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prometheus59650

Episode 1.13 "What's Past is Prologue" Discussion Thread

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7 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

This was an issue for me as well; Lorca went from sneaky, clever manipulator to over-the-top Bond villain in one episode.  I realize he’s ‘home’ but still; I think they laid it on a bit thick.  Jason Isaacs was just fine; it was the way Lorca was written that disappointed me.   His death was a little too Hans Gruber-ish. 

6 hours ago, Mr.Picard said:

I think he at least should have been a bit more "inspirational" with the crew of the palace ship before going full hack and slash. He could have even remarked on it, "Talking. I can't believe I spent this much time trying to TALK people into doing what's right. Those soft Federation types get under your skin." 

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1 minute ago, prometheus59650 said:

I think he at least should have been a bit more "inspirational" with the crew of the palace ship before going full hack and slash. He could have even remarked on it, "Talking. I can't believe I spent this much time trying to TALK people into doing what's right. Those soft Federation types get under your skin." 

^
That would’ve been interesting; to see a prime influence rubbing off on a mirror-Lorca.   It would’ve made his demise a bit more conflicted and dramatic

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11 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

^
That would’ve been interesting; to see a prime influence rubbing off on a mirror-Lorca.   It would’ve made his demise a bit more conflicted and dramatic

It might have even added a bit more emotional heft to his reluctance, even at the end, to hurt Burnam.

 

You watch him fall knowing nothing would ever come of it...and probably wouldn't anyway, but maybe there's a seed of a slightly "better" Lorca in there at the end.

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8 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Um... more like the last 9 months of the Federation timeline.   Yes, it’s 45 seconds to Discovery, but where do they stop?   Do they risk winding up in an even worse universe or timeline?  

It’s the same issue I had with Adm. Janeway resetting the last 25 years of Federation history (which was pretty positive, as far as I could see) just to save two lives.    What if saving Chakotay and/or Seven led to a worse circumstance?   Janeway gambled with the ENTIRE universe.  

I don’t like the idea of temporal resets and this is just ONE reason why; the characters are playing roulette with the fate of the galaxy.

Not to mention it undermines any drama to any story when characters begin to realize that they can always get a temporal do over any time they seriously screw up.   Also the fact that this is supposed to be taking place pre-"Naked Time” (as well as pre-"Tomorrow Is Yesterday”).  I had the same issue with the temporal “cold war” of ENT; it was time travel about a century early.  If Disco starts abusing time travel too, then it’s a dramatic cheat.

One of the things I really liked about DSC is that it made ST feel truly high stakes again.

Sorry, but I fail to see the significant difference; either way, it’s still dramatic cheating. 

 

Isn't this different? The DISCO crew knows that Lorca's highjacking coupled with the miscalculation on their return pulled them out of the war which resulted in Federation losses. They don't have any obligation to maintain the new timeline. It's not about protecting vs destroying their past, like the Janeway example. It's about stopping negative outcomes in their future. A better analogy is Yesterday's Enterprise. In fact its almost an exact analogy. The DISCO is the Enterprise C.

Of course we don't know for sure that the DISCO will travel back in time to fix this...  

8 hours ago, prometheus59650 said:

If they go back and undo 9 months of the war, why not go back and save Georgiou?

And, if they use it to undo the stuff they don't like, how is that any different really from what the other series did?

If they use it to undo all the stuff they don't like....what framework for the show? There would be none. Nothing matters ever. Saru dies? Fix it. Discovery screws up and starts a war with the Tholians? Fix it.

It would be a complete abandonment of even its own continuity.

This is a good point. You just don't want to make time travel too easy or things get messy, and DSC writers will probably adhere to this. If they do use time travel in the last two episodes it will be interesting to see if they describe their abilities as being limited or expansive. 

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2 hours ago, Justin Snead said:

Isn't this different? The DISCO crew knows that Lorca's highjacking coupled with the miscalculation on their return pulled them out of the war which resulted in Federation losses. They don't have any obligation to maintain the new timeline. It's not about protecting vs destroying their past, like the Janeway example. It's about stopping negative outcomes in their future. A better analogy is Yesterday's Enterprise. In fact its almost an exact analogy. The DISCO is the Enterprise C.

Of course we don't know for sure that the DISCO will travel back in time to fix this... 

“Yesterday’s Enterprise” works because it’s only one hour.  We know that the universe has to right itself at the end because of the standalone storytelling nature of TNG.

But the serialized approach of DSC promises deeper arcs and more involved storytelling, otherwise why bother to do a serialized format?    But if we’re going to invest in such protracted storytelling week-to-week only to have it undone in the end by hitting the reset button, all of that expanded drama and story becomes dramatically inert.   Pointless

And yes, you’re right; we don’t know for certain that time travel is the only solution to this scenario, but it’s the only one that would undo the seeming continuity issue of an extended Klingon war and occupation of the Federation that no one seems to recall only 10 years later in “Errand Of Mercy.”   Again, I’m not overly hung up on the continuity if the show could just let its hair down and allow DSC the freedom of being just another pocket of the ST multiverse and not the same timeline as TOS.

 

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2 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

“Yesterday’s Enterprise” works because it’s only one hour.  We know that the universe has to right itself at the end because of the standalone storytelling nature of TNG.

But the serialized approach of DSC promises deeper arcs and more involved storytelling, otherwise why bother to do a serialized format?    But if we’re going to invest in such protracted storytelling week-to-week only to have it undone in the end by hitting the reset button, all of that expanded drama and story becomes dramatically inert.   Pointless

And yes, you’re right; we don’t know for certain that time travel is the only solution to this scenario, but it’s the only one that would undo the seeming continuity issue of an extended Klingon war and occupation of the Federation that no one seems to recall only 10 years later in “Errand Of Mercy.”   Again, I’m not overly hung up on the continuity if the show could just let its hair down and allow DSC the freedom of being just another pocket of the ST multiverse and not the same timeline as TOS.

 

That is the other way to solve it. Try to go back in time but fail and end up in the TOS universe in the last episode. Then you have ended the season in the prime universe without using a giant reset button or changing the timeline in the discovery universe. End it at a place that was never shown in TOS so there is no issue about what it looks like, like in a city on Vulcan. It can look more advanced since we really never saw very much of it.  Have something to indicate that its the Prime Universe like having Burham talk to someone but you only see him from a distance from behind. He says to her that his shore leave is ending and he has to get back to Captain Pike on the Enterprise. When she goes back she says something along the lines of "My brother doesn't recognize me. Maybe I don't exist in this timeline." 

Edited by scenario

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8 hours ago, scenario said:

Try to go back in time but fail and end up in the TOS universe in the last episode. Then you have ended the season in the prime universe without using a giant reset button or changing the timeline in the discovery universe.

The reason that doesn't work is the Starfleet that we all know and what this universe basically still is.

For this to work, a ship full of sworn-to-service Starfleet officers have to be ready and willing to let their Federation burn to the ground in order to stay in the TOS timeline. These people would not abandon their home.

The whole show would become them trying to get back in a weird hodgepodge of Voyager and Sliders. 

I just don't see it.

Edited by prometheus59650

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21 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

The reason that doesn't work is the Starfleet that we all know and what this universe basically still is.

For this to work, a ship full of sworn-to-service Starfleet officers have to be ready and willing to let their Federation burn to the ground in order to stay in the TOS timeline. These people would not abandon their home.

The whole show would become them trying to get back in a weird hodgepodge of Voyager and Sliders. 

I just don't see it.

Kinda where I’m at with it; better to just wink to the audience and let them accept that DSC as, like ENT, a more-or-less approximation of the prime timeline.

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55 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Kinda where I’m at with it; better to just wink to the audience and let them accept that DSC as, like ENT, a more-or-less approximation of the prime timeline.

I just don't think there's a TOS timeline anymore. From the Eugenics wars that never happened to another thousand changes here and there.

There are more threads and offshoots in the Trekverse now than the mycelium network. 

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5 hours ago, prometheus59650 said:

The reason that doesn't work is the Starfleet that we all know and what this universe basically still is.

For this to work, a ship full of sworn-to-service Starfleet officers have to be ready and willing to let their Federation burn to the ground in order to stay in the TOS timeline. These people would not abandon their home.

The whole show would become them trying to get back in a weird hodgepodge of Voyager and Sliders. 

I just don't see it.

The Earth is being destroyed by an alien probe. Would a group of sworn-to-service Starfleet officers led by James T. Kirk leave the battle to go back in time to get a couple of humpback whales? 

The Federation is falling. Defeat will happen within a year. A group has found a solution. They want to release a plague which will kill 99% + of Klingons, men, women and children. Star Fleet is appalled. This goes against everything that the Federation stands for. But the alternative is Klingon rule. The Discovery is only one ship that has a drive that cannot be duplicated with the time and resources that Star Fleet has available.  One ship, no matter how powerful, cannot win the war. Remember the Bismarck. They decide on a gamble. Send the Discovery to explore other timelines to find something to help with the war, a new weapon, a new ally, something. The first timeline they look at is the timeline of TOS.

Their mission is to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations to boldly go where no one has gone before. Instead of exploring deep space, they are exploring different versions of nearby space. It might be a lot like our universe, it may have totally different aliens, it might have peaceful Klingons and warrior Vulcans. Anything goes. This frees the writers hands. It's a different type ST but they still are exploring. 

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31 minutes ago, scenario said:

The Earth is being destroyed by an alien probe. Would a group of sworn-to-service Starfleet officers led by James T. Kirk leave the battle to go back in time to get a couple of humpback whales? 

To save their universe. They went back, within their own timeline, did some whalenapping and came back to almost literally the moment they left. This isn't really the same thing.

This still turns the show into Star Trek: Sliding Voyager. It's still far less gobblegorp to just go ahead and go back to the Binary, undo the entire  war, and let Discovery go to Season 2 with Yeoh back in the chair.

Both are basically cop-outs and, as Vie points out, basically render the whole notion of the serialized storytelling TPTB touted, pointless. But the latter is just...much too much.

In that event, Season 2 could be as far off in the horizon as they want because I'd need a lot of time to figure out if I even wanted to watch it again.

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2 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

To save their universe. They went back, within their own timeline, did some whalenapping and came back to almost literally the moment they left. This isn't really the same thing.

This still turns the show into Star Trek: Sliding Voyager. It's still far less gobblegorp to just go ahead and go back to the Binary, undo the entire  war, and let Discovery go to Season 2 with Yeoh back in the chair.

Both are basically cop-outs and, as Vie points out, basically render the whole notion of the serialized storytelling TPTB touted, pointless. But the latter is just...much too much.

In that event, Season 2 could be as far off in the horizon as they want because I'd need a lot of time to figure out if I even wanted to watch it again.

Unless they write the spore drive out of the show, they are going to use it. They can either use it to travel within their universe or to other universes like the Mirror Universe. There really is no in story reason that they have to limit the Discovery to traveling only in their own universe unless the writers decide to add one. 

If your mission is to explore strange new worlds, what is the point of limiting yourself to exploring only one universe? Why not explore other universes, especially since Discovery is the only ship that can? They're not becoming either sliders or voyager because they can and will come home any time they want to. They are going out exploring and then coming home. But they won't be able to communicate back to Starfleet anytime they get in trouble just like TOS.

I can see an arc where they go out, find a useful and ethical weapon by Federation standards which keeps the Federation fighting and then going back out. A new cloaking device, better sensors, etc.  Finally, the Federation wins the war and they can just explore the multiverse, as the only Federation ship that can. You can have political discussions about what their mission really is. Are they spies, going out to steal technology or explorers? Different Admirals push different agendas. 

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6 hours ago, prometheus59650 said:

I just don't think there's a TOS timeline anymore. From the Eugenics wars that never happened to another thousand changes here and there.

There are more threads and offshoots in the Trekverse now than the mycelium network. 

The mycelium network is a nice metaphor for the Trek multiverse; it spans dimensions and timelines but it’s all interconnected...

 

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So bottom line, you've got this cool new ship that can explore the multiverse the same way the Enterprise can explore the Universe but some people are against using it? Why exactly? If the Discovery can explore the Multiverse, having them explore the TOS universe for an episode or two would solve all of the continuity problems all at once. 

We already have the prime universe, the mirror universe and the Kelvin universe. Saying that the Prime universe split when the Enterprise went back to fight the Borg thereby creating the Enterprise universe adds one more. Why limit it to four universes? The limit is that you only have one ship capable of exploring the universes. 

It's easy enough to put limitations. The Discovery is limited at first to 4 or 5 universes. Discovery-Prime, Mirror, TOS-Prime and maybe one or two more. As they make more trips and gather more information, they can slowly add new universes to explore. Every season, a new universe to explore. Each year is a reset that isn't.

Maybe they explore Discovery-Prime2 and in that Universe Stamets died but Culber didn't. Culber 2 happily joins the crew but there are subtle differences between 1 and 2. Culber 2 hates opera. Both Stamets and Culber 2 have important memories of their relationship that the other one doesn't have. They have different memories of how they met. It's like marrying the identical twin of your deceased spouse, only closer. How will they handle the differences emotionally? 

If the love of your life dies, will you be happy to find someone that's a lot like the one you love but with some real differences. Maybe Culber was exactly the same until he was a prisoner of a minor war when he was 19 years old and that changed him.  What is the ethics of the situation where you can kind of sort of replace people you lost? There is a car accident where you survived but your spouse and child died. Somewhere out there there is a universe where you died but your spouse and child lived. Should you go looking for it if you can? You can explore all sorts of moral issues when you can explore a new universe every season. 

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2 hours ago, scenario said:

So bottom line, you've got this cool new ship that can explore the multiverse the same way the Enterprise can explore the Universe but some people are against using it? Why exactly? If the Discovery can explore the Multiverse, having them explore the TOS universe for an episode or two would solve all of the continuity problems all at once. 

If they did that, they would be admitting that this is a reboot outside of the Prime timeline. That is not the way this show was sold to us. Also, why explore the multiverse when they've only explored 1 out of 2 trillion galaxies in their home reality?

 

Sorry about the formatting of my replies below, apparently this board doesn't like manual quoting...

Quote

We already have the prime universe, the mirror universe and the Kelvin universe. Saying that the Prime universe split when the Enterprise went back to fight the Borg thereby creating the Enterprise universe adds one more. Why limit it to four universes? The limit is that you only have one ship capable of exploring the universes. 

It's easy enough to put limitations. The Discovery is limited at first to 4 or 5 universes. Discovery-Prime, Mirror, TOS-Prime and maybe one or two more. As they make more trips and gather more information, they can slowly add new universes to explore. Every season, a new universe to explore. Each year is a reset that isn't.

That's Sliders. What investment does the viewer have in learning about this universe if they are only going to be there for a few episodes. A trip the MU here and there is a nice break, but I wouldn't want the entire show to be about that. I didn't wait over a decade for a Sliders reboot.

 

Maybe they explore Discovery-Prime2 and in that Universe Stamets died but Culber didn't. Culber 2 happily joins the crew but there are subtle differences between 1 and 2. Culber 2 hates opera. Both Stamets and Culber 2 have important memories of their relationship that the other one doesn't have. They have different memories of how they met. It's like marrying the identical twin of your deceased spouse, only closer. How will they handle the differences emotionally? 

If the love of your life dies, will you be happy to find someone that's a lot like the one you love but with some real differences. Maybe Culber was exactly the same until he was a prisoner of a minor war when he was 19 years old and that changed him.  What is the ethics of the situation where you can kind of sort of replace people you lost? There is a car accident where you survived but your spouse and child died. Somewhere out there there is a universe where you died but your spouse and child lived. Should you go looking for it if you can? You can explore all sorts of moral issues when you can explore a new universe every season.

I find it problematic actually that the MU characters are so similar to Prime, yet the constellations themselves aren't even in the same location in the MU as Prime. How would the same people exist in MU? Reproduction is a crap shoot, even with the same parents the odds are the exact same baby isn't going to be conceived. Also, who is to say that the same people meet and have kids at the exact same time, even though there is no connection to Prime, and even though they are likely to have wildly different jobs and live in different locations? When you pull the threads on MU, it really starts to fall apart. 

 

Edited by Hammer

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14 minutes ago, Hammer said:

If they did that, they would be admitting that this is a reboot outside of the Prime timeline. That is not the way this show was sold to us. Also, why explore the multiverse when they've only explored 1 out of 2 trillion galaxies in their home reality?

Im with you. Second season they should go to Andramada or some other galaxy. 

There is a lot of consternation about the final moments of this ep, but we should all just wait to see what they do with it. How many times have we screamed about what DSC is doing only to watch something different unfold. And there was so much awesome stuff in this ep. Sometimes it feels like we spend a lot of energy debating all the plot twists. They distract us from all the substance.  

Edited by Justin Snead

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1 hour ago, Hammer said:

If they did that, they would be admitting that this is a reboot outside of the Prime timeline. That is not the way this show was sold to us. Also, why explore the multiverse when they've only explored 1 out of 2 trillion galaxies in their home reality?

 

Sorry about the formatting of my replies below, apparently this board doesn't like manual quoting...

It is in the prime timeline. It's just that the Prime timeline is a lot bushier that it seemed to be at first. 

I wouldn't have any problem at all with exploring the home universe. But once they used the spore drive to investigate other timelines, they opened up pandora's box. There's no reason not to explore other timelines, now that they can do it. 

From a story telling standpoint, you're not limited anymore by canon. 

Edited by scenario

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1 hour ago, scenario said:

From a story telling standpoint, you're not limited anymore by canon. 

Then it should have taken place post Nemesis. As I've made clear, I think. with my defense of the war idea insofar that just because they never said anything about it either way, that doesn't mean there wasn't a war ten years before The Cage, I'm willing to give them a LOT of leeway and pick my battles.

But they CHOSE to limit themselves with canon.

If they do this with the spore drive, any relevance the show has to that canon, or even its own canon, completely disintegrates.

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1 hour ago, prometheus59650 said:

Then it should have taken place post Nemesis. As I've made clear, I think. with my defense of the war idea insofar that just because they never said anything about it either way, that doesn't mean there wasn't a war ten years before The Cage, I'm willing to give them a LOT of leeway and pick my battles.

But they CHOSE to limit themselves with canon.

If they do this with the spore drive, any relevance the show has to that canon, or even its own canon, completely disintegrates.

If they don't do this with the spore drive, what is the point of introducing it? It's like having a series set in space that doesn't have warp drive. Then they introduce it and somehow just forget about it. If they want to say something along the idea of we can't use the spore drive anymore, I'm fine with that. But introducing it and not using it would be like introducing the concept that Vulcans can teleport in one episode and then sort of forgetting about it. 

You still have canon if you set it later, just not as much of it. Voy was set in a completely different part of the galaxy with all new aliens and they still managed to break canon about every third episode. The prime directive is canon. How many times did Voy break the prime directive? 

I'm also willing to give them a lot of leeway. The looks of the ships, I leave to artistic licence. It really doesn't bother me. Minor things like names of ships or names of species don't really bother me. But a major war that killed, millions maybe billions of people just 10 year ago and it just kind of slipped everyone's mind over 700 episodes, I find hard to believe. In my head, I can ignore the changing around of the dates or severity of wars that happened before the characters were born. It would be like a twenty five year old today saying that WWII happened around 1920 and killed a hundred million people. The further back in time and the less interest a person has on a subject, the more vague and incorrect the statement could be. When Kirk talks about a war that happened two hundred years ago his time, I'm willing to give the writers the benefit of the doubt that the war was something that Kirk learned about in high school and hasn't thought much about since then. 

Edited by scenario

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2 minutes ago, scenario said:

If they don't do this with the spore drive, what is the point of introducing it?

As a means of winning the war/getting to the MU/getting home?

I don't think you need to ponder things too long to imagine why the spore drive was abandoned. It's proven already to be 10 times more trouble than its worth.

6 minutes ago, scenario said:

The prime directive is canon. How many times did Voy break the prime directive? 

These are not the same thing. The PD is a plot device that, for all the times it's been broken, is consistent unto itself and doesn't threaten to unravel the very premise of the show and render everything that might happen in said show meaningless.

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Just now, prometheus59650 said:

As a means of winning the war/getting to the MU/getting home?

I don't think you need to ponder things too long to imagine why the spore drive was abandoned. It's proven already to be 10 times more trouble than its worth.

These are not the same thing. The PD is a plot device that, for all the times it's been broken, is consistent unto itself and doesn't threaten to unravel the very premise of the show and render everything that might happen in said show meaningless.

The spore drive is at the same stage of development at this point as the airplane was when the Wright Brothers first built it. When it comes to the spore drive they either have to use it or give a good in story reason why they can't. Something like using it will unspool the fabric of time. I really wouldn't mind it. It just feels weird that you spend 1/3 of the screen time in the first season on the spore drive and then just drop it. 

Personally, I would rather that they would just say that it's set in one of many prime universes, not necessarily the one with Kirk. So they sold us one thing and changed their minds later. What else is new. Voy was sold as a ship lost in space with two incompatible crews trying to live in peace. They dropped that idea by the third episode or so. Shows change from the first drawing board idea to the final draft, especially if the show runner you started with leaves. TOS was sold as wagon train in space. Things change.

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1 minute ago, scenario said:

When it comes to the spore drive they either have to use it or give a good in story reason why they can't.

This entire season has provided that.

 

2 minutes ago, scenario said:

Something like using it will unspool the fabric of time.

Or maybe destroy the entire multiverse....like last week? :)

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1 minute ago, prometheus59650 said:

This entire season has provided that.

 

Or maybe destroy the entire multiverse....like last week? :)

Using the spore drive didn't almost destroy the entire multiverse, misusing it did. A matter/antimatter warp core that is misused could wipe out intelligent life on a planet but that hasn't stopped them. If you stop using a technology because someone might misuse it, we would still be living in caves. 

There are currently two known universes in Discovery. Both discovered the spore drive and one of them misused it and almost destroyed the multiverse. If tf there are 2 universes, why not 100. Half of the known universes misused the spore network. What if there are more universes misusing the spore drive. Turning your back on a problem doesn't solve it.

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8 hours ago, prometheus59650 said:

I don't think you need to ponder things too long to imagine why the spore drive was abandoned. It's proven already to be 10 times more trouble than its worth.

^
This.  

 

7 hours ago, scenario said:

Using the spore drive didn't almost destroy the entire multiverse, misusing it did.

Either way, it’s still more than cause for Starfleet to abandon a potentially multiverse-threatening drive system...

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8 hours ago, scenario said:

Using the spore drive didn't almost destroy the entire multiverse, misusing it did.

Creating Omega particles doesn't destroy warp space, not storing them properly does.

 

Starfleet doesn't mess with Omega particles.

Edited by prometheus59650

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