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Robin Bland

THE LAST JEDI - Movie discussion and critique

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1 hour ago, Sehlat Vie said:

I enjoyed it, but I didn’t love it quite as much as I’d hoped.

Here’s why on my blog (tried to keep it spoiler-free, for the most part): https://musingsofamiddleagedgeek.blog/2017/12/16/first-impressions-of-the-last-jedi/

I think it boils down to two things that you touched on your blog:

1) Overall while I was satisfied with most of the Rey with Luke bits on his little hidey-island, I would like to have seen him TEACH her something, which he sort of never bothered to do, instead sort of using her as a therapy tool over Ben and telling her what she was doing wrong. I don't need an 80s movie montage, but one is sort of left to wonder what she got out of her time with Luke from Luke.

2) It needs editing. DJ doesn't matter. Phasma doesn't matter. One could have made some barriers within the escaping fleet that kept them from immediately trying to go after Snoke's destroyer. The Casino Royale bit doesn't matter. Its only relevance is as an exposition point for Rose and that could have easily been done elsewhere. Add to that lingering shots of ship porn that pile up after a while, a decent editor could have pared that movie down to 1:50, at least and lost nothing that mattered in the process. 

Edited by prometheus59650

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No spoilers.

I liked that the movie clearly was self aware and the writers seemed to know about all the fan theories, and 'possibly' tossed almost every one out the window. That is why the fans are mad. None of their weird ideas about Snoke's ring or Rey's relations, hyper exaggerated over the course of over 2 yewars, (which is not as spoiler), actual pna out the way you or they might have thought. They were doing some serious research to surprise.

It's almost as good as Empire.

I was 10 when Empire came out. I was one of those who figured out the twist just because of the language. Well, he's Dark Father, so he's someone's Daddy, so maybe...Luke! (1980). I'm surprised that other then fans did not kick our butts for the reveal, 'Darth Vader, dark father, eh?'. Guess they assumed I was guessing and didn't freak out. I was guessing. This was even more confusing to me then considering I had not seen Star Wars at that point! I saw the sequel first and we rented the vhs.

Fans nowadays would likely go to war over a reveal by some kind in a theater.

But no, none of what I said spoils anything. I think the expectations are going to soil it, so go see it without them, and be entertained.

Edited by Chimera82405

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2 hours ago, prometheus59650 said:

I think it boils down to two things that you touched on your blog:

1) Overall while I was satisfied with most of the Rey with Luke bits on his little hidey-island, I would like to have seen him TEACH her something, which he sort of never bothered to do, instead sort of using her as a therapy tool over Ben and telling her what she was doing wrong. I don't need an 80s movie montage, but one is sort of left to wonder what she got out of her time with Luke from Luke.

2) It needs editing. DJ doesn't matter. Phasma doesn't matter. One could have made some barriers within the escaping fleet that kept them from immediately trying to go after Snoke's destroyer. The Casino Royale bit doesn't matter. Its only relevance is as an exposition point for Rose and that could have easily been done elsewhere. Add to that lingering shots of ship porn that pile up after a while, a decent editor could have pared that movie down to 1:50, at least and lost nothing that mattered in the process. 

Casino Royale Planet, or as I called it on the way home, “Planet Monakko” (hehe) was a waste of time.  

When they first got there, I half expected Finn and Rose to run into these ladies...

 

:giggle:

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8 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Casino Royale Planet, or as I called it on the way home, “Planet Monakko” (hehe) was a waste of time.  

When they first got there, I half expected Finn and Rose to run into these ladies...

 

:giggle:

It's like, "Let's just show a classy Mos Eisley. Does it matter why?"

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First impressions, then...

 

 

 

[SPOILERS]

I felt like it took a really long time to get started. Not the space battle, which was very cool and exciting, but the Ach-To stuff between Luke and Rey, which was a big letdown. The lightsaber chucked over the shoulder was funny, and I liked that Johnson wrongfoots you a lot throughout the film with both characters' intentions and the moods of scenes and where they might be heading. It's quite unpredictable, and that's a big plus when used properly. It isn't always, though - sometimes the humor almost lapses into self-parody, that self-referential knowingness that a lot of modern filmmakers use to wink at the audience and let us know they're fans, too. Just tell the frakking story. To that point, some of the vernacular seemed really out of place also - "Bigass door, " Godspeed." they're just too obviously Milky Way local, not from a galaxy long ago and far, far away. I always loved that Star Wars had its own, completely homegrown set of rules when it came to language and profanity. You Nerf-herder, Johnson.

Hamill is magnificent - he's so raw. He elevates every scene he's in, even if i didn't like the way the scene went. It's his film.

Loved Rose. She's terrific. Boeyaga as Finn is terrific. The Canto Bight sequence is not. In fact, it really drags. At this point, i was beginning to get nervous that, for me, this one was going to go the way of Attack of the Clones.

But it didn't. The drama between Rey and Ren is superb - this is really top-notch character development. The progression of both, how they come together and then are repelled, and the consequences thereof, is great stuff. Really enjoyed this, really enjoyed the Snoke throne chamber lightsaber scenes and how their interactions all played out. Fantastic stuff. Need i commend the actors too? Ridley and Driver are exceptional throughout. Elevating Ren to chief baddie was a stroke of genius. If it's true that Rey really is just ordinary, I love that too. Please don't out her as a long lost Kenobi in the next film.

Carrie Fisher doing a Mary Poppins when she's been blown out into space is a bit much and strained my credulity a bit. I loved her - and all the manipulative bits, like Artoo projecting the "Obi-Wan" message got me exactly as intended. But I felt like she was sidelined, and not onscreen enough. Even so, seeing her, hearing that Leia theme was an emotional experience. They got old too, didn't they? Luke and Leia. Just like all us ten-year olds who met them first back in 1977 did. I also felt like Chewie and Artoo were sidelined to what amounted to cameos. I liked that Chewie ate the porgs. Frak the frakking porgs. At least Threepio got a few lines.

Phasma was totally pointless. I like Gwendoline Christie, but bringing her back to make me read a comic about how the character got out of a trash compacter at the end of The Force Awakens is so cynical I now just hate the character. I will not bend to your marketing will in this area, Disney. i just won't. That was deeply tedious and frak you.

But the cinematography in that sequence was mind-blowingly gorgeous.

The whole film is based around a retreat, albeit a worthy one, but it's a brief event in story terms. In character terms, it's huge, and there's an undeniable emotional turbocharge towards the ending. I'm going to have to see it again to process all that, because quite honestly, when i saw Hamill and Fisher onscreen together again, something really big got caught in my eyes and i missed that bit.

Rose saving Finn, and the subtle acknowledgement of Rey seeing him care for her later, after she and Finn's genuinely heartfelt reunion, is nice. Still thought Poe and Finn had the hots for each other, though.

 I've missed things - I'll remember and say later. I liked Isaacs and BB-8 and Laura Dern. While lacking some of the feelgood color of TFA, it also feels like a more mature Star Wars. And when those twin suns are going down at the end, it does feel earned.

That said, it's far from a flawless entry and is no Empire. It's no AotC, either. There was a lot of really good stuff, but it needed a tighter script, just a polish to rid it of some bumps, plus a tighter edit too. 

 

 

5 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

I enjoyed it, but I didn’t love it quite as much as I’d hoped.

Here’s why on my blog (tried to keep it spoiler-free, for the most part): https://musingsofamiddleagedgeek.blog/2017/12/16/first-impressions-of-the-last-jedi/

 

Might have known you would've picked up on loads of the same points, Sehlat...!

4 hours ago, prometheus59650 said:

I think it boils down to two things that you touched on your blog:

1) Overall while I was satisfied with most of the Rey with Luke bits on his little hidey-island, I would like to have seen him TEACH her something, which he sort of never bothered to do, instead sort of using her as a therapy tool over Ben and telling her what she was doing wrong. I don't need an 80s movie montage, but one is sort of left to wonder what she got out of her time with Luke from Luke.

Yeah, exactly my problem with those scenes too.

 

On 12/15/2017 at 4:02 PM, Nombrecomun said:

I also did not enjoy the language. Specifically "big ass door" and even "Godspeed" are really out of place words and phrases. 

It's really very lazy writing. They know they have a captive audience so to speak. 

 

Ha, I hadn't read your post when I wrote mine - I picked up on the exact same phrases. They had the effect of jolting you out of your immersion in the SW world.

I'm not sure if it's lazy writing so much as a cultural shorthand that almost every mainstream filmmaker uses these days. It's comprehensible to everyone - but I totally agree; he should've gone the extra mile to express stuff like this within the established SW lingo rules.

Edited by Robin Bland

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1 hour ago, Robin Bland said:

First impressions, then...

 

 

 

[SPOILERS]

Carrie Fisher doing a Mary Poppins when she's been blown out into space is a bit much and strained my credulity a bit.

I was cringing a bit when they showed her floating in space. I kept on thinking this would be a horrible homage if that was the intent of it. But I loved it. It worked for me. It was great to see that Leia too could use the Force. If that's the last we'll see of that character then I'm glad that's there. 

I also loved the scene between Luke and Leia. Very heartfelt and touching with that bit of humour. 

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1 hour ago, Robin Bland said:

First impressions, then...

 

 

 

[SPOILERS]

I felt like it took a really long time to get started. Not the space battle, which was very cool and exciting, but the Ach-To stuff between Luke and Rey, which was a big letdown. The lightsaber chucked over the shoulder was funny, and I liked that Johnson wrongfoots you a lot throughout the film with both characters' intentions and the moods of scenes and where they might be heading. It's quite unpredictable, and that's a big plus when used properly. It isn't always, though - sometimes the humor almost lapses into self-parody, that self-referential knowingness that a lot of modern filmmakers use to wink at the audience and let us know they're fans, too. Just tell the frakking story. To that point, some of the vernacular seemed really out of place also - "Bigass door, " Godspeed." they're just too obviously Milky Way local, not from a galaxy long ago and far, far away. I always loved that Star Wars had its own, completely homegrown set of rules when it came to language and profanity. You Nerf-herder, Johnson.

Hamill is magnificent - he's so raw. He elevates every scene he's in, even if i didn't like the way the scene went. It's his film.

Loved Rose. She's terrific. Boeyaga as Finn is terrific. The Canto Bight sequence is not. In fact, it really drags. At this point, i was beginning to get nervous that, for me, this one was going to go the way of Attack of the Clones.

But it didn't. The drama between Rey and Ren is superb - this is really top-notch character development. The progression of both, how they come together and then are repelled, and the consequences thereof, is great stuff. Really enjoyed this, really enjoyed the Snoke throne chamber lightsaber scenes and how their interactions all played out. Fantastic stuff. Need i commend the actors too? Ridley and Driver are exceptional throughout. Elevating Ren to chief baddie was a stroke of genius. If it's true that Rey really is just ordinary, I love that too. Please don't out her as a long lost Kenobi in the next film.

Carrie Fisher doing a Mary Poppins when she's been blown out into space is a bit much and strained my credulity a bit. I loved her - and all the manipulative bits, like Artoo projecting the "Obi-Wan" message got me exactly as intended. But I felt like she was sidelined, and not onscreen enough. Even so, seeing her, hearing that Leia theme was an emotional experience. They got old too, didn't they? Luke and Leia. Just like all us ten-year olds who met them first back in 1977 did. I also felt like Chewie and Artoo were sidelined to what amounted to cameos. I liked that Chewie ate the porgs. Frak the frakking porgs. At least Threepio got a few lines.

Phasma was totally pointless. I like Gwendoline Christie, but bringing her back to make me read a comic about how the character got out of a trash compacter at the end of The Force Awakens is so cynical I now just hate the character. I will not bend to your marketing will in this area, Disney. i just won't. That was deeply tedious and frak you.

But the cinematography in that sequence was mind-blowingly gorgeous.

The whole film is based around a retreat, albeit a worthy one, but it's a brief event in story terms. In character terms, it's huge, and there's an undeniable emotional turbocharge towards the ending. I'm going to have to see it again to process all that, because quite honestly, when i saw Hamill and Fisher onscreen together again, something really big got caught in my eyes and i missed that bit.

Rose saving Finn, and the subtle acknowledgement of Rey seeing him care for her later, after she and Finn's genuinely heartfelt reunion, is nice. Still thought Poe and Finn had the hots for each other, though.

 I've missed things - I'll remember and say later. I liked Isaacs and BB-8 and Laura Dern. While lacking some of the feelgood color of TFA, it also feels like a more mature Star Wars. And when those twin suns are going down at the end, it does feel earned.

That said, it's far from a flawless entry and is no Empire. It's no AotC, either. There was a lot of really good stuff, but it needed a tighter script, just a polish to rid it of some bumps, plus a tighter edit too. 

 

 

 

Might have known you would've picked up on loads of the same points, Sehlat...!

Yeah, exactly my problem with those scenes too.

 

Ha, I hadn't read your post when I wrote mine - I picked up on the exact same phrases. They had the effect of jolting you out of your immersion in the SW world.

I'm not sure if it's lazy writing so much as a cultural shorthand that almost every mainstream filmmaker uses these days. It's comprehensible to everyone - but I totally agree; he should've gone the extra mile to express stuff like this within the established SW lingo rules.

I could’ve written this myself... but it wouldn’t have had your touch, Robin.  :thumbup:

It was funny; my wife and I also had the exact same reaction while our friend we went with unabashedly loved it.   I wanted to love it; indeed, I saw it in a great theatre under near-ideal circumstances.  But... I wound up only liking it, instead. 

A few of your points I also wanted to add a verbal thumbs up to:

 

* SPOILERS *

 

 

* Capt. Phasma was essentially useless.  

As were the Porgs.  

As was Maz’ “Spock-Skype” cameo (seriously; who holo-calls in the middle of a pitched battle?!?).

* The 21st century slang kind of popped me out a bit as well; one of the interesting things about my wife and I rewatching “Empire” and “SW77” recently was a near-total absence of any dialogue that conspicuously dated the movies; only some of the hairstyles and mutton chops.  Beyond that?  Those movies could’ve been made today (albeit with more CGI eye-candy, but the dialogue is timeless).

And Poe’s phone call gag to Hux reeked of Marvel movie; it sounded like dialogue stolen from the lips of Bruce Banner or Tony Stark.   

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45 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

And Poe’s phone call gag to Hux reeked of Marvel movie; it sounded like dialogue stolen from the lips of Bruce Banner or Tony Stark.   

They were....ahem....phoning it in. :)

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11 hours ago, prometheus59650 said:

Vie is contaminating you.

I demand that this be stopped. :)

aSw3few.gif

I was at a Christmas party last night, and the guests were almost completely divided by those who’d seen “The Last Jedi” and those who hadn’t.  It was a weird kind of movie-imposed segregation; if a non-viewer passed by, the rest of us would suddenly steer our conversation towards non-spoilerish talk.  It was verbal gymnastics...:laugh:

But the overriding consensus was that "The Last Jedi" was a good, solid though somewhat flawed entry in Star Wars canon.  

Most thought it was better than “The Force Awakens” (I was one of the few holdouts on that one; as I thought TFA was a tighter movie with more surefooted editing and direction) and most agreed that “Rogue One” was better (on that score, I agreed).

Everyone agreed that it was better than the prequels and even “Return of the Jedi.” 

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39 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Everyone agreed that it was better than the prequels and even “Return of the Jedi.” 

The Ewoks completely crash that movie for me.

I don't hate it, but...I just can't with the Ewoks.

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14 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

The Ewoks completely crash that movie for me.

I don't hate it, but...I just can't with the Ewoks.

They sunk it for me as well.   If it had been the Wookiee home planet (as originally conceived)?   Well...

6zbkNkb.gif

I could believe a planet of giant, unarmed sasquatches kicking the living s#!t out of the Empire’s finest. 

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25 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

They sunk it for me as well.   If it had been the Wookiee home planet (as originally conceived)?   Well...

6zbkNkb.gif

I could believe a planet of giant, unarmed sasquatches kicking the living s#!t out of the Empire’s finest. 

No question.

 

I'm sure the Death Star was probably literally built to avoid a land war on Kashyyyk. :)  Because I'm not sure Palpy could clone troops fast enough to keep up with the pile of bodies a Wookie infantry would pile up.  

 

In other news:

Star Wars opens to a modest $450M global. :)

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1 hour ago, prometheus59650 said:

No question.

 

I'm sure the Death Star was probably literally built to avoid a land war on Kashyyyk. :)  Because I'm not sure Palpy could clone troops fast enough to keep up with the pile of bodies a Wookie infantry would pile up.  

 

In other news:

Star Wars opens to a modest $450M global. :)

Only $450 million...how will all of those Disney executives feed their children this Christmas? :P

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22 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Only $450 million...how will all of those Disney executives feed their children this Christmas? :P

On Diamond-bejeweled plates with solid gold utensils? :)

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41 minutes ago, Mike Thompson said:

Never seen Star Wars, only bits.

You should gve it a try sometime.  It’s a great modern mythology. 

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2 hours ago, Mike Thompson said:

Never seen Star Wars, only bits.

Honestly, if you do try them out and start with the prequels, don't let those discourage you from trying 4-6.

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Ok …. Time for a SPOILER filled review from a whiny OT fan boy. Please do not read below if you want to read spoilers. My rant needs to bring up spoilers. In fact – I recommend not reading this thread until you have seen the movie.

How did I feel in spoiler free gif?

al-pacino-devils-advocate-rage.gif

 

……………………

…………

…..

.

 

Ok here we go on the things I liked:

 

It’s a Star Wars movie. A new one.

Seeing Mark Hamil playing Luke Skywalker again is an amazing thing. I am saddened the man has not been in more movies since Star Wars. I know of his fame doing the voice over of the Joker, but … that isn’t really the next De Niro is it? He was absolutely wonderful in terms of acting. He had this nice mixture of Ben Kenobi’s wit and Yoda’s sarcasm. Of course – he brought a uniqueness to it as well. Brilliantly done and he had some bad-ass moments. The ending battle where Luke dusted off his shoulder at the Imperial fire power was this fan boy’s dream. When he saw the twin suns of Tatooine as he was (spoiler) – I found that so moving. Hamil was absolutely on point.

Seeing Carrie Fisher playing Leia Solo again is amazing too. Her acting is a lot better in this movie versus the slight awkwardness of The Force Awakens. I think she was in full form. I know a lot of people disliked the “space scene” but I personally loved it. It showed Leia could use the Force (even if it’s a limited capacity), but I’ll take what I can get. Her scene with Luke at the ending literally made my nostalgia sing. Her dialogue even echoes what she and Han said in ESB. “I’m sorry.” – Luke “I know.” – Leia

I know I am alone on this, but I like Kylo Ren. I think he has the potential for a great arc and the scene in the “throne room” or whatever was amazing. Him and Rey fighting against the Praetorian Guard was insanely fun to watch. Him killing Snoke was so shocking and unexpected. I still think he is an interesting character – even though he killed Han Solo (my childhood hero).

Rey was a bit better in this movie. I don’t think she was terrible in the first one, but didn’t really blow me away. In this one – I was more interested in her plot line.

The new ships were certainly cool, but their limitations and the “chase” really made no sense at all.

The new tech rebel – Rose – had some good moments and was a decent actress. She took up too much time, though. It would be like if ESB focused more on Lando’s adventure with Han tagging along.

The cameo from (I warned you about spoilers didn’t I?) Yoda was great. People whined that he looked terrible, but I think he looked amazing. He looked like he did in the OT. Not that little impish troll creature from the PT.

Lastly but not leastly – the sacrifice by the admiral (Laura Dern’s character) when she rammed the ship using hyperspeed. I have a love/hate relationship with this. On the one hand – we sci fi fans have always wondered why that is not utilized better in battles. How many times have we asked, “Why doesn’t Starfleet use a runabout to ram a Borg cube at warp speed?” haha. The thing I dislike is …. Now that it is established this can be done? Why wasn’t this done all the time?

The ending was extremely bittersweet. On the one hand – it was punctuated with breathtaking moments …. On the other …. Ok let’s get to the long list of what I hated.

Things I disliked:

 

Practically the entire plot line. People said that this didn’t copy ESB like TFA copied ANH. Yes it did – an imperial fleet is chasing a ship (The empire chasing the Falcon). The head of the empire is seeking out Luke Skywalker (Palpatine/Vader searching for Luke). Training on an alien world with an old Jedi hermit (Dagobah). A planet that is neutral yet involved in the greater galactic conflict (Bespin/casino planet). Giant Imperial walkers on a planet (Hoth). A cool lightsaber battle at the end. This movie was what ESB would like if it was a prequel trilogy movie.

Dropped plot lines

-          -Kylo Ren’s obsession with being like Darth Vader. Really isn’t brought up at all in this. He doesn’t wear the mask after Snoke embarrassed him about it. Now that we see Force Ghosts can still come back – why hasn’t Anakin appeared to try and sway Kylo from the dark side? Clearly … if there is anyone he would listen to …

-          -Knight’s of Ren?

-          -The death of Han Solo. No funeral. No moments to honor him. No real reactions from any of the characters. They just gloss over it like he was some no named red shirt.

-          -Rey’s parentage. I get that people think Kylo is lying to her, but even Maz told Rey the people she was waiting for was never coming back. Which kind of reinforces what Kylo told her. But why make a big deal about her “mysterious” parents if you’re just going to reveal they’re two drunks that sold their own daughter for a bottle?

-          -Rey’s visions. Why did she have visions from touching the lightsaber? She even saw the Knights of Ren kill some person. Who was that? Why did she have visions of Bespin? Of her childhood?

         -What happened to the Republic since their capital was destroyed?

-          -Why did Snoke turn Kylo Ren and why did he recreate the Empire?

-          -Where did Finn come from and how was he kidnapped by the First Order?

Maz’s cameo – a long-distance call… Why? Couldn’t she have been the slicer/hacker to help them? What about Lando? (supposedly they couldn’t “find” a way to put him in the movie). Really? They needed someone that can hack into Imperial systems – a perfect excuse to bring back Lando. Instead we got …

DJ – the character played by Benecio Del Toro. What was the point of him again? DJ backstabs them … for …. money? That he probably would have gotten from the Resistance.  A brilliant actor like Del Toro hired for this crappy role?

I hated the entire casino planet sequence. Everything about the casino planet was insanely stupid. It literally felt like something out of the PT. In theory – I like the idea of a planet of bourgeois 1%ers that play both sides for their own profits. But the execution was garbage. It dragged the movie and too much time was spent on this stupid planet.

Connected to the planet rant – it gave Rose a good back story but she is a character introduced late in the game. Why waste time on her? They should have gone to Finn’s world to discover how he got kidnapped. I would’ve rather see Finn destroy the factory where children were being brainwashed for the First Order instead of seeing them destroy some horse races.

The salt planet – what was the point of that again? While I appreciated they didn’t copy the Hoth battle – that whole sequence seemed like a waste of time. A mini - Death Star laser can be dragged around? What was the point of this again?

Snoke dying … while I was genuinely happy to be surprised by a movie (it doesn’t happen often) – what was the point of this discount Emperor Palpatine again?

So General Hux is now pure comedic relief? Imagine if Darth Vader force pushed Tarkin into a wall in a comedic style ...

Ok let’s talk about the biggest thing –

 

The absolute disrespect to the OT characters. Chewie/R2/Threepio are literally just window dressing now.

Luke trying to kill Ben Solo because he had visions that he would be evil? Wasn’t this the man that told Yoda/Obi-Wan that if you can sense a spark of good – then there is hope to bring them back? Suddenly – he toys with murdering people in his sleep?

Luke Skywalker … his entire arc in the OT is literally thrown into the trash. We assume he ran away to this planet to find some knowledge. From the trailer “It’s time …. for the Jedi to end.” It seems like he found some balance to the Force. Maybe become a grey Jedi? Nope. He’s just a bitter hermit that ran away due to failing “Ben”. That’s it. Luke – the great “hope” to “return the Jedi” … fails at returning the Jedi and then hides from the galaxy. So everything he does in the OT is ultimately pointless.

I find this so much more egregious than any retcon in Star Trek. It literally renders the OT to be some stupid stop gap between the PT and ST. When Luke tells Kylo “I’m not the last Jedi.” And it cuts to Rey? I felt livid. So essentially – Rey is stealing Luke’s entire arc from the OT? So she is now gonna be the one to restore the Jedi Order?

Then just like that – Luke dies. That’s it. That’s his entire life. His entire life is summed up by absolute failure in the end. I honestly feel gutted by that. Han continued to be a criminal. Leia continued to be some underground rebel. Luke is the only Jedi left.

That is the sum of these three legends thanks to the ST. I cannot emphasize how much I hated this. This is worse than Jar Jar Binks. You know why? Because Jar Jar had literally no impact on Luke/Leia/Han.

Was there any reason they didn’t want to simply jump 100 years in the future? So they couldn’t touch the legacy of those three? This movie did more damage to these characters than 100 PT movies.

I hated this movie and I hated how this is how we say good-bye to Luke. With Carrie Fisher passing on – this is also how we say bye to Leia.

I remember walking out of the theater in silence because I was trying to absorb how much these iconic characters were just … pissed on ... So that the new bunch have a story.

Clayne-Crawford-Im-not-angry-Im-upset-.g

Edited by The Founder

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2 hours ago, The Founder said:

How did I feel in spoiler free gif?

al-pacino-devils-advocate-rage.gif

 

So.... tell us how you really feel.  :laugh:

 

Founder?  As usual that was a spot-on and deep analysis.  I may have disagreed with a couple things (the character of Rose, for example), but on the whole I find myself agreeing with you a HELL of a lot more than my relatively trivial disagreements.

While I wouldn’t say I disliked the movie (nor did I sink in my chair, riddled in shame and self-loathing, as I did through the prequels), I did have some really serious issues with TLJ that kept me at arm’s length from embracing it as I certainly wanted to.    

And yes, I very much agreed with you on the treatment of Chewie, R2 and even C3PO (though he did have more screen time, at least); they were little more than props.

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[SPOILERS and discussion thereof]

 

I think Rian Johnson played by one rule when he wrote and directed The Last Jedi: “Subvert expectations.” 

That he did. There’s little story time given over to mourning or even celebrating the past, or people’s places in legend. Even when Yoda turns up, he’s there to push Luke to the edge and encourage him to burn the past and move forward - which Luke does. Like the Founder, I did experience some annoyance that Luke’s legacy seemed a bit shambolic. This guy, who saw a spark of light in Darth Vader - Darth Vader! - seemed a little too ready to condemn one of his own students. On the other hand, that’s classic Luke, rushing in before he’s thought through a situation entirely, and the script does cover this indecision and the agony he went through - from three different perspectives. It’s not treated lightly. Plus, one of his best friends was Han Solo, and Luke doing before thinking is, well what he and his buddies do best. I admit, I felt some disappointment with how Luke had ended up, and found the island sequences quite frustrating. Possibly, now I know how this sequence plays out, it’ll feel better on a second viewing, but that was definitely one of the problems I had with the story, too. 

On the other hand, this plot is partially about redemption (or lack of it) and how life choices aren’t always as straightforward as they can later seem. Like Empire, the point of it is that it’s a moral victory, a spiritual one, not actual. It dares to be metaphorical, and even if I don’t like some of the plot beats, I think that’s admirable, and a layer of depth The Force Awakens didn’t really have. For sure, this is a more difficult film. While there’s a lot I enjoyed, there’s bits I really don’t like - but I think, with time, even those may begin to make some sense.  

I’d rather have Star Wars that’s a bit difficult, that takes some time to digest, over a straight nostalgia-fest, which to an extent are the philosophies that drove both TFA and Rogue One. My first impression was that, the Canto Bight sequence aside, TLJ is a hell of a lot more coherent of a film than TFA. I don’t think TLJ renders the OT moot - the Rebels stopped two Death Stars, saved billions of lives. What this new trilogy says (which seems timely and relevant) is you have to remember not to be complacent about peace, something Leia always clearly knew. You have to keep watching the fascists, otherwise they’ll rise again. 

Johnson follows the mantra, “Don’t give them what they want. Give them something they didn’t know they wanted.” 

In the real world, now that Star Wars isn’t an independently owned entity, we can fully expect Disney to play the safe path. They didn’t here; not entirely. Despite the multiple changes in directors on various films, seems like they really allowed Johnson to follow his muse and mess with audience expectations. Now they’ve entrusted him to expand the SW Universe beyond the Skywalker saga. Only other guy who has been allowed that freedom is Dave Filoni on Rebels, which has paid dramatic dividends. 

But Chewie and Artoo wuz robbed. 

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