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Episode 1.14 “The War Without, The War Within” Discussion Thread

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1 hour ago, Sehlat Vie said:

My blog post on the episode: 

https://musingsofamiddleagedgeek.blog/2018/02/04/star-trek-discovery-s1-14-the-war-without-the-war-within/

Liked it, but there were some really BIG issues...

Your complaints disappear if the Admiral and the whole boarding party were really Mirror agents trying to restart a war (or large border dispute) that had been won by the federation. The admiral and Sarek act out of character for the same reason that Lorca acted out of character. The whole trip to the mirror universe was an invasion plan. The Discovery saw what the emperor wanted them to see at every step while they were in the mirror universe. They had a way to get one or two people at a time over but they needed the Spore drive to transport an army. Keeping the Federation and Klingons at each others throat would make the invasion a lot easier when it came. Lorca was in charge of the Discovery for a long time. The images that they saw in the viewscreen were planted there to be seen. The fake admiral was in the seat controlling the images. 

The plan didn't involve blowing up the capital ship and the emperor coming over personally so they had to improvise. 

Edited by scenario

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3 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

My blog post on the episode: 

https://musingsofamiddleagedgeek.blog/2018/02/04/star-trek-discovery-s1-14-the-war-without-the-war-within/

Liked it, but there were some really BIG issues...

Yes, a fine analysis of some of the issues. I am enjoying the depths of the characters that are on display in this show. I love the working though of conflict within and the compelling grey areas. So plenty of kudos out there. The big things that you mention plus a lot of little things drive me a bit nuts. Perhaps I’m on the spectrum. Is there really a meaningful plan behind the scenes? Look, trivial, I know, but the stardates make my head spin. This can’t be a case of the creators simply not worrying about it and just getting on with the (generally very fine) writing, can it? Now we’re in the 4000s, near the animated series. None of this matters if it’s another universe. And really, who cares? Well, I do for some reason. Sorry for the ramble, but it’s something that could be so easily monitored. No one’s hand seems to be on that particular tiller, or is it some sort of clue to what’s going to happen? 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Hammer said:

I have to agree with your nagging issues.

I found it interesting that they would have a female admiral display these weaknesses. She knew after Lorca pulled a phaser on her that he wasn't really fit for command, but she left him in the chair 'until I get back', which conveniently doesn't happen. Her indecision at Starbase 1 almost got them destroyed.  Giving Georgiou the center seat is one of the wackiest decisions I've seen in an episode of Trek. It's like she was saying 'Here's the keys to the ship that can jump back to your home universe. If you agree to help the Federation, an organization that you view as a great threat to the Terran Empire, maybe we'll give you a lift home. I'm sure you're not going to just go rogue, take over the ship with your command codes and use it to jump back home....'

As for Sarek, yes, something is off about him.  Forced mind melds are an attack, a violation of privacy. This is an inconsistency in character, not just history and tech. Honestly, I think it's a bit sloppy.

As for the Klingon War, something of this scope would have been mentioned on TOS for sure. Something this significant would have been mentioned 80 years later on TNG. No doubt Worf would have brought it up. I understand that they want some creative leeway, but no one forced them to set it pre-TOS or to paint themselves into this corner. This is the downside of having the best of both worlds.

 

My fear is that they’ve backed themselves into a bit of a corner, and the only way out will be some sort of temporal reset button; aka a dramatic cheat.

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Perhaps there a "Commodore Stocker" thing going on with her.

Rose through the ranks on administrative duties over command.

Of course, that doesn't explain why they'd let her "Admiral"  through a war.

Just a random thought.

7 hours ago, scenario said:

Your complaints disappear if the Admiral and the whole boarding party were really Mirror agents trying to restart a war (or large border dispute) that had been won by the federation. The admiral and Sarek act out of character for the same reason that Lorca acted out of character. The whole trip to the mirror universe was an invasion plan. The Discovery saw what the emperor wanted them to see at every step while they were in the mirror universe. They had a way to get one or two people at a time over but they needed the Spore drive to transport an army. Keeping the Federation and Klingons at each others throat would make the invasion a lot easier when it came. Lorca was in charge of the Discovery for a long time. The images that they saw in the viewscreen were planted there to be seen. The fake admiral was in the seat controlling the images. 

The plan didn't involve blowing up the capital ship and the emperor coming over personally so they had to improvise. 

Beats a reset.

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3 hours ago, prometheus59650 said:

Perhaps there a "Commodore Stocker" thing going on with her.

Rose through the ranks on administrative duties over command.

Of course, that doesn't explain why they'd let her "Admiral"  through a war.

Just a random thought.

Good point. 

But after nine months of this, you’d think she’d be a bit battle-hardened by now; and if she were from the mirror-universe, as scenario suggested, she’d be much more savage and aggressive by nature.  She wouldn’t crumble at the sight of death like that.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Good point. 

But after nine months of this, you’d think she’d be a bit battle-hardened by now; and if she were from the mirror-universe, as scenario suggested, she’d be much more savage and aggressive by nature.  She wouldn’t crumble at the sight of death like that.

 

 

Yeah, she was pretty much paralyzed by the destruction of Starbase One.

If there is some grander Mirror plot afoot (and I kind of doubt it) she's not part of it.

Georgiou knew that the plan she gave Burnam was a half-measure, probably because they tried something similar already. Since we know the Klingons are not so utterly crushed by the time TOS rolls around, it's pretty obvious her/Sarek's plan is not carried out, Starfleet settles for the half-measure, and the Klingons simply withdraw.

Or someone is going to lift the plastic guard off of it, and slam the reset button.

Edited by prometheus59650

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3 hours ago, Comiskeybum said:

Or it's not prime universe all along. 

I’m still thinking that the end of the show (or one of the following seasons) will see them winding up in the ‘real’ prime universe.  It’d be kind of a Twilight Zone twist to the show...

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I just had the really bad idea that the entire season is a kobayashi maru test for the entire ship. 

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16 hours ago, scenario said:

Your complaints disappear if the Admiral and the whole boarding party were really Mirror agents trying to restart a war (or large border dispute) that had been won by the federation. The admiral and Sarek act out of character for the same reason that Lorca acted out of character. The whole trip to the mirror universe was an invasion plan. The Discovery saw what the emperor wanted them to see at every step while they were in the mirror universe. They had a way to get one or two people at a time over but they needed the Spore drive to transport an army. Keeping the Federation and Klingons at each others throat would make the invasion a lot easier when it came. Lorca was in charge of the Discovery for a long time. The images that they saw in the viewscreen were planted there to be seen. The fake admiral was in the seat controlling the images. 

The plan didn't involve blowing up the capital ship and the emperor coming over personally so they had to improvise. 

I think the 'one man disguised as another' twist has already been overplayed this season. I don't think they would do it again. MU agents? They don't even know how to make the crossing on their own, they don't have any skin in the game in the Prime universe. They just didn't want the ideas spreading to MU. If they sent over a bunch of Terran ships and troops, no doubt that they would be exposed to Federation ideals. The invasion would be more damaging to the Terrans than the status quo. At least the information was under control. Also, MU Cornwell and co would have needed to hitch a ride on Discovery to get there, so how did they beam onto the bridge? Also, how would MU Cornwell know the ship's security code? They also had Sarek with them and some Andorians. MU Sarek was a rebel, and the Andorians would have no incentive to help their oppressor. 

It's an interesting theory, but I'm not subscribing to it yet. Given the twists we've seen on this show though, it's not that far fetched. It would explain Sarek's forced mind-meld with Saru, but at this point I'm writing that off as sloppy writing.

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2 minutes ago, Hammer said:

I think the 'one man disguised as another' twist has already been overplayed this season. I don't think they would do it again. MU agents? They don't even know how to make the crossing on their own, they don't have any skin in the game in the Prime universe. They just didn't want the ideas spreading to MU. If they sent over a bunch of Terran ships and troops, no doubt that they would be exposed to Federation ideals. The invasion would be more damaging to the Terrans than the status quo. At least the information was under control. Also, MU Cornwell and co would have needed to hitch a ride on Discovery to get there, so how did they beam onto the bridge? Also, how would MU Cornwell know the ship's security code? They also had Sarek with them and some Andorians. MU Sarek was a rebel, and the Andorians would have no incentive to help their oppressor. 

It's an interesting theory, but I'm not subscribing to it yet. Given the twists we've seen on this show though, it's not that far fetched. It would explain Sarek's forced mind-meld with Saru, but at this point I'm writing that off as sloppy writing.

The only way that we know that the Terrans don't know how to get here is because they told us. I really don't trust anything Lorca says. 

They don't necessarily want to live in prime, just loot it. Conquer a planet and use it as a slave world. If a slave talks, shoot them. MU people who come over know its a one way trip. A dirt poor farmer can go over to Prime and in a few years get their own home equipped with a dozen slaves and all the luxuries you can think of if you just stay loyal. Why not?  If they prove their loyalty, they might be allowed to go back home in twenty years or so, very very rich. 

MU Sarek was with the rebels. Maybe he was a rebel or maybe a MU spy sent to gather information. They had gathered all the information they needed from this group and used its destruction as a tool. Who cares if you kill a thousand rebels to make a point. Just beam out Sarek and a few other MU agents before you bomb the place.  When it comes to Andorians helping their oppressors, there are always a few people willing to help their oppressors. 

Mirror Cornwell replaced Prime Cornwell after Sarek extracted all of the key codes from Prime Cornwell. Any sort of voice code or DNA code would work as well for Mirror Cornwell as Prime Cornwell. 

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did sarak make a deal with Georgiou for the Vulcans to stage a coup and take control of Starfleet and the federation?he like burnham said he was acting stranging towards her just before leaving discovery

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27 minutes ago, mr Pointy Ears said:

did sarak make a deal with Georgiou for the Vulcans to stage a coup and take control of Starfleet and the federation?he like burnham said he was acting stranging towards her just before leaving discovery

No.

Georgiou told him that the "attack all the installations on the homeworld" strategy wasn't going to work. They'd just be back. She told Sarek how to crush them, and it looks like Sarek is planning to get it done.

Burnam will no doubt have a problem with the whole genocide thing.

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1 hour ago, Hammer said:

I think the 'one man disguised as another' twist has already been overplayed this season. I don't think they would do it again. MU agents? They don't even know how to make the crossing on their own, they don't have any skin in the game in the Prime universe. They just didn't want the ideas spreading to MU. If they sent over a bunch of Terran ships and troops, no doubt that they would be exposed to Federation ideals. The invasion would be more damaging to the Terrans than the status quo. At least the information was under control. Also, MU Cornwell and co would have needed to hitch a ride on Discovery to get there, so how did they beam onto the bridge? Also, how would MU Cornwell know the ship's security code? They also had Sarek with them and some Andorians. MU Sarek was a rebel, and the Andorians would have no incentive to help their oppressor. 

It's an interesting theory, but I'm not subscribing to it yet. Given the twists we've seen on this show though, it's not that far fetched. It would explain Sarek's forced mind-meld with Saru, but at this point I'm writing that off as sloppy writing.

I agree.
The MU arc is pretty much finished, save for Georgiou.  

Having the Admiral and her boarding party ALL be MU agents is one trip to the well too many, IMO.

And Cornwell simply doesn’t act mirror-ish enough to convince me (or anyone).   Not to mention that in her private conversations with Sarek didn’t seem conspiratorial enough.

This is one theory I just don’t buy.  Not saying it isn’t possible or true, but I’d be hyper-disappointed if it were. 

And yes, Sarek was out of character (as I noted in my blog too; that really perturbed me), and his mirror-version was nearly identical to his prime self, but again; I don’t buy it.  

 

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I'm kind of grasping at straws here. Either the writers have said, we no longer give a damn about the main timeline or there is some kind of trick.

1) This isn't Prime but they'll show it in the last episode of the season. 

2) They're going to do a reset at the end of the season.

3) This is all some sort of trick, by the Mirror Universe or the Klingons

4) Something we haven't figured out yet.

5) Something totally out of left field that a few fans would like and most hate. Q shows up or something. 

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I'm happy we were back in the normal universe as I had my fill of the mirror episodes. It seems a bit bizzare to give a ruthless leader of an empire a Starfleet commision and to make her a captain as well, just because she knows how to defeat Klingons. Surely she could just be an advisor or something? I am enjoying the series though.

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29 minutes ago, Dillkid said:

I'm happy we were back in the normal universe as I had my fill of the mirror episodes. It seems a bit bizzare to give a ruthless leader of an empire a Starfleet commision and to make her a captain as well, just because she knows how to defeat Klingons. Surely she could just be an advisor or something? I am enjoying the series though.

Georgiou wanted her freedom, but Cornwell wanted to keep the MU hush hush. The only way for Georgiou to walk around free was to assume Prime Georgiou's identity. How else would she explain why she looks exactly like her? They gave her her freedom, which meant putting her back in the chair. I get the logic behind what happened, I just don't agree with the decision.

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Just now, Hammer said:

Georgiou wanted her freedom, but Cornwell wanted to keep the MU hush hush. The only way for Georgiou to walk around free was to assume Prime Georgiou's identity. How else would she explain why she looks exactly like her? They gave her her freedom, which meant putting her back in the chair. I get the logic behind what happened, I just don't agree with the decision.

Easy, she had a long lost identical twin that absolutley is not a mirror universe version of Captain Georgiou.

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8 minutes ago, Dillkid said:

Easy, she had a long lost identical twin that absolutley is not a mirror universe version of Captain Georgiou.

Everyone on board had just been to the MU and the crew were wearing Terran insignia. I'm not sure how this ruse was going to work in the first place. 

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21 hours ago, scenario said:

I'm kind of grasping at straws here. Either the writers have said, we no longer give a damn about the main timeline or there is some kind of trick.

1) This isn't Prime but they'll show it in the last episode of the season. 

2) They're going to do a reset at the end of the season.

3) This is all some sort of trick, by the Mirror Universe or the Klingons

4) Something we haven't figured out yet.

5) Something totally out of left field that a few fans would like and most hate. Q shows up or something. 

Any one of these, or even some combination of them are possible; except for 3.  That card’s been played quite enough at this point.

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1 minute ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Any one of these, or even some combination of them are possible; except for 3.  That card’s been played quite enough at this point.

If Star Trek stopped doing plots that have been beaten to death, you'd have to eliminate about 1/3 of the episodes after season 1 of TOS.

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21 minutes ago, scenario said:

If Star Trek stopped doing plots that have been beaten to death, you'd have to eliminate about 1/3 of the episodes after season 1 of TOS.

Good point. :laugh:

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On 2/5/2018 at 9:15 AM, Sehlat Vie said:

My fear is that they’ve backed themselves into a bit of a corner, and the only way out will be some sort of temporal reset button; aka a dramatic cheat.

These writers clearly don't act like they are afraid of being backed into corners. They keep getting out of their corners only to find deeper ones. This has made this show so much fun to watch. But the game is up in one more episode--and I'm confident they will pull it off.

After this episode, I no longer think there will be a time travel reset. They seem to be invested in finishing the Klingon war with a good old fashion fire fight, no temporal cheating. I'm one fan who doesn't think the war as depicted needs to be erased from the timeline because I don't think it contradicts canon. And the plan they've developed sounds a lot more interesting than going back in time and taking out Tkuvmas' one ship. 

The one thing I can't figure out is what happens with the characters in season 2. Burnham and Tyler would seem to have no right to be on the ship after the war is over. Will we get a more traditional reset button moment with Starfleet orders saying their ranks can return to normal? That's just as bad of a reset as time travel, but I'd take it if it keeps Burnham and Tyler on the DISCO.       

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2 minutes ago, Justin Snead said:

These writers clearly don't act like they are afraid of being backed into corners. They keep getting out of their corners only to find deeper ones. This has made this show so much fun to watch. But the game is up in one more episode--and I'm confident they will pull it off.

I’m still cautiously optimistic.  

And I still feel as though this riding roughshod over continuity would’ve worked a lot better post-VGR and not with another pre-TOS prequel. 

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8 minutes ago, Justin Snead said:

These writers clearly don't act like they are afraid of being backed into corners. They keep getting out of their corners only to find deeper ones. This has made this show so much fun to watch. But the game is up in one more episode--and I'm confident they will pull it off.

After this episode, I no longer think there will be a time travel reset. They seem to be invested in finishing the Klingon war with a good old fashion fire fight, no temporal cheating. I'm one fan who doesn't think the war as depicted needs to be erased from the timeline because I don't think it contradicts canon. And the plan they've developed sounds a lot more interesting than going back in time and taking out Tkuvmas' one ship. 

The one thing I can't figure out is what happens with the characters in season 2. Burnham and Tyler would seem to have no right to be on the ship after the war is over. Will we get a more traditional reset button moment with Starfleet orders saying their ranks can return to normal? That's just as bad of a reset as time travel, but I'd take it if it keeps Burnham and Tyler on the DISCO.       

The only way I can figure it is that Burnham and Tyler figure out a way to end the war without toasting an inhabited world. Star Fleet really doesn't want it to get out that their orders ordered the crew of the Discovery to watch a world burn. It would be simpler for starfleet to pin a medal on them and then send the ship out to the middle of nowhere exploring. Out of sight, out of mind.

Realistically, Burnham and Tyler would be at the bottom of the list. Burnham a specialist who only gets to be on the bridge when her specialty is called for. And Tyler doing the equivalent of sweeping the floor until he's gone through a ton of testing and not getting a rank until a year or two have passed. 

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