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prometheus59650

Episode 1.11 "The Wolf Inside" Discussion Thread

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Has there been any explanation why Stamets has to be the one to run the spore drive? Couldn't they put someone else in there? He didn't really break down until after more than 200 jumps. The new person would need a few jumps to practice and then try to get back. Even if they get to the wrong universe they're out of the mirror universe. 

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2 hours ago, Mr.Picard said:

I'm SO glad I'm not the only one who feels this way. The characters all fit in so much better and Burnham is getting accustomed to her new job, and it suits her. I dunno. She fits much better into the Mirror Universe. I doubt this was ever the intention of the writers, but so many people are suddenly liking the show much better (and Burnham, too), so this really is having a big impact on it all.

Make that three of us.  

As I said in my blog on this episode, the MU has really amped up the dramatic fireworks for the show.  Though I'm not sure I'd want the entire series set in the MU, for the time being I'm really enjoying the setting.

2 hours ago, prometheus59650 said:

 

In my head, I was just, "shoot him, shoot him, shoot him." It's utterly stupid to think that, on any level, he wasn't fully prepared to or going to kill her.

Her link to sanity was already gone.

Watching him in the booth for a few days after learning what he did to Culber would have helped her sort out her fee-fees.

Is that a "bad guy" thing to do? Maybe. But sometimes it's warranted, and sometimes good guys get pushed to bad things. I mean, I don't think it's really a "good guy" move to General Order 24 Eminiar VII...but it was justifiable.

And, yes, Voqler can die horribly.

I'm so though with that mother Voqler...:laugh:

And I'm glad I'm not the only one who had issues with Burnham turning into a pile of jelly when it's her BF that needs to be put down.  It was every female cop TV show cliche I remember watching in the '70s.  The male has to save her because she just "can't do it." 

Horse crap.

Burnham dropped her beloved captain via neck pinch with barely a wink (I'm guessing she would've stunned her if she lacked the training to do a neck pinch).  I could definitely understand Michael being freaked, but given her tendency (thus far) to act quickly and deal with the fallout later?  I think she would've done so with Voqler as well.  It was pretty clear her Ash wasn't coming back.  

As for 'rescuing' Voqler in vacuum: given their situation, living precariously in hostile space, I just don't think they should've wasted precious resources to rescue a Klingon sleeper agent whose mission was to infiltrate and frak up their felgercarb (forgive the BSG talk; it's easier than self-censoring; hehe).   Granted, MU Justice is pretty harsh, but it also would've taken care of Bunham's problem too.

 

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14 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Make that three of us.  

As I said in my blog on this episode, the MU has really amped up the dramatic fireworks for the show.  Though I'm not sure I'd want the entire series set in the MU, for the time being I'm really enjoying the setting.

I'm so though with that mother Voqler...:laugh:

And I'm glad I'm not the only one who had issues with Burnham turning into a pile of jelly when it's her BF that needs to be put down.  It was every female cop TV show cliche I remember watching in the '70s.  The male has to save her because she just "can't do it." 

Horse crap.

Burnham dropped her beloved captain via neck pinch with barely a wink (I'm guessing she would've stunned her if she lacked the training to do a neck pinch).  I could definitely understand Michael being freaked, but given her tendency (thus far) to act quickly and deal with the fallout later?  I think she would've done so with Voqler as well.  It was pretty clear her Ash wasn't coming back.  

As for 'rescuing' Voqler in vacuum: given their situation, living precariously in hostile space, I just don't think they should've wasted precious resources to rescue a Klingon sleeper agent whose mission was to infiltrate and frak up their felgercarb (forgive the BSG talk; it's easier than self-censoring; hehe).   Granted, MU Justice is pretty harsh, but it also would've taken care of Bunham's problem too.

 

The way I look at the rescue was that they were rescuing the data pack, the Klingon sleeper agent got lucky he was carrying something they needed. 

I agree that freezing was a stereotype. But she just got through saying that she was stressed out and losing it. He was not just her lover, he was her only connection to a normal reality. She lost it. 

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1 hour ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Burnham dropped her beloved captain via neck pinch with barely a wink (I'm guessing she would've stunned her if she lacked the training to do a neck pinch).  I could definitely understand Michael being freaked, but given her tendency (thus far) to act quickly and deal with the fallout later?  I think she would've done so with Voqler as well.  It was pretty clear her Ash wasn't coming back.  

The problem for DSC is that I was spoiled for a strong female lead in Star Trek 25 years ago.

Ask yourself this: Would Kira have shot him?

I think the answer is, "You bet your Bajoran earring she would have."

She might have had things to sort out after the fact, but Voqler would be dead on the floor.

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One thing not yet mentioned is another great performance by Mary Wiseman as Tilly the spore/medical engineer.  We have timid Tilly, brilliant Tilley and certified badass Tilley all in two episodes.  IMHO, she's the breakout performer at this point.

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1 hour ago, Mutai Sho-Rin said:

One thing not yet mentioned is another great performance by Mary Wiseman as Tilly the spore/medical engineer.  We have timid Tilly, brilliant Tilley and certified badass Tilley all in two episodes.  IMHO, she's the breakout performer at this point.

I love Tilly like crazy.

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7 hours ago, Mutai Sho-Rin said:

One thing not yet mentioned is another great performance by Mary Wiseman as Tilly the spore/medical engineer.  We have timid Tilly, brilliant Tilley and certified badass Tilley all in two episodes.  IMHO, she's the breakout performer at this point.

I mentioned her in my blog: https://musingsofamiddleagedgeek.blog/2018/01/14/star-trek-discovery-1-11-the-wolf-inside/   

She’s one of my favorite characters.:thumbup:

5 hours ago, prometheus59650 said:

I love Tilly like crazy.

You and me both!

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11 hours ago, Comiskeybum said:

Ok my thoughts after 2nd viewing.

- Based on the look on Lorca's face upon seeing his empress.........he's actually working FOR her. She spared his life after his attempt, convinced him to join her and infiltrate the prime universe for an unknown reason (spore drive.)  Seriously, the look on his face was that of "oh my god she's here, my queen is here and shit is about to go down."

- Burnam in her lingerie at the beginning.........hot

- Burnam's narration at the beginning, spot on, great writing.

Could be.  I’d have to watch it again.  I kind of assumed the look was more like licking his chops, like he might get another shot at assassinating her.

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3 minutes ago, Locutus said:

Could be.  I’d have to watch it again.  I kind of assumed the look was more like licking his chops, like he might get another shot at assassinating her.

That was my take as well. 

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2 hours ago, Mike Thompson said:

Another great episode, at the end of all this, hope that Burnam isn't carrying a Klingon baby  :)

 

Not that they will or have to comply with it, but TNG's The Emissary at least established that Klingons and humans need some scientific intervention to be genetically compatible.

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13 hours ago, prometheus59650 said:

Not that they will or have to comply with it, but TNG's The Emissary at least established that Klingons and humans need some scientific intervention to be genetically compatible.

^
This.

 

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22 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

^
This.

 

Yeah, but even after a deeper examination Culber didn't know he was Klingon, just that he wasn't who he claimed to be. Presumably he would have done a DNA test... If L'Rell could change his DNA, perhaps they are genetically compatible?

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24 minutes ago, Hammer said:

Yeah, but even after a deeper examination Culber didn't know he was Klingon, just that he wasn't who he claimed to be. Presumably he would have done a DNA test... If L'Rell could change his DNA, perhaps they are genetically compatible?

Maybe.

But if Burnam now has Voqler's baby, I say, in complete seriousness, I'm done with Discovery.

 

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1 minute ago, prometheus59650 said:

Maybe.

But if Burnam now has Voqler's baby, I say, in complete seriousness, I'm done with Discovery.

 

I, too, highly doubt that they would go this route. Burnham is their main character, they can't have her taking it easy for 9 months when there are Klingons to fight. 

While there were Klingon agents posing as humans in TOS, Darvin in 'Trouble with Tribbles' springs to mind, a simple tricorder scan was enough to reveal his identity. This whole twist seems far-fetched to begin with. There's no way that they shouldn't have been able to tell that he's Klingon right away, no surgery is that good. It's why I discounted the theory in the beginning.With the heightened state of alert due to the war, he shouldn't have slipped through the cracks. Even the Admiral wondered if Lorca bothered to check this guy out.

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7 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

Maybe.

But if Burnam now has Voqler's baby, I say, in complete seriousness, I'm done with Discovery.

 

It would be a really poor storyline. Burnam believed that Voqler was a human at the time. I can't believe that someone as smart as Burnam wouldn't take precaution to not get pregnant. It wouldn't fit in with her personality at all. It wasn't the classic stranded on a planet together and expecting to die soon so who cares situation. 


The only way that I could see a fake Klingon slipping through is if Lorca faked the tests somehow to make it happen. 

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On ‎16‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 3:37 PM, prometheus59650 said:

Not that they will or have to comply with it, but TNG's The Emissary at least established that Klingons and humans need some scientific intervention to be genetically compatible.

Thanks, must have missed that episode. However, if conceived it was in the mirror universe :lightsaber:

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53 minutes ago, Mike Thompson said:

Thanks, must have missed that episode. However, if conceived it was in the mirror universe :lightsaber:

Well, if one of them had been from the MU, they might have been just different enough.... As it is... :)

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1 hour ago, prometheus59650 said:

Well, if one of them had been from the MU, they might have been just different enough.... As it is... :)

That would be terribly, terribly convenient.

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9 minutes ago, spectator said:

That would be terribly, terribly convenient.

Indeed.

And welcome to the board and post a'plenty.

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2 hours ago, spectator said:

Thank you kindly- I think I shall!

Think of Omega Sector/Trekcore as the Star Trek convention that never ends...;)

Post often and prosper.

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On 1/15/2018 at 1:59 AM, kenman said:

Hey, I'm on top of this one, already written up my blog review! Guess when I am excited about an episode, that'll happen!

https://honeyfuggletrek.blogspot.com/2018/01/son-of-none.html

In terms of Burnham being the same that didn't hesitate in giving the Vulcan nerve pinch...I think they've done quite the job of showing how much she is no longer that person.  That is a day full of regret, and when faced with the betrayal of someone she has become incredibly close to, I don't find that moment to be played too poorly.  And as to Tyler's survival...he needed to survive for two reasons in my view, his survival shows that Burnham has not lost herself in her Mirror guise, and that these ARE the good guys. Plus he was a clever vessel for getting the info on the Defiant TO the Discovery, in a way that would not set off alarm bells for the Terrans. 

And I think the ending with Stamets jerking back to life a bit, and meeting his Mirror Version in his mind made it pretty clear that he isn't going anywhere. 

I agree. I love the Tyler sequences in this ep. The reveal was perfect, delicately written and perfectly acted. We all new Voq was Tyler, the show had told us as much 2 eps prior, but the drama was not in the reveal but how it would unfold. I don't think anyone was expecting it to happen this soon and in this way. I was on the edge of my seat during his execution. It was drawn out long enough for us to think about how we felt about it in real time. At first: Burnham won't--can't!--let him be executed like the people at the start of the ep. Then she sure looked like she wanted to--and we think maybe the MU has gotten to her like she was worrying about in the opening monologue. Then I thought: this is way too soon to end the Tyler/Voq storyline, it was too much build up to end this abruptly. Then she took over the controls and I relax thinking that she will beam him somewhere safe. THEN he materialized in space and the scene holds on his freezing body just long enough to me to say aloud "Damn, I guess she went there!" Just as Im thinking that I will have to accept my disappointment at the abrupt end of Tyler, he beams to DSC. The button on all this was Saru lecturing Tyler that they are still going to follow starfleet principles. The theme of the ep was brought full circle, and we get more character developing of Burnahm as a clever and effective tactician. 

This show is very careful about how it lays out it's themes. I think we get distracted by the fan theories from the real meat of the series, which is that it has something to say and is doing so in creative ways. 

    

On 1/15/2018 at 8:16 AM, Sehlat Vie said:

 

And frankly I couldn't care less if Tyler/Voq lives or dies anymore; he's a cold-blooded murderer of an important and sympathetic character.  He's lost access to my sympathy.

As for Stamets?  I hope that his communion with his mirror self bodes well for the character, but I'm still a bit upset that Culber is just...dead.

 

I understand this but don't feel the same. I feel like what Tilly said to Saru excusing Stamets for killing Culber could just as easily apply to Tyler. It was a long string of dialogue about not being in his right mind, very nice piece of writing that may have been intended to give us at least a little reason to hold onto our sympathy for Tyler. I don't know if he can or will be redeemed, but I hope he is. If the good Tyler can re-emerge and become stable, this will be one interesting character to have around for the rest of the series.  

From a narrative perspective, Culber HAD to die in the last ep to set up the Tyler reveal in this episode. The scene where Burnham confronts Tyler was designed to be the moment when the Voq consciousness  finally fully emerged. To work he needed to have done something terrible to prove to us and Burnham that Tyler/Voq really is a threat, that he can't just be sent to a counselor and healed. Sometimes this is why stories have sympathetic likable characters like Culber, to be sacrificed for something bigger. 

With Tyler and Lorca, DSC is ALL IN to the point we don't know how they will recover the characters. The fun is watching to see if they can or not. I prefer this time of storytelling to some previous Trek where they walk up to a line and then skitter back to safety.        

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On 1/15/2018 at 1:56 PM, Sehlat Vie said:

 

And I'm glad I'm not the only one who had issues with Burnham turning into a pile of jelly when it's her BF that needs to be put down.  It was every female cop TV show cliche I remember watching in the '70s.  The male has to save her because she just "can't do it." 

Horse crap.

 

I must be Team Voqler becasue I also found Burnham's hesitation understandable. She loves this person and only in that moment is she confronted with the idea that he is something else. Even we don't know exactly what he is, or how permanent his condition is. There would be enough confusion and doubt to keep her from killing him. 

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34 minutes ago, Justin Snead said:

I must be Team Voqler becasue I also found Burnham's hesitation understandable. She loves this person and only in that moment is she confronted with the idea that he is something else. Even we don't know exactly what he is, or how permanent his condition is. There would be enough confusion and doubt to keep her from killing him. 

Well, we know he's not human, what with his limbs literally having been sawed down.

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