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prometheus59650

Episode 1.13 "What's Past is Prologue" Discussion Thread

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7 hours ago, scenario said:

Setting this show in a closely associated timeline would solve all sorts of issues. 

I agree, that’s why I choose to head-canon it that way...:laugh:

7 hours ago, Mr.Picard said:

*gets distracted by Lorca’s presence* 

Chairs..? Oh right, the chairs.

:giggle:

7 hours ago, Mr.Picard said:

Mean Me wants to say “No way this show’s ever gonna fit into the Prime Timeline, if the fans start to abandon it once they realize there is no actual plan to make it fit into the promised timeline it’s gonna be CBS’ own fault for setting it before TOS and claiming over and over again that this is the same era as Pike’s printed memos” but Nice Me says “whatever, they had Gabriel Lorca, that alone was worth it” :P 

That alone forgives any and all continuity sins, right? :P

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, scenario said:

I don't care about the cosmetic changes, like the chairs. The cosmetic changes are like the differences between a stage show and a movie. 

If someone puts on Hamlet as a High School play with a budget of a few hundred dollars and someone else puts on Hamlet as a movie with a budget of a few million dollars, they're still the same play. But if someone tries to modernize it and starts changing the dialog and storyline to make it more accessible to modern audiences, at some point it stops being Hamlet and starts being a play based on Hamlet. 

The new look Klingons and ships are like the high school play version vs the much bigger money movie version. But when you add a major war and new technology its becoming based on the prime timeline instead of the timeline. ST established multiple timelines with Mirror Mirror 50 years ago. Setting this show in a closely associated timeline would solve all sorts of issues. 

Agreed on the props, when I watch a play I suspend disbelief on the realism of the props. My beef isn't that Discovery looks decades more advanced than Kirk's Enterprise, it's that the tech itself doesn't line up with the original. Sure, setting it in another reality would cancel out these concerns, but it would also mean that I'm not really watching my Star Trek, it's just inspired by it. It would be a clone, and would mean that 4 of the 5 previous series didn't really happen. I don't want Discovery to push the reset button on TNG, TOS, DS9 and Voy. I don't want the tech to be reset either. The tech was a good idea, however, setting this show 10 years before TOS made no sense.

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I don’t really buy the argument that if it is in a new reality, that the old version didn’t happen. A new reality doesn’t negate the old one. It just runs concurrent to the original timeline. And since it doesn’t erase the tapes of the shows frome existence...I can still watch my old Trek. Heck I started rewatching DS9 this week. It is still there! 

But I agree, it really made no sense to go prior to TOS (again). There is no narrative reason for it....though I suppose an adventure into the Mirror and evil Terrans needs to be set prior to the DS9 changeover. As disappointed as I was with Fuller leaving, I have gotten the sense that this was HIS idea, and the current team seem like they might have been stuck with it post-shake up.

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15 minutes ago, kenman said:

I don’t really buy the argument that if it is in a new reality, that the old version didn’t happen. A new reality doesn’t negate the old one. It just runs concurrent to the original timeline. And since it doesn’t erase the tapes of the shows frome existence...I can still watch my old Trek. Heck I started rewatching DS9 this week. It is still there! 

2

This

 

16 minutes ago, kenman said:

As disappointed as I was with Fuller leaving, I have gotten the sense that this was HIS idea, and the current team seem like they might have been stuck with it post-shake up.

1

And this. I think he left as the season was just being written and it was either work with what was already broken down or ask for another delay, that I doubt CBS would have been inclined to give after already yielding twice.

 

 

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47 minutes ago, kenman said:

I don’t really buy the argument that if it is in a new reality, that the old version didn’t happen. A new reality doesn’t negate the old one. It just runs concurrent to the original timeline. And since it doesn’t erase the tapes of the shows frome existence...I can still watch my old Trek. Heck I started rewatching DS9 this week. It is still there! 

But I agree, it really made no sense to go prior to TOS (again). There is no narrative reason for it....though I suppose an adventure into the Mirror and evil Terrans needs to be set prior to the DS9 changeover. As disappointed as I was with Fuller leaving, I have gotten the sense that this was HIS idea, and the current team seem like they might have been stuck with it post-shake up.

Obviously the shows happened, what I'm saying is that Discovery is not going to lead into TOS, TNG, DS9 or Voy because of the inconsistencies. If it does, it will come with a giant reset button. Sure, another timeline is possible, but it's not what I wanted. I wanted to continue on with the Universe that I spent 28 seasons watching. We already have a movie reboot, did we really need to overwrite Prime too?

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TOS didn't even lead to TNG, DS9 and Voyager.

TNG, DS9 and VOY...they are a coherent timeline.

But they didn't come from TOS.

 

The Trekverse has been splintered largely since TNG showed up.

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1 hour ago, kenman said:

I don’t really buy the argument that if it is in a new reality, that the old version didn’t happen. A new reality doesn’t negate the old one. It just runs concurrent to the original timeline. And since it doesn’t erase the tapes of the shows frome existence...I can still watch my old Trek. Heck I started rewatching DS9 this week. It is still there! 

But I agree, it really made no sense to go prior to TOS (again). There is no narrative reason for it....though I suppose an adventure into the Mirror and evil Terrans needs to be set prior to the DS9 changeover. As disappointed as I was with Fuller leaving, I have gotten the sense that this was HIS idea, and the current team seem like they might have been stuck with it post-shake up.

^
Every bit of this...

34 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

TOS didn't even lead to TNG, DS9 and Voyager.

TNG, DS9 and VOY...they are a coherent timeline.

But they didn't come from TOS.

 

The Trekverse has been splintered largely since TNG showed up.

^
Pretty much agree on this as well; although TNG and DS9 made much bolder attempts to embrace their creakier, wobblier ’60s lineage (“Relics” “Trials and Tribble-ations”).

 

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56 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

TOS didn't even lead to TNG, DS9 and Voyager.

TNG, DS9 and VOY...they are a coherent timeline.

But they didn't come from TOS.

 

The Trekverse has been splintered largely since TNG showed up.

I disagree.  While TNG updated the look and feel of the Star Trek universe to make it accessible to modern audiences, the major events do not conflict much with TOS.  The timeline is by and large coherent through TOS, TNG, DS9, and VOY.

Star Trek: Enterprise did more to splinter the timeline.  It depicted major historic events that conflicted with the established timeline like first contact with the Klingons, the NX-01 being the first Starfleet vessel to bear the name Enterprise, Romulan cloaking devices, the first encounter with the Borg, arguably the first encounter with the Ferengi, arguably the Xindi War.  There are smaller technology-related continuity errors like phase cannons versus lasers or photonic torpedos versus atomic weapons or visual communication versus audio-only prior to the Romulan War, although these are not that big to me as compared with the major ones listed above.

Edited by Locutus

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19 minutes ago, Locutus said:

I disagree.  While TNG updated the look and feel of the Star Trek universe to make it accessible to modern audiences, the major events do not conflict much with TOS.  The timeline is by and large coherent through TOS, TNG, DS9, and VOY.

Star Trek: Enterprise did more to splinter the timeline.  It depicted major historic events that conflicted with the established timeline like first contact with the Klingons, the NX-01 being the first Starfleet vessel to bear the name Enterprise, Romulan cloaking devices, the first encounter with the Borg, arguably the first encounter with the Ferengi, arguably the Xindi War.  There are smaller technology-related continuity errors like phase cannons versus lasers or photonic torpedos versus atomic weapons or visual communication versus audio-only prior to the Romulan War, although these are not that big to me as compared with the major ones listed above.

3

There are other examples, but:

- The Eugenics Wars never happened.

- In Picard's universe, Kirk's Enterprise specifically never encountered the space amoeba.

 

I give them credit for them trying to make things line up. They still don't. 

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3 hours ago, prometheus59650 said:

There are other examples, but:

- The Eugenics Wars never happened.

- In Picard's universe, Kirk's Enterprise specifically never encountered the space amoeba.

 

I give them credit for them trying to make things line up. They still don't. 

Doesn’t Picard reference Khan’s dictatorship to Berlinghoff Rasmussen?

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11 minutes ago, Yorick said:

Doesn’t Picard reference Khan’s dictatorship to Berlinghoff Rasmussen?

He did.

But in that case, either Khan made his bloodthirsty name in some other way for Picard, OR Voyager takes place in an alternate timeline from either of them because Janeway and crew beam down to Venice Beach, with Chakotay remarking that they aren't in the middle of a war and they should be.

One of those timelines isn't the TOS timeline. Perhaps both are not.

But there's really no such thing as actual continuity in Star Trek.

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17 hours ago, prometheus59650 said:

He did.

But in that case, either Khan made his bloodthirsty name in some other way for Picard, OR Voyager takes place in an alternate timeline from either of them because Janeway and crew beam down to Venice Beach, with Chakotay remarking that they aren't in the middle of a war and they should be.

One of those timelines isn't the TOS timeline. Perhaps both are not.

But there's really no such thing as actual continuity in Star Trek.

There are commonalities, connections and a few references but a perfect through-and-through timeline?  Not so much.   It just doesn’t line up.

There was an episode of DS9 where the admiral (“Doctor Bashir, I Presume...”) said that the Eugenics Wars happened ‘200 years ago’ (which puts it in the 22nd century, not the 20th); continuity is all over the map sometimes, depending on which Star Trek you’re watching at any given moment.  

Even TOS’ “Squire of Gothos" had Kirk telling Trelane that 17th/18th century Earth was “900 years ago” (!?), which would make Kirk’s era the 27th century, at the very least.  

 

DSC is just another side pocket of the greater ST multiverse; some events will be concurrent and other’s won’t.   To quote the sheep in “Babe”, “That’s just the way it is...” 

 

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14 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

There are commonalities, connections and a few references but a perfect through-and-through timeline?  Not so much.   It just doesn’t line up.

There was an episode of DS9 where the admiral (“Doctor Bashir, I Presume...”) said that the Eugenics Wars happened ‘200 years ago’ (which puts it in the 22nd century, not the 20th); continuity is all over the map sometimes, depending on which Star Trek you’re watching at any given moment.  

Even TOS’ “Squire of Gothos" had Kirk telling Trelane that 17th/18th century Earth was “900 years ago” (!?), which would make Kirk’s era the 27th century, at the very least.  

 

DSC is just another side pocket of the greater ST multiverse; some events will be concurrent and other’s won’t.   To quote the sheep in “Babe”, “That’s just the way it is...” 

 

I think that, beyond winks and nods to the big events as fanservice TPTB gave up the notion of continuity as a hard and fast thing very early on.

 

There's just so much of it.

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On 1/29/2018 at 12:33 PM, prometheus59650 said:

Yeoh is godly. Even Issacs was awed by her, equating his own work on the fight scenes to that of a drunken hippo by comparison. But, damn, it looks like she hasn't lost a step in 30 years.

She's beyond impressive!

Isaacs has a record of being extremely generous to his co-stars.  Not to take anything away from Michelle Yeoh, who IS remarkable, but that "drunken hippo" thing is vintage Isaacs.

I saw a video of an interview that a bunch of the Harry Potter cast did where they were asked what their favorite line was that their character had said in any of the HP films.  Some of the actors just mentioned the line, and some milked the question for all it was worth, prolonging their moment in the sun for as long as possible.  Only Isaacs deflected the question to talk about how great some OTHER actor was.

I'm paraphrasing, but this is fairly close to what he said.  He said, "Daniel Radcliffe [Harry Potter] and I were filming a scene, and it didn't feel quite right.  I told the director I thought it was off because we needed exit lines, and he said, 'Well, go ahead and make something up,' then turned to Daniel and told him that I'd be making up a new line for Lucius, and Daniel should answer the line as he thinks Harry would.  So I said something like, 'Well, Potter, you win this time, but your little friends might not be so lucky next time, without you there to protect them.'  And Daniel puffed out his 12-year-old chest, glared at me, and said, 'Don't worry, Mr. Malfoy, because I WILL be there to protect them; I'll ALWAYS be there!'  And I was amazed that a 12-year-old who'd basically just learned to act last year was so thoroughly in character that he could make up lines in the moment.  So that's my favorite line, that line of Daniel's."

A generous guy, Mr. Isaacs!

 

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16 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

There are commonalities, connections and a few references but a perfect through-and-through timeline?  Not so much.   It just doesn’t line up.

There was an episode of DS9 where the admiral (“Doctor Bashir, I Presume...”) said that the Eugenics Wars happened ‘200 years ago’ (which puts it in the 22nd century, not the 20th); continuity is all over the map sometimes, depending on which Star Trek you’re watching at any given moment.  

Even TOS’ “Squire of Gothos" had Kirk telling Trelane that 17th/18th century Earth was “900 years ago” (!?), which would make Kirk’s era the 27th century, at the very least.  

 

DSC is just another side pocket of the greater ST multiverse; some events will be concurrent and other’s won’t.   To quote the sheep in “Babe”, “That’s just the way it is...” 

 

Some people aren't good at math. *shrug*

I think that for the most part TNG, DS9 and Voyager attempted to adhere to canon, some mistakes were made, and yes it's pretty hard to talk about a Eugenics War happening during the same time that the viewers are watching the show. Nothing is 100% compliant, but at least the attempt is made. I think Disco is playing loose with canon and just taking the best from both worlds, having their cake and eating it too. I think that deserves criticism.

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11 hours ago, Hammer said:

I think Disco is playing loose with canon and just taking the best from both worlds, having their cake and eating it too. I think that deserves criticism.

But given its serialized storytelling, we can’t really be sure of how it’ll all end up.  

We’re all trying to see the destination when we’re only in the first kilometer of the trip....

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