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Robin Bland

THE LAST JEDI - Movie discussion and critique

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"Voyager was supposed to be BSG but it was TNG lite?"

No, Voyager was Lost in Space. In 1995 when it aired, nobody thought it was Battlestar Galactica. They thought it was LiS. Remember, new BSG did not appear until 2003, the first new BGS since 1982, unless you count the comics in the late 1990s. People just didn't like there being a female captain and a whiny spiritual first officer. They had a weird alien cook who was in love with a little sprite that lived 7 years. It was just odd. The Doctor and the Vulcan, and later the hot Borg in the cat suit became the break out characters. They dropped the Maquis rebel stuff like a hot potato about season 2. But save that for a Voyager thread. Ha. I think they've gone there.

"Dismissing and shattering expectations?"

Maybe my guess was a little on point. I don't think though that Rain Johnson intended to tick off a good chunk of the fans, but to call it just his 'narcissistic vision' is kind of amusing. Abrams is no more or less in that camp.

I actually liked the bitter old Luke on the island who didn't want to train anyone, anymore. If he was just space God, or demigod, he would just end the movie immediately.

We are operating on hindsight about the bittersweet Carrie Fisher/Leia parts, and I will have to see the film again. Rain did not intend for her arc to end. ASll of hedr scenes were completed before her death, and the floating scene was silly, but kind of cool, showing she too had powers of some kind.

Some of the plan was pointless though. Poe didn't have to mutiny at all. I agree on one of your points about that.

The casino planet leads somewhere. It was necessary for the intro of that new girl, Rose. I agree she is 'cute'. It was meant to be a fun scene.

The hyperspace scene was right out of one of my fan films, and some others out there, so I can't say they copied it. Loved it!

So Luke could return as some kind of demigod force ghost, really, and it would be nuts if Han did too.

Yeah, and where was Anakin? Maybe Snoke met with him, and he was like, my Grandson is  not worthy. Bah!

Snoke was not all that impressive in the first movie. He was so overblown, literally, I knew he would end up not being the force behind it, but then who is?

Jar Jar, man! Ha. You see, Jar Jar was actually behind it all along.

Here are some guesses:

And also there is Finn who would be Lando's kid, right? Even if he looks nothing like him. We have to connect every member of the family, right? So Rose is his sister. Ha.

Then there is the hacker, DJ, who is probably actually Rey's Father. Ooohhh...

And Snoke is Rey's Mother., through medichlorines.

Maybe Snoke was astral projecting too, and wasn't even on the ship. Ha.

You really wanted a Han Solo funeral scene for 5 minutes? Really? That would have been tacky. Fisher just died. Let's include a funeral in our movie. It was morbid enough that this actress's best role was her last, and that was sad enough! You are harsh.

But maybe Rose is secretly Rey's sister. Let's make em all related.

Lost in space.

The skype to the alien was not necessary, sure, but you have to have some humor there somewhere.

The 'can you hear me now' joke, yeah, that was old, but was a nod to ANH when they were trying to trick the dockmaster into landing the Falcon.

Did not mind them saying 'Godspeed' as we do not know what god they believe in. I believe that too to be a nod to the original trilogy also, where someone said a similar thing. After all, if they have 'hope' what is their hope in? They're not all Jedi. They must therfore have some sort of religious reason for 'hope' faith and fear. We just don't know what their god looks like.

 

Edited by Chimera82405

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2 hours ago, Chimera82405 said:

Did not mind them saying 'Godspeed' as we do not know what god they believe in. I believe that too to be a nod to the original trilogy also, where someone said a similar thing. After all, if they have 'hope' what is their hope in? They're not all Jedi. They must therfore have some sort of religious reason for 'hope' faith and fear. We just don't know what their god looks like.

"Thank the Maker". That's the reference to a religious being in the SW Universe(at least in the movies). Was there another one? I hear some people say that there was a nod to that in the OT but I can't recall what it was unless it is what I quoted.

Would have been cool if they could have come up with something along those lines instead of the very Christian 'God' that instantly takes you from that galaxy far far away and puts you right in your theater seat in good ol' USA since it is a very Eurocentric word. 

Here's a similar situation in Rogue One: "little sister"(xiao mei mei). Now, that doesn't mean anything to the rest of the world but for Chinese that was huge. That term is used as a term of endearment. That it's uttered by a Chinese star drives the point even further. 

While both are well meaning they are rooted in our cultures. They shouldn't be in Star Wars. 

 

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9 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

But [sigh] I agree with you. For the first part of the movie, I didn’t like how Luke was handled. This was a childhood hero of mine acting... childishly. I get that it was a redemptive arc, but even to have Yoda appear to tell him that he’s still not getting it rubbed a bit of salt into that wound. Pleased as I was to see Yoda again (as a muppet, no less, not that lifelessly grotesque CGI thing that haunted the prequels) and to hear the swell of his theme on the soundtrack, that scene hit me the wrong way. 

Luke was always a bit earnest. He’d always try to do the right thing, even if Yoda or Ben was telling him it was the wrong thing. He’d act as the conscience of his friends (particularly Han) and was intensely loyal to them. He was loyal to them above all else, to the cost of himself. I can forgive a bit of early cragginess in his disposition when Rey first turns up, but once Chewie appeared, he should’ve done an about-face and swung into action. Chewie IS one of his old friends! This was the first really major disappointment on the character front for me. That’s what I’m going to be looking closer at on a rewatch. 

^ So very much this.

9 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

Completely agree. It also threw away the mystery of Rey’s vision in TFA. Wonder what JJ thought of that? It defers the question to the third film. JJ’s not great on plot stands himself - it’s absolutely not one of his strong points. He’s a great director for emotion and spectacle, but tying up lose threads ain’t really his bag. I don’t want to read a load of tie-in material to get an answer on that, but I suspect that’s how it’ll be. We should call it the “Phasma effect.” 

While I agree that JJ Abrams isn’t exactly Master of the Loose Ends, I’m hoping (?) that his return for the ninth episode will answer some of that mystery with more clarity (or at ALL).  That vision at Maz’ place was fascinating and seemed to suggest a depth that TLJ just lacked.   Maybe that’s what disappointed me so much; the bait-and-switch storytelling of Rian Johnson was auteur bordering on obnoxious at times.   There were moments when TLJ felt like a middle finger to the TFA and I found that, as a fan, to be somewhat undeserved (to say the least).  As if Johnson was saying, “Okay fans of TFA; that was JJ’s thing...but here’s MINE.”  

Now, I understand the need of any and all creative people to put their stamp on a franchise, and I appreciate that (very much, in fact), but not to the point of ultimately compromising the material itself.  

There was a lot of bridge burning in TLJ (creatively and literally), but I’m just not sure the final result was justified it.   Do I want to see things going forward from this problematic vision of SW or would I have preferred something else?  The fact that I’m even asking that question probably answers it as well...

9 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

Damn, that was an epic post. 

Yeah, it was!  I’d offer you a cyber glass of water if I could...:laugh:

 

6 hours ago, Nombrecomun said:

Btw, that scene in Rogue One with Vader at the end is practically the only thing I watch in that movie, not that it was a bad movie. It just doesn't have much replay value. 

Hmm.   This is where different strokes for different folks comes to play, I suppose.

I actually find Rogue One gets more and more interesting each time I’ve rewatched it.  I’ve even played the audiobook, and I found it very involving.   It makes my personal top 4 of the SW movies. 

3 hours ago, Nombrecomun said:

"Thank the Maker". That's the reference to a religious being in the SW Universe(at least in the movies). Was there another one? I hear some people say that there was a nod to that in the OT but I can't recall what it was unless it is what I quoted.

Would have been cool if they could have come up with something along those lines instead of the very Christian 'God' that instantly takes you from that galaxy far far away and puts you right in your theater seat in good ol' USA since it is a very Eurocentric word. 

Here's a similar situation in Rogue One: "little sister"(xiao mei mei). Now, that doesn't mean anything to the rest of the world but for Chinese that was huge. That term is used as a term of endearment. That it's uttered by a Chinese star drives the point even further. 

While both are well meaning they are rooted in our cultures. They shouldn't be in Star Wars. 

Well... then again, you have Han in the first SW77 movie telling the princess, “What the hell are you doing?”  
Which ‘hell’ is he referring to? Christian hell?  Huttese hell?   It doesn’t matter.   It’s a generic term in our vernacular at this point.   I would put ‘godspeed’ in the same context.   It’s a common wish of good luck; it’s not necessarily a direct invocation of a deity.

And I’ve always taken Threepio’s ‘thank the maker’ line is a droid’s way of expressing gratitude to a literal maker; these are manufactured, artificial beings.  They would see humans as their literal makers.  

As for “xiao mei mei” being spoken by a Chinese actor?  Again; the story takes place "a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away"... and yet you have Brits and Americans speaking English.  Since the Chinese are a favorable chunk of the world’s population, why not throw a little something their way as well? 

 

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19 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

Founder, you sound quite aggrieved in this post, so I'm gonna come back tomorrow and read again and answer a few of your points more carefully than I can at this late hour. I actually agree with a lot of what you say, but I think I perceived the film in a far more overall positive light than you, despite the crappy mood I was in.

Robin Bland - sorry if I seemed like I was biting your head off. I am actually enjoying the conversation and the alternate points of views you all offer. This was more me rambling/venting. Plus, this is the only forum where I can actually criticize this movie without being dismissed as a "fanboy that's mad the movie isn't what I dreamed of in my diaries since RotJ."

I respect that you enjoyed the movie and found the positive in it. In fact, I agree with you that it had some great moments. As much as it hurts - I was very moved by Luke's end. The Rey/Kylo vs. Red Guards was absolutely incredible to watch. This movie, like the prequels was a flawed execution punctuated with wonderful moments.

You make good count points, Mr. Devil's Advocate. ;)

19 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

But [sigh] I agree with you. For the first part of the movie, I didn’t like how Luke was handled. This was a childhood hero of mine acting... childishly. I get that it was a redemptive arc, but even to have Yoda appear to tell him that he’s still not getting it rubbed a bit of salt into that wound. Pleased as I was to see Yoda again (as a muppet, no less, not that lifelessly grotesque CGI thing that haunted the prequels) and to hear the swell of his theme on the soundtrack, that scene hit me the wrong way. 

Exactly how I felt. I don't mind Luke being humanized and given flaws, but Luke already went through redemption and growth in the OT. Him going through it again seemed like a lazy story telling device. But I guess it is like you said - it's a message to not be complacent and that anyone, even a legend like Luke, can fall.

19 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

Like I say, each to their own.  I thought TFA was an exercise in honoring the past as far as possible (all those familiar plot beats) without necessarily taking the most expected path.  

I think TFA did a better job of honoring the character growth of Han/Leia. But it was disappointing to see they hadn't really moved much since the OT. It's like watching LotR after RotK decades later and Aragon went from being King of Gondor to a ranger aimlessly roaming the forests of Middle Earth. Who would want to see that?

I will say this - Han, despite his sad death, at least was treated with more respect than Luke. Han still seemed like the OT Han (to me at least).

19 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

It’s a really interesting question, with a multitude of answers. My experience is this. I sometimes teach creative writing and I hear this complaint a lot. What many people who make it then do, is go off and create their own fictional worlds, with its own set of rules. Or they write fanfic, and in a few (rare) cases, some of my ex-students have gone on to write their own tie-in fiction for big SF franchises. They’re the people who create the character progression in that media trash bin you mention of novels, comics,  games etc. It’s a vast industry, which employs millions of people - writers, all kinds of artists, FX techs, and so on, a heirarchy all the way up to the top execs. I always say, if you want to play in the big sandboxes, you play by the rules you’re given or you don’t last long. But you can looks elsewhere to create your own thing, too. 

And you’re correct in saying I don’t have a hatred of appealing to fans. I think that’s the right thing to do. What I’m trying to achieve, in my own head, is work out a positive course for me to appreciate the item that’s on offer - TLJ, right here and now. Sometimes I take a story as is, sometimes I try to understand the artistic intent behind it. Whatever works on any given day. But I truly don’t think any writer or director, whomever and whatever they are in these big franchises, wants to piss off fans. They want their work to be liked. They want it to be appreciated, and all ancillary work by others related to what they do, too. Most storytellers do (I can think of a few who genuinely don’t care, but not in the mainstream. That’s simply not how it works). They have to strike a balance between being original and satisfying fan expectations. That’s an extremely difficult thing to do. I can’t emphasise how much. Because, in the mind of every fan, they have a way of doing it better. And I agree, those pros don’t always get it right. That’s why I come here to this board, to sound off when they don’t (because, first and foremost, I’m a fan too, not a teacher). 

Very fair points, Robin. I get where you are coming from. That you focus on the intent and the good moments than nitpicking (as I often tend to do haha).

The thing is - for me - certain franchises are a tapestry from me. A cohesive universe that connects (plot holds aside). This is why I am the same way with Star Trek. One individual show may be good with characters or production values or etc. etc. etc. But if it does not fit into the wider tapestry or damages what came before or after (if its a prequel) then I take issue with it. No matter how good the character development is. I reject the idea (not an idea you are proposing) that a story in a beloved universe with a rich history cannot be done in a way that has both unique qualities but also connects beautifully with the rest of the universe.

I know I keep using this as an example but Rogue One is truly the perfect example of this. I'm not saying the movie is without flaws. I am saying that it was a nice stand alone film that tried Star Wars in a different way (a war movie meets heist movie). Yet - I can genuinely feel that R1 is connected to the OT. This can be done.

You are 100% right when you say that it is difficult (practically impossible) to match the expectations and wildest dreams of fans. Especially Star Wars where we had decades to dream up what happened to Luke, Leia, Han since RotJ. No one can match that. But .... it never needed to be exact. A pathway had already been laid out with RotJ. Empire defeated. Rebel Alliance set up to become the new Republic. Luke set up to bring back the Jedi. Within that path - a million surprises could have been unleashed via story telling in a passing the baton. I get that their intent was not to anger fans. They took a risk. For some people - it was great. For others - not so much. But my advice for any writer/director who wants to wade into a beloved franchise and give it their own spin? Know your audience ...

Thank you for the answer, though. I just see the whole "That idea is pure fan-service." as if this is a bad thing very odd. I get that writers don't want to be restricted by following strict guide lines laid down by the fans. Creativity can suffer heavily, but again ... there is a balance. These movies should be made for the fans because what are these franchises without their fans?

19 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

As an aside, I generally don’t like to trash the work of thousands of artists. Culturally, we tend to think of a film as the work of one person, the director. That’s horses#it, and a perception Hollywood and its media outlets enforce. It’s the work of many, not of one, but the system tends to reinforce the idea of some visionary over a huge team who bring these massive entertainments to life. It was partially true in George Lucas’ case, certainly it is in the likes of Spielberg’s, but that time is past. Johnson and even Abrams have had to earn their stripes. The power here is of course Kathleen Kennedy, and film is not a democracy. The best you can hope for is a kind of benign dictatorship, but you can bet your bottom dollar that if Kennedy didn’t like something Johnson created, it won’t have made it into TLJ. (See also Trevorrow, Lord & Miller.) Ultimately she and her story group execs passed his script and intentions, so perhaps save your ire for the force behind the visible throne. Modern big franchise storytelling is an industry, a huge machine of thousands of different people, many of them fans, all pulling in different directions, all subtly influencing the overall shape of the eventual story. 

Oh of course and I definitely did not mean to trash the novels/games/etc. I love all of that incredibly. I am just saying that if I had to choose between seeing Luke/Leia/Han in their primes - I'd rather see Hamil/Fisher/Ford than reading the books. Otherwise - this is no different than the EU I grew up reading since I first saw RotJ.

My only issue with falling back to the novels/games is that it is often a lazy narrative tool used more and more in shows and movies. The PT is especially egregious with this:

Wanted to see Obi-Wan and Anakin's friendship that we didn't see much of in the movies? Watch the cartoons.

Wanted to see more development of the villains? Watch the cartoons.

Wanted to see etc. etc. etc....

The novels/games should be nothing more than supplemental material.

You are right that this isn't solely on the shoulder of Rian Johnson.

19 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

I like the unexpected. I prefer to be surprised than not. It seems truer to life - things don’t always work out the way you want them to. And fiction of any kind - whether it’s kitchen sink drama created by one, sole dramatist, whether it’s TV, novels, whatever is your bag, is supposed to take you places you hadn’t thought of. But, y’know, in all honesty, I don’t really look for it anymore in these huge franchises. I look for the parts of it I like. I did see Johnson trying to do this, whether I agreed with the way he did it or not. I wish I’d liked TLJ more too, but I’m glad I didn’t have the experience you had. I thought there was some good stuff too. And, I get why you’re disappointed. I have fun dissing ALIEN, sure, but deep down I’d like it to be good, I’d like it to be the way I see it. Not gonna happen. I go for the spectacle, now. It’s not where the real dramatists are. They’re in TV, in theater, writing original novels, SF and not, comics, elsewhere. But not in big budget movie-making. I look for it elsewhere. We’re never going to get exactly the Star Wars movie we want. The problem with the big franchises steered by a few powerful people, is that they’re always going to disappoint on some level. 

The unexpected is great. I genuinely felt shock and awe when Kylo killed Snoke.

I am all for failure and divergent ideas on the progress of characters. Failure is true to life but so is success. ;)

You are right that I should just stop wishing that the Star Wars I was hoping for to reach fruition. It probably is better to just go along for the ride.

11 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

Damn, that was an epic post. 

I am impressed. ;)

7 hours ago, Nombrecomun said:

There is nothing wrong in developing new, younger characters. You have to. The mistake Disney is making is in cheapening the original cast of characters in order to make that happen. Simply put, they don't have someone in charge of this that invests properly in the story. You can develop both sets of characters. I'm starting to think that JJ is basically to movies what Family Guy is to tv in the sense of a cultural references and flashes in the pan. A deep moving experience isn't in his vocabulary. I suppose that makes him the perfect American producer/writer/director. But I'm left wanting more. 

In TFA, Snoke says that he needs to complete Kylo's training. Yet in this new movie Snoke berates him at every moment. That's a sudden change in relationship there. What happened? I guess we're supposed to suffer from short attention span that we didn't remember what just happened? Mind you, the movie is supposed to have picked up right after the last one ended so there wasn't any training or several years in between in which other events could have happened. It doesn't make sense.

That really is my only issue - I don't mind Luke/Han/Leia being background characters. This trilogy is for Rey/Finn/Poe. The PT is Anakin/Padme/Obi-Wan. I get that. Each trilogy gets its own heroes. But it's a real problem when the old have to be depicted this way just so these three can progress.

Yes - this movie didn't feel like a sequel to not just the OT but also to TFA. All the plot threads that were brought up were ignored. If Luke didn't want to be found - then why was there a map to him? Why did touching the lightsaber cause all those visions for Rey? As you said - the training of Kylo Ren ... went no where. What happened to the Republic and why does it seem like the Resistance consists of less than a 100 people?

I get that people were satisfied that Rey didn't have some "pure bloodline". She was just normal and reemphasized the idea that anyone can be a hero. The PT lost sight of this be making Anakin a Jedi Messiah (when no such thing was brought up about him in the OT). But ... why make a big stink about her parentage in the first movie then?

6 hours ago, Chimera82405 said:

"Voyager was supposed to be BSG but it was TNG lite?"

No, Voyager was Lost in Space. In 1995 when it aired, nobody thought it was Battlestar Galactica. They thought it was LiS. Remember, new BSG did not appear until 2003, the first new BGS since 1982, unless you count the comics in the late 1990s. People just didn't like there being a female captain and a whiny spiritual first officer. They had a weird alien cook who was in love with a little sprite that lived 7 years. It was just odd. The Doctor and the Vulcan, and later the hot Borg in the cat suit became the break out characters. They dropped the Maquis rebel stuff like a hot potato about season 2. But save that for a Voyager thread. Ha. I think they've gone there.

That's not what I meant. I'm not saying VOY was trying to copy Ron Moore's BSG. I'm saying that the premise of the show was meant to be what BSG became. A ship lost in space, alone fighting to survive and explore this new corner of the galaxy. It wasn't that.

6 hours ago, Chimera82405 said:

I actually liked the bitter old Luke on the island who didn't want to train anyone, anymore. If he was just space God, or demigod, he would just end the movie immediately.

I didn't want him to be a space god or demigod. Just not some loser who fell into a depression and did nothing to clean up the mess he supposedly made in the most uncharacteristic moment of his life.

6 hours ago, Chimera82405 said:

You really wanted a Han Solo funeral scene for 5 minutes? Really? That would have been tacky. Fisher just died. Let's include a funeral in our movie. It was morbid enough that this actress's best role was her last, and that was sad enough! You are harsh.

It didn't have to be a funeral but a reaction to his death would have been nice.

Carrie Fisher was still alive at this point ... hardly "tacky".

Not to mention - because Carrie Fisher died there can never be a mention of death in these movies? That literally makes no sense...

Edited by The Founder

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6 hours ago, Chimera82405 said:

"Dismissing and shattering expectations?"

Maybe my guess was a little on point. I don't think though that Rain Johnson intended to tick off a good chunk of the fans, but to call it just his 'narcissistic vision' is kind of amusing. Abrams is no more or less in that camp.

I actually liked the bitter old Luke on the island who didn't want to train anyone, anymore. If he was just space God, or demigod, he would just end the movie immediately.

We are operating on hindsight about the bittersweet Carrie Fisher/Leia parts, and I will have to see the film again. Rain did not intend for her arc to end. ASll of hedr scenes were completed before her death, and the floating scene was silly, but kind of cool, showing she too had powers of some kind.

Snoke was not all that impressive in the first movie. He was so overblown, literally, I knew he would end up not being the force behind it, but then who is?

Maybe Snoke was astral projecting too, and wasn't even on the ship. Ha.

You really wanted a Han Solo funeral scene for 5 minutes? Really? That would have been tacky. Fisher just died. Let's include a funeral in our movie. It was morbid enough that this actress's best role was her last, and that was sad enough! You are harsh.

Did not mind them saying 'Godspeed' as we do not know what god they believe in. I believe that too to be a nod to the original trilogy also, where someone said a similar thing. After all, if they have 'hope' what is their hope in? They're not all Jedi. They must therfore have some sort of religious reason for 'hope' faith and fear. We just don't know what their god looks like.

 

Maybe Star Wars is using something like a universal translator and the program is designed to make it sound like some of them are British or Asian or black, or whatnot. Yeah, I forgot about the hell line. If Han thinks of there as being a hell, surely there is a heaven.

I really did like the film, will see it again. Yeah, I know there wasnt really anything tacky, but it seemed at the time I posted, that in hndsight, the producers probably decided on leaving it out for pacing, not for tact. Yeah, pacing.

Actually one of the oddities is time line the story, and the First Order appears to be far less competent since they blew up StarKiller base. Snoke had all that? Really?

And as one of you posted, 'how do we know Kylo Ren isn't lying about Rey's parents?

No, DJ is not her father. I was kidding. Jar Jar however, could be behind it all. "Meesah sense da conspiraceesahg. Da imbalancee in the force jedii thingee, whee. Me is behindah it all! Mwahaha...hai Rey." Just kidding. 

"The Force surrounds us, binds us, and is all in us. You can channel it, but it is not good or evil. It is what you do with it. It is like an embodiment of hope and fear. (Chi energy maybe)."

Surely they have some meta concepts of some form of higher power, but is is generic in the SW universe. It seems more like "The nine billion names of god." or like "the very nature of nature itself". Very geia and zen too. Seems a mix match of all sorts of things. No wonder some of them becomes hermits on islands. Heh.

Edited by Chimera82405

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1 hour ago, Sehlat Vie said:
10 minutes ago, The Founder said:

 

Well... then again, you have Han in the first SW77 movie telling the princess, “What the hell are you doing?”  
Which ‘hell’ is he referring to? Christian hell?  Huttese hell?   It doesn’t matter.   It’s a generic term in our vernacular at this point.   I would put ‘godspeed’ in the same context.   It’s a common wish of good luck; it’s not necessarily a direct invocation of a deity.

Good point. I overlooked that one. Yes 'hell' is vernacular. Godspeed isn't. Can't recall anyone ever using that around me. It's not common. It is jolting...because it isn't common parlance. "May The Force be with you" would have been the perfect thing to say in that moment...and it's actually more in every day use than Godspeed! :)

1 hour ago, Sehlat Vie said:

As for “xiao mei mei” being spoken by a Chinese actor?  Again; the story takes place "a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away"... and yet you have Brits and Americans speaking English.  Since the Chinese are a favorable chunk of the world’s population, why not throw a little something their way as well? 

Totally. But that wasn't the point of my comment. Perhaps I didn't state it properly. It's the fact that it is something that comes from our world although most non-Chinese wouldn't recognize it. Yes, Star Wars actors are Brits and Americans(and now a couple more other nationalities finally). That actually can't be helped, right? It's not like we can get actual aliens. But we can heighten the disbelief of 'otherworldliness' with language. Is 'nerfherder' all of a sudden too weird for audiences to understand? Does this modern day audience need "big ass door" to understand? Btw, I'd love to hear how this sounds in other languages: Spanish: la puerta culona, Chinese: da pigu men. It's so out of place. 

 

6 hours ago, Chimera82405 said:

You really wanted a Han Solo funeral scene for 5 minutes? Really? That would have been tacky. Fisher just died. Let's include a funeral in our movie. It was morbid enough that this actress's best role was her last, and that was sad enough! You are harsh.

No, no one said or suggested a 5 minute funeral scene. However, the movie does pick up right after the events of the last movie, not two years after. A major person in the Star Wars saga dies, by his own son's hand, and there are no after effects of this. Was there even a mention? I can't recall. Darth Vader died several decades ago and these movies are based on him.

Maybe they didn't have time to mourn since it just happened. I'm game. Then they should have been frantic trying to protect Leia from her son who just murdered his father. But no. No such urgency or conversation that I recall. 

This is not good storytelling.

 

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3 hours ago, Nombrecomun said:

It is jolting...because it isn't common parlance. "May The Force be with you" would have been the perfect thing to say in that moment...and it's actually more in every day use than Godspeed! :)

An equally good point...:laugh:

 

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10 hours ago, Nombrecomun said:

Totally. But that wasn't the point of my comment. Perhaps I didn't state it properly. It's the fact that it is something that comes from our world although most non-Chinese wouldn't recognize it. Yes, Star Wars actors are Brits and Americans(and now a couple more other nationalities finally). That actually can't be helped, right? It's not like we can get actual aliens. But we can heighten the disbelief of 'otherworldliness' with language. Is 'nerfherder' all of a sudden too weird for audiences to understand? Does this modern day audience need "big ass door" to understand? Btw, I'd love to hear how this sounds in other languages: Spanish: la puerta culona, Chinese: da pigu men. It's so out of place. 

And that’s a good point as well.

I remember reading (somewhere?) many years ago that in the original SW77 some of the Jawas were actually speaking a modified Zulu dialect (sped up, of course). I imagine if a Zulu SW fan with a sharp ear were watching that first film, they might find it funny that the ‘aliens’ were speaking his/her language and that the human characters were speaking something ‘alien’ to them...:laugh:

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6 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

And that’s a good point as well.

I remember reading (somewhere?) many years ago that in the original SW77 some of the Jawas were actually speaking a modified Zulu dialect (sped up, of course). I imagine if a Zulu SW fan with a sharp ear were watching that first film, they might find it funny that the ‘aliens’ were speaking his/her language and that the human characters were speaking something ‘alien’ to them...:laugh:

Yep, I recall the same thing happened with Nien Nunb, Lando's Falcon co-pilot in Return of the Jedi. 

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2 hours ago, Nombrecomun said:

Yep, I recall the same thing happened with Nien Nunb, Lando's Falcon co-pilot in Return of the Jedi. 

Somewhere an audience member in some part of the world watches a Star Wars movie and says, “Why did that copilot just say 'the green potatoes taste like bad weather’ ?” :laugh:

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2 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Somewhere an audience member in some part of the world watches a Star Wars movie and says, “Why did that copilot just say 'the green potatoes taste like bad weather’ ?” :laugh:

LOL!!! I remember reading this back in the day

https://www.csmonitor.com/1983/0728/072823.html

 

I suppose our world is a lot smaller nowadays than back in 1983. 

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"Godspeed" is quite common among world war 2 veterans. It likely does invoke a deity and also mean good luck. My late Father said it and his friends at the coffee shop said it, and I've included it in my science fiction stories.

"The milking scene" Wow, yeah, that was messed up, and also a IDGAS moment for Luke there.

A millennial (18 to 20 range) who is my niece's age just saw it and loved it, and has seen the other ones. She liked it also because it had an Asian American actress in it, (as the girl who is my niece's friend is Japanese).

Most of the "haters" seem to be x gen and early millennial types (30 to 45 age range), who spent all their time guessing and were disappointed when it subverted all of their guesses, well most, but not all.

I'm going to see it again shortly.

Actually in the first film wasn't there a line from the general to Vader about 'that silly old religion' referring to the Force, and he gets choked, using the Force? So really the Sith and Jedi are like cults. So the Force be with you, is exactly like saying god speed.

Good luck originally referred to 'god's luck' anyway. Just as 'good will' was 'god's will', so semantics.

That scene where Ren fires all his guns on Luke and he is like, still there, that was awesome!

Still, you cannot 'drop bombs' in low gravity onto a ship unless its gravity is higher, (The millennial girl said this today), or they were magnetic bombs and the tyrigger was to magnetize them.

Chewie having cooked up one of those "grumpy cat/angry birds/gremlin' porgs was pretty funny. especially the sad look on it's face like, you beast, you just killed my Mommy! Then the little orphaned rub rat bird thing goes with him on the Falcon, to get his...revenge! Only instead he doesn't. Oh, please someone come up with that fan fic!

Here, buy our toys, buy them now! Everything in it was to sell a toy, but that's what it is today.

I liked the Nostalgia Critic and Red Letter Media reviews, and also the Kevin Smith one (he is 47 as I am) and I agree most with Kevin Smith, who was invested in the story and not worried if there were some off scenes, and it was still great.

Edited by Chimera82405

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I was neither a lover nor a hater of the movie.   I just thought it had missed opportunities and a few genuinely off-the-mark creative/editorial choices, but it was (more or less) entertaining.  But I didn’t leave the theatre with the same giddy enthusiasm I had after TFA or R1.   The nagging issues I had with the film kinda prevented me from feeling that. 

But I wouldn’t classify myself as a ‘hater’ either; simply an honest critic.

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1 minute ago, Sehlat Vie said:

I was neither a lover nor a hater of the movie.   I just thought it had missed opportunities and a few genuinely off-the-mark creative/editorial choices, but it was (more or less) entertaining.  But I didn’t leave the theatre with the same giddy enthusiasm I had after TFA or R1.   The nagging issues I had with the film kinda prevented me from feeling that. 

But I wouldn’t classify myself as a ‘hater’ either; simply an honest critic.

I find myself here and in that same place I am with Into Darlness. I get all the problems with it and don't even disagree. I still liked it.

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6 hours ago, Chimera82405 said:

"The milking scene" Wow, yeah, that was messed up, and also a IDGAS moment for Luke there.

What does 'IDGAS' mean?

 

6 hours ago, Chimera82405 said:

A millennial (18 to 20 range) who is my niece's age just saw it and loved it, and has seen the other ones. She liked it also because it had an Asian American actress in it, (as the girl who is my niece's friend is Japanese).

Most of the "haters" seem to be x gen and early millennial types (30 to 45 age range), who spent all their time guessing and were disappointed when it subverted all of their guesses, well most, but not all.

I appreciate that you put haters in quotations. I think in our modern culture we like to simplify things into the least bits of mental space. So it's either "loved it" or "hate it" when it's really more complex than that. I think the problem I've seen with articles and opinions is the latter half of your sentence that assumes that the reason that people didn't like the movie was because the movie didn't pan out the way they had been thinking of it in the last two years(or 40). I'm sure there's an element of that but there's also the bigger element of dropping story lines from one movie to the next. 

 

6 hours ago, Chimera82405 said:

Actually in the first film wasn't there a line from the general to Vader about 'that silly old religion' referring to the Force, and he gets choked, using the Force? So really the Sith and Jedi are like cults. So the Force be with you, is exactly like saying god speed.

Yes that sentence was there. I think Han Solo also refers to it like that as well in conversation with Kenobi if I'm not mistaken. No, it doesn't mean that Sith and Jedi were like cults although it could certainly be thought of as that. The impression you get from Star Wars is that this whole Jedi/Sith thing was a long time ago, not the ~30 years in between Ep III and Ep IV, and that most people didn't understand The Force or that it was so rare, etc.... TLJ treats The Force, or at least Jedism(?) as a religion, with sacred texts, holy places, etc...That was rather shocking to me. I'm not a rabid fan but that's not something that seemed outstanding from what I've followed in Star Wars(video games, anime, etc...). In other words, it was other people in the SWU who didn't understand The Force that saw it as a cult/religion when it wasn't anything like that. The prequels certainly didn't have a religious angle to The Force. I don't think it's a big deal but it's very strange. 

 

6 hours ago, Chimera82405 said:

That scene where Ren fires all his guns on Luke and he is like, still there, that was awesome!

Totally. It was very cool. And, while many bemoan Luke's exit from the physical plane because of that last battle scene, I thought it fit well. He was exhausted. He had severed his link to The Force and it took all his power to do what he did. And it took a toll. Regardless, of his story arc in this movie, I thought that was a poetic exit. 

 

6 hours ago, Chimera82405 said:

Chewie having cooked up one of those "grumpy cat/angry birds/gremlin' porgs was pretty funny. especially the sad look on it's face like, you beast, you just killed my Mommy! Then the little orphaned rub rat bird thing goes with him on the Falcon, to get his...revenge! Only instead he doesn't. Oh, please someone come up with that fan fic!

I couldn't find it funny. I suppose it's one thing to see Chewie eat one of those things 'cause what else is there to eat. But to have the survivors(?) look at him in horror was cruel. I don't know if they were quite sentient but it seemed to me they understood what happened. 

7 hours ago, Chimera82405 said:

Here, buy our toys, buy them now! Everything in it was to sell a toy, but that's what it is today.

Yep, the Porgs were exactly that for sure. But then again SW also had that built into it so I suppose that's continuing with...ahem... tradition. 

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On 12/20/2017 at 2:29 AM, The Founder said:

Robin Bland - sorry if I seemed like I was biting your head off. I am actually enjoying the conversation and the alternate points of views you all offer. This was more me rambling/venting. Plus, this is the only forum where I can actually criticize this movie without being dismissed as a "fanboy that's mad the movie isn't what I dreamed of in my diaries since RotJ."

I respect that you enjoyed the movie and found the positive in it. In fact, I agree with you that it had some great moments. As much as it hurts - I was very moved by Luke's end. The Rey/Kylo vs. Red Guards was absolutely incredible to watch. This movie, like the prequels was a flawed execution punctuated with wonderful moments.

You make good count points, Mr. Devil's Advocate. ;)

Glad you think so. Likewise! I’m on the run, so don’t have time to respond more fully, but just wanted to acknowledge your equally thoughtful reply! :) 

Hopefully I’ll have time to come back to this thread later. Hoping I’ll get a chance to see the film in a movie theater again in the next couple of weeks. 

 

Oh yeah, and I found this article that pertains to some of what we are all talking about here. 

https://io9.gizmodo.com/rian-johnson-responds-to-fan-question-about-polarizing-1821528419

Interesting to see that link Prome posted too about Hamill’s own thoughts on how Luke was presented in TLJ. I suppose that was my biggest issue - throughout the Ahch-To sequences, he didn’t seem much like a Jedi. 

 

On 12/20/2017 at 2:29 AM, The Founder said:

Exactly how I felt. I don't mind Luke being humanized and given flaws, but Luke already went through redemption and growth in the OT. Him going through it again seemed like a lazy story telling device. But I guess it is like you said - it's a message to not be complacent and that anyone, even a legend like Luke, can fall.

I guess that’s what I’ll be telling myself on my second viewing... 

 

Also an interesting essay on villain Kylo Ren at Slashfilm:

http://www.slashfilm.com/star-wars-kylo-ren-redemption/

 

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1 hour ago, Robin Bland said:

Glad you think so. Likewise! I’m on the run, so don’t have time to respond more fully, but just wanted to acknowledge your equally thoughtful reply! :) 

Hopefully I’ll have time to come back to this thread later. Hoping I’ll get a chance to see the film in a movie theater again in the next couple of weeks. 

 

Oh yeah, and I found this article that pertains to some of what we are all talking about here. 

https://io9.gizmodo.com/rian-johnson-responds-to-fan-question-about-polarizing-1821528419

Interesting to see that link Prome posted too about Hamill’s own thoughts on how Luke was presented in TLJ. I suppose that was my biggest issue - throughout the Ahch-To sequences, he didn’t seem much like a Jedi. 

 

I guess that’s what I’ll be telling myself on my second viewing... 

 

Also an interesting essay on villain Kylo Ren at Slashfilm:

http://www.slashfilm.com/star-wars-kylo-ren-redemption/

 

I read that press piece with Hamill this morning and I have to say I kinda agree...

Once again, Founder's words kept coming back to me; "It was a great performance.  Too bad it wasn't Luke Skwywalker."

That sums up my feelings on Luke in TLJ exactly.  I can't see Luke just cutting and running because he screwed up and thought about killing his own nephew.   This was the guy who tried to redeem Darth Vader (!).   In all scenarios, I just had a really hard time believing that Luke would turn into Clint Eastwood in "Gran Torino" or Mr. Frederickson in "Up."  

At the very least, I would imagine he'd see Rey's coming to his planet and finding his father's lightsaber as a sign that maybe (?) it was time to get back on the horse and set things right.  

Yes, I fully accept/understand that people change, and that age makes some bitter, but this...just didn't feel like Luke's arc.  At least not the arc I envisioned in my mind's eye (got a splinter there...oh, that better; hehe) nor Hamill's, apparently.

Maybe he was playing "Jake Skywalker" (to quote Hamill himself) after all...

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8 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

That sums up my feelings on Luke in TLJ exactly.  I can't see Luke just cutting and running because he screwed up and thought about killing his own nephew.   This was the guy who tried to redeem Darth Vader (!).   In all scenarios, I just had a really hard time believing that Luke would turn into Clint Eastwood in "Gran Torino" or Mr. Frederickson in "Up."  

I can see him hiding out for a year or five. Hell, maybe even thirty...biding his time. Obi-Wan did it. Yoda did it. Sure, he was afraid of Ben and he made a mistake. He was afraid of Rey. Maybe he DOES think the Jedi as we've understood them need to die

That's all fine. I can deal with that.

What kills Luke here is the complete absence of HOPE. That's all Luke has ever been. Hope for an exciting life beyond condensing water for a living. Hope for the rebellion. Hope to become a Jedi. Hope to redeem his father. Hope for the future. Hope for Ben and the Jedi to be.

And I don't even mind that he's still broken and afraid when Rey comes.

But a broken, bitter old man is all he really stays. She doesn't help him find a reason to come back nor does he really find it in himself. It feels like he just shows up to help his sister out of a jam. There's no energy, life, or hope in it.

That's where I agree with Hamill and that's where a lot of this backlash came from that I can tell Johnson was in NO WAY expecting, to happen. 

Edited by prometheus59650

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1 hour ago, prometheus59650 said:

I can see him hiding out for a year or five. Hell, maybe even thirty...biding his time. Obi-Wan did it. Yoda did it. Sure, he was afraid of Ben and he made a mistake. He was afraid of Rey. Maybe he DOES think the Jedi as we've understood them need to die

That's all fine. I can deal with that.

What kills Luke here is the complete absence of HOPE. That's all Luke has ever been. Hope for an exciting life beyond condensing water for a living. Hope for the rebellion. Hope to become a Jedi. Hope to redeem his father. Hope for the future. Hope for Ben and the Jedi to be.

And I don't even mind that he's still broken and afraid when Rey comes.

But a broken, bitter old man is all he really stays. She doesn't help him find a reason to come back nor does he really find it in himself. It feels like he just shows up to help his sister out of a jam. There's no energy, life, or hope in it.

That's where I agree with Hamill and that's where a lot of this backlash came from that I can tell Johnson was in NO WAY expecting, to happen. 

^ Once again, agreed.  And your statement is far better articulated. 

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Thoughts at the moment:

Significantly better than TFA, which makes the return of JJ for the next one a bit disappointing. Kylo, Rey, Snoke, Poe, Leia...they all had better character material to work with. Snoke, in the previous movie, was flat and boring. In this movie he was still fairly boring, but he at least carried a sense of menace. I didn't care much about his character, so I'm not joining those who are unhappy about his sudden removal -- honestly, Kylo was always the real focus when it came to the antagonists. Poe gets to be flawed but sympathetic. Leia comes across as more of an actual character this time. Kylo is a bit more interesting, as is Rey. The new character, Rose, seems fairly cool.

I'm still thinking about Luke. That moment where he stands over Kylo with the lightsaber...I find it just a bit too much for me. Maybe I'll change my mind. Either way, Luke was generally decent throughout, aside from that one scene.

I'm a little surprised to hear about the big backlash to the movie...is it mainly due to the depiction of Luke?

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4 minutes ago, Explorer3 said:

I'm a little surprised to hear about the big backlash to the movie...is it mainly due to the depiction of Luke?

That seems to be the consensus: that Johnson ruined Luke and did it for the sake of his own creations.

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I seem to recall that Hamill, after learning about details in TLJ, said something along the lines of, 'I disagree with everything you have decided for my character' to Johnson. I wonder why Johnson was so insistent on this particular depiction of Luke? It still worked for me, aside from that one scene I mentioned, but it would have been nice to see other elements of the character (linking in to some of what you all have been discussing in this thread). There was a small moment when Luke sees R2D2 again and his face just lights up, and I think he looks actually quite happy. I liked that scene.

Edited by Explorer3

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