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Episode 1.13 "What's Past is Prologue" Discussion Thread

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1 hour ago, Garak the spy said:

:laugh: Ok joking aside I did get upset about Lorca's fate, I was expecting him to be the good guy and I didn't like what they did with him. I don't care how manipulative he is, his actions on Discovery don't match what the writers want us to believe. Lorca didn't have to save Sarek neither did he have to fight the Klingon war. I still think he trully wanted the federation to win.

Recall that Lorca only cared about Sarek because Burnham did and he said as much. Your comment makes me realize that Lorca has been in love with Burnham this whole time. It explains all of their interactions.

I do think Lorca is dead. But if they want to bring him back as a Mycelial ghost that would be easy to do since he died in the massive ball of spores.  

I also agree that he went out different than the character we knew, but he went out as the man he was. And it was a great conclusion to his story in my opinion. I'm kind of glad they did not drag it out. As I said on another post, the guy had to die. If he stayed on the show, and remained "stealth Mirror Lorca" it would have bent the rest of the series toward his story and away from Burnham and the rest of the things that DSC is supposed to be about it. 

Edited by Justin Snead

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3 minutes ago, Justin Snead said:

Recall that Lorca only cared about Sarek because Burnham did and he said as much. Your comment makes me realize that Lorca has been in love with Burnham this whole time. It explains all of their interactions.

I do think Lorca is dead. But if they want to bring him back as a Mycelial ghost that would be easy to do since he died in the massive ball of spores.  

Lorca is not a fool, he knew that was not the same Michael and even if what you say ware true, he didn't have to do anything, he already saved her from going to jale, I don't think saving Sarek would add anything else to that that could be of possible use for him. He did it because he thought it was right, he risked his ship and risked her for that porpouse. He didn't have to. At all...

Edited by Garak the spy

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3 minutes ago, Garak the spy said:

Lorca is not a fool, he knew that was not the same Michael and even if what you say ware true, he didn't have to do anything, he already saved her from going to jale, I don't think saving Sarek would add anything else to that that could be of possible use for him. He did it because he thought it was right, he risked his ship and risked her for that porpouse. He didn't have to. At all...

Yeah but in the episode he said he was only doing it for Burnham. He has a soft spot for her. It's why he fell for her trap in the end.  

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20 minutes ago, Justin Snead said:

In Tomorrow is Yesterday Kirk says that there are 12 ships in the fleet and they all look like the Enterprise. You know what: he "misspoke," in the parlance of politics. There might me 12 Constitutions class ships, but there is also a Discovery in Kirk's fleet and it don't look like the Enterprise.

Who says? If we're going by, "I only believe it happens if Kirk mentions it," there are 12 Connies and a smattering of other ships. There's no Discovery and no fleet.

But, just because TOS didn't mention it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist/didn't happen

1 hour ago, Garak the spy said:

Second thing: I was REALLY disappointed by the war not have ended already. When they said the 9 months thing I was certain they would have realized that by then the war would be over. Didn't they say season two would be about something other than the Klingon war? Are htey going to end the war in two episodes? What the hell? 

If I'm guessing, they go back 9 months and use Georgiou's idea to force the Klingons to fall back.

Or, if I'm going full fanboy, Burnam goes back to the Binary, saves her captain, and prevents the war.

 

But, most likely, A.

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1 minute ago, prometheus59650 said:

Who says? If we're going by, "I only believe it happens if Kirk mentions it," there are 12 Connies and a smattering of other ships. There's no Discovery and no fleet.

But, just because TOS didn't mention it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist/didn't happen

If I'm guessing, they go back 9 months and use Georgiou's idea to force the Klingons to fall back.

Or, if I'm going full fanboy, Burnam goes back to the Binary, saves her captain, and prevents the war.

 

But, most likely, A.

If they go back and reset, everyone is back alive that died on Discovery, including Mirror Lorca. 

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4 minutes ago, Justin Snead said:

Yeah but in the episode he said he was only doing it for Burnham. He has a soft spot for her. It's why he fell for her trap in the end.  

That's the point though, he risked her life in an attempt to save Sarek, not to mention a duzen other missions ( he only expressed concern on the last one ), hell he even made sure to send her with the team to the Glenn, she was almost killed. Also, hee didn't have to "adopt" Tyler either. I don't care how manipulative Lorca was, his actions dion't make sense to me and to me he is still a good guy. Screw Discovery, for making me really liking a character just so they could kill him off as a bad guy in the end. LORCA LIVES! LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE! LONG LIVE LORCA!

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2 minutes ago, Garak the spy said:

That's the point though, he risked her life in an attempt to save Sarek, not to mention a duzen other missions ( he only expressed concern on the last one ), hell he even made sure to send her with the team to the Glenn, she was almost killed. Also, hee didn't have to "adopt" Tyler either. I don't care how manipulative Lorca was, his actions dion't make sense to me and to me he is still a good guy. Screw Discovery, for making me really liking a character just so they could kill him off as a bad guy in the end. LORCA LIVES! LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE! LONG LIVE LORCA!

I actually don't disagree. Lorca is an interesting character and we really know so little about him there a much for the fans and the novels to fill in. He may have redeeming qualities. However, his speech in the end pretty much establishes him as a Mirror Universe kind of guy. 

12 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

Or, if I'm going full fanboy, Burnam goes back to the Binary, saves her captain, and prevents the war.

 

It seems every one of us gets to have his or her very own fan theory and this one is mine. This season will end where it began, back at the binary stars. Like the Tyler/Voq theory there is some off-screen, TV production evidence for this... SPOILER Alert SPOILER Alert SPOILER Alert... Chris Obi was in Vancouver filming DSC twice, at the beginning of the production and at the end.   

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1 minute ago, Garak the spy said:

That's the point though, he risked her life in an attempt to save Sarek, not to mention a duzen other missions ( he only expressed concern on the last one ), hell he even made sure to send her with the team to the Glenn, she was almost killed.

The mission to the Glenn?

A) A test of her ability. If she was as weak as he believed the rest of the people in that universe, what good would she be to him?

B) She had to feel a kinship to him. As such, the disgraced Burnam was given a chance to earn her Captain's trust.

Sarek?

In Mass Effect 2, an integral part of the game is to take your teammates on missions personal to them so they can put those issues aside, focus on the bigger mission before them, and gel with the team.

They were referred to loyalty mission. This was hers. Lorca did it to gain her loyalty and devotion.  

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6 minutes ago, Justin Snead said:

It seems every one of us gets to have his or her very own fan theory and this one is mine. This season will end where it began, back at the binary stars. Like the Tyler/Voq theory there is some off-screen, TV production evidence for this... SPOILER Alert SPOILER Alert SPOILER Alert... Chris Obi was in Vancouver filming DSC twice, at the beginning of the production and at the end.   

That could just mean they needed some extra scenes before releasing the final product of the first episode though. I do like that theory though, cause that means prime Lorca is alive and therefore we can see him in the future.

3 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

The mission to the Glenn?

A) A test of her ability. If she was as weak as he believed the rest of the people in that universe, what good would she be to him?

B) She had to feel a kinship to him. As such, the disgraced Burnam was given a chance to earn her Captain's trust.

Sarek?

In Mass Effect 2, an integral part of the game is to take your teammates on missions personal to them so they can put those issues aside, focus on the bigger mission before them, and gel with the team.

They were referred to loyalty mission. This was hers. Lorca did it to gain her loyalty and devotion.  

Was that worth his only chance of going back to his universe though? If Michael had simply died he would just give up and stay content at living the rest of his life faking being someone he never was?

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10 hours ago, Corylea said:

Something I enjoyed about this episode that I haven't seen anyone else mention:  At the end of "Mirror, Mirror," Kirk tries to talk Mirror Spock into rebelling against the Empire by saying that a government based on tyranny cannot endure.  And in this episode, Lorca tries to talk Burnham into joining him by telling her that a government based on idealism cannot endure.  I thought it was a brilliant callback to "Mirror, Mirror" to reverse the direction of the speech and have a Mirror character tell a Prime character that THEIR government is doomed to failure!  (I disagree, of course, but that doesn't keep me from admiring the parallel.)

Good catch. I also saw a parallel with TKuvma. While the klingon war and the MU eps seem very dislocated, thematically they were pretty tightly connected, first by Burnham's conversation with Mirror Voq, then Lorca's speech put a bow on it. It's like this season is telling different stories all with the same message. 

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3 minutes ago, Garak the spy said:

Was that worth his only chance of going back to his universe though? If Michael had simply died he would just give up and stay content at living the rest of his life faking being someone he never was?

If she died he could still get home, most likely. Burnam was his best chance of taking the throne. He may have easily settled for just getting home.

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46 minutes ago, Justin Snead said:

Im as much a fan as you, and I just don't see any inconsistencies. Not a single one that matters. The lack of future use of the spore drive will be explained--there are half a dozen easy justifications we can imagine for Starfleet shutting down the program before TOS.  As for the Klingon "victory" it seems obvious to me that the writers will fix this by having the DISCO jump back in time in the next episode to end the war before it gets that far.  

We're a long way from the Spock coattails argument. If you think all this show is doing is tapping into TOS nostalgia, you're not seeing the same qualities in it that I am.

I continue to believe that DSC is not a reboot, that it is set in the Prime timeline, that Kirk and Spock are reading the same news reports as Burnham is. And my head canon (and TOS rewatch) is all the happier for it.      

In Tomorrow is Yesterday Kirk says that there are 12 ships in the fleet and they all look like the Enterprise. You know what: he "misspoke," in the parlance of politics. There might me 12 Constitutions class ships, but there is also a Discovery in Kirk's fleet and it don't look like the Enterprise.

DSC does the opposite of this. It adds richness and new life the to other shows, especially TOS (and even the god awful ENT which to their credit they are not ignoring). So many TOS episodes carry new layers of meaning. For example, watch Arena. It's clear that Kirk is thinking about Burnham's decision at the Binary Stars, and this is just a coincidence tha the DSC writers never intended.   

If the spore drive existed in the prime timeline, Janeway would have used one to get home. She violated the temporal prime directive, surely if she knew about spore drive they would have built one, maybe by scrapping parts from their 'full compliment' of runabouts (lol). Undoubtedly such a technology would have been deployed at Wolf-359 with the Earth at stake. Maybe the Klingon war victory gets wiped out by timey-wimey, but I'm not buying that excuse with the spore drive.  

The reboot movies tried to do the same kind of thing with their transporter upgrades. I think the writers in both cases want the best of both worlds; the most advanced tech the viewers have seen while still tying the show/movie to the legendary TOS crew. This is a rich universe, I don't need the main character to have family ties to Spock to accept it.

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1 minute ago, prometheus59650 said:

If she died he could still get home, most likely. Burnam was his best chance of taking the throne. He may have easily settled for just getting home.

He's not going to regain the throne if Burnam is as weak as he is she is. Putting her in danger serves two purposes. It proves to him that she is strong enough to pull of what he needs done. And it could bind her to him so that maybe he can get both Burnam's to love him. 

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4 minutes ago, scenario said:

He's not going to regain the throne if Burnam is as weak as he is she is. Putting her in danger serves two purposes. It proves to him that she is strong enough to pull of what he needs done. And it could bind her to him so that maybe he can get both Burnam's to love him. 

I dunno, I still don't buy it.

Edited by Garak the spy

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1 hour ago, Justin Snead said:

As for the Klingon "victory" it seems obvious to me that the writers will fix this by having the DISCO jump back in time in the next episode to end the war before it gets that far.  

^
This is one of the problems I’m having with the climax of “Past is Prologue”, because it seems set up for only one of two possibilities... a big reset button that would render any of the drama meaningless (ala VGR) or a ‘prime’ timeline that is wildly inconsistent with TOS.  

I’d have preferred they’d jumped ahead 300 years or so forward in the prime timeline, beyond the era of even Picard and company.   It’d finally get the show on a track again where it could explore ‘strange, new worlds’ again, and not worry so much about stepping on canonical toes...

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25 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

^
This is one of the problems I’m having with the climax of “Past is Prologue”, because it seems set up for only one of two possibilities... a big reset button that would render any of the drama meaningless (ala VGR) or a ‘prime’ timeline that is wildly inconsistent with TOS.  

I’d have preferred they’d jumped ahead 300 years or so forward in the prime timeline, beyond the era of even Picard and company.   It’d finally get the show on a track again where it could explore ‘strange, new worlds’ again, and not worry so much about stepping on canonical toes...

I try not to get too married to my pet theories, but I wish they had done things differently too.  It could have solved all of the continuity issues by having Stamets seal off the mycelial network from human interference somehow—possibly through some great and dramatic personal sacrifice.  Maybe even reuniting with Culber, which would also have been more romantic.  Then use the USS Defiant interphasic tech to throw the ship way into the future like the USS Bozeman.  Either because Stamets closed off the mycelial network or because they thought the spore technology led to the destruction of the USS Discovery, Starfleet abandons the technology.  Plus, the ship never informs Kirks era about the Mirror universe (especially if ISS Discovery never entered the Prime universe).

Like others, I have trouble swallowing the idea of the Klingons almost winning a war 10 years before TOS.  I also don’t like the USS Discovery having knowledge of the Mirror Universe, yet Kirk and Spock act like it is a newly encountered phenomenon ten years later.  And what of the spore technology now?  They had a golden opportunity to close off that continuity issue, yet instead they healed the mycelial network?

I’ll hold off judgment until I see how it ends, but it better not be a reset button!!!  I could at least buy the idea of a war we have not heard of before, because maybe it just didn’t come up?  But the spore network and knowledge of the Mirror Universe (with the Emperor inthe Prime timeline no less!), those things actually bother me more because it seems to directly contradict major TOS tech limitations and at least one “Top 10” TOS story.

Edited by Locutus

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Okay, They use the spores to go back in time individually, without the ship. Burnam finds a way to stop the war before it starts with the help of Saru. Tilly and Stamets convince the original Lorca that the Spore drive will never work and not to use the transporter during the ion storm.  Then Burnam and Saru request a transfer to Discovery. 

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2 hours ago, scenario said:

Okay, They use the spores to go back in time individually, without the ship. Burnam finds a way to stop the war before it starts with the help of Saru. Tilly and Stamets convince the original Lorca that the Spore drive will never work and not to use the transporter during the ion storm.  Then Burnam and Saru request a transfer to Discovery. 

Reset button.

That's the problem, the only way to explain all of this is either a reset button like you just described, or it's a reboot of the prime timeline and they are going to pretend TNG, Voy, DS9 didn't happen. I don't think they will want to get rid of spore drive at this point, it has too many possibilities.

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8 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

^
This is one of the problems I’m having with the climax of “Past is Prologue”, because it seems set up for only one of two possibilities... a big reset button that would render any of the drama meaningless (ala VGR) or a ‘prime’ timeline that is wildly inconsistent with TOS.  

I’d have preferred they’d jumped ahead 300 years or so forward in the prime timeline, beyond the era of even Picard and company.   It’d finally get the show on a track again where it could explore ‘strange, new worlds’ again, and not worry so much about stepping on canonical toes...

I don't see how going back in time will necessarily be a reset button. If they go back in time to the moment they entered the MU then nothing will be reset except the last 45 seconds fo this episode. No big deal. If they go back in time to the Battle of the Binaries, which is my guess, AND the entire season one timeline ceases to exist even in our main characters memories, that would be a reset--BUT it could be a really cool and never-before-seen reset because 1) next season would show the DISCO crew coming together again but in a different way (not saying this is likely, but if it is I trust these writers to make it awesome); 2) WE would remember season one, and therefore the writers could play off all the character interactions going forward against that memory.  

Reset buttons were bad because it was a way of snapping back to the typical TOS/TNG narrative framework after a major change happened to the Enterprise or the Voyager, etc. Clearly DSC does not shrink from changing up not just that framework but its own framework.

Also, I think the spore drive is essential to the series and we need it until the last episode. TNG era Trek was like going from Apollo mission to the space shuttle, the miraculous became routine. Watching DSC makes me realize that we could have a new Trek show where they are warping around the quadrant like the last 50 years. The Mycelial science adds a heavy dose of wonder and unknown possibility that Trek was beginning to conspicuously lack.

And yes yes that's why DSC should have been a sequel not a prequel but, it's not a sequel and is not likely to be. I don't want to lose that part of the show just to make canon airtight, especially when a simple if tacked on explanation will work in the final episodes of the series.       

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3 hours ago, Justin Snead said:

I don't see how going back in time will necessarily be a reset button. If they go back in time to the moment they entered the MU then nothing will be reset except the last 45 seconds fo this episode.

Um... more like the last 9 months of the Federation timeline.   Yes, it’s 45 seconds to Discovery, but where do they stop?   Do they risk winding up in an even worse universe or timeline?  

It’s the same issue I had with Adm. Janeway resetting the last 25 years of Federation history (which was pretty positive, as far as I could see) just to save two lives.    What if saving Chakotay and/or Seven led to a worse circumstance?   Janeway gambled with the ENTIRE universe.  

I don’t like the idea of temporal resets and this is just ONE reason why; the characters are playing roulette with the fate of the galaxy.

Not to mention it undermines any drama to any story when characters begin to realize that they can always get a temporal do over any time they seriously screw up.   Also the fact that this is supposed to be taking place pre-"Naked Time” (as well as pre-"Tomorrow Is Yesterday”).  I had the same issue with the temporal “cold war” of ENT; it was time travel about a century early.  If Disco starts abusing time travel too, then it’s a dramatic cheat.

One of the things I really liked about DSC is that it made ST feel truly high stakes again.

3 hours ago, Justin Snead said:

Reset buttons were bad because it was a way of snapping back to the typical TOS/TNG narrative framework after a major change happened to the Enterprise or the Voyager, etc. Clearly DSC does not shrink from changing up not just that framework but its own framework.

Sorry, but I fail to see the significant difference; either way, it’s still dramatic cheating. 

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Justin Snead said:

Reset buttons were bad because it was a way of snapping back to the typical TOS/TNG narrative framework after a major change happened to the Enterprise or the Voyager, etc. Clearly DSC does not shrink from changing up not just that framework but its own framework.

1

If they go back and undo 9 months of the war, why not go back and save Georgiou?

And, if they use it to undo the stuff they don't like, how is that any different really from what the other series did?

If they use it to undo all the stuff they don't like....what framework for the show? There would be none. Nothing matters ever. Saru dies? Fix it. Discovery screws up and starts a war with the Tholians? Fix it.

It would be a complete abandonment of even its own continuity.

Edited by prometheus59650

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I agree with Prom and Sehlat. The Bobby Ewing Under The Shower erases an entire season of a show approach is not a wise one. Not in ANY genre. I sincerely doubt that the fandom would be very forgiving towards it. Undoing the entire first season also seems just a tiny bit counterproductive to the whole “We want for Michael Burnham to live through a redemption arc” thing they want to have going on.

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On 1/29/2018 at 10:05 PM, Justin Snead said:

Chris Obi was in Vancouver filming DSC twice, at the beginning of the production and at the end.   

So...Chris Obi was reading his lines over Skype/Facetime to the rest of the cast in... Toronto?

:P 

On 1/29/2018 at 10:12 PM, Garak the spy said:

That could just mean they needed some extra scenes before releasing the final product of the first episode though. I do like that theory though, cause that means prime Lorca is alive and therefore we can see him in the future.

That could have been a possibility, except for the fact that the first episode had been released by the time they started filming the last one. Source.

As for the episode and the season themselves, I agree that a full reset button would be a cheat, but I'm not against a partial reset. As many have stated, as it is now, there are some discrepancies (some can be waved off, others shouldn't but probably will be ignored. I'm not a canon fanatic, but there are rules to setting your story within an universe AND a particular timeframe that should be respected) with what we know and/or expect Trek to become. In that regards,  it actually feels like DSC resets the other series to a degree. I can see a reset that wouldn't affect the DSC crew but would align it a little more with the established lore. But maybe they won't go that way. If so, I'm willing to be surprised, but I can also pull a Gustavo if it veers too far away from what I appreciate. No harm done, I'll just walk away as they look for new fans to swindle with subscriptions, expensive DVD sets, books and other merchandise. :)

That being said, I still don't know where I stand with DSC. Granted, it has been more interesting since they moved to the MU (my GF was actually about to give up by the time they got there, but she is now back on board, even though she has hated the MU, time trave gimmicks and other Deus Ex Machinas-type stories in the past), but I for one feel a desire to meet the crew a little more: See them joke, unwind a little. I'm not asking for a holodeck episode - God forbids - but I believe it is Sehlat who addressed this on his blog: The serialized format invites us to stay invested in what will happen next, but the previous episodic nature of (most) Trek, for all its faults, allowed us to delve in the daily lives of the characters, even if for a moment, or as a B story. And for this reason, among others, I'm not fully invested yet, even if I have watched every episode and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

As a final note, I will say that despite my love for Lorca, I will echo what at least one other poster have said (Garak) in that Lorca's characterization as Stealth Lorca doesn't completely align with Exposed Mirror Lorca. I see, and appreciate, the inversion of what Spock said in Mirror, and acknowledge that they peppered us with some slight  hints, but it still felt like it was a bit of a cop-out, a cheap-shot, to convince us that a character who almost died in the MU (if not for a lucky transporter accident) and that would later die shortly after his return to this universe - after falling naïvely for a re-used plot he was fully aware of, having done a version of it a day or two before - would last for months in the prime universe, posing as a (traumatized) Captain put in charge of a critical experimental vessel sent all over the place doing combat operations. I must admit, I still have a hard time buying it.

Edited by Tupperfan

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54 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

I agree with Prom and Sehlat. The Bobby Ewing Under The Shower erases an entire season of a show approach is not a wise one. Not in ANY genre. I sincerely doubt that the fandom would be very forgiving towards it.

 

I will never forget that Ira Behr had to be talked out of making DS9 nothing but Benny's epic fever dream.

Had he done so, I'd probably still feel disgust over it 

This is a very dangerous creative road to be flirting with.

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4 hours ago, prometheus59650 said:

I will never forget that Ira Behr had to be talked out of making DS9 nothing but Benny's epic fever dream.

^
That would’ve been ST’s ultimate “shower dream” alright; a  golden one, directly on the fans.  I love Behr, but that’s not even funny...

5 hours ago, Tupperfan said:

As a final note, I will say that despite my love for Lorca, I will echo what at least one other poster have said (Garak) in that Lorca's characterization as Stealth Lorca doesn't completely align with Exposed Mirror Lorca. I see, and appreciate, the inversion of what Spock said in Mirror, and acknowledge that they peppered us with some slight  hints, but it still felt like it was a bit of a cop-out, a cheap-shot, to convince us that a character who almost died in the MU (if not for a lucky transporter accident) and that would later die shortly after his return to this universe - after falling naïvely for a re-used plot he was fully aware of, having done a version of it a day or two before - would last for months in the prime universe, posing as a (traumatized) Captain put in charge of a critical experimental vessel sent all over the place doing combat operations. I must admit, I still have a hard time buying it.

^
This was an issue for me as well; Lorca went from sneaky, clever manipulator to over-the-top Bond villain in one episode.  I realize he’s ‘home’ but still; I think they laid it on a bit thick.  Jason Isaacs was just fine; it was the way Lorca was written that disappointed me.   His death was a little too Hans Gruber-ish. 

5 hours ago, Mr.Picard said:

Undoing the entire first season also seems just a tiny bit counterproductive to the whole “We want for Michael Burnham to live through a redemption arc” thing they want to have going on.

^
This.

There are no lessons learned if every mistake can be undone by taking the spore drive back a few more months or what not.  

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