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prometheus59650

Episode 1.12 "Vaulting Ambition" Discussion Thread

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3 minutes ago, Justin Snead said:

I don't expect Isaacs to return as a regular. We'll hopefully get another riveting actor playing a different but equally compelling character. 

When I think about it, Lorca had to be dispensed with. He was just too powerful a presence, and his identity too much based on secret intentions and manipulations that he could not be the regular captain of his ship for the full series. Think about those episodes where he is not allowed to plot or manipulate or be a badass--he looks bored to death, which I guess he is. We are left wanting him to be his devious self, but that won't fit into every episode. No, Lorca has got to go. But hopefully he can pop in from time to time.  

But that's MIRROR Lorca.  We could meet PRIME Lorca as an entirely new character and still get the benefit of Isaacs' tremendous acting skills.

 

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I didn't know about the Macbeth title. Neat.

This episode:

Honestly, while it was dramatic and had interesting moments, I agree with the people who dislike the sheer cruelty of it all. The dinner scene? The graphic murdering? Also, that really disturbing reveal regarding Lorca and the mirror version of Michael.

(Obviously, cruel and dark story elements happen in television shows, and sometimes they're handled well, so I'm not against them in principle or anything. I'm just not sure if the episode needed some of that stuff, as other people have also noted.)

The Stamets stuff wasn't bad, though. I'm also mildly curious about how the Ash situation will turn out.

 

Edited by Explorer3

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5 hours ago, spectator said:

I don't want Star Trek production to be a democracy, but if it were, I'd vote for this, too.

:thumbup:

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Surely Burnham knows that she can't make a deal with the Emperor if the spore drive schematics are on the bargaining table. Georgiou would jump over to the Prime Universe now that the rebels are dealt with and take out the threat that the Federation poses with its ideals.

Apparently, that wasn't Mirror Landry that we saw get killed by Ripper. In the preview of next weeks episode, Mirror Lorca is talking to Mirror Landry, presumably freshly released from her agonizer booth in the cargo hold. Maybe she's just aggressive in both universes.

 

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I've read on TrekMovie that it was speculated that apparently, Jason Isaacs had a lifecast made of his head to make a prosthetic one for a scene where Lorca would be written off the series. :( If so, I really hope that we get to see the prime Lorca for the rest of the series. He's too interesting a character for him to just be written of the show so simply and soon after being revealed to be from the mirror universe.

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9 hours ago, Hammer said:

Surely Burnham knows that she can't make a deal with the Emperor if the spore drive schematics are on the bargaining table.

Right now they have to be because, while Burnam surely knows that the spore drive would be dangerous in the hands of the Empire, the fact is that they are all still alive because of the Emperor's whim.

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10 hours ago, Hammer said:

Surely Burnham knows that she can't make a deal with the Emperor if the spore drive schematics are on the bargaining table. Georgiou would jump over to the Prime Universe now that the rebels are dealt with and take out the threat that the Federation poses with its ideals.

But remember when Harry Mudd tried to steal the spore drive?  It doesn't WORK without either Prime Stamets or the tardigrade.  Mirror Stamets wouldn't work with it if he hasn't been tardigraded.  (God, I love English -- you can make a verb out of anything!)

I'm sure Burnham remembers how they worked a scam on Harry Mudd, so she can give the emperor plans, and as long as Georgiou doesn't have a tardigrade or a tardigraded crew member, they won't do her any good.

They just have to make sure she doesn't realize that Prime Stamets is the missing piece!

 

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6 hours ago, Corylea said:

But remember when Harry Mudd tried to steal the spore drive?  It doesn't WORK without either Prime Stamets or the tardigrade.  Mirror Stamets wouldn't work with it if he hasn't been tardigraded.  (God, I love English -- you can make a verb out of anything!)

^   Good point.   

And that is precisely why the spore drive technology is on the table as a bargaining chip; it’s useless to anyone outside of the Disco crew.

I keep reading people on other sites saying that Burnham was ‘weak’ to give up the spore drive.  On the contrary; that was very clever, IMO...

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45 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

And that is precisely why the spore drive technology is on the table as a bargaining chip; it’s useless to anyone outside of the Disco crew.

I keep reading people on other sites saying that Burnham was ‘weak’ to give up the spore drive.  On the contrary; that was very clever, IMO...

Exactly!  She knows it's useless by itself -- she's even had PRACTICE with how useless it is by itself.  That makes her smart or sly to use it as a bargaining chip but not weak.

Some people think anything a woman does is automatically weak, even if they're just too stupid to understand what she's doing. :whack:

 

Edited by Corylea

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8 hours ago, Corylea said:

But remember when Harry Mudd tried to steal the spore drive?  It doesn't WORK without either Prime Stamets or the tardigrade.  Mirror Stamets wouldn't work with it if he hasn't been tardigraded.  (God, I love English -- you can make a verb out of anything!)

I'm sure Burnham remembers how they worked a scam on Harry Mudd, so she can give the emperor plans, and as long as Georgiou doesn't have a tardigrade or a tardigraded crew member, they won't do her any good.

They just have to make sure she doesn't realize that Prime Stamets is the missing piece!

 

Is he the missing piece? Mirror Stamets was strolling around in the Mycelial network too and Burnham has no idea. Georgiou may have been bluffing because she knew that Mirror Stamets was in a coma so her drive was out of commission at the moment. It's possible that she didn't want to tip her hand that she already knew about the spore drive because she didn't know how they mapped their way to the mirror universe and wants to find out.

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On 1/24/2018 at 7:52 PM, Hammer said:

Is he the missing piece? Mirror Stamets was strolling around in the Mycelial network too and Burnham has no idea. Georgiou may have been bluffing because she knew that Mirror Stamets was in a coma so her drive was out of commission at the moment. It's possible that she didn't want to tip her hand that she already knew about the spore drive because she didn't know how they mapped their way to the mirror universe and wants to find out.

She also did not want to be chopped in half by Georgiou's sword. I read the decision as her getting out of one bit of trouble hoping that she can get out of the consequences of the reveal when the time comes. I mean it was the ONLY thing she could say to stop her execution. 

Edited by Justin Snead

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I'm rewatching when Discovery entered the mirror universe and they say that it is likely that Mirror Discovery and Discovery switched places. What is Mirror Discovery doing with Captain Killy in charge in our universe? This is a ship whose crew loves to fight. I can see them being an absolutely ruthless Klingon killing machine. 

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11 minutes ago, scenario said:

I'm rewatching when Discovery entered the mirror universe and they say that it is likely that Mirror Discovery and Discovery switched places. What is Mirror Discovery doing with Captain Killy in charge in our universe? This is a ship whose crew loves to fight. I can see them being an absolutely ruthless Klingon killing machine. 

 

2 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

Good question.

Since Lorca seems to have jumped into the mirror universe on purpose, it wouldn't surprise me if both versions of the Discovery are still there. It's not like when Kirk switched places with his mirror self. This was on purpose and since things aren't as similar as they were for Kirk, this may be a possibility.

Edited by Enterprise Discovery

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On 23/1/2018 at 6:52 PM, Corylea said:

But that's MIRROR Lorca.  We could meet PRIME Lorca as an entirely new character and still get the benefit of Isaacs' tremendous acting skills.

 

Exactly!!!

unless Isaacs had not had plans to stay too long in the franchise...

perhaps when he knew  for how long would he play Lorca he signed the contract. 

😭 leaving us poor suckers so  frustrated

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From "Despite Yourself" 21:30

"Okay, what intel do we have?"

"Scanning records from the core download..Wait..The rebel logs show their ships being attacked by a warp signature matching our Discovery, but, with a quantum signature matching this universe. ... That signature seems to have vanished at the same coordinates where we popped in. So, it is possible we switched places with their Discovery. 

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They get back home and no one believes the mirror universe exists and Burnham is a mutineer and Tilly is a war criminal. 

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Since Burnham knows the Defiant crew will die in her future, doesn't she have an obligation to stop this? By creating some sort of classified log that will be opened just before the events of "The Tholian Web." If she does this and is successful--or rather if the writers of DSC strongly suggest she will do this, or better yet actually depicts her doing it--won't this mean that a canonical episode of TOS will cease to exist, at least in the Prime timeline? Or does it mean that "Tholian Web" will remain Prime and everything after DSC leaves the mirror universe will be an alternate timeline even though no time travel will have taken place? Ahh I feel the quantum headache coming on.    

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1 hour ago, Justin Snead said:

By creating some sort of classified log that will be opened just before the events of "The Tholian Web."

Why does she have an obligation to stop it? Isn't the Defiant MEANT to go back? How do we know that, if the Defiant doesn't go back, it doesn't create a negative chain in the primeline?

Maybe McCoy's cure for the effects of Tholian space is the basis for treatments for all sorts of biological/biochemical nerve agents. Or a new class of anesthetics? Or even new psychotherapy drugs. 

Things that now will not happen Because Burnam will have prevented the ship from going through the interphasic rift as they were meant to. What if a now saved Defiant inadvertently starts a war with the Romulans or something because that crew is now in a specific time and place that they wouldn't have been otherwise?

Everyone is best off if primeline Discovery leaves and leaves the MU as untouched as possible.

Edited by prometheus59650

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1 hour ago, Justin Snead said:

Since Burnham knows the Defiant crew will die in her future, doesn't she have an obligation to stop this? By creating some sort of classified log that will be opened just before the events of "The Tholian Web." If she does this and is successful--or rather if the writers of DSC strongly suggest she will do this, or better yet actually depicts her doing it--won't this mean that a canonical episode of TOS will cease to exist, at least in the Prime timeline? Or does it mean that "Tholian Web" will remain Prime and everything after DSC leaves the mirror universe will be an alternate timeline even though no time travel will have taken place? Ahh I feel the quantum headache coming on.    

 

17 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

Why does she have an obligation to stop it? Isn't the Defiant MEANT to go back? How do we know that, if the Defiant doesn't go back, it doesn't create a negative chain in the primeline?

Maybe McCoy's cure for the effects of Tholian space is the basis for treatments for all sorts of biological/biochemical nerve agents. Or a new class of anesthetics? Or even new psychotherapy drugs. 

Things that now will not happen Because Burnam will have prevented the ship from going through the interphasic rift as they were meant to. What if a now saved Defiant inadvertently starts a war with the Romulans or something because that crew is now in a specific time and place that they wouldn't have been otherwise?

Everyone is best off if primeline Discovery leaves and leaves the MU as untouched as possible.

It would be really interesting to see the Discovery and the Defiant return to the prime universe. However, it'd be great if the Defiant jumped into the future, past Star Trek Nemesis. Maybe the Discovery does, as well. That'd return the Defiant to its own universe, as well as set up Season 2 for guest roles from past character. I think that it'd be interesting to see Riker and the Titan. Maybe at the end of the Season 1 finale.

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What usually happens is that Burnham tries but fails. The Defiant's captain reads the letter but goes anyway because they believe they have to to save peoples lives.

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1 hour ago, prometheus59650 said:

Why does she have an obligation to stop it? Isn't the Defiant MEANT to go back? How do we know that, if the Defiant doesn't go back, it doesn't create a negative chain in the primeline?

Maybe McCoy's cure for the effects of Tholian space is the basis for treatments for all sorts of biological/biochemical nerve agents. Or a new class of anesthetics? Or even new psychotherapy drugs. 

Things that now will not happen Because Burnam will have prevented the ship from going through the interphasic rift as they were meant to. What if a now saved Defiant inadvertently starts a war with the Romulans or something because that crew is now in a specific time and place that they wouldn't have been otherwise?

Everyone is best off if primeline Discovery leaves and leaves the MU as untouched as possible.

Picard had an answer to this: "Because YOUR past is MY future, and as far as Im concerned it hasn't been written yet." 

Other than that TNG ep, which was a fake out in the end, this has never happened before in Trek: where someone from your future goes back in time to your past, and you learn about the effects of that before you reach the point of the original time jump. It would be fun for DSC to play this out. And sense the Defiant appears to not be the actual way they get home from the MU, and thus a red herring for Lorca to get to the Emperor, maybe the fate of the Defiant will be a lager thread in the series going forward. 

Another problem is how it would affect their own timeline. If the defiant never jumps back in time, when the Discovery jumps to the MU, Lorca won't have the Defiant to use as a ruse. How will that affect how things play out? Is that a paradox? Will it create an alternate timeline? 

Amyway, I hope in season 7 or 8 when DSC catches up with TOS timeframe, Burnham has a chat with the captain of the Defiant.    

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Depending on how it all plays out, Burnam's actions in the MU may prevent an even greater cataclysm there, or perhaps prevent a threat to her own universe by the MU.

In either case, none of them would be there now to take the actions that they have taken without the belief that the Defiant was critical to going home. They all took specific steps based on that assumption.

So the Defiant still has to go back for Burnam's current present to happen as it is happening now.

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So I felt like this ep was one I needed to rewatch, and just did. There is a lot that happens, lots that are apparently revealed, but the reveals are couched in dialogue that could be interpreted one way or the other. (As an X-Files fan I'm familiar with this technique: this kind of dialogue leaves a strong impression that things are a certain way, but there is enough doubt that the writers could change it up later). Here are a few points Im wondering about:

Tyler: the DISCO doctor described Tyler as a Klingon implanted inside of a human. L'Rell described Tyler as Voq being turned into a Human "shell." Saru describes him as a part Klingon part Human "tormented creature". Which is it? We don't know until there is a more definitive answer. 

Culber: The impression I got on my first watch was that he was dead dead dead, and this was his last appearance. BUT, Culber had the same infection on his arm as Mirror Stammets. He talked about how Stammets has to save the network and therefore "save us." If these scenes were just a narrative trick we aren't supposed to think about too hard--ie, is Culber a ghost? a sprit from the afterlife, etc?--why did they have him show the same infection as the very much alive MU Stammets? It must be significant right?  

Lorca: After my first watch of this ep I assumed that Lorca's plan was to assassinate the Emperor, which was explained two eps ago, that basically we had figured out his entire plan that has been running since "Context." But would the writers really just make it that simple? There is something about the dialogue in the closing scenes that makes me think there is something more going on with Lorca's plan. Can't put my finger on it. He said he's been "with friends" since leaving the MU--maybe he means that? 

Call me crazy, but after a week of thinking I had this season figured out, DSC may surprise us Sunday night all over again.      

  

Edited by Justin Snead

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I have no doubt the show will surprise, because I still don’t know just where it may all go, which is fun in itself. Also all the big theories that I had have mostly been revealed, so if they have any other twists or turns I have no real theory as to what they could be, therefore surprise. 

In terms of Culber, I have a feeling he will, somehow, still be brought back. Dunno how, but just think it could sill happen. I think that stuff on the arm, Mirror Stamets or maybe even the as yet unseen Mirror Culber could play a role in how it plays out. 

Tyler I came to the coclusion that the Doctors were confused, and L’Rell basically said they turned his Kljngon body into a weak human shell, took the real Tyler’s DNA and memory and placed the memories on top of Voq’s own to hide his true self. So I read it that way, with L’Rell’s procedure possibly killing or suppressing the Voq mind entirely, thus her Klingon death scream after flashes of Voq. I think that Tyler may live on, but will have to deal with what his body is, whether or not the Klingon bit may resurface, and basically being trusted by no one he thought of as a friend. It could be an intriguing character storyline. 

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