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Robin Bland

THE LAST JEDI - Movie discussion and critique

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12 hours ago, Sim said:

Snoke also convinced me as long as he played a role, truly scary visage, but I'm still missing explanations as for where this First Order actually came from and what happened to the Republic Luke and Leia restored after ROTJ... TFA failed to explain that and we're still not any more informed after TLJ.

And we won’t get those. TPTB for this franchise are only interested in a pop hit, not storytelling. 

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54 minutes ago, The Founder said:

And the possible retconning of TLJ begins...

Rey's Parents

They've got a lot to mop up.

Considering they've basically decided to just completely repeat the OT and spit on the original characters while they were at it.

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I am finding it somewhat interesting to see so much dislike for this movie.  I actually kind of liked it. Rey's parents?  I'd rather they be nothing. I'd rather she wasn't related to some classic character. It makes the force more interesting if it isn't just strong in one family.  I liked Luke's story, and the way it was handled for the most part. I love RedLetterMedia, and they kind of tore it apart because they felt the only trick it had up it's sleeve was "subverting expectations" but I think I came away more satisfied because of that aspect. I would see something predictable coming, and it would try something new. If it had just been Empire rehashed...I'd have been bored to death and not wanted to see anymore of this pathetic franchise. To be honest, there was enough of an ending for everyone that I am satisfied and have no need to see anymore.

Star Wars is just a fairly limited franchise in my opinion, at least in terms of the kind of stories it can tell.  Rogue One was major evidence of that for me.  It had no real story or characters, and relied entirely on images of things you know, put in a few new locations. It was supposed to show the different kind of stories you can tell in that universe, and to me it kind of failed at that.  The Lest Jedi at least tried to do a lot of new things within that universe, succeeding for me where Rogue One failed miserably.  I didn't love the movie, but beyond the first two originals, I find it hard to love anything Star Wars anymore. 

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10 minutes ago, kenman said:

Rey's parents?  I'd rather they be nothing. I'd rather she wasn't related to some classic character. It makes the force more interesting if it isn't just strong in one family. 

As (I think?) Robin or someone said upthread; I like some of the ideas on paper, but they were bungled in execution.   That should’ve been a BIG reveal; not a throwaway line.   Ditto with Snoke’s death.  

 

10 minutes ago, kenman said:

I love RedLetterMedia, and they kind of tore it apart because they felt the only trick it had up it's sleeve was "subverting expectations" but I think I came away more satisfied because of that aspect. I would see something predictable coming, and it would try something new.

There’s a difference between subverting exceptions and just taking a dump on them; Luke’s casual toss of the lightsaber felt like a potentially big moment wasted on a cheap laugh.  For me, hat wasn’t a clever subversion; that was a waste of a good moment.  

10 minutes ago, kenman said:

Star Wars is just a fairly limited franchise in my opinion, at least in terms of the kind of stories it can tell. 

On this, I agree; there really isn’t a lot of wiggle room for new ideas.  

However, there is one leg of the SW franchise that continuously surprises me, and that's “Rebels”; that’s how you subvert exceptions, folks...;)

Honestly, if they would just set the Rebels’ writer room loose onto big screen SW?  They’d have another “Empire...” in a jiffy (and I don’t mean a beat-for-beat remake; I mean a sequel of similar quality).

10 minutes ago, kenman said:

The Lest Jedi at least tried to do a lot of new things within that universe, succeeding for me where Rogue One failed miserably. 

I’m just going to agree to disagree on that one; I think R1 did exactly what it set out to do, and even managed to work in a nice (if temporary) new ensemble of characters, too.  It almost felt like something the writers of “Rebels” could’ve cooked up...

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There are plenty of avenues that can be explored in the Star Wars universe. Every novel/game/show has proven that. The movies, both the PT and ST just didn't want to go anywhere different than a young Jedi being trained and a war in the back drop. That's not really a failure of the potential of SW but more a failure on those writing the stories.

In regards to Rey, I too did not want her to be related to Luke, Han, or Obi-Wan. That would have been silly. But they were clearly gearing up for her to have some unique background. Between her strength in the Force and the visions she received when touching the lightsaber all hinted that there was more to her than meets the eye. Why did she have visions of Kylo Ren and the Knights of Ren killing someone? Why did she visions of Bespin? Why did she have visions of her parents leaving? Why did she have visions of Luke and R2 watching the temple burn? She heard the voice of Obi-Wan and Palpatine in her visions. .... why? Cause she's the daughter of drunks?

I didn't think that she was some Alderanian princess or Jedi God or Anakin reincarnated or something. But there did appear to be a hint she was more than what we see.

This wouldn't be such an issue if TFA hadn't laid some ground work about her lineage. If they wanted to go down the route of her being a no body with a destiny - than Maz should have told her when she said no one was coming back to Jakku for her and Rey knew that deep down inside.

But I guess ... this is what happens when you have separate people making a trilogy without a unified story ...

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53 minutes ago, The Founder said:

There are plenty of avenues that can be explored in the Star Wars universe. Every novel/game/show has proven that. The movies, both the PT and ST just didn't want to go anywhere different than a young Jedi being trained and a war in the back drop. That's not really a failure of the potential of SW but more a failure on those writing the stories.

^ This.

I retract my earlier concurring with the limitations of the SW universe; it’s a failure of imagination, not the format.

54 minutes ago, The Founder said:

In regards to Rey, I too did not want her to be related to Luke, Han, or Obi-Wan. That would have been silly. But they were clearly gearing up for her to have some unique background. Between her strength in the Force and the visions she received when touching the lightsaber all hinted that there was more to her than meets the eye. Why did she have visions of Kylo Ren and the Knights of Ren killing someone? Why did she visions of Bespin? Why did she have visions of her parents leaving? Why did she have visions of Luke and R2 watching the temple burn? She heard the voice of Obi-Wan and Palpatine in her visions. .... why? Cause she's the daughter of drunks?

And the way the reveal was just blurted out; like it had zero meaning whatsoever.   It sets up TFA as a cheat, and I don’t like that.   TFA clearly had designs on both Snoke and Rey having more interesting origin stories.  I think Rian Johnson just copped out, that’s all.  

Rian Johnson didn’t subvert expectations so much as he took a crap all over them.  Big difference.   A subversion might be clever; but his handling of these dangling plot threads merely feels lazy. 

57 minutes ago, The Founder said:

This wouldn't be such an issue if TFA hadn't laid some ground work about her lineage. If they wanted to go down the route of her being a no body with a destiny - than Maz should have told her when she said no one was coming back to Jakku for her and Rey knew that deep down inside

And yes, about Maz... her cameo in TLJ was about as stupid as Spock’s Skype in STID.   Who the hell Skypes during pitched battle, anyway??  Did she have a phone droid (or a Droid phone; hehe) hovering conveniently nearby while she took Poe’s call?  

And why the hell did Poe have the idea to call her anyway?  He never even met Maz; Finn and Rey did.   Again, lazy writing on Johnson’s part...

1 hour ago, The Founder said:

But I guess ... this is what happens when you have separate people making a trilogy without a unified story ...

This.

And I agree with Prometheus upthread;  JJ Abrams has a far more difficult job ahead of him than he would’ve had if there’d been some consistency of vision.

tumblr_inline_mgsyt5KKo21rvr45f.gif

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15 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

As (I think?) Robin or someone said upthread; I like some of the ideas on paper, but they were bungled in execution.   That should’ve been a BIG reveal; not a throwaway line.   Ditto with Snoke’s death. 

How do you do a big reveal of "your parents weren't anyone important and/or anyone we've previously known in this franchise."  Seriously...how?  Was it a throwaway line?  Felt to me like a fairly important part of this movie to me.  In the middle of a major scene, with big exploding backdrops.  How in the hell was it throwaway? Also Snoke was never all that interesting to me, so I didn't mind that.

15 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

There’s a difference between subverting exceptions and just taking a dump on them; Luke’s casual toss of the lightsaber felt like a potentially big moment wasted on a cheap laugh.  For me, hat wasn’t a clever subversion; that was a waste of a good moment. 

Oh if only they'd gone the predictable route and he pontificated or something else.  One visual moment, and we are shown he doesn't want anything to do with this anymore. I didn't think it was a cheap laugh, it was mildly humorous, but it mostly showed me quickly where Luke was at. 

15 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

I’m just going to agree to disagree on that one; I think R1 did exactly what it set out to do, and even managed to work in a nice (if temporary) new ensemble of characters, too.  It almost felt like something the writers of “Rebels” could’ve cooked up...

Fair enough, to me Rogue One was nothing more than "look Death Star! Vader! Tarkin! That guy from the Bar! Sure hope he got off the planet two minutes later because in a week he is supposed to be in that bar..." and the story was unoriginal and the characters have all slipped from my brain.  Beyond not being able to name them, I can barely tell you anything about them. 

14 hours ago, The Founder said:

In regards to Rey, I too did not want her to be related to Luke, Han, or Obi-Wan. That would have been silly. But they were clearly gearing up for her to have some unique background. Between her strength in the Force and the visions she received when touching the lightsaber all hinted that there was more to her than meets the eye. Why did she have visions of Kylo Ren and the Knights of Ren killing someone? Why did she visions of Bespin? Why did she have visions of her parents leaving? Why did she have visions of Luke and R2 watching the temple burn? She heard the voice of Obi-Wan and Palpatine in her visions. .... why? Cause she's the daughter of drunks?

See thats what make it all the more interesting for me.  Kylo Ren may think she is nothing and has no place because her parents aren't some Skywalker or something...but she is still powerful in the force, it makes the Force more far-reaching. Anyone can become a hero or be in tuned with the Force and Jedi powers...lineage need have nothing to do with it. She had those visions because she is fairly powerful with the force...and so was everyone she had a vision of.  The Force binds them all together. 

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14 minutes ago, kenman said:

How do you do a big reveal of "your parents weren't anyone important and/or anyone we've previously known in this franchise."  Seriously...how?  Was it a throwaway line?  Felt to me like a fairly important part of this movie to me.  In the middle of a major scene, with big exploding backdrops.  How in the hell was it throwaway? Also Snoke was never all that interesting to me, so I didn't mind that.

Oh if only they'd gone the predictable route and he pontificated or something else.  One visual moment, and we are shown he doesn't want anything to do with this anymore. I didn't think it was a cheap laugh, it was mildly humorous, but it mostly showed me quickly where Luke was at. 

(...)

See thats what make it all the more interesting for me.  Kylo Ren may think she is nothing and has no place because her parents aren't some Skywalker or something...but she is still powerful in the force, it makes the Force more far-reaching. Anyone can become a hero or be in tuned with the Force and Jedi powers...lineage need have nothing to do with it. She had those visions because she is fairly powerful with the force...and so was everyone she had a vision of.  The Force binds them all together. 

I liked these scenes, too ... or at least they did not bother me at all. Could they have been executed more effectively? Maybe, I don't know.

As I said, I'm more a casual SW fan, so I didn't even think much about how these things could have been done more effectively. I did like it very much, though, that Rey is "a nobody" (assuming Kylo didn't lie to her). I liked how they defied expectations with this reveal. At any rate, this reveal was one of the things I liked very much about the movie.

Luke throwing away the lightsaber didn't appear like a cheap laugh to me, either (unlike that creature he milked or that fish).

What I did notice, though, is that Luke did not give me feelings of nostalgia in the movie, unlike Han in Ep.7. Maybe that means they failed at doing what they wanted to do with him in the movie, but I don't feel like contemplating too much about it, because I liked the movie on the bottom line.

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51 minutes ago, kenman said:

How do you do a big reveal of "your parents weren't anyone important and/or anyone we've previously known in this franchise."  Seriously...how?  Was it a throwaway line?  Felt to me like a fairly important part of this movie to me.  In the middle of a major scene, with big exploding backdrops.  How in the hell was it throwaway? 

Because it had such buildup (her visions, her use of the force, etc) and then it turned out to be, “Nah.  Your parents sold you for booze money.  Suck it up.”   That’s how the hell it was a throwaway.   Once again, subverting exceptions doesn’t mean you have to take a dump on them.  

51 minutes ago, kenman said:

Oh if only they'd gone the predictable route and he pontificated or something else.  One visual moment, and we are shown he doesn't want anything to do with this anymore. I didn't think it was a cheap laugh, it was mildly humorous, but it mostly showed me quickly where Luke was at. 

Or the grumpy old imposter borrowing Luke’s body.  

And to me, that moment doesn’t even match the emotion or buildup of the last scene of TFA; it’s like it was a deleted scene or something.  The tone didn’t synch up at all.

51 minutes ago, kenman said:

Fair enough, to me Rogue One was nothing more than "look Death Star! Vader! Tarkin! That guy from the Bar! Sure hope he got off the planet two minutes later because in a week he is supposed to be in that bar..." and the story was unoriginal and the characters have all slipped from my brain.  Beyond not being able to name them, I can barely tell you anything about them. 

To me, the characters just grow more interesting each time I watch it; the “Vader! Tarkin!” fan service moments take a backseat to them now...

R1 is the true morally gray universe that I think Rian Johnson was aiming for, but missed.

51 minutes ago, kenman said:

See thats what make it all the more interesting for me.  Kylo Ren may think she is nothing and has no place because her parents aren't some Skywalker or something...but she is still powerful in the force, it makes the Force more far-reaching. Anyone can become a hero or be in tuned with the Force and Jedi powers...lineage need have nothing to do with it. She had those visions because she is fairly powerful with the force...and so was everyone she had a vision of.  The Force binds them all together. 

Yeah, and if that wasn’t obvious enough, the last scene on Canto Bight sort of nail-gunned it into my forehead...

Maybe Rey's parents had to make some kind of Sophie’s Choice about leaving her on Jakku?  At least that give them an ounce of sympathy.  Now they’re just sullied non-characters.   Just as Anakin Child-killer in ROTS ruined Vader for me in the prequels, Rey’s drunken sot parents are less-than-nobodies now; they’re child endangering creeps.

 

51 minutes ago, kenman said:

Also Snoke was never all that interesting to me, so I didn't mind that.

Well some of us did...

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For me, it boils down to the fact that Johnson was allowed to write what was functionally his standalone notion of Star Wars and not the middle of a second trilogy. He has done what he wanted with no care as to what came before or what those that follow will have to do to connect a middle that not only has no connection to part one of this trilogy, but has gone out of its way to spit on the original.  

Abrams is probably best served by taking from TLJ what little bits are salvageable (Ren and Rey) and do what Johnson did by completely disregarding the rest.

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Actually...Last Jedi was not all that subversive.

Upthread, one of you commented that you did not want to see a Rey is related to so and so. Neither did I. It makes her powers more interesting. In point of face, it is not contradicted from the last movie. In TFA we first meet her as an anagram of Anakin living on another desert planet, a scavenger working for green bread. She even at one point said 'I'm nobody'. Seems the dark pit scene is her own vanity. But there was that cut scene, "My Father had it, my sister had it, and you have that power too." It did not mean this was directed to mean Rey. This line was directed at Kylo, Luke's nephew, anakin light, more like Luke. She was seeing what the force showed her, and in the new movie, they imply that such visions can be implanted, even a connection can be. Snoke must have been manipulating both of them. But I still think Rey was there, or at least the sword knew, via the force, and she is likely force related. After all, Poe and Finn are not either.

Glorious schadenfreude. I'm not even German, but the debates boil down to trolling and engoying others' suffering, as does the movie. It is funny however that Rain just opted to get rid of Snoke, because also upthread, he was not terribly interesting. Even so, do you think someone that powerful with the Force, on the dark side, would let himself be cut in half? He clearly wanted to do that. Perhaps his was an avatar, or as Luke later said, 'if you strike me down, I will grow more powerful'. Suppose Snoke was also force projecting. Why didn't the praetorian guards just stop? Technically their praetor was dead?

The Knights of Ren was never going to be a thing.

Snoke's ring theory was stupid. Come on. I can see why Rian didn't use it.

The flying Mary Poppins Leah was in the script before she died. It wasn't a subversion because she wasn't dead when they filmed the movie.

Luke being bitter makes perfect sense. He went bad when he wanted to end Kylo, and it freaked him out, because killing off your powerful nephew is dark, and murderous.

Was he really that out of character? When we see him again, it's been 35 years. Aso he doesn't know Rey. How about this. The day Kylo killed the temple people and fled, he took a few students, some of them dissented, and one of them is Rey's Mom. How old is she supposed to be, maybe 21? Kylo is clearly closer to 34. I think there is a good decade between them.

So about 10 years after ROTJ that is when preteen or nearly teen Kylo was training. It seems he is at most 12 or 13 in the fateful scene. If they're all teenagers who escape, then surely he didn't keep track of all of them, right?

Luke is missing for about 20 years in TFA, so those events happened, if we're to buy Earth like planets with years of 365 days, so that gives him time to sandwich in the other students.

Suppose force sensitive but drunken Rey parents were at the temple, but were kicked out, but had enough time to be force sensitive. She is therefore someone, but not a relative. She just thinks she is a nobody. She is not. Making her elite would have been lame. Maybe making her parents some of Kylo's friends would have been pushing reason a little, but suppose they were older friends at the temple, older teens who encouraged the coup. Syurely he didn't come about it on his own. And what of SAnoke? Suppose he was behind their leaving and abandoning her on Jakku! Okay.

I make a connection where there probably is not one, but given the force sword speeches and the visions, if Snoke was actually in ant contact with young Kylo and infant Rey, he knows.

Maybe Rey's dad is in plain sight in TLJ. DJ the smuggler, codebreaker?

Rey picked up the accent from that British alien junkyard guy, Unkar Plutt? Acually accents are picked up from your surroundings. If you were born in America but were raised in Australia, you would pick up their accents.

 

 

 

Edited by Chimera82405

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19 minutes ago, Chimera82405 said:

Even so, do you think someone that powerful with the Force, on the dark side, would let himself be cut in half? He clearly wanted to do that.

He thought he owned Kylo. He luxuriated in it. He was so sure of his ownage that he bragged that he knew every thought of Ren's.

And he did to the point that he was blinded by it.

37 minutes ago, Chimera82405 said:

Luke being bitter makes perfect sense. He went bad when he wanted to end Kylo, and it freaked him out, because killing off your powerful nephew is dark, and murderous.

 

But Luke has never been bitter. Bitter is not who that man is, or ever was.

But bitter is how Johnson wrote him because that's how he has to be so that Johnson's creations shine at the expense of all else

44 minutes ago, Chimera82405 said:

Making her elite would have been lame.

But she's already elite. She was elite in TFA when she went from zero to "more powerful than Luke ever was" in about 40 minutes.

This notion that her parents were nobodies doesn't wash. 

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2 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

ut Luke has never been bitter. Bitter is not who that man is, or ever was.

But bitter is how Johnson wrote him because that's how he has to be so that Johnson's creations shine at the expense of all else

^
This.

I could see Luke being saddened by his mistake, and bearing the responsibility for what happened.  But he wouldn’t be bitter, mean or angry (the dark side, these are... if only Rian Johnson remembered that).  He would also be a bit more hospitable towards Rey and certainly to Chewbacca; whom he treated like a total stranger; no wonder Chewie kicked down the damn door.

Good on YOU, Chewie... ;)

tumblr_oi3k42aZdG1s2wio8o1_540.gif

4 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

But she's already elite. She was elite in TFA when she went from zero to "more powerful than Luke ever was" in about 40 minutes.

This notion that her parents were nobodies doesn't wash. 

And even if they were just ‘common folk’, why couldn’t they be more sympathetic?  All it took was a really GOOD reason for them to abandon her (maybe they were being hunted down by Snoke for harboring a force sensitive?) and they would’ve been instantly sympathetic.  But nope... Rian Johnson decided it was better to take a s#!t all over Rey’s lineage and make them boozehounds who’d sell their little girl instead.    That just reeked of character sabotage to me.  

56 minutes ago, Chimera82405 said:

Rey picked up the accent from that British alien junkyard guy, Unkar Plutt? Acually accents are picked up from your surroundings. If you were born in America but were raised in Australia, you would pick up their accents.

She already sounded British when she was abandoned as a little girl in TFA.  And her British accent isn’t the same as Unkar Plutt’s.

57 minutes ago, Chimera82405 said:

Luke being bitter makes perfect sense. He went bad when he wanted to end Kylo, and it freaked him out, because killing off your powerful nephew is dark, and murderous.

He entertained the thought for a moment and then stopped himself; I agree the thought was out-of-character for Luke as well, but at least Rian Johnson (to his meager credit) didn’t have Luke pull some Anakin child-killer nonsense and murder his nephew in his sleep.

1 hour ago, Chimera82405 said:

Snoke's ring theory was stupid. Come on. I can see why Rian didn't use it.

I don’t know what the Snoke Ring theory was (?), but ANY backstory on Skoke (a man powerful enough to seduce Luke’s nephew) would’ve been better than the NOTHING that we got instead.   Snoke turned out to be a big hollow box under the tree.  A nothing burger.   

If he was so unimportant, then why did they build him up so much in TFA?   Leia mentioned how he pulled Kylo under his influence; how did he do that?  How did he reach Kylo/Ben when he was at Jedi school?  How did Snoke come to control the First Order?  Did he have political sway over the New Republic?   How did he amass so many troops and materiel in such a relatively short time?  These aren’t nitpicks; these are critical pieces of backstory IMO.  

 

And one of the BIGGEST issues that’s bugged me since the first night I saw it; that STUPID slow-speed chase through space.  

what-the-hell-gif-1.gif

I mean, the whole thing could’ve ENDED if the First Order just jumped a tiny bit ahead of the Rebel Fleet and waited for them to run out of gas.  

But a slow-speed chase???  Seriously...

 

Did Disney just abandon its whole control freak corporate personality because Rian Johnson directed the mediocre-at-best “Looper”?  Sorry to any Looper fans out there, but that was one of the most overrated science fiction movies I’ve seen in a LONG time.   

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46 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

I could see Luke being saddened by his mistake, and bearing the responsibility for what happened.  But he wouldn’t be bitter, mean or angry (the dark side, these are... if only Rian Johnson remembered that).  He would also be a bit more hospitable towards Rey and certainly to Chewbacca; whom he treated like a total stranger; no wonder Chewie kicked down the damn door.

Good on YOU, Chewie... ;)

 

Indeed.

And Johnson doesn't even set it up to allow Luke to find himself again or something. He's just a bitter old burned out coot. The real Luke, at the very worst would have found his mojo, and died trying to save him.

But, "Sorry, Ben. Failed you.Then failed myself by not murdering you in time. You've gotta die now. This Just isn't. Luke.

46 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

f he was so unimportant, then why did they build him up so much in TFA?   Leia mentioned how he pulled Kylo under his influence; how did he do that?  How did he reach Kylo/Ben when he was at Jedi school?  How did Snoke come to control the First Order?  Did he have political sway over the New Republic?   How did he amass so many troops and materiel in such a relatively short time?  These aren’t nitpicks; these are critical pieces of backstory IMO.  

3

Now he's just a cardboard stand up set up to die.

The more I think about this movie and what happened in it, it really feels like an intentional dismantling of pretty literally anything that came before so that Johnson could have the decks clear for Star Wars: The Rian Johnson Universe.

And, judging from what I've seen so far, Disney would do well to fire him rather than essentially handing him the franchise for the next decade. 

46 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

I mean, the whole thing could’ve ENDED if the First Order just jumped a tiny bit ahead of the Rebel Fleet and waited for them to run out of gas.  

But a slow-speed chase???  Seriously...

 

 

 

Or, you know, someone might have said, "Hey, we're getting picked off here anyway. What say we have one or two of the lagging ships dump their crews save for a volunteer each. If one or both play Hyperjump Kamikazee, not only are we safe, but the First Order is dealt a body blow."

And Looper isn't bad, but it's not some watershed bit of cinema either.

I've said it before, but the more I think about this movie the worse it gets. To the point where I'm already considering skipping a trilogy that Johnson's in full control of. 

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25 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

And Looper isn't bad, but it's not some watershed bit of cinema either.

It was, to me, an okay indie movie.   But hardly a ‘give-that-man-the-keys-to-the-SW-kingdom’ event, either...

26 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

The more I think about this movie and what happened in it, it really feels like an intentional dismantling of pretty literally anything that came before so that Johnson could have the decks clear for Star Wars: The Rian Johnson Universe.

And, judging from what I've seen so far, Disney would do well to fire him rather than essentially handing him the franchise for the next decade. 

They’ve done it before...;)

26 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

Or, you know, someone might have said, "Hey, we're getting picked off here anyway. What say we have one or two of the lagging ships dump their crews save for a volunteer each. If one or both play Hyperjump Kamikazee, not only are we safe, but the First Order is dealt a body blow."

Anything would’ve been better than the nothing and attempted mutiny that ensued; and that mutiny...

...one of the biggest issues I had was Admiral Purple Hair (name escapes me at the moment) NOT telling her senior pilot Poe Dameron the rebels’ big-picture strategy.   As my wife said, “If the left hand only talked to the right hand, that whole subplot didn’t have to happen!”   Painfully true.

I don’t mind seeing the heroes fail or lose one now and then.  “Empire...” (still my favorite) had them failing a lot.   But even in their darkest hours, they were there for each other.   They didn’t fail because of their own bitter infighting and kvetching with each other (!).  That’s not Star Wars; that’s Reservoir Dogs. The ‘heroes’ in TLJ weren’t terribly heroic.  

Just like ALL of the wheel-spinning in this movie.  The Canto Bight mission was a fool’s errand.   Rey and Kylo went nowhere together.  Yes, they killed Snoke, but neither one of them learned or changed from that experience.   Rey’s still-limited force knowledge (no thanks to Luke) didn’t advance terribly far beyond TFA.   She still got tossed around like a rag doll.   

Kylo Ren had an opportunity to be something really new in the SW universe (to be a really BAD good guy), but Rian Johnson settled for him just taking Snoke’s place.  Other than a self-given promotion, he’s essentially the same person he was at the end of TFA.   He offers to help Rey... and then retracts the offer.    He seems to want to change... but doesn’t.   He spends the whole movie oscillating, but he goes nowhere; like almost ALL of the characters in the movie.

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40 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

As my wife said, “If the left hand only talked to the right hand, that whole subplot didn’t have to happen!”   Painfully true.

LOL. More bloat? You don't say. :)

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9 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Because it had such buildup (her visions, her use of the force, etc) and then it turned out to be, “Nah.  Your parents sold you for booze money.  Suck it up.”   That’s how the hell it was a throwaway.   Once again, subverting exceptions doesn’t mean you have to take a dump on them. 

Again, I say it is more interesting if her parents were nobodies that abandoned her.  The idea that she can come from seemingly nothing and be so powerful with the force?  Well it actually adds more hope for the Rebellion doesn't it?  They don't need a Luke Skywalker to save them all.  They don't need a legend, it can be anyone. A whole lot of anyones. That is a more intriguing new idea for Star Wars than the One that can bring balance to the Force or some mystical stuff.  It feels more to me like "the farm boy who can make a difference" than anything else.  It would be throwaway if it were just some line thrown in like it was garbage, but to me it seemed an all important line delivered in the most extreme of circumstances. And also it is a guy who has been corrupted by Evil...he may have been lying, or just skimming some details.  Who knows, but to me if her parents were SOMEBODY it would be actually less intriguing than if they are NOBODY. 

9 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Or the grumpy old imposter borrowing Luke’s body. 

Based on what was meant to happen to him I genuinely don't see a problem with him abandoning the Force for a time and being bitter and disappointed in himself.  I never wanted him to be a villain, but he isn't one here.  I have this Aunt you see, and when I was a kid she was the most fun person and goofy and playful. Now she is older divorced and she is mostly a kind of bitter grump. Occasionally that old personality shines through, but it's mostly hidden under the less sentimental and grumpy version.  To me Luke shined through, particularly at the end, but I could totally gee this grumpy new version based on the background they gave him. 

My biggest complaint for the movie is more that it was a tad too long, and could've used some trimming.  That final scene where Luke returns in all his glory and defeats Ren and the Empire, or at least distracts them enough to let everyone escape, probably would've been best served as the ending of the whole trilogy in my view.  Sure it isn't blowing up another superweapon, but thematically I thought it was a great ending.  I genuinely don't see where they go from here, other than they have to defeat/redeem Ren. I kinda don't care if they do.  What will it matter?  Clearly "The Empire Will Rise Again for Another New Band of Heroes Will Take Them On and It Will Never End" coming this Christmas.

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2 hours ago, kenman said:

Based on what was meant to happen to him I genuinely don't see a problem with him abandoning the Force for a time and being bitter and disappointed in himself.  I never wanted him to be a villain, but he isn't one here.  I have this Aunt you see, and when I was a kid she was the most fun person and goofy and playful. Now she is older divorced and she is mostly a kind of bitter grump. Occasionally that old personality shines through, but it's mostly hidden under the less sentimental and grumpy version.  To me Luke shined through, particularly at the end, but I could totally gee this grumpy new version based on the background they gave him.

Well, no offense to your aunt, but when I plunked down $13 to see the return of Luke Skywalker after 34 years, I didn’t want to see someone’s grumpy uncle or aunt... I wanted Luke Skywalker.  

The bitter, grumpy, force-deaf man I saw in TLJ bore no resemblance to the optimistic man who saw good in one of the most evil men in the galaxy.   And a reminder; optimism isn’t limited to youth.  And even Luke’s Rashomon-like backstory (with younger Kylo) didn’t resolve this discrepancy.  

Real-Luke wouldn’t have even contemplated murdering his nephew in his sleep; that’s the act of a coward, not the same guy who risked his life (and his rebellion) to redeem his father. 

Mark Hamill gave a solid performance, but it didn’t feel like the true the return of Luke Skywalker.

2 hours ago, kenman said:

My biggest complaint for the movie is more that it was a tad too long, and could've used some trimming.  That final scene where Luke returns in all his glory and defeats Ren and the Empire, or at least distracts them enough to let everyone escape, probably would've been best served as the ending of the whole trilogy in my view.  Sure it isn't blowing up another superweapon, but thematically I thought it was a great ending.  I genuinely don't see where they go from here, other than they have to defeat/redeem Ren. I kinda don't care if they do.  What will it matter?  Clearly "The Empire Will Rise Again for Another New Band of Heroes Will Take Them On and It Will Never End" coming this Christmas.

The force hologram was an interesting idea...and it would’ve been more effective if they hadn’t telegraphed so heavily by having Luke suddenly appear 15 years younger and wielding a lightsaber that we’d seen destroyed only moments before.   I knew it wasn’t really ‘him’ somehow, so that wasn’t too big a surprise (at least for my wife and I).

There was also the issue with Luke’s ‘death.’  A reason would’ve been nice; was he old?  Sick?  Or did the force projection take it out of him?  Or did he ‘die’ before he force projected, and we’ve just witnessed his death out of sequence?   

In SW77, Ben clearly sacrificed himself because (A) he was cornered with no possible escape (B) It created a diversion for the Falcon to escape and (C) he would be more powerful minus his corporeal form.  It was, to me, made clear in that movie’s narrative (even when I was 10 years old, I got that he voluntarily sacrificed himself).

In ROTJ, Yoda dies and disappears because he’s “sicker... old and weak.”  Essentially he was at the end of his 900+ year life.  Made narrative sense (probably another reason he didn’t want Luke to rush off in “Empire...”; he knew his time was limited).

Luke drops dead because...?

He’s only about 50-60something; hardly the end of a natural lifespan (unless humans in the SW universe have some kinda Logan’s Run thing going on...).   Did the effort to project himself across the galaxy kill him?  Maybe... but we don’t know that, do we?  These aren’t quibbles; these are gaping HOLES in the narrative.

And no matter how ‘adult’ Rian Johnson is trying to make the franchise, these are still stories aimed at ALL age groups, including little children.   The narrative should be clear to them as well.  If an adult can’t fill the storytelling gaps, I don’t expect my little godson will be able to either...

3 hours ago, prometheus59650 said:

LOL. More bloat? You don't say. :)

Yeah, because that entire futile Canto Bight sequence just wasn’t padding enough, right? :giggle:

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6 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

It was, to me, an okay indie movie.   But hardly a ‘give-that-man-the-keys-to-the-SW-kingdom’ event, either...

They’ve done it before...;)

Anything would’ve been better than the nothing and attempted mutiny that ensued; and that mutiny...

...one of the biggest issues I had was Admiral Purple Hair (name escapes me at the moment) NOT telling her senior pilot Poe Dameron the rebels’ big-picture strategy.   As my wife said, “If the left hand only talked to the right hand, that whole subplot didn’t have to happen!”   Painfully true.

I don’t mind seeing the heroes fail or lose one now and then.  “Empire...” (still my favorite) had them failing a lot.   But even in their darkest hours, they were there for each other.   They didn’t fail because of their own bitter infighting and kvetching with each other (!).  That’s not Star Wars; that’s Reservoir Dogs. The ‘heroes’ in TLJ weren’t terribly heroic.  

Just like ALL of the wheel-spinning in this movie.  The Canto Bight mission was a fool’s errand.   Rey and Kylo went nowhere together.  Yes, they killed Snoke, but neither one of them learned or changed from that experience.   Rey’s still-limited force knowledge (no thanks to Luke) didn’t advance terribly far beyond TFA.   She still got tossed around like a rag doll.   

Kylo Ren had an opportunity to be something really new in the SW universe (to be a really BAD good guy), but Rian Johnson settled for him just taking Snoke’s place.  Other than a self-given promotion, he’s essentially the same person he was at the end of TFA.   He offers to help Rey... and then retracts the offer.    He seems to want to change... but doesn’t.   He spends the whole movie oscillating, but he goes nowhere; like almost ALL of the characters in the movie.

Admiral Holdo may have just been pulling rank at the wrong time. Commanding officers in the military aren't obligated to explain the reasons behind their orders to their subordinates. She was a weak leader who was not willing to have her authority questioned. I wonder if she was written to be a weak character in order to show how important Leia was to the rebels, in her absence everything goes off the rails. Even after her plan was revealed, I still disliked Holdo.

I agree too, there was a huge missed opportunity after they killed Snoke. Rian decided to copy RotJ's scene between Vader and Luke (before Palpatine was killed) instead of going a different direction. Rey joining the dark side would have been interesting, so would have Ren joining the rebels. Considering that Luke and Leia are the only other known force sensitive people in the galaxy, they team up and take on both the evil empire and the religious extremist rebels. Even Luke seemed to be hinting that things aren't so black and white when it comes to the force. I would have loved to see some shades of grey rather than recycling OT plot points.

There is a growing segment of the fan base that cheers for the empire now, as evidenced by the somewhat tongue-in-cheek subreddit https://www.reddit.com/r/EmpireDidNothingWrong/

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2 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Well, no offense to your aunt, but when I plunked down $13 to see the return of Luke Skywalker after 34 years, I didn’t want to see someone’s grumpy uncle or aunt... I wanted Luke Skywalker.  

The bitter, grumpy, force-deaf man I saw in TLJ bore no resemblance to the optimistic man who saw good in one of the most evil men in the galaxy.   And a reminder; optimism isn’t limited to youth.  And even Luke’s Rashomon-like backstory (with younger Kylo) didn’t resolve this discrepancy.  

Real-Luke wouldn’t have even contemplated murdering his nephew in his sleep; that’s the act of a coward, not the same guy who risked his life (and his rebellion) to redeem his father. 

Mark Hamill gave a solid performance, but it didn’t feel like the true the return of Luke Skywalker.

The force hologram was an interesting idea...and it would’ve been more effective if they hadn’t telegraphed so heavily by having Luke suddenly appear 15 years younger and wielding a lightsaber that we’d seen destroyed only moments before.   I knew it wasn’t really ‘him’ somehow, so that wasn’t too big a surprise (at least for my wife and I).

There was also the issue with Luke’s ‘death.’  A reason would’ve been nice; was he old?  Sick?  Or did the force projection take it out of him?  Or did he ‘die’ before he force projected, and we’ve just witnessed his death out of sequence?   

In SW77, Ben clearly sacrificed himself because (A) he was cornered with no possible escape (B) It created a diversion for the Falcon to escape and (C) he would be more powerful minus his corporeal form.  It was, to me, made clear in that movie’s narrative (even when I was 10 years old, I got that he voluntarily sacrificed himself).

In ROTJ, Yoda dies and disappears because he’s “sicker... old and weak.”  Essentially he was at the end of his 900+ year life.  Made narrative sense (probably another reason he didn’t want Luke to rush off in “Empire...”; he knew his time was limited).

Luke drops dead because...?

It felt obvious to me that the Force projection took it entirely out of him, and that was how he died.  He made peace with himself and the force, and joined it like Obi Wan and Yoda before him after expounding a ton of energy after avoiding using it for years. 

And in the end I felt I got Luke. A different Luke...but I have a sneaking suspicion that it would've been a challenge to find any new interpretation of Luke that wouldn't have gone down in flames. If they trotted him out as the young Luke of yesteryear, it would've felt that just like Han and Leia, he has yet to progress since Return of the Jedi (Han practically hadn't changed his clothes since the old days, and Leia is still out there leading a rebellion).  If Luke was the Luke you claim you wanted to spend you $13 on, would he be anything other than what he was in 1983?  If he was a complete Obi-Wan clone, would that really have been satisfying?  If he had turned to the dark side, is there really any way that would've worked?  We got this sort of grey area Luke...one who briefly once leaped before he thought everything through, and by the time he came to his senses it was too late, he ended up causing the very thing he hoped to prevent in his moment of weakness.  And he feels guilty as hell about it.  I never really thought Luke seemed bitter in the movie...more just disappointed in himself.  And he finds a bit of redemption in that in the end. If Luke was being a wise old hermit ala Kenobi or Yoda...eh?  It was what I expected and it might have been safe and predictable.

And he will probably e a force ghost in the next one. So you know...whatever.

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6 hours ago, kenman said:

It felt obvious to me that the Force projection took it entirely out of him, and that was how he died.  He made peace with himself and the force, and joined it like Obi Wan and Yoda before him after expounding a ton of energy after avoiding using it for years. 

And in the end I felt I got Luke. A different Luke...but I have a sneaking suspicion that it would've been a challenge to find any new interpretation of Luke that wouldn't have gone down in flames. If they trotted him out as the young Luke of yesteryear, it would've felt that just like Han and Leia, he has yet to progress since Return of the Jedi (Han practically hadn't changed his clothes since the old days, and Leia is still out there leading a rebellion).  If Luke was the Luke you claim you wanted to spend you $13 on, would he be anything other than what he was in 1983?  If he was a complete Obi-Wan clone, would that really have been satisfying?  If he had turned to the dark side, is there really any way that would've worked?  We got this sort of grey area Luke...one who briefly once leaped before he thought everything through, and by the time he came to his senses it was too late, he ended up causing the very thing he hoped to prevent in his moment of weakness.  And he feels guilty as hell about it.  I never really thought Luke seemed bitter in the movie...more just disappointed in himself.  And he finds a bit of redemption in that in the end. If Luke was being a wise old hermit ala Kenobi or Yoda...eh?  It was what I expected and it might have been safe and predictable.

And he will probably e a force ghost in the next one. So you know...whatever.

That last word sums up my feeling about the movie as.a whole...whatever.

And no, I don't want Mark Hamill trying to be his younger 1983-self, but old age doesn't negate optimism.  And Luke was optimism incarnate. Luke is the guy who never flew a starship before and yet blew up the Death Star. Luke's the kid who'd never been off-world who suddenly hatched a plan to rescue a princess from said Death Star.  Luke is the guy who successfully redeemed his rotten dad, and helped take down Palpatine.  I just don't think he'd give up on Rey so easily (let alone be a d!@k to Chewbacca) simply because Rian Johnson thought it'd be neat if Luke suddenly channeled Clint Eastwood in "Gran Torino." 

I wanted a character that was a logical progression from the real Luke Skywalker, and not some bitter, angry substitute.  Bitter and grumpy was not the only way to go; he could've been saddened.  A devastated man who, while still powerful, blamed himself for what happened to the Jedi order and just needed a spark of younger perspective (Rey) to shake him out of his funk and remind him of who he was (or is?).  You don't have to always go dark and angry.  This isn't a Batman movie.

Even Hamill had issues with the portrayal of his character, before a (no-doubt) Disney ordered intervention.  

And while some may have enjoyed Luke's "I'm-tired-and-I-wanna-go-to-bed' death, I found it to be a cop out.  Maybe if he even had just ONE line to Rey that he was weakened, or feeling ill (too much raw green milk?) I would've bought it a little easier.  As it is, it felt like an old guy who exerted himself a bit too much and would like a nice nap.   As it is, we get 'death from astral projection' (seriously?).  "Rebels" had Yoda astral-projecting his green butt off, and he got through it okay (Rebels takes place before SW77).  Luke was too young to literally just 'fade away' (and yes, at 51 years old myself, I consider Mark Hamill to be not quite Soylent Green-fodder just yet).

Even Vader got a better death than that.  Hell, so did Capt. Kirk, for that matter...

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Luke was NOT optimism incarnate. The whole of Empire he is saying how mich he can’t do. Denying the power of the force a bit, not believing he could achieve stuff. Hardly the incarnate of optimism. Even in 77, he doubts the Falcon and Han, he even shows doubts about leaving with Ben until his family is killed. He says he can’t a lot.

For what ts worth, it does seem like a lot of what you say you want we got. I dodn’t see him as bitter, I saw him as saddened by his past, and while he puts on a big front, in the end he does go to help Rey and the rebels, when Yoda helps him realize what those younger sparks represent, and why they are important. He starts from a point that maybe it is all too powerful and not worth the hassle, and ends up realizing he was wrong...whereas Kylo seemingly has come around only to be full throttle in the “burn it all down and start over” game. 

I thought Luke, in the end, used up a lot of energy to give hope and time to the rebels, and to convincingly distract Kylo and the Empire. I don’t really give a hoot about some cartoon, as entertaining as it may be, I will probably never see it, so if Yoda is shooting himself around the universe as a projection (which sounds sort of like it negates the whole living as a hermit thing but whatever), thats great but it has no bearing for me. 

Possibly a big thing here is I am a total casual Star Wars fan, I really only love the original trilogy. Luke, I hate to admit this, was always kind of a blank slte character for me. He was the hero and he was cool and all, but I never had much stock in what he was like. I was always more into Han Solo. So I guess I just don’t have the franchise, its meaning, or Luke or any of it...in the same built up high regard as others. 

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