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Robin Bland

THE LAST JEDI - Movie discussion and critique

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My theory, Hammill's first comments were taken out of context before he even saw the film, and originally he could not tell from his scenes what the finished film was like. Having seen it, he realized it was actually darned good, and a 36 year gap, where he had trained Kylo about 20 years before, and he was betrayed, would turn him into a bitter curmudgeon. Perhaps like his Joker character, he intended his first comments to be tongue in cheek. The bitter fans were perked up and reposted all of his quotes out of context and it furthered their agenda of knocking the film, but now that it is going to make hundreds of millions, if not break a billion, they too are like, well, he didn't really say that the way we thought.

Mickey Mouse is the evil behind Snoke, which explains a lot. Ha.

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1 hour ago, Chimera82405 said:

My theory, Hammill's first comments were taken out of context before he even saw the film, and originally he could not tell from his scenes what the finished film was like. Having seen it, he realized it was actually darned good, and a 36 year gap, where he had trained Kylo about 20 years before, and he was betrayed, would turn him into a bitter curmudgeon. Perhaps like his Joker character, he intended his first comments to be tongue in cheek.

No, he didn't. There was no humor, backhanded or otherwise in those comments. They weren't off-the-cuff. They were articulate and well-considered. That Luke Skywalker wasn't his character and he said so. Anyone that saw that Luke knows that it wasn't Luke.

It's not "bad," it's just not Luke.

The context was also quite clear.  His comments were pretty unambiguous.

 

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5 hours ago, prometheus59650 said:

No, he didn't. There was no humor, backhanded or otherwise in those comments. They weren't off-the-cuff. They were articulate and well-considered. That Luke Skywalker wasn't his character and he said so. Anyone that saw that Luke knows that it wasn't Luke.

It's not "bad," it's just not Luke.

The context was also quite clear.  His comments were pretty unambiguous.

That was my take.
His revised comment felt more like he’d just gotten a finger wagging from The Mouse...

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I held off from watching this until Dec 26th, so I had already heard about Hamill's comments going into the theater so my expectations were lowered. I found myself impatient for this movie to finish. I didn't like the treatment of Luke Skywalker, not because I need him to be that hero from IV-VI, but because I found him to be so far out of character. While hiding might not be a strange thing for Luke to do, I think that his succumbing to the dark side in trying to murder Kylo Ren and his later apathy towards the Jedi plight was wildly out of character. It's almost like the director wanted to sully the old hero to try to make the new hero look better. 

As for Rey, Kylo Ren had a point, just why was she with the rebellion? There are no familial connections. She has no stake in it other than having a target painted on her back by being force sensitive. It would be much easier to just work for the First Order. For Rey, why would the light = good and the dark side = bad? I just don't get her motives for being the white knight for the rebellion. 

The whole subplot with Finn and Rose I found moronic. They bring the wrong guy back and expect everything to be okay? It gave us an excuse to see a casino planet, but other than that it was wasted screen time. I'm just not that interested in their characters.

Another thing was the rebellion being reduced to a handful of ships. Did episode VI mean nothing? How do they rebound so strongly from such a stinging defeat? 

I just found that in general this movie didn't tell me anything interesting about the force (although Luke almost did) or the galaxy they live in. Give me some more complexity to the dark side and the light than force bolts and mental manipulation.

I didn't think this movie was quite as bad as the prequels, but I thought it was a far inferior movie to TFA or even Rogue One.

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I liked R1 and TFA much more than TLJ.   

Neither R1 or TFA left me with the nagging disatisfaction that TLJ did.   There were nits in those earlier films, but nothing that kept me from that same involuntary smile by the end credits I usually get with a Star Wars movie.

I agree TLJ is not 'prequel bad', but I'd put it somewhere between Return of the Jedi and Revenge of the Sith (I'd even go so far as to say I liked ROTS better).   TLJ had the potential to be so much greater than it was, but Luke's return was such a letdown, and so many other wrongheaded narrative/editing decisions were made that it's hard to say I loved it, or even liked it a great deal.  The more I think about the film itself, the more it bothers me.  That 'first viewing' razzle-dazzle is rapidly fading, and frankly, it wasn't that strong to begin with.  This was the first SW movie since AOTC where I didn't applaud at the end (and yes, I applaud at movies...sue me :P).

TLJ has moments (some are potentially iconic), but it lacks the warmth, the comraderie and even (dare I say it?) the spirit that we see in the other SW movies.

I was watching TFA on cable the other night, and right off I could feel the warmth of the characters practically pouring out of my TV.  The direction and writing (you can't beat Lawrence Kasdan on a SW film) seems much more sure footed.  

I commend Disney for giving a relative newcomer like Johnson (his filmography is fairly short) such auteur-like control, but in this case (certainly based on the headscratchingly unworthy "Looper") I don't think it was a wise choice.  

Johnson in the end, delivered a colder, clumsier, and overall less enjoyable film.  

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1 hour ago, Sehlat Vie said:

I liked R1 and TFA much more than TLJ.   

Neither R1 or TFA left me with the nagging disatisfaction that TLJ did.   There were nits in those earlier films, but nothing that kept me from that same involuntary smile by the end credits I usually get with a Star Wars movie.

I agree TLJ is not 'prequel bad', but I'd put it somewhere between Return of the Jedi and Revenge of the Sith (I'd even go so far as to say I liked ROTS better).   TLJ had the potential to be so much greater than it was, but Luke's return was such a letdown, and so many other wrongheaded narrative/editing decisions were made that it's hard to say I loved it, or even liked it a great deal.  The more I think about the film itself, the more it bothers me.  That 'first viewing' razzle-dazzle is rapidly fading, and frankly, it wasn't that strong to begin with.  This was the first SW movie since AOTC where I didn't applaud at the end (and yes, I applaud at movies...sue me :P).

TLJ has moments (some are potentially iconic), but it lacks the warmth, the comraderie and even (dare I say it?) the spirit that we see in the other SW movies.

I was watching TFA on cable the other night, and right off I could feel the warmth of the characters practically pouring out of my TV.  The direction and writing (you can't beat Lawrence Kasdan on a SW film) seems much more sure footed.  

I commend Disney for giving a relative newcomer like Johnson (his filmography is fairly short) such auteur-like control, but in this case (certainly based on the headscratchingly unworthy "Looper") I don't think it was a wise choice.  

Johnson in the end, delivered a colder, clumsier, and overall less enjoyable film.  

Hmmm, yeah. This. I hadn’t thought to compare my feelings of TLJ with R1 and TFA or even ROTS. I think I enjoyed all three more than this one. I think I wanted to enjoy this one, but that’s precisely why people get so passionate about Star Wars. 

Kasdan is an incredible writer whatever he touches. The way he structures stories, The thematic undertow, dialogue that seems superficially easy and conversational but conveys so much about character and intent and plot... 

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6 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

I think I wanted to enjoy this one, but that’s precisely why people get so passionate about Star Wars. 

^  This.

I went into TLJ with my arms wide open.   I really really wanted to love it.  Wanted to end this year with a Star Wars-ian triumph.  

At the end, my wife and I weren’t even applauding.  We both had our hands over our chins in “hmmmm” mode.  Not a good sign...

9 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

Kasdan is an incredible writer whatever he touches. The way he structures stories, The thematic undertow, dialogue that seems superficially easy and conversational but conveys so much about character and intent and plot... 

Agreed.

Wish he’d done a pass on this latest one.

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I've come to the conclusion, that, while I personally can't say I hate the movie, in a real sense, it's a creative failure and it's hobbled EP:9 just by being what it is..

This was Luke's movie. In many respects, he was the lynchpin of the film. If Luke had been written as Luke, none of the negatives would matter. But, since Luke isn't Luke, it amplifies everything else sour in this thing like the uselessness of Phasma, DJ, and Rose. 

I'm not sure how this gets salvaged.

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Well I still like it, liked it more on second viewing, and my best friend loved it, even more so than me, and went on about it for hours, and he's the cynical one! I'm the nitpicky one.

I suppose for some fans it boiled down to 'these scenes and characters weren't the people we remembered" whereas others were willing to say, "okay, new interpretation" or "JJ Abrams story was too much like so and so, and this Johnson dude just dumped all of his points out an airlock".

Do you really just want to see everything explained and have it end with 'family is important so we're all related in a cosmic reunion wedding'? That would be boring! Let's do something completely different.

Or is it all that different 'subversive', or whatnot?

Rey like Luke 'came from nowhere' and it is impressive she is force sensitive.

Lando was going to be in the casino scene, but they couldn't get him. Also, they switched Finn with Poe on the Rose stuff because it flowed better on the planet stuff, even if Finn would have made more sense on the bridge stuff, because then Admiral Purple Hair would have been suspicious of Finn. Also the Rose stuff was fine. It was about her, and the little side adventure.

TFA also had a side adventure. They all sort of do. It's a serial like one of those old Flash Gordon things, and they go on side quests.

Luke also didn't complete his full training before Yoda died.

The Emperor taunts Luke to fight Vader twice, urges them to slay him, and them Vader does. Snoke taunts Rey and Kylo to kill, and they kill him.

Luke does send himself via space ghost mode to the salt planet to face the forces of Kylo and does act heroic, and helps them to escape.

They shot all of Carrie Fisher's footage, even the flying out in space scene, before she passed. Everyone thought that was when she was going to be killed. No, they didn't go there.

Maybe the next movie will just take place 5 years later, and she has passed off camera.

TFA was really a redo of ANH and this was not really a redo of ESB.

IMHO TLJ was better than ROTJ and on a part with ROTS also, but no sequel has been as good as ESB.

I liked being back in that world, and over 2 hours went by quick. I liked RO also.

But...I did find it strange they turned General Hux into a comic relief joke and made him seem sort of like the "I know nothink" guy in Hogan's Heroes.

"The Disney overlords say so, hah ha." read it like Mickey Mouse.

 

Edited by Chimera82405

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A couple of friends and I had a discussion over social media regarding generational liking of the movie. The idea being that younger folks liked the movie while older fans didn't. There's no data to quantify this but overall it sounds about right. 

All I can think of is that younger people that have grown up with movies like The Fast And The Furious, Transformers, etc... have no problem with this movie. Perhaps those who grew up with the originals see a marked difference in storytelling, tone, etc...

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50 minutes ago, Chimera82405 said:

I suppose for some fans it boiled down to 'these scenes and characters weren't the people we remembered"

Which is a perfectly valid issue when we're talking about generational characters. And, even with Abrams, Kirk and Spock, etc. are still recognizable.

But Luke is not Luke.

58 minutes ago, Chimera82405 said:

Do you really just want to see everything explained and have it end with 'family is important so we're all related in a cosmic reunion wedding'? That would be boring! Let's do something completely different.

What does this even mean? Would I like Luke's completely out of character behavior explained? Yes.

And if Johnson wanted to try something completely different, The Force Awakens should have had Rey finding Luke's grave and his student no one knew anything about; some jaded nutball named A. Prentice.

1 hour ago, Chimera82405 said:

Lando was going to be in the casino scene, but they couldn't get him. Also, they switched Finn with Poe on the Rose stuff because it flowed better on the planet stuff, even if Finn would have made more sense on the bridge stuff, because then Admiral Purple Hair would have been suspicious of Finn. Also the Rose stuff was fine. It was about her, and the little side adventure.

It was a wasted 30 minutes made all the more annoying because, even without it, the film is about 2:15, plus I already sat through 30 minutes of mind-numbing trailers before the movie started, so my tolerance for poor editing and bloat was thin by then to begin with. If they couldn't get Lando, they should have scrapped the whole thing. And if all they wanted Willams for was some utterly empty cameo in an opening scene before Finn D. Sidekick and Rose A. Sidekick's Sidekick get captured to engage in pointless exposition before introducing DJ the Meaningless. I'm not at all surprised that Williams laughed it off.

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1 hour ago, Nombrecomun said:

A couple of friends and I had a discussion over social media regarding generational liking of the movie. The idea being that younger folks liked the movie while older fans didn't. There's no data to quantify this but overall it sounds about right. 

All I can think of is that younger people that have grown up with movies like The Fast And The Furious, Transformers, etc... have no problem with this movie. Perhaps those who grew up with the originals see a marked difference in storytelling, tone, etc...

We're both in our 40s. Does that make us original fans or new fans? Another 40 something fan friend didn't like it. Two 20 something fans adored it. Not  enough info for a large case study at least from the rest. Some 30 something relatives were like, yeah, it was okay. Seems it matters how much people are going to see movies to merely escape and be entertained, and ow many read a lot into these movies.

 

1 hour ago, prometheus59650 said:

Which is a perfectly valid issue when we're talking about generational characters. And, even with Abrams, Kirk and Spock, etc. are still recognizable.

But Luke is not Luke.

What does this even mean? Would I like Luke's completely out of character behavior explained? Yes.

And if Johnson wanted to try something completely different, The Force Awakens should have had Rey finding Luke's grave and his student no one knew anything about; some jaded nutball named A. Prentice.

It was a wasted 30 minutes made all the more annoying because, even without it, the film is about 2:15, plus I already sat through 30 minutes of mind-numbing trailers before the movie started, so my tolerance for poor editing and bloat was thin by then to begin with. If they couldn't get Lando, they should have scrapped the whole thing. And if all they wanted Willams for was some utterly empty cameo in an opening scene before Finn D. Sidekick and Rose A. Sidekick's Sidekick get captured to engage in pointless exposition before introducing DJ the Meaningless. I'm not at all surprised that Williams laughed it off.

So clearly from the get go some fans weren't going to like the side quest no matter what.

But then on Canto Bight they couldn't have had the message about mistreating rabbit eared horses is bad? No. We have to have that. And freeing the rabbit eared horses!

Note that I am not Rian Johnson nor have I met him or anything. I think he directed Looper and Brick. He was an odd choice, but I think his choice worked. We shall see how Han Solo plays in a year.

Primarily I am a Star Trek fan, Trekker or Trekkie, and was not as into the mythos of Star Wars. Maybe that has colored my liking of the movie, but I will not be turned to not liking iit, if it is my opinion for liking it.

I suppose having only been a casual Star Wars fan, and having not completely dissed the prequels, (although some of them have some atrocious dialog), I would just not be very choosy with Star Wars. (I think by accident I have seen TFM from 1999 more than any of them, but that was because of my then kid nephew, who saw it as his first movie with his uncle, and then was so enthralled when it was on video he watched it dozens of times, until Jar Jar was da true Sith lord, ha). He is now 31 and thought Rogue One was the best one.

Maybe this film takes place in the Star Wars version of the Mirror Universe?

But if they diss the head canon about when and where Kirk got out of the academy and became a captain, oh no, that's not right. Ha.
 

Edited by Chimera82405

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2 hours ago, Chimera82405 said:

So clearly from the get go some fans weren't going to like the side quest no matter what.

I would have been fine with it if it added something. It added nothing that five minutes of exposition from Rose within the fleet would have done just as well...or if it added a character that matters and DJ doesn't.

The whole thing is a waste of time and seems to exist for no other reason than to be a Johnson vanity setpiece. (Mos Eisley with Baccarat instead of Craps.)

2 hours ago, Chimera82405 said:

Primarily I am a Star Trek fan, Trekker or Trekkie, and was not as into the mythos of Star Wars. Maybe that has colored my liking of the movie, but I will not be turned to not liking iit, if it is my opinion for liking it.

Nor am I a particular fan of Star Wars. I like it, but I never thought it was all that.

And, by the same token, I won't be dissuaded from criticising it by enduring criticism that clearly implies that why I don't like it is because things aren't being spoon fed to me. It's insulting on its face.

2 hours ago, Chimera82405 said:

Maybe this film takes place in the Star Wars version of the Mirror Universe?

No one is going to be that fortunate.

2 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

ALSO 

Rian Johnson killed Ackbar. 

Another one of those, "Let me show you who's in charge now" moments, I imagine.

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18 hours ago, Hammer said:

I held off from watching this until Dec 26th, so I had already heard about Hamill's comments going into the theater so my expectations were lowered. I found myself impatient for this movie to finish. I didn't like the treatment of Luke Skywalker, not because I need him to be that hero from IV-VI, but because I found him to be so far out of character. While hiding might not be a strange thing for Luke to do, I think that his succumbing to the dark side in trying to murder Kylo Ren and his later apathy towards the Jedi plight was wildly out of character. It's almost like the director wanted to sully the old hero to try to make the new hero look better. 

As for Rey, Kylo Ren had a point, just why was she with the rebellion? There are no familial connections. She has no stake in it other than having a target painted on her back by being force sensitive. It would be much easier to just work for the First Order. For Rey, why would the light = good and the dark side = bad? I just don't get her motives for being the white knight for the rebellion. 

The whole subplot with Finn and Rose I found moronic. They bring the wrong guy back and expect everything to be okay? It gave us an excuse to see a casino planet, but other than that it was wasted screen time. I'm just not that interested in their characters.

Another thing was the rebellion being reduced to a handful of ships. Did episode VI mean nothing? How do they rebound so strongly from such a stinging defeat? 

I just found that in general this movie didn't tell me anything interesting about the force (although Luke almost did) or the galaxy they live in. Give me some more complexity to the dark side and the light than force bolts and mental manipulation.

I didn't think this movie was quite as bad as the prequels, but I thought it was a far inferior movie to TFA or even Rogue One.

I agree with all of this.

8 hours ago, Chimera82405 said:

I suppose for some fans it boiled down to 'these scenes and characters weren't the people we remembered" whereas others were willing to say, "okay, new interpretation" or "JJ Abrams story was too much like so and so, and this Johnson dude just dumped all of his points out an airlock".

It's not so much that they aren't the way we remembered them. It's quite the opposite in fact. This movie takes place .... what? 20-30 years after RotJ? I would expect Luke, Han, Leia to be different. Decades of time would have had to have changed them. The three of them changed (more so Luke and Han) from ANH to RotJ. And that is a one or two year gap. Imagine how different they would be decades later.

The thing is ... Luke, Han, and Leia are not different whatsoever (except a little tired bitterness added). At least not in terms of where they moved since Endor. Everyone is exactly in the same place as we saw them. Luke is the only Jedi. Han is a smuggler/drifter. Leia is a rebellion general. Now - to be fair - this started with TFA. Rian Johnson did not put these characters in these positions. He did not, however, fix it, though.

There is no new interpretation if they are just sour/tired versions of their OT selves.

This ultimately boils down to this - if we are being honest - when the ST was announced people were hopeful to see Luke/Han/Leia. Now, if they were passing-the-torch secondary characters? Fine. But most of us still expected to see them and to see what they had done since restoring the Republic. Coupled with the EU stories and actually seeing the Republic in its hay day in the PT - it was an exciting prospect to see the OT characters evolve.

Imagine the disappointment to see no reunion with the three of them. To see they are still in the same place in the OT. And to see they've become pale shadows of who they used to be. Abrams/Johnson screwed up by even framing the ST this way. There really is no recovery from this. At best - the final movie should just try to be some type of high note send off and that's it. It's a train wreck dragging itself to the last station for me at this point.

I'm honestly at a point where I wish this movie took place 50 years after RotJ and just had the original trio passed into mythology.

The thing I don't get is: what do these movies want to actually be? New and innovative or more of the same old? This movie tries to do both by (trying to) please older fans like me by including Ford/Fisher/Hamil but then going in this wildly different direction with it (to please the newer generation). There is no balance and instead it feels like both directions are being pulled from each other. Causing these really odd movies.

Edited by The Founder

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14 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

ALSO 

Rian Johnson killed Ackbar. 

Sounds fishy to me...:P

9 hours ago, The Founder said:

The thing I don't get is: what do these movies want to actually be? New and innovative or more of the same old? This movie tries to do both by (trying to) please older fans like me by including Ford/Fisher/Hamil but then going in this wildly different direction with it (to please the newer generation). There is no balance and instead it feels like both directions are being pulled from each other. Causing these really odd movies.

This is a very good point.   It’s like tidal friction pulling it in two directions that aren’t really compatible.   

19 hours ago, prometheus59650 said:

I've come to the conclusion, that, while I personally can't say I hate the movie, in a real sense, it's a creative failure and it's hobbled EP:9 just by being what it is..

This was Luke's movie. In many respects, he was the lynchpin of the film. If Luke had been written as Luke, none of the negatives would matter. But, since Luke isn't Luke, it amplifies everything else sour in this thing like the uselessness of Phasma, DJ, and Rose. 

I'm not sure how this gets salvaged.

Rian Johnson has kind of painted the whole franchise into a corner...

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10 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

This is a very good point.   It’s like tidal friction pulling it in two directions that aren’t really compatible.   

My hope is that since Carrie Fisher has passed away and they are not going to CGI her character - it means she will essentially be written out somehow. Thus, the story must stand on the shoulders of Rey, Finn, and Poe.

This will allow it to not be this mix mash of both old and new. The characters can have their own story, their own unique direction.

And the OT won't be impacted anymore.

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1 hour ago, The Founder said:

My hope is that since Carrie Fisher has passed away and they are not going to CGI her character - it means she will essentially be written out somehow. Thus, the story must stand on the shoulders of Rey, Finn, and Poe.

This will allow it to not be this mix mash of both old and new. The characters can have their own story, their own unique direction.

And the OT won't be impacted anymore.

That’s both a good thing (for the new cast) and a bit melancholy for fans of the OT.

But the Carrie Fisher issue presents problems; since they didn’t kill off Princess Leia in E8 (when they had a GOLDEN opportunity to do so), her ‘role’ in E9 will either be stock or leftover editing scraps from E8 cobbled together to make a de facto death scene, or... she’ll die off camera, which is an insult to the importance of the character.  IMO, neither option is particularly attractive.   

Frankly, her ‘floating’ back to the ship looked really goofy (a few people chuckled in my audience); and all I could think afterward was, THAT was the moment they should’ve killed the character off.   I mean, she spent most of the rest of the film’s running time in a freaking coma, for goodness’ sake.   What was the difference?  She got a few minutes to commune with Luke/not-really-Luke’s ghost?  So what?  

So many wrongheaded decisions in this movie... the more I think of them, the less I like them.

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34 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

She got a few minutes to commune with Luke/not-really-Luke’s ghost?  So what?  

The two of them did nothing that they couldn't have done had Leia used the force to stave off death for a few minutes as she sucked vacuum.

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4 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

That’s both a good thing (for the new cast) and a bit melancholy for fans of the OT.

But the Carrie Fisher issue presents problems; since they didn’t kill off Princess Leia in E8 (when they had a GOLDEN opportunity to do so), her ‘role’ in E9 will either be stock or leftover editing scraps from E8 cobbled together to make a de facto death scene, or... she’ll die off camera, which is an insult to the importance of the character.  IMO, neither option is particularly attractive.   

Frankly, her ‘floating’ back to the ship looked really goofy (a few people chuckled in my audience); and all I could think afterward was, THAT was the moment they should’ve killed the character off.   I mean, she spent most of the rest of the film’s running time in a freaking coma, for goodness’ sake.   What was the difference?  She got a few minutes to commune with Luke/not-really-Luke’s ghost?  So what? 

So many wrongheaded decisions in this movie... the more I think of them, the less I like them.

I agree that they should have killed her off when they had the chance. They must have had big plans for her in IX if they kept her around with the rest of the old guard gone. Perhaps they were planning a final confrontation between Leia and Ren? Maybe she was supposed to impart wisdom to Rey? Now, not only do they have to eliminate her character awkwardly offscreen, they may just have to re-write the ending of the trilogy. What a mess!

TLJ made it seem like the rebellion would fall apart at the seams if Leia was gone. She wasn't in a coma long before the rebels starting thinking about mutiny. To top it off, Rey is now going to be the only force sensitive character for the rebels. That makes her character a little too special for my liking. Three lessons from Luke and a stack of books and she's now their only hope. They should have kept Luke around instead of Leia. I think they will have to bring Luke back as a force ghost in IX to make the ending work now. 

Edited by Hammer

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Honestly, and I'm just throwing this out here for myself. I really need to stop thinking about this movie because, the more I do, the more I hate it.

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19 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

That’s both a good thing (for the new cast) and a bit melancholy for fans of the OT.

But the Carrie Fisher issue presents problems; since they didn’t kill off Princess Leia in E8 (when they had a GOLDEN opportunity to do so), her ‘role’ in E9 will either be stock or leftover editing scraps from E8 cobbled together to make a de facto death scene, or... she’ll die off camera, which is an insult to the importance of the character.  IMO, neither option is particularly attractive.   

Frankly, her ‘floating’ back to the ship looked really goofy (a few people chuckled in my audience); and all I could think afterward was, THAT was the moment they should’ve killed the character off.   I mean, she spent most of the rest of the film’s running time in a freaking coma, for goodness’ sake.   What was the difference?  She got a few minutes to commune with Luke/not-really-Luke’s ghost?  So what?  

So many wrongheaded decisions in this movie... the more I think of them, the less I like them.

You make a good point that it's a bit of a Kobayashi Maru. No one really wins. But I'd rather be a bit melancholy about Leia's quick off-screen death than angry at her legacy being ruined for the sake of subverting my expectations. haha.

You are right, though. From what I read - they are going to use unused footage and splice it together. How that will make a death scene is beyond me. Unless they did film a death scene in this movie but decided not to use it? I'm not really sure. I bet when the DVD comes out - the behind the scenes may give us a bit more clarity on what Leia's original role in this movie was before any changes?

2 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

Honestly, and I'm just throwing this out here for myself. I really need to stop thinking about this movie because, the more I do, the more I hate it.

No joke - that was how I felt when I left the theater. I was completely silent the entire ride home and my girlfriend thought I was just tired (we went to the midnight showing). She had no idea how livid I was. haha.

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1 hour ago, The Founder said:

You make a good point that it's a bit of a Kobayashi Maru. No one really wins. But I'd rather be a bit melancholy about Leia's quick off-screen death than angry at her legacy being ruined for the sake of subverting my expectations. haha.

^  Also a good point.

1 hour ago, The Founder said:

From what I read - they are going to use unused footage and splice it together. How that will make a death scene is beyond me. Unless they did film a death scene in this movie but decided not to use it? I'm not really sure. I bet when the DVD comes out - the behind the scenes may give us a bit more clarity on what Leia's original role in this movie was before any changes?

I’ll be curious to see if JJ Abrams will be able to make a decent death scene out of table scraps.  Here’s hoping.  Fisher deserved no less than a grand exit.

1 hour ago, The Founder said:

I was completely silent the entire ride home and my girlfriend thought I was just tired (we went to the midnight showing). She had no idea how livid I was. haha.

My wife and I usually applaud at the end of a movie we enjoy.   With TLJ, we both had our hands up to our chins... thinking.  Cringing.  

I think that was the first time I’d had that reaction in a Star Wars movie since Attack of the Clones (my least favorite).   Even ROTJ got some half-hearted applause out of us...

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7 hours ago, prometheus59650 said:

Honestly, and I'm just throwing this out here for myself. I really need to stop thinking about this movie because, the more I do, the more I hate it.

I'm having the same reaction. I left the theater thinking that the movie had some issues but was okay. The more time I have to pick it apart, the more I realize just how fatally flawed this movie was. The only reason I rank it ahead of the prequels is because the prequels had such awkward dialog. I found this youtube video in which I think a lot of good points were made.

The conflicting visions of the directors should have been ironed out before VII was made. 

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Hm, I'm on the side of cautiously liking the movie, although it left me with much less of a clear feeling on it than any other SW movie before.

My expectations weren't high, as I'm not a strong SW fan anyway, am not familiar with any of the EU, and basically just wanted to be solidly entertained for 2 hours+, and this the movie achieved well. It also felt "new", for the lack of a more elaborate word, in many places... at some point, I had really no idea what was coming, and that's a good thing.

A couple of scenes bothered me, as others have pointed out, Leia's sudden awakening in space for example, and I agree the entire casino thing was totally superfluous (also didn't quite fit into my idea of the SW universe... was too much Monaco-ish). That creature Luke milked was really weird, though I guess I found it funny, even though I immediately thought some people will trash the entire movie just because of that. :D

That Luke behaved the way he did, didn't really bother me, and a Jedi becoming bitter and hiding after screwing up isn't new either, but his appearance did not leave me with the tinging of nostalgia I got after seeing Han and Chewie again in TFA. And I do think it's a pity they missed the opportunity for a reunion between the three old characters.

Snoke also convinced me as long as he played a role, truly scary visage, but I'm still missing explanations as for where this First Order actually came from and what happened to the Republic Luke and Leia restored after ROTJ... TFA failed to explain that and we're still not any more informed after TLJ.

 

After reading Founder's criticism that the movie fails at deciding whether it wants to pander to nostalgia or open the stage for something new, my mind tells me this is absolutely true, though it doesn't bother me too much ... perhaps because SW just isn't as close to my heart as it is for others. When I see TLJ as an attempt to introduce a new approach and style (after the previous OT style and the PT style), it even makes me kind of curious for more (and that comes handy, as Disney will milk this cow as long as they can).

So... on the bottom line: It's an absolutely enjoyable movie for me, despite a few bad ideas here and there, and its tone even evokes some cautious anticipation... but it felt much less nostalgic, "like SW", than any other SW movie before.

I'm not sure where I'd rank it, but definitely above all three prequels, and not better than any of the original three.

Edited by Sim

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