom myth at this point.

2 hours ago, Maltz said:

I've tried to accept this show, I really have, but they just keep messing things up. The latest blunder is that by 2257, the Klingon Empire already occupies the Organian system. In TOS "Errand of Mercy", the Klingons visit the planet for what is clearly supposed to be the first time; there's never been any major Klingon presence in the region before the episode. I do not see how this can be reconciled.

Where did it say they were occupying Organia?

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18 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

This. I'm also with Vie here.

That there's really any sort of hard and fast continuity to Star Trek anymore, or that there was much of any even before Discovery started is kind of a fandom myth at this point.

Where did it say they were occupying Organia?

I believe it is mentioned in "Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad" and shown on a tactical map in "The War Without, The War Within."

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5 hours ago, Maltz said:

I've tried to accept this show, I really have, but they just keep messing things up. The latest blunder is that by 2257, the Klingon Empire already occupies the Organian system. In TOS "Errand of Mercy", the Klingons visit the planet for what is clearly supposed to be the first time; there's never been any major Klingon presence in the region before the episode. I do not see how this can be reconciled.

Organia is one of the biggest canon violations there is. Organia stopped a war between the Federation and Klingons in its tracks and banned all further wars. Where was Organia when the Borg attacked or during the Dominion war? Organia was in one episode and was never heard from again.  Any war or significant conflict that the Federation got into after this episode was a canon violation. 

The way the episode went is that Organia was shown as a world of small agrarian villages. The kind of people that the Prime Directive is designed to protect. Under Federation law, there should have been no contact between the Federation and the Organians. But the Klingons landed and the Federation landed to try to protect the Organians. The Organians could have stopped the fight at any time but waited till the end of the episode to do so. The impression I got, even as a child, is that the Organians didn't really care about anyone but themselves. They didn't stop outside conflicts until the conflicts started to bother them. If the Organians really intended to stop all wars like they said they did, they would have stopped the Dominion war. 

So what does conquering Organia really mean in Discovery? I think it means that the Klingons noticed that the world had useful mineral deposits so they sent a ship which destroyed the Federation warning buoy that said something like "Pre warp world, keep out by orders of the Federation Council." Then they declared the world was theirs. They didn't send a landing party. They didn't have to fight anyone. The Organians may not have even noticed that there was a Klingon ship in the system. The ship probably went into the system, declared that this system is owned by the Klingons and left. It really doesn't violate canon by itself. 

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33 minutes ago, scenario said:

The impression I got, even as a child, is that the Organians didn't really care about anyone but themselves. They didn't stop outside conflicts until the conflicts started to bother them. If the Organians really intended to stop all wars like they said they did, they would have stopped the Dominion war. 

This.

They didn't care until the Klingons and the Federation brought the war to their door and annoyed them with it.

Some Bird-of-Prey from House D'Ghor flies through to find nothing that matters except one little backwater planet, no other Klingon and certainly no Federation opposition, and the Captain just said, "Ours now."

The entire war is a bigger continuity issue if you want to make it one, than it is how Organia got sort of passed over, given what we know about how the Klingons are fighting the war. 

Klingons don't need it as staging area at this point, so there's no reason to take it. They're racing each other for the biggest trophies.

And, in that respect, Organia ain't no prize.

 

Edited by prometheus59650

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Regarding the Organians, I think they did care about others beside themselves; they rescued Kirk and Spock from Klingon capture, after all, despite knowing they would doubtless resume antagonizing the Klingons on the surface. They could have just stopped all fighting in the vicinity of their homeworld, but instead they manifested their power everywhere, so I reckon they did have an interest in the well-being of the rest of the galaxy.

As for why they never intervened in future conflicts.....perhaps they didn't stick around for very long after Errand of Mercy, and departed for some higher realm, believing (rightly or wrongly) that the lesser species could handle themselves?

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53 minutes ago, Maltz said:

Regarding the Organians, I think they did care about others beside themselves; they rescued Kirk and Spock from Klingon capture, after all, despite knowing they would doubtless resume antagonizing the Klingons on the surface. They could have just stopped all fighting in the vicinity of their homeworld, but instead they manifested their power everywhere, so I reckon they did have an interest in the well-being of the rest of the galaxy.

As for why they never intervened in future conflicts.....perhaps they didn't stick around for very long after Errand of Mercy, and departed for some higher realm, believing (rightly or wrongly) that the lesser species could handle themselves?

They did say they found interference in other’s affairs  “most disgusting” (their words), and that the mere presence of corporeal beings was “intensely painful” to them.  

So, my take is that EoM was a one-off; an action only taken because, as someone noted earlier, the war came to their doorstep.   Otherwise they were probably perfectly content to sit idly by, smile, and go on about their business of being super-energy-beings. 

As for whether they departed our realm or not?  I do remember reading the novelization of The Undiscovered Country many moons ago, and there was something about the Organians mysteriously disappearing right before the events of the story.   So I could definitely buy that; maybe departing this dimension and all of its painful reminders of their past was the last step in their evolution. 

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Honestly, if I were very adamant about Trek canon, I'd have given up on Discovery after seeing the first actual trailer. I get the idea of "alright, this is the final straw", but really, they made it SO different from what we know about the era and the ships right from the start, I would not have been able to sit through it if canon was THAT important to me.

What I would be doing, however, would be to not watch the show but wait how it all unfolds. It IS a serialized show. The episodes don't mean much individually, the overall plot is what is being played here, and if the writers come up with a solid explanation of why everything is so different and goes against established canon at every possible corner, then I can always be in with a "oh cool now I know why things don't fit, now I can watch" attitude and watch the show after all.

On the other hand... Mean Me wants to say "yes, it's time to give up, the show has completely lost its appeal now that Lorca is no longer there"... and I wouldn't even be joking. :P

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Maybe the outlier here but I don't give a damn about supposed "canon".  For me, Discovery is telling a great story with huge twists and surprises and real character development and I'm here to stay.

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1 hour ago, Mutai Sho-Rin said:

Maybe the outlier here but I don't give a damn about supposed "canon".  For me, Discovery is telling a great story with huge twists and surprises and real character development and I'm here to stay.

You're not.

I gave up on any hard and fast marriage to canon long ago because I'd go so crazy trying to reconcile that which will never reconcile at this point, that I could never enjoy Trek again.

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Just enjoy it for what it is, a great story. The whole canon obsession is just too much, it's cult like. It's just a show.

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8 hours ago, Mutai Sho-Rin said:

Maybe the outlier here but I don't give a damn about supposed "canon".  For me, Discovery is telling a great story with huge twists and surprises and real character development and I'm here to stay.

Whether you can enjoy Discovery factors somewhat on how much tolerance you have for departures from canon.  For me, my enjoyment of the show is predicated on a lot of factors.  The solid serialization, twists, and great character development factor more than my concerns over canon.  They are telling a great story.

The scope of the Klingon War is a bit irksome, because stuff like that seems avoidable.  Nonetheless, I am confident that the writers of the show will tie it up in some reasonable fashion.  It might not be what all the fans want by way of explanation, and it might not tie up every loose end.  But I can live with that. 

For instance, I was concerned about Kirk/Spock’s lack of knowledge about the Mirror Universe, but the latest episode provided a reasonable explanation as to why Starfleet would keep it secret.  I found the reason kind of interesting actually and thought it tied nicely with Mirror Lorca jumping universes after his love for Burnham, and Burnham bringing Georgiou into the Prime Universe.  It’s a theme reflected in the DS9 Mirror episodes with Jennifer Sisko as I recall too.  It poses an interesting question of what ifs.  How far would you go to overcome or undo the loss of someone you truly love.  Kinda heartbreaking really since we the viewer know full well how different these people can be.  But is Georgiou evil by nature or nurture? Can that conditioning be undone?

But I digress, Star Trek: Discovery has earned my viewership.  I haven’t enjoyed Star Trek like this since DS9.  Counting the days to Sunday

Edited by Locutus

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This has to be the best first season of Trek since TOS right?

TNG's first season was hit and miss. I love 'Conspiracy' and 'The Neutral Zone', but there was some crap in there like 'Code Of Honor', 'The Naked Now' and 'Justice'.

DS9 had 'Emissary' and 'Duet' which were both great. The majority wasn't however including 'Babel', 'Move Along Home', 'The Storyteller' and 'If Wishes Were Horses'. 

Voyager's first season I'd say is pretty much meh. No great episodes, but plenty of ones I don't like such as 'Ex Post Facto' (which was a copy of TNG's 'A Matter Of Perspective'), 'Prime Factors', 'Cathexis' and 'Jetrel'.

Enterprise Season 1 is again very hit and miss.

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8 hours ago, prometheus59650 said:

You're not.

I gave up on any hard and fast marriage to canon long ago because I'd go so crazy trying to reconcile that which will never reconcile at this point, that I could never enjoy Trek again.

I’m with both of you.

It’s a side-universe to me anyway, so I say bring it on.  Though none of that canon stuff would’ve been an issue if they’d set it after VGR... just saying.  :angel_not:

22 minutes ago, Dillkid said:

This has to be the best first season of Trek since TOS right?

TNG's first season was hit and miss. I love 'Conspiracy' and 'The Neutral Zone', but there was some crap in there like 'Code Of Honor', 'The Naked Now' and 'Justice'.

DS9 had 'Emissary' and 'Duet' which were both great. The majority wasn't however including 'Babel', 'Move Along Home', 'The Storyteller' and 'If Wishes Were Horses'. 

Voyager's first season I'd say is pretty much meh. No great episodes, but plenty of ones I don't like such as 'Ex Post Facto' (which was a copy of TNG's 'A Matter Of Perspective'), 'Prime Factors', 'Cathexis' and 'Jetrel'.

Enterprise Season 1 is again very hit and miss.

You know, you have a point.

I also think 15 episodes is a good sized package for a season; short and sweet. 

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8 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

I’m with both of you.

It’s a side-universe to me anyway, so I say bring it on.  Though none of that canon stuff would’ve been an issue if they’d set it after VGR... just saying.  :angel_not:

You know, you have a point.

I also think 15 episodes is a good sized package for a season; short and sweet. 

Yeah it allows them to not need filler episodes and for the writers not to run out of ideas.

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I find the timing of the giving up to be quite odd. There is one episode left...I guess I should just bow out before they wrap it up...I men if you don't enjoy it don't watch. That is fine, I don't give a tick whether one watches or does not.  But if you gave up after the first two episodes, I could see that.  If you gave it a go to the half way mark and said "I am done" I would get that too.  Even if you thought "One more shot" when it returned from mid-season break and felt it was still not for you and quit I would understand.  But at this point...you've got one hour to go.  Why not just see how they wrap it up. 

The time to give up on Discovery is whenever you feel like it...but I feel like the TIME should have been earlier than this if you don't enjoy it.  You made it so far, maybe you find things hard to reconcile, but why not see if they wrap it up in an interesting way? Maybe one that could reconcile stuff for you.  To be honest as much as I enjoy the show I doubt it will reconcile anything for the fans struggling with canon stuff...but you never know. 

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16 minutes ago, kenman said:

I find the timing of the giving up to be quite odd. There is one episode left...I guess I should just bow out before they wrap it up...I men if you don't enjoy it don't watch. That is fine, I don't give a tick whether one watches or does not.  But if you gave up after the first two episodes, I could see that.  If you gave it a go to the half way mark and said "I am done" I would get that too.  Even if you thought "One more shot" when it returned from mid-season break and felt it was still not for you and quit I would understand.  But at this point...you've got one hour to go.  Why not just see how they wrap it up. 

The time to give up on Discovery is whenever you feel like it...but I feel like the TIME should have been earlier than this if you don't enjoy it.  You made it so far, maybe you find things hard to reconcile, but why not see if they wrap it up in an interesting way? Maybe one that could reconcile stuff for you.  To be honest as much as I enjoy the show I doubt it will reconcile anything for the fans struggling with canon stuff...but you never know. 

^
In for a penny, in for a pound, right?  

I agree that one episode isn’t likely to resolve all (or any) of the canonical violations of the show, but if that’s the fulcrum for one to stick with the show?  Well, to each their own, I suppose.  Canonical violations or not, I’m enjoying the series more on its own merits at this point than how it fits into TOS. 

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2 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

^
In for a penny, in for a pound, right?  

I agree that one episode isn’t likely to resolve all (or any) of the canonical violations of the show, but if that’s the fulcrum for one to stick with the show?  Well, to each their own, I suppose.  Canonical violations or not, I’m enjoying the series more on its own merits at this point than how it fits into TOS. 

I mean I think it's just a weird time to say "is it time to give up on it?" because there's like an episode left.  If you aren't enjoying the series, what would be the point of watching any further (I agree), but if you are unsure as to whether or not you should keep going at this point?  Well it seems seeing how they handle an ending is worth the look.  If they botch it, I would say for those on the fence, don't return next year.  But I have enjoyed enough of this season to give ALL of next year a look in. 

I say that now, but when next year focuses all 13-15 episodes on the Space Hippies from Way to Eden's Origin story I may not make it too far into it. 

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8 minutes ago, kenman said:

I say that now, but when next year focuses all 13-15 episodes on the Space Hippies from Way to Eden's Origin story I may not make it too far into it. 

tumblr_lqffgmWT2x1qj4b9to1_500.gif :giggle:


A very perverse part of me would really love that... :P

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20 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

tumblr_lqffgmWT2x1qj4b9to1_500.gif :giggle:


A very perverse part of me would really love that... :P

Too perverse!

That is one of my least favorite of the entire franchise.

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