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prometheus59650

Episode 1.14 “The War Without, The War Within” Discussion Thread

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From a commercial preview:

 

The Federation is 20% occupied and has lost 1/3rd of its fleet. It is not as bad off as that war map from the previous episode led us to believe.  For some reason, the Sarek and Cornwell take advice from Emperor Georgiou.

With only two episodes left in the season, and with the Klingon War supposedly wrapping with Season 1, there isn't much time to resolve this.

Edited by Hammer

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For some reason?

I dunno, if I were in the middle of a war that I was losing hard and I was across the table from a person who, in her universe, had crushed that same enemy, I'd at least hear them out.

Edited by prometheus59650

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3 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

For some reason?

I dunno, if I were in the middle of a war that I was losing hard and I was across the table from a person who, in her universe, had crushed that same enemy, I'd at least hear them out.

I thought that she would be treated more like a war criminal. I guess we'll see tomorrow.

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11 minutes ago, Hammer said:

I thought that she would be treated more like a war criminal. I guess we'll see tomorrow.

She probably will be and they may well not take her advice, but there's no way they don't hear her out.

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1 minute ago, prometheus59650 said:

She probably will be and they may well not take her advice, but there's no way they don't hear her out.

I'm sure that Picard wouldn't have given her the time of day, but that's just him. Janeway and Sisko probably would have listened. I'm not sure about Kirk or Archer.

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5 minutes ago, Hammer said:

I'm not sure about Kirk or Archer.

I expect both would. Kirk had no love for Klingons, and Archer's the guy who pretty much did whatever had to be done against the Xindi.

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41 minutes ago, Hammer said:

I'm sure that Picard wouldn't have given her the time of day, but that's just him. Janeway and Sisko probably would have listened. I'm not sure about Kirk or Archer.

Who says Jean-Luc wouldn’t at least listen? He probably wouldn’t TAKE her advice (depends on what kind of advice it is tho), but if he’s in a war against the Klingons and he’s losing he would very well be aware of the fact that he can’t afford to put his fingers into his ears and go “la la la” just because the lady in front of him comes from a universe in which Terrans habe enslaved everyone and he disagrees with that. On the contrary - I would suspect he would take that fact into account, he would know it’s not “his” Philippa Georgiou, but he would suspect that she’s as cunning as the Philippa Georgiou he knew - he would maintain a strong distance but if she told him “I know how to defeat the enemy you’re fighting”, he would at least listen and then maybe modify her idea in some way so that it fits both into what he is comfortable with AND into what has to be done to win the war. THAT is him.

 

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1 hour ago, Mr.Picard said:

Who says Jean-Luc wouldn’t at least listen? He probably wouldn’t TAKE her advice (depends on what kind of advice it is tho), but if he’s in a war against the Klingons and he’s losing he would very well be aware of the fact that he can’t afford to put his fingers into his ears and go “la la la” just because the lady in front of him comes from a universe in which Terrans habe enslaved everyone and he disagrees with that. On the contrary - I would suspect he would take that fact into account, he would know it’s not “his” Philippa Georgiou, but he would suspect that she’s as cunning as the Philippa Georgiou he knew - he would maintain a strong distance but if she told him “I know how to defeat the enemy you’re fighting”, he would at least listen and then maybe modify her idea in some way so that it fits both into what he is comfortable with AND into what has to be done to win the war. THAT is him.

 

This

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9 hours ago, prometheus59650 said:

For some reason?

I dunno, if I were in the middle of a war that I was losing hard and I was across the table from a person who, in her universe, had crushed that same enemy, I'd at least hear them out.

Kind of what I’m thinking.  Obviously in-the-box thinking didn’t cut the mustard. 

8 hours ago, Mr.Picard said:

Who says Jean-Luc wouldn’t at least listen? He probably wouldn’t TAKE her advice (depends on what kind of advice it is tho), but if he’s in a war against the Klingons and he’s losing he would very well be aware of the fact that he can’t afford to put his fingers into his ears and go “la la la” just because the lady in front of him comes from a universe in which Terrans habe enslaved everyone and he disagrees with that. On the contrary - I would suspect he would take that fact into account, he would know it’s not “his” Philippa Georgiou, but he would suspect that she’s as cunning as the Philippa Georgiou he knew - he would maintain a strong distance but if she told him “I know how to defeat the enemy you’re fighting”, he would at least listen and then maybe modify her idea in some way so that it fits both into what he is comfortable with AND into what has to be done to win the war. THAT is him.

Picard is also the leader who forged a friendship with the Starfleet pariah Ensign Ro (granted, Guinan had a hand in that, but the point is that he listened to her).   It’s very much in character that Picard would bet on the dark horse.  

And based on the fact that Emperor Georgiou helped save Burnham’s butt in a mutually beneficial alliance?  I think Cornwall and the rest of Starfleet’s admiralty would be wise to hear her out. 

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9 hours ago, Mr.Picard said:

Who says Jean-Luc wouldn’t at least listen? He probably wouldn’t TAKE her advice (depends on what kind of advice it is tho), but if he’s in a war against the Klingons and he’s losing he would very well be aware of the fact that he can’t afford to put his fingers into his ears and go “la la la” just because the lady in front of him comes from a universe in which Terrans habe enslaved everyone and he disagrees with that. On the contrary - I would suspect he would take that fact into account, he would know it’s not “his” Philippa Georgiou, but he would suspect that she’s as cunning as the Philippa Georgiou he knew - he would maintain a strong distance but if she told him “I know how to defeat the enemy you’re fighting”, he would at least listen and then maybe modify her idea in some way so that it fits both into what he is comfortable with AND into what has to be done to win the war. THAT is him.

 

I think he would treat her like a murderer and a war criminal. He knows how her kind operates, I doubt there is much that he needs to hear from her. He doesn't suspend Starfleet principles for a short term tactical gain and he'd be appalled an anyone who did. We just saw her murder a room full of her underlings last episode, do you think that Picard would overlook that? She'd be locked up in the brig. Remember, she just went on a rant about how the Federation's ideals were a threat, why would Picard have any reason to believe a word she says? As far as he would be concerned, she wants to sabotage the Federation.

1 hour ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Kind of what I’m thinking.  Obviously in-the-box thinking didn’t cut the mustard. 

Picard is also the leader who forged a friendship with the Starfleet pariah Ensign Ro (granted, Guinan had a hand in that, but the point is that he listened to her).   It’s very much in character that Picard would bet on the dark horse.  

And based on the fact that Emperor Georgiou helped save Burnham’s butt in a mutually beneficial alliance?  I think Cornwall and the rest of Starfleet’s admiralty would be wise to hear her out. 

The two are hardly in the same ballpark. Georgiou is pure evil, a murderer and a war criminal. Ensign Ro was a resistance fighter who killed out of necessity. Also, what does she have to say about a universe about which she's only read files from the Defiant? What works in MU isn't necessarily going to work here. Even the players are different. 

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10 hours ago, Mr.Picard said:

Who says Jean-Luc wouldn’t at least listen? He probably wouldn’t TAKE her advice (depends on what kind of advice it is tho), but if he’s in a war against the Klingons and he’s losing he would very well be aware of the fact that he can’t afford to put his fingers into his ears and go “la la la” just because the lady in front of him comes from a universe in which Terrans habe enslaved everyone and he disagrees with that. On the contrary - I would suspect he would take that fact into account, he would know it’s not “his” Philippa Georgiou, but he would suspect that she’s as cunning as the Philippa Georgiou he knew - he would maintain a strong distance but if she told him “I know how to defeat the enemy you’re fighting”, he would at least listen and then maybe modify her idea in some way so that it fits both into what he is comfortable with AND into what has to be done to win the war. THAT is him.

 

I'll buy that.

This is a guy that was convinced sending the Enterprise-C back was a good idea. Yes, in that universe, Picard still had a deep relationship with Guinan to draw from, but it's still a crazy notion:

"This is all wrong."

"Why?"

"I don't know. It just is. Send the ship back."

"Why?"

"None of this is supposed to be happening."

"How do you know?"

"I just do. Send the ship back. Trust me."

"Okay."

That's sort of insane on its face.

I believe that Picard would probably hear out Georgiou simply because he's intelligent enough to know he's on the wrong end of the war and if she can end the war and stop the loss of life, it's worth it.

Now, he might be appalled, and might be so disgusted that he would never do as she suggests....but the suggestions might plant the idea of an alternate path forward.

It'd be particularly arrogant to tune out someone...ANYONE that might be able to help him. Picard never struck me as arrogant.

Especially when all he's being asked to do at that point is listen to her.

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1 hour ago, Hammer said:

The two are hardly in the same ballpark. Georgiou is pure evil, a murderer and a war criminal. 

She's not pure evil. No one's pure anything. She loved her Michael. She was honestly hurt that her Michael betrayed her. 

1 hour ago, Hammer said:

Ensign Ro was a resistance fighter who killed out of necessity.

And because she liked it. You can't tell me that on some level she didn't like it. On some level Kira liked it.They did because basically human. Sure, they were driven to it by people invading their home and subjugating their people...and they were able to let go, move on, and feel some regret so it wasn't pure sociopathy.

But you cannot tell me that when they watched their target blow up, collateral damage or not, they didn't honestly LIKE it because the $%^@*&s that deserved it were being made to suffer and PAY.

On some level, driven to it or not, they liked killing.

As for whatever idea Georgiou has, think of it this way:

(Species 8472 mowing down everything in their path)

"In my universe , they came, too. We wiped them out of our galaxy. Then we went to fluidic space and wiped them out there, too."

(gasp) "Genocide?"

"Every last one of them. They invaded US. They deserved no mercy and we gave them none."

"How did you do it?"

"Nanoprobe torpedoes"

(Everyone looks at each other) "Could work. Maybe if we had enough of these things to hurt them...show them we CAN put an end to this once and for all, they'll stop. They'll leave"

***

So they've taken her idea, stopped the war,  but stopped short of the brutality Georgiou had no problem with.

1 hour ago, Hammer said:

Even the players are different. 

Her Klingons seem pretty similar to me.  

Edited by prometheus59650

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6 hours ago, Hammer said:

I think he would treat her like a murderer and a war criminal. He knows how her kind operates, I doubt there is much that he needs to hear from her. He doesn't suspend Starfleet principles for a short term tactical gain and he'd be appalled an anyone who did. We just saw her murder a room full of her underlings last episode, do you think that Picard would overlook that? She'd be locked up in the brig. Remember, she just went on a rant about how the Federation's ideals were a threat, why would Picard have any reason to believe a word she says? As far as he would be concerned, she wants to sabotage the Federation.

Technically speaking, Georgiou didn’t commit even ONE crime in the Prime Universe (or whichever universe you want to place the actual Discovery in). She committed those “crimes” (ARE they even crimes by MU standards?) in HER universe that folllows its own rules, as appalling as those rules might seem. Jean-Luc would realize that. 

And it IS possible to talk to (and listen to) someone who’s in the brig. He WOULD put her in there, no doubt - he would realize how dangerous she is and that it’s probably unwise to invite her over for a cozy cup of Earl Grey - but if she made it clear that she needs to speak with him? He would go and listen to what she has to say. Jean-Luc, of all people, is a man who is willing to listen. I’m not saying he’d follow her advice. I’m just saying he would listen. Through a force field in the brig, most likely, but he would listen. 

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It's weird to see an episode without Lorca. I still think that the prime reality Lorca will show up, eventually. Or even a return of the mirror Lorca. It's sad to see Saru lose command of the Discovery, already, but I hope that he gets it back. It's nice to get a reference to Jonathan Archer and his Enterprise. Great episode.

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11 minutes ago, Enterprise Discovery said:

It's weird to see an episode without Lorca. I still think that the prime reality Lorca will show up, eventually. Or even a return of the mirror Lorca. It's sad to see Saru lose command of the Discovery, already, but I hope that he gets it back. It's nice to get a reference to Jonathan Archer and his Enterprise. Great episode.

Well Prime Lorca was mentioned by the Admiral, so maybe what happened to him will be addressed. Unbelievable that they would put the Emperor in the Captain's chair. She has what she needs to jump home now. Also, who on board was going to believe that prime Georgiou had be rescued? This episode seemed to be more about tying up character stuff before the season finale, which will be too packed to deal with Ash's inner conflict and regrets. With serialization, we are going to see 'breather' episodes like this every once in a while. Too bad we didn't hear more about how the MU Discovery got destroyed. Was Killy trying to help?

Edited by Hammer

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1 hour ago, Hammer said:

Well Prime Lorca was mentioned by the Admiral, so maybe what happened to him will be addressed. Unbelievable that they would put the Emperor in the Captain's chair. She has what she needs to jump home now. Also, who on board was going to believe that prime Georgiou had be rescued? This episode seemed to be more about tying up character stuff before the season finale, which will be too packed to deal with Ash's inner conflict and regrets. With serialization, we are going to see 'breather' episodes like this every once in a while. Too bad we didn't hear more about how the MU Discovery got destroyed. Was Killy trying to help?

It's been an interesting season and it's difficult to tell where the season finale will go. It's going to be a long wait to Season 2.

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One hypothesis. The admiral was a Mirror Universe Spy. Everything that happened since they got back is a Mirror universe plan to restart a war that ended shortly after the Discovery left. The war was really nothing more than the biggest border skirmish out of many. 

Alternate. Substitute Klingon spy for Mirror Universe Spy.  

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5 minutes ago, scenario said:

One hypothesis. The admiral was a Mirror Universe Spy. Everything that happened since they got back is a Mirror universe plan to restart a war that ended shortly after the Discovery left. The war was really nothing more than the biggest border skirmish out of many. 

Alternate. Substitute Klingon spy for Mirror Universe Spy.  

What evidence is this hypothesis based on?

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Ugh. Why couldn't that have been Tpol or Archer making the epic appearance at the end? Especially after the NX-01 history lesson. 

I want a cool moment!

Edited by Comiskeybum

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8 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

What evidence is this hypothesis based on?

Not much. The last time we saw the admiral was when she came out of a klingon prison paralyzed from the waist down. Now she looks fine. The first thing she does is ask for Lorca. When we last saw her Lorca was a hero, of sorts. The admiral puts the emperor back in the captain's chair.  

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While putting Emperor Georgiou in the captain’s chair is incredibly fun, and it is nice to have Michelle Yeoh back.  COME ON!  It’s pretty unbelievable.  Still, should be an interesting season finale.

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28 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

My blog post on the episode: 

https://musingsofamiddleagedgeek.blog/2018/02/04/star-trek-discovery-s1-14-the-war-without-the-war-within/

Liked it, but there were some really BIG issues...

I have to agree with your nagging issues.

I found it interesting that they would have a female admiral display these weaknesses. She knew after Lorca pulled a phaser on her that he wasn't really fit for command, but she left him in the chair 'until I get back', which conveniently doesn't happen. Her indecision at Starbase 1 almost got them destroyed.  Giving Georgiou the center seat is one of the wackiest decisions I've seen in an episode of Trek. It's like she was saying 'Here's the keys to the ship that can jump back to your home universe. If you agree to help the Federation, an organization that you view as a great threat to the Terran Empire, maybe we'll give you a lift home. I'm sure you're not going to just go rogue, take over the ship with your command codes and use it to jump back home....'

As for Sarek, yes, something is off about him.  Forced mind melds are an attack, a violation of privacy. This is an inconsistency in character, not just history and tech. Honestly, I think it's a bit sloppy.

As for the Klingon War, something of this scope would have been mentioned on TOS for sure. Something this significant would have been mentioned 80 years later on TNG. No doubt Worf would have brought it up. I understand that they want some creative leeway, but no one forced them to set it pre-TOS or to paint themselves into this corner. This is the downside of having the best of both worlds.

 

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