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prometheus59650

Episode 1.12 "Vaulting Ambition" Discussion Thread

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Opening this a bit early because someone in the Disqus portion of Trekcore posted a very intriguing theory, and, if true, could even throw Voqler for a loop:

 

Interesting ship name: ISS Charon. According to Wikipedia "is the ferryman of Hades who carries souls of the newly deceased across the rivers Styx and Acheron that divided the world of the living from the world of the dead."

I wonder if the ISS Charon is actually the Klingon Ship of the Dead that is now under Terran control and rebadged. :) Those sets look like they could easily be the old Ship of the Dead sets converted for the Emperor. Might explain why the Shenzhou couldn't see the ship as it was firing on the planet below.

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Seems plausible to me. That ship will likely be involved in some way if we're going to delve into any Voqler resolutions involving (whatever remains of) Prime and/or Mirror Tyler.

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56 minutes ago, spectator said:

Seems plausible to me. That ship will likely be involved in some way if we're going to delve into any Voqler resolutions involving (whatever remains of) Prime and/or Mirror Tyler.

Hmm...in all of this, for some reason, the existence of mirror Tyler even existing hadn't even occurred to me.

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1 hour ago, prometheus59650 said:

Hmm...in all of this, for some reason, the existence of mirror Tyler even existing hadn't even occurred to me.

Wouldn't mirror Tyler be mirror Voq? Unless there was a prime Tyler that Voq replaced? I wasn't clear on whether they created Voqler a new identity altogether or if he just assumed the identity of a victim from the Battle of the Binary Stars.

 

3 hours ago, prometheus59650 said:

Opening this a bit early because someone in the Disqus portion of Trekcore posted a very intriguing theory, and, if true, could even throw Voqler for a loop:

 

Interesting ship name: ISS Charon. According to Wikipedia "is the ferryman of Hades who carries souls of the newly deceased across the rivers Styx and Acheron that divided the world of the living from the world of the dead."

I wonder if the ISS Charon is actually the Klingon Ship of the Dead that is now under Terran control and rebadged. :) Those sets look like they could easily be the old Ship of the Dead sets converted for the Emperor. Might explain why the Shenzhou couldn't see the ship as it was firing on the planet below.

Yeah, but Charon is also a moon of Pluto and Starfleet names their ships after Sol system objects all the time.

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22 minutes ago, Hammer said:

Unless there was a prime Tyler that Voq replaced? I

There may well be. I hadn't really considered it.

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On 18/01/2018 at 5:24 PM, Hammer said:

Wouldn't mirror Tyler be mirror Voq? Unless there was a prime Tyler that Voq replaced? I wasn't clear on whether they created Voqler a new identity altogether or if he just assumed the identity of a victim from the Battle of the Binary Stars.

 

Yeah, but Charon is also a moon of Pluto and Starfleet names their ships after Sol system objects all the time.

I got the impression that they had Prime Tyler’s body and they mutilated Voq to fit Tyler’s specifications.  He had to have originally been a real Starfleet officer.  I’m sure Lorca would have at least verified that.  The Discovery interpreted his scars to be remnants of Klingon torture.

 

On 18/01/2018 at 2:13 PM, prometheus59650 said:

Opening this a bit early because someone in the Disqus portion of Trekcore posted a very intriguing theory, and, if true, could even throw Voqler for a loop:

 

Interesting ship name: ISS Charon. According to Wikipedia "is the ferryman of Hades who carries souls of the newly deceased across the rivers Styx and Acheron that divided the world of the living from the world of the dead."

I wonder if the ISS Charon is actually the Klingon Ship of the Dead that is now under Terran control and rebadged. :) Those sets look like they could easily be the old Ship of the Dead sets converted for the Emperor. Might explain why the Shenzhou couldn't see the ship as it was firing on the planet below.

I assume by “barge of the dead” we are referring to the Klingon Sarcophagus ship and not that Voyager episode.  At any rate, I could see it happening if only to recycle those million dollar sets.  It would be a fitting flagship for an Empress.  

It would be interesting, but how does this throw Voqler for a loop?  So there’s a Sarcophagus ship in both universes?  I guess it raises the question of Mirror T’Kuvma and what he is up to.  If Voq is the leader of the rebels, what happened to T’Kuvma?

As for why we didn’t see the ship firing on the planet below, I’m pretty sure it was mentioned on Aftertrek that ... [SPOILER ALERT]

 

 

the ship firing on the planet was the ISS Defiant.  The torpedos had a distinctly TOS sound to them not like the Sarcophagus ship.

By the way, did anyone notice the gorn skeleton on board the ISS Shenzhou during Burnham’s talk with Lorca?  Why would that be there?  I guess Mirror Captain Burnham and Captain Lorca have similar decorating asthetics?  Or was Lorca in command of the Shenzhou when he rebelled against the Empress?

Edited by Locutus

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50 minutes ago, Locutus said:

but how does this throw Voqler for a loop?

Depending on how they play it out, it might help expose him to an alternate notion of Klingon philosophy not T'Kuvma's in something similar to Kirk's speech to Spock in the Transporter Room.

At this point though, I don't know that we'll be seeing much Voqler, at least this week. It looks like it's gonna be all Georgiou and Stamets. 

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1 hour ago, prometheus59650 said:

At this point though, I don't know that we'll be seeing much Voqler, at least this week. It looks like it's gonna be all Georgiou and Stamets. 

And... I’m perfectly okay with that. :happy:

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25 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

And... I’m perfectly okay with that. :happy:

Me, too. I'm pretty much done with Voqler....except watching his horrible death.

 

16 minutes ago, Mutai Sho-Rin said:

Needs more Tilly!

 Well, of course it does. I adore her. :)

Edited by prometheus59650

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On story possibilities, if the Macbeth quote title is to be taken as a guide, in the scene in which it is spoken, Macbeth is ruminating on his plan to kill Duncan to become king. He just about talks himself out of the idea when Lady Macbeth comes upon him and talks/goads him back into it. Of course, we know how well that turned out for the two of them. Whose “vaulting ambition” will it be in the episode that o’er leaps itself and falls?

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3 hours ago, prometheus59650 said:

Depending on how they play it out, it might help expose him to an alternate notion of Klingon philosophy not T'Kuvma's in something similar to Kirk's speech to Spock in the Transporter Room.

At this point though, I don't know that we'll be seeing much Voqler, at least this week. It looks like it's gonna be all Georgiou and Stamets. 

That would be interesting.  

1 hour ago, prometheus59650 said:

Me, too. I'm pretty much done with Voqler....except watching his horrible death.

I’m pretty much over that plotline as well.  I want them to push the Stamets and Lorca plots further.  And of course, as much of Michelle Yeoh as possible!  I’m also curious if we will see a time jump forward by the end of the season like the Tholians did that captured the USS Defiant.

Edited by Locutus

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23 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

No, we need more Leather Lorca! *waves Leather Lorca flag* :P

That too, of course... :P

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Another week, another fan theory confirmed re: Lorca.

No, we aren't done with Voqler. Apparently there was a prime Tyler, and he was a casualty of the Battle of Binary Stars. I'm still unclear on why they needed to break his bones if his consciousness was just over-ridden. I thought this was Voq's body transformed into human.

Stamets switcheroo? What could possibly go wrong?

Also, a cringy scene while dining with Georgiou. Burnham is never going to look at Saru the same way again. Burnham picking the Kelpien was also a tough scene to watch. She obviously didn't assume she was picking who would be for diner.

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7 minutes ago, Hammer said:

Another week, another fan theory confirmed re: Lorca.

No, we aren't done with Voqler. Apparently there was a prime Tyler, and he was a casualty of the Battle of Binary Stars. I'm still unclear on why they needed to break his bones if his consciousness was just over-ridden. I thought this was Voq's body transformed into human.

Stamets switcheroo? What could possibly go wrong?

Also, a cringy scene while dining with Georgiou. Burnham is never going to look at Saru the same way again. Burnham picking the Kelpien was also a tough scene to watch. She obviously didn't assume she was picking who would be for diner.

In regards to Voqler:  she said they took the original Tyler's DNA and his memory and placed it over Voq's own mind, and they did transform Voq's body to match the body of Tyler.  But the original Tyler's mind was placed over top of Voq...so the Tyler that was killed could find a new way to live via Voq's transformed body.  Which is certainly a mess of a way to live your life. 

Also I loved the Stamet's switch and glad they didn't drag the Lorca reveal any further.  Loved that when he didn't at first say the girl's name they had me actually questioning whether the theory was correct...and then it all comes together in the end.  I'm INTO this show right now. Every week I am excited to see where it leads.  Until the mid-season finale I don't think I was ever as into during the first half of the season, but this Mirror section has not only been quite entertaining, but it is making elements of those earlier episodes better in retrospect!

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On 1/20/2018 at 3:37 PM, Yorick said:

On story possibilities, if the Macbeth quote title is to be taken as a guide, in the scene in which it is spoken, Macbeth is ruminating on his plan to kill Duncan to become king. He just about talks himself out of the idea when Lady Macbeth comes upon him and talks/goads him back into it. Of course, we know how well that turned out for the two of them. Whose “vaulting ambition” will it be in the episode that o’er leaps itself and falls?

extreme side note, but as someone who has taught that play many times I should have caught the line. Anyway, I dont watch ENT but I heard a clip on a podcast that Mirror Phlox said that Shakespeare was the same in both universes, and so it makes sense that the Emperor would be quoting Macbeth.  

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Well dam.... this episode... dont know what to say.

First. Full Stop. I loved the Culber scenes. That was just beautifully done in all respects. 

As people here know I love this Trek series and do not nitpick like some who are more skeptical. I am fully along for the journey. But one of the jarring things for me is the way the serialized narrative is so different from what we are used to. "Vaulting Ambition" feels like one part plot-thread-tie-up and one part set-up for the next episode. There were bits that were good, even great like the Culber/Stamets scene, but it doenst cohere as its own 45 minute story. I can't help thinking that in previous series the Culber/Stamets scenes would have gotten an entire 45 minutes. I was also hoping that the mirror and Prime Stamets interaction would have been more interesting than it turned out to be--it feels like they are just minor cogs in a larger story next week about the Emperor. Not every episode FEELS like this, and the pay off episodes are always great, so I'm still along for the ride. But still, this type of narrative means that the ultimate judgment can't happen until the last episode of the season. Will we say that this was all worth it? I hope so. But with each week the stakes get higher and the chances that it could all fall apart seem to grow.    

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Well there are a number of questions I do have to wonder about. First off, how did mirror-Lorca cross over into the Prime universe? And for that matter, what is Lorca Prime like? Is he stuck in the mirror universe?

And what is mirror-Stamets up to? I wonder if one of his goals is to use the spore drive on the ISS Charon (if it does have a spore drive) to take that ship into the Prime universe.

Man, I've never seen the Terran Empire as dark as it is here. They cook Kelpians for food?! Not to mention of course flesh-destroying parasitic DNA.

They're sure not holding back the punches here.

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One thing I appreciate, even if it is, at times, supremely uncomfortable, the MU is genuinely evil.

In DS9, last MU episodes were tongue firmly in cheek.

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