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prometheus59650

Episode 1.13 "What's Past is Prologue" Discussion Thread

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Two ways they can fix it. This is not the TOS universe but a closely related universe or they use the spore drive to go back in time and stop the war from happening. I can't think of another way to keep this canon. All the episodes where Kirk and the Klingon's talk and not one of them said something like we almost got you 10 years ago...

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7 minutes ago, Comiskeybum said:

The only war that bloody ever mentioned was the Romulan War.  I dont buy it.

It's really kind of up to what they decide to do. It makes sense, even though people are sort of expecting Roddenberry to have read the minds of writers not even born yet and be sure to fill all that stuff in.

Anyway, what they are likely to do, with the network recovering, is to take Georgiou's plan back 9 months and save the Federation.

Probably after an encounter with Captain Killy.

Edited by prometheus59650

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It's problems like this that made setting this show 10 years before TOS a bad idea. Spore drive would have fit in fine in the early 25th century, but here it's an anachronism. If they want to do something original that colors outside the lines of TOS, then people are going to say it's not canon. I agree, a Klingon victory in the war 10 years ago would have been mentioned by Kirk. This is a prime reboot in all but name. I didn't want prime rebooted, I wanted it to be built upon. 

Also, I have to question the decision to forcibly transport Georgiou to Discovery. I'm surprised that she didn't vaporize the transporter techs when she materialized. She is a dangerous individual and Burnham made a questionable, emotional decision.

Also, that better not be the end of Jason Isaacs on this show. I liked Lorca and Tyler, and now both seem to be sidelined. The rest of the crew I'm decidedly lukewarm towards and I don't really have a character to 'cheer' for now. 

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1 hour ago, Comiskeybum said:

  Lorca was clearly beamed away before he died.

Nope.

I watched the scene again. His skin pulled apart as he evaporated into mycelial  particles.

If he was beamed, it was with no beam we've seen thus far.

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If the Klingons presumably came so close and then lost the war...why would a race so bound by honor then go around mentioning such a pathetic defeat?  I'll wait to see how it all plays out before I decree they have failed us all. I was unsure about elements of the show, and the Mirror storyline kind of put a lot of them to bed for me...it changed the context, so I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt. Canon in Trek is full of holes, has been since TOS.  Things don't always gel, and you can either find ways to make it work, or drive yourself crazy. 

I rather enjoyed tonight's episode. It was a big action movie with some good bits along the way. After his speech and behavior in the chair, I am fully on team Saru for Captain now. 

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6 minutes ago, Hammer said:

Also, I have to question the decision to forcibly transport Georgiou to Discovery. I'm surprised that she didn't vaporize the transporter techs when she materialized. She is a dangerous individual and Burnham made a questionable, emotional decision.

Whether it was a good idea or not, I knew Burnam would do exactly that.

2 minutes ago, kenman said:

Canon in Trek is full of holes, has been since TOS.  Things don't always gel, and you can either find ways to make it work, or drive yourself crazy. 

This all around.

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39 minutes ago, kenman said:

If the Klingons presumably came so close and then lost the war...why would a race so bound by honor then go around mentioning such a pathetic defeat?  I'll wait to see how it all plays out before I decree they have failed us all. I was unsure about elements of the show, and the Mirror storyline kind of put a lot of them to bed for me...it changed the context, so I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt. Canon in Trek is full of holes, has been since TOS.  Things don't always gel, and you can either find ways to make it work, or drive yourself crazy. 

I rather enjoyed tonight's episode. It was a big action movie with some good bits along the way. After his speech and behavior in the chair, I am fully on team Saru for Captain now. 

No one forced them to paint themselves into a corner when it comes to canon. They made the decision on setting, it was more important to have their main character be somehow connected to Spock than it was for the tech to make sense or the story to gel with canon. They deserve criticism for this. Maybe there will be some kind of reset which erases the spore drive and Klingon war victory from future memory, but why would the writers put themselves in the position of undoing everything they wrote? This is looking more like a prime reboot, something that was not sold to the fans, and something that I suspect the fans didn't want going into this series. Sure, it's been an entertaining show, but the inconsistencies are frustrating as a fan when you try to fit this into your 'head' canon when all of this could have been avoided by setting it at a different time and by not trying to ride Spock's coattails. 

Edited by Hammer

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5 minutes ago, Hammer said:

No one forced them to paint themselves into a corner when it comes to canon.

Can't really say they're in one yet.

 

6 minutes ago, Hammer said:

This is looking more like a prime reboot, something that was not sold to the fans, and something that I suspect the fans didn't want going into this series. Sure, it's been an entertaining show, but the inconsistencies are frustrating as a fan when you try to fit this into your 'head' canon when all of this could have been avoided by setting it at a different time and by not trying to ride Spock's coattails. 

Not knocking anyone that does for doing so, but, after watching these shows for nearly all of my nearly 50 years, I guess, when push comes to shove, I don't care enough to fight over it.

At any rate, so far, nothing really doesn't fit to me.

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I will never understand the tendency of fandoms (and this is not directed at anyone in particular or even just this fandom), to get so wrapped up in the canon and continuity that even if they are enjoying a thing they are made by some inconsistencies.

Look I agree in many ways that setting it prior to Kirk was a pretty dumb mistake.  There is no reason this show coudn't have taken place far beyond the 30th century or something. The Spore Drive and a War with a Klingon Empire that has lost it's way yet again could easily have worked in a later scenario.  Why they went 10 years before the original I don't know.  But do I care about the inconsistencies now that they have done that?  Eh...I mean if the show was still only mildly entertaining (as it kind of was for most of the first half), I might be inclined to get more frustrated about tech or other silly things...but since the show has become QUITE entertaining, I'll take the rough with the smooth. 

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7 minutes ago, kenman said:

I will never understand the tendency of fandoms (and this is not directed at anyone in particular or even just this fandom), to get so wrapped up in the canon and continuity that even if they are enjoying a thing they are made by some inconsistencies.

Look I agree in many ways that setting it prior to Kirk was a pretty dumb mistake.  There is no reason this show coudn't have taken place far beyond the 30th century or something. The Spore Drive and a War with a Klingon Empire that has lost it's way yet again could easily have worked in a later scenario.  Why they went 10 years before the original I don't know.  But do I care about the inconsistencies now that they have done that?  Eh...I mean if the show was still only mildly entertaining (as it kind of was for most of the first half), I might be inclined to get more frustrated about tech or other silly things...but since the show has become QUITE entertaining, I'll take the rough with the smooth. 

Even if they do take Discovery back 9 months and undo the majority of the war, these things still happened to Burnam and the crew. They've still grown and changed and are better prepared for whatever comes next. Since the producers have implied that, at least for Burnam, that's sort of the whole point of the show...mission accomplished for season one.

But I do not understand this calling of foul, in that, because someone didn't say in a show 50 years ago, "There was a big, huge war with the Klingons ten years before this," that there WASN'T one.

I mean, if you want to go by what was mentioned as all there is, in Kirk's time there were only about 20 ships in all of Starfleet. 

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3 minutes ago, kenman said:

I will never understand the tendency of fandoms (and this is not directed at anyone in particular or even just this fandom), to get so wrapped up in the canon and continuity that even if they are enjoying a thing they are made by some inconsistencies.

Look I agree in many ways that setting it prior to Kirk was a pretty dumb mistake.  There is no reason this show coudn't have taken place far beyond the 30th century or something. The Spore Drive and a War with a Klingon Empire that has lost it's way yet again could easily have worked in a later scenario.  Why they went 10 years before the original I don't know.  But do I care about the inconsistencies now that they have done that?  Eh...I mean if the show was still only mildly entertaining (as it kind of was for most of the first half), I might be inclined to get more frustrated about tech or other silly things...but since the show has become QUITE entertaining, I'll take the rough with the smooth. 

I think that they really wanted that Spock connection with the main character, but they can't let TOS legends like Spock be a crutch. Picard didn't have family ties to Kirk but he still thrived as the main protagonist. 

Is the show entertaining? Absolutely. Are the events occurring in the show something that happened in the same universe as the other 5 series? I have a hard time seeing how at this point unless there is some kind of giant reset button. Yes, I want them to forge new ground and I don't want the barrier to entry of watching this show be that viewing the previous 5 series is a prerequisite, but I don't like being told that the events of the 5 series don't matter anymore just because a shiny new toy comes along. 

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At the very least, we got a reasonable explanation for the weird design of the Terran Flag ship.  It was indeed reasonable and one of a kind and I can now live with it.  

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5 hours ago, prometheus59650 said:

Nope.

I watched the scene again. His skin pulled apart as he evaporated into mycelial  particles.

If he was beamed, it was with no beam we've seen thus far.

Plenty of room for an out if they want to use Mr Isaacs again. “I thought I was dead but something strange happened to me when I fell into the mycelial core...” Genesis Planet and all that jazz. The Klingon conquest ending was a saving grace of an episode with very predictable beats. “I will kill you/No, I will kill *you*”. Why bother playing out the scene? It would only have been interesting if Georgiou’s prediction had not come true, the above notwithstanding. I hope they find a way to keep the characters interesting. Early days for the series yet, though. If this was TOS we’d only be up to Conscience of the King. 

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As for the sneak peak of next week's episode:

The Federation isn't completely defeated. It's quite likely that Mirror Discovery has been wreaking havoc on the Federation. No doubt Captain Killy's attitude to the Federation wasn't much different from the Emperor's. They may have been the greater threat than the Klingons. I think Prime crew is being mistaken for the Terrans.

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18 minutes ago, Yorick said:

Plenty of room for an out if they want to use Mr Isaacs again. “I thought I was dead but something strange happened to me when I fell into the mycelial core...” Genesis Planet and all that jazz

Oh, they can. You can undo pretty much anything. I'm just pretty sure they're not going to. This Lorca though, right now, is quite dead.

18 minutes ago, Hammer said:

As for the sneak peak of next week's episode:

 

  Hide contents

The Federation isn't completely defeated. It's quite likely that Mirror Discovery has been wreaking havoc on the Federation. No doubt Captain Killy's attitude to the Federation wasn't much different from the Emperor's. They may have been the greater threat than the Klingons. I think Prime crew is being mistaken for the Terrans.

 

Probably completely true, particularly given that Cornwell is not happy to see them.

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9 hours ago, Enterprise Discovery said:

I'm still hoping for a prime reality Lorca by the end of Season 1 and/or in Season 2. However, Saru was great in leading the Discovery.

Agreed.

Like Michelle Yeoh’s return as Emperor Georgiou, I’m hoping that wasn’t the last we see of Jason Isaacs.   While I loved Saru rising to command, I will miss that wily b@stard Lorca...

8 hours ago, scenario said:

spoilers:

 

 

 

 

 

A major war that destroyed 1/3 of the Federation 10 years before TOS just wasn't mentioned at all. I can't buy it. 

I have a problem with that as well.

Unless they timey-wimey their way out of it.

 

My blog post on the episode: https://musingsofamiddleagedgeek.blog/2018/01/28/star-trek-discovery-s1-12-whats-past-is-prologue/

8 hours ago, scenario said:

Two ways they can fix it. This is not the TOS universe but a closely related universe or they use the spore drive to go back in time and stop the war from happening. I can't think of another way to keep this canon. All the episodes where Kirk and the Klingon's talk and not one of them said something like we almost got you 10 years ago...

Or... as I’ve long speculated, this really isn’t the prime universe after all, but rather a stop along the way....? 

I’m not convinced that ENT or any post-“First Contact” movie/TV show really takes place in the 'prime universe' anyway...

We’ll see. 

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What interests me is the deliberate shot of the mycelium particle loving them some Cadet Tilly.

I mean, I understand the sentiment, :) but something is afoot.

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Since I don't watch the "scenes from next week's episode," I'm just popping in for a minute.  I'm mostly avoiding this place so as to avoid spoilers.  (I'll pop in again later to see if anyone followed up anything I said, but I'm not reading the whole thread -- even though I really, really want to -- so as not to hear about those scenes from next week.)

Something I enjoyed about this episode that I haven't seen anyone else mention:  At the end of "Mirror, Mirror," Kirk tries to talk Mirror Spock into rebelling against the Empire by saying that a government based on tyranny cannot endure.  And in this episode, Lorca tries to talk Burnham into joining him by telling her that a government based on idealism cannot endure.  I thought it was a brilliant callback to "Mirror, Mirror" to reverse the direction of the speech and have a Mirror character tell a Prime character that THEIR government is doomed to failure!  (I disagree, of course, but that doesn't keep me from admiring the parallel.)

My husband and I both found over-the-top evil Lorca way less interesting and way less compelling than Stealth Mirror Lorca.  I thought watching Lorca trying to contain his evil, only to have it leak out from time to time, was way more interesting than having him be openly evil.  Some of you probably remember how much I adore Spock. :biggrin:  It occurs to me that part of what I enjoyed about Lorca -- until this episode -- is a similar dynamic.  Spock is trying to contain his emotions, but we see hints of them that tell us there's a LOT more under there.  Stealth Mirror Lorca was trying to contain his evil, but we see hints of it that tell us there's a LOT more under there.  The difference -- for me, at least -- is that I enjoyed Spock's fully letting go in episodes like "This Side of Paradise" more than I enjoyed watching Lorca fully let go in the current episode.  But then, I like emotions better than evil. :)

Michelle Yeoh!  Damn, the lady still has it!  Just HOW high can she kick?  I usually just put up with the TOS fight scenes, because I knew the network thought the show needed some hand-to-hand combat to attract viewers, so the sometimes-laughable fight scenes were just the show paying its dues to the network.  But the Shatner Flying Kick is not as interesting -- to me, at least -- as the Yeoh Mile-High Kick.  IMDB says she's 55 years old?  Geeze, that's amazing!

Doug Jones manages to act his socks off even when his entire head is encased in rubber.  The guy's a genius.  Saru has stepped up really well, and it's nice to see the bridge crew beginning to jell and beginning to look to Saru as their leader.  He's come a long way from the guy who had to look up how to lead in the computer!

I was actually crying during the part where Georgiou was giving Burnham time to escape, facing down all those people alone; I didn't think I could stand to watch Georgiou die a second time.  But of course she didn't. :inlove:  At least, not yet. ;)  And shades of "The Enterprise Incident," to have one person piggyback on another's transport.  I have to wonder what Saru is going to have to say about Burnham's bringing Mirror Georgiou back with her.  I mean, he misses Prime Georgiou, too, but this is NOT Prime Georgiou.  I have to say that Burnham's Vulcan logic seems to be melting faster than an ice cube in hell. :P

All in all, a fun episode, and one where I thought Burnham and Georgiou really shone.  Makes losing Lorca a little bit easier to bear. 

 

Edited by Corylea

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53 minutes ago, Corylea said:

Michelle Yeoh!  Damn, the lady still has it!  Just HOW high can she kick?  I usually just put up with the TOS fight scenes, because I knew the network thought the show needed some hand-to-hand combat to attract viewers, so the sometimes-laughable fight scenes were just the show paying its dues to the network.  But the Shatner Flying Kick is not as interesting -- to me, at least -- as the Yeoh Mile-High Kick.  IMDB says she's 55 years old?  Geeze, that's amazing!

Yeoh is godly. Even Issacs was awed by her, equating his own work on the fight scenes to that of a drunken hippo by comparison. But, damn, it looks like she hasn't lost a step in 30 years.

 

58 minutes ago, Corylea said:

  I have to wonder what Saru is going to have to say about Burnham's bringing Mirror Georgiou back with her.

Very little good, I imagine, when he finds out that Georgiou is very fond of Saru...bathed in a sweet and sour sauce. :)

But I absolutely knew Burnam would jump to save her. She just couldn't make herself watch Georgiou die again.

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So, who is the Emperor of the MU Terran Empire now? There's a major power vacuum now. I guess we likely won't be finding out unless they send Georgiou back. 

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8 hours ago, Corylea said:

My husband and I both found over-the-top evil Lorca way less interesting and way less compelling than Stealth Mirror Lorca. 

I found Stealth Mirror-Lorca far more interesting as well; he was more Die Hard’s Hans Gruber than the generic Bond villain he wound up being at the very end.   A shame; I thought he had the potential for being one of the most clever captains ever... he had to survive in an enlightened universe; like a tiger living among house cats.  But the fact that he got as far as he did without raising suspicion was amazing... even Spock in TOS doubted such a thing could be done (his line to Kirk in “Mirror, Mirror” about how a mirror-universe ‘barbarian’ most likely couldn’t hack it in the prime universe).

8 hours ago, Corylea said:

Michelle Yeoh!  Damn, the lady still has it!  Just HOW high can she kick?  I usually just put up with the TOS fight scenes, because I knew the network thought the show needed some hand-to-hand combat to attract viewers, so the sometimes-laughable fight scenes were just the show paying its dues to the network.  But the Shatner Flying Kick is not as interesting -- to me, at least -- as the Yeoh Mile-High Kick.  IMDB says she's 55 years old?  Geeze, that's amazing!

Some of her kicks looked like full splits; 180 degrees from ground to face.   She is just... awe inspiring.  She’s a good 3-4 years older than me, and I can barely raise my legs to get on the exercise bike sometimes. :laugh:

8 hours ago, Corylea said:

Doug Jones manages to act his socks off even when his entire head is encased in rubber.  The guy's a genius.  Saru has stepped up really well, and it's nice to see the bridge crew beginning to jell and beginning to look to Saru as their leader.  He's come a long way from the guy who had to look up how to lead in the computer!

I’ve been a fan of his since the first “Hellboy” movie; my wife and I had the pleasure of meeting him at 2012 Comic Con, and he was such a gentleman.  He just talked to us at length.  No rush.   He told us how he learned Spanish phonetically for “Pan’s Labyrinth” (no dubbing) and about his long career in mime (he has a book out too).  

I told him that (to me) he was a latter-day Lon Chaney; a man of a thousand faces.  He was flattered, but I wasn’t flattering... I was being sincere.   When I heard he was in Star Trek, I was over-the-moon.  I knew he’d rock it, and despite the relatively meager airtime for Saru, last night he REALLY became the captain.

8 hours ago, Corylea said:

All in all, a fun episode, and one where I thought Burnham and Georgiou really shone.  Makes losing Lorca a little bit easier to bear. 

I still miss Lorca... but not the Lorca who died last night.   The shadier, J.R. Ewing in Space version of Lorca.

And was it just me (or my sound system), but did anyone else hear a trace of a  Star Wars TIE fighter sound effect as Lorca fell into the orb?    So help me, I heard it...

 

Got to the :12 mark on the video

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37 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

And was it just me (or my sound system), but did anyone else hear a trace of a  Star Wars TIE fighter sound effect as Lorca fell into the orb?    So help me, I heard it...

I don't think it was just you. I got that hint.

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Look at you all! Believing the lies, going exactly where they want you to go! How naive can you all be? LORCA IS NOT DEAD! I remain loyal to the only true emperor of our great Terram Empire! ALL HAIL LORCA! LORCA LIVES!

:laugh: Ok joking aside I did get upset about Lorca's fate, I was expecting him to be the good guy and I didn't like what they did with him. I don't care how manipulative he is, his actions on Discovery don't match what the writers want us to believe. Lorca didn't have to save Sarek neither did he have to fight the Klingon war. I still think he trully wanted the federation to win.

Second thing: I was REALLY disappointed by the war not have ended already. When they said the 9 months thing I was certain they would have realized that by then the war would be over. Didn't they say season two would be about something other than the Klingon war? Are htey going to end the war in two episodes? What the hell? 

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Just saw the episode. Holly shnikies! That was DSC's mike drop moment. All the critics and naysayers... "bow to the emperor."

It's not necessarily my favorite of the season--well hell maybe it is... it's just that this ep is extremely proficient at things that Trek has often struggled to pull off. 1) action that is equally freighted with character motivations that made sense and that we actually care about; 2) kick ass action on a grand scale (the Bad Robot movies never achieved this level of bad-assery in a way that made me care or believe in it); 3) a solution that was a mix of personal sacrifice and Starfleet technical brilliance, with a dash of technobabble that was a lot more concrete and believable than the usual magic quantum words (using warp drive to outrun the explosion while synching it with the Micilium was rooted enough concrete detail to make it not feel like a cheat); 4) all of it was shot through with amazing themes 

None of this is easy and Im hard pressed to think of a Trek series or even a film that has pulled it off so well. This was a major achievement. And it's not even the season finale!           

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22 hours ago, Hammer said:

No one forced them to paint themselves into a corner when it comes to canon. They made the decision on setting, it was more important to have their main character be somehow connected to Spock than it was for the tech to make sense or the story to gel with canon. They deserve criticism for this. Maybe there will be some kind of reset which erases the spore drive and Klingon war victory from future memory, but why would the writers put themselves in the position of undoing everything they wrote? This is looking more like a prime reboot, something that was not sold to the fans, and something that I suspect the fans didn't want going into this series. Sure, it's been an entertaining show, but the inconsistencies are frustrating as a fan when you try to fit this into your 'head' canon when all of this could have been avoided by setting it at a different time and by not trying to ride Spock's coattails. 

Im as much a fan as you, and I just don't see any inconsistencies. Not a single one that matters. The lack of future use of the spore drive will be explained--there are half a dozen easy justifications we can imagine for Starfleet shutting down the program before TOS.  As for the Klingon "victory" it seems obvious to me that the writers will fix this by having the DISCO jump back in time in the next episode to end the war before it gets that far.  

We're a long way from the Spock coattails argument. If you think all this show is doing is tapping into TOS nostalgia, you're not seeing the same qualities in it that I am.

I continue to believe that DSC is not a reboot, that it is set in the Prime timeline, that Kirk and Spock are reading the same news reports as Burnham is. And my head canon (and TOS rewatch) is all the happier for it.      

21 hours ago, prometheus59650 said:

I mean, if you want to go by what was mentioned as all there is, in Kirk's time there were only about 20 ships in all of Starfleet. 

In Tomorrow is Yesterday Kirk says that there are 12 ships in the fleet and they all look like the Enterprise. You know what: he "misspoke," in the parlance of politics. There might me 12 Constitutions class ships, but there is also a Discovery in Kirk's fleet and it don't look like the Enterprise.

21 hours ago, Hammer said:

I don't like being told that the events of the 5 series don't matter anymore just because a shiny new toy comes along. 

DSC does the opposite of this. It adds richness and new life the to other shows, especially TOS (and even the god awful ENT which to their credit they are not ignoring). So many TOS episodes carry new layers of meaning. For example, watch Arena. It's clear that Kirk is thinking about Burnham's decision at the Binary Stars, and this is just a coincidence tha the DSC writers never intended.   

Edited by Justin Snead

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