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Maltz

Star Trek: Discovery occurs in an alternate universe

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Despite what the writers have said, there simply is no way DSC occurs in the same universe as TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT. Things like Starfleet uniforms and tech, as well as the radical redesign of the Klingons and their ships, make it an impossibility. The only way it can make sense is if it takes place in an alternate universe that is distinct from both the Prime and Kelvin realities.

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TNG, DS9 and VOY already don't occur in the same universe as TOS. They contradict TOS repeatedly.

As to the uniforms and such? Not proof in and of itself. You can chalk those up to aesthetic choices completely necessary in 2017.

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There's no reconciling the show's depiction of Klingons with other iterations though, either in terms of their physical appearance or the look of their vessels.

10 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

TNG, DS9 and VOY already don't occur in the same universe as TOS. They contradict TOS repeatedly.

As to the uniforms and such? Not proof in and of itself. You can chalk those up to aesthetic choices completely necessary in 2017.

And the in-narrative reason?

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36 minutes ago, Maltz said:

There's no reconciling the show's depiction of Klingons with other iterations though, either in terms of their physical appearance or the look of their vessels.

And the in-narrative reason?

There doesn't need to be one when the lion's share of your viewership and the viewership you'd like to reach literally laugh out loud at the original TOS aesthetic.

I've witnessed it. Vie has witnessed it.

They laugh. 

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41 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

There doesn't need to be one when the lion's share of your viewership and the viewership you'd like to reach literally laugh out loud at the original TOS aesthetic.

I've witnessed it. Vie has witnessed it.

They laugh. 

What about the Klingons? Neither their physical appearance or the appearance of their ships needed to be changed.

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Maybe it is set in the post First Contact/Enterprise universe. Perhaps the Enterprise E crew going back in time led to the first warp 5 ship being called Enterprise. Then perhaps in this universe the technology advanced at a different rate than in the original universe, and perhaps the Klingon augment virus was cured in this universe. Perhaps this universe's cure for the virus made the Klingons look how they did millions of years ago.

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37 minutes ago, Maltz said:

What about the Klingons? Neither their physical appearance or the appearance of their ships needed to be changed.

Shrug.

Roddenberry never explained the transition from smooth to ridge between TOS and TMP in the narrative. That really didn't need to be changed either, to be honest. Did it, never explained it, he had the wheel of the franchise, was his call to make, made it.

Same as today. 

17 minutes ago, Dillkid said:

Maybe it is set in the post First Contact/Enterprise universe. Perhaps the Enterprise E crew going back in time led to the first warp 5 ship being called Enterprise. Then perhaps in this universe the technology advanced at a different rate than in the original universe, and perhaps the Klingon augment virus was cured in this universe. Perhaps this universe's cure for the virus made the Klingons look how they did millions of years ago.

As good an explanation as any.

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10 hours ago, Maltz said:

And the in-narrative reason?

There isn’t one.  Just as there wasn’t one when TMP premiered in 1979.  They didn’t reconcile the Klingon’s TMP look with TOS' version for 26 years (!).  I just chalk it up to a different breed of Klingons; at least until there is (or isn’t?) an in-universe explanation. 

8 hours ago, prometheus59650 said:

Shrug.

Roddenberry never explained the transition from smooth to ridge between TOS and TMP in the narrative. That really didn't need to be changed either, to be honest. Did it, never explained it, he had the wheel of the franchise, was his call to make, made it.

Same as today. 

^ Or... I could’ve just waited for Prometheus to word it more succinctly than I could. :giggle:

9 hours ago, Dillkid said:

Maybe it is set in the post First Contact/Enterprise universe. Perhaps the Enterprise E crew going back in time led to the first warp 5 ship being called Enterprise. Then perhaps in this universe the technology advanced at a different rate than in the original universe, and perhaps the Klingon augment virus was cured in this universe. Perhaps this universe's cure for the virus made the Klingons look how they did millions of years ago.

That’s kind of my working theory as well.   IMO, everything in ENT is an alternate, post-"First Contact" timeline that only later on begins to merge in symmetry with TOS’ universe (against the laws of entropy granted; but hey... it’s entertainment). 

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The first Discovery novel made an effort to explain why the uniforms and tech in the show are different to those in TOS "The Cage." They should do something similar with the Klingons.

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5 hours ago, Maltz said:

The first Discovery novel made an effort to explain why the uniforms and tech in the show are different to those in TOS "The Cage." They should do something similar with the Klingons.

Well, to be honest, almost any explanation for their sudden, completely alien new appearance will be inadequate to some (or most?) fans.  Even ENT's "Divergence" didn't really explain how older Klingons like Kor, Kang and Koloth were 'augment-smooth' in the 23rd century and back to 'Rocky road' in the 24th.

While I appreciated "Desperate Hours" ' attempt to explain the Constitution class crews having a more 'relaxed' uniform, it doesn't explain the tabulating computers and other anachronistic technology of that class; nor does it explain how the Shenzhou (a much older ship, according to DH), would look state of the art even in Jean-Luc Picard's time.

Sometimes you just have to bite the phaser and admit that some changes are simply because Star Trek is no longer constrained by the limited production values of 1960s television. 

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Okay.  So I lurk here but never post.  Until now.  I have a theory.

Bryan Fuller told us that there was something in Star Trek history that he always wondered about.  We have assumed it was the Klingon war.  What if we were wrong?  We also know that TMP influenced the creators in their choice of aesthetics, but maybe TMP was more influential than we thought.  We have criticized the inconsistencies between Discovery and TOS and surmised that Discovery takes place in an alternate universe like the J.J. Abrams movies.  Many here have said that the ship may leap into "our" prime universe.  The production team has countered by telling us to have faith and that these inconsistencies will be resolved in season 2.

Here is what I think:  Discovery does indeed exist in an alternate timeline, and it will leap into our prime timeline.  But we were wrong about the Klingon war being the event in which Bryan Fuller was interested.  When TMP was released, fans questioned how the Enterprise could make such technological progress in only two and a half years.  Of course, we know that Roddenberry was working with a movie budget instead of a television budget and that ILM paved the way with Star Wars.  But what is Fuller is giving us an in-universe explanation?  Discovery ends up on the hands of "our" Federation or it is scanned as in the J.J. movie or it willingly gives technology to our Federation.  It does not matter how they do it.  The Federation takes twelve years to reverse engineer whatever incomplete technology its gets.  Thus, we get the TMP great leap forward.

Thoughts anyone?

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Is the TMP E a great technical leap though? Is it super, radically technologically superior to the TOS E?

But that IS an interesting theory that I hadn't considered before.

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The TOS Enterprise was 17-22 years old when she was refitted for TMP, going through three or four 5 year missions (one with April, one or two with Pike, one with Kirk) and supposedly a two year shakedown cruise with April right after launching. I'd think that what we see in TMP had been on the drawing board for some time. 

As to the Klingons; I'm inclined to believe that at some point between year 3 of TOS and maybe a year before TMP a cure for the virus was found. I wish Continues had addressed it to some degree to maybe bridge the gap. As to the Klingons on Discovery; they apparently have been secluded enough the disease didn't get to them (same as the Klingons we see in Into Darkness). I would assume that there were always a 5-10% of the population that didn't get the virus and to keep it that way they didn't go far from home.

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I've been pondering it over a bit, and my theory for the mid season finale ending, was that they may not have been in the Prime Universe, but after that leap, they may be now, so Selek and I may be on similar pages on this one.  I've been so busy lately that I haven't much chance to pop on. 

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3 hours ago, kenman said:

I've been pondering it over a bit, and my theory for the mid season finale ending, was that they may not have been in the Prime Universe, but after that leap, they may be now, so Selek and I may be on similar pages on this one.  I've been so busy lately that I haven't much chance to pop on. 

Hope the new addition to the family is doing well.  ;)

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On 11/30/2017 at 8:53 AM, Maltz said:

Despite what the writers have said, there simply is no way DSC occurs in the same universe as TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT. Things like Starfleet uniforms and tech, as well as the radical redesign of the Klingons and their ships, make it an impossibility. The only way it can make sense is if it takes place in an alternate universe that is distinct from both the Prime and Kelvin realities.

I honestly wish that were the case.

This show barely connects in any way whatsoever to any of the other Treks, but I think this is meant to be a "just pretend..." situation. Just like with the Trill in DS9 kind of thing.

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10 hours ago, The Founder said:

I honestly wish that were the case.

This show barely connects in any way whatsoever to any of the other Treks, but I think this is meant to be a "just pretend..." situation. Just like with the Trill in DS9 kind of thing.

There was a lot of that with ENT as well.  

Let’s face it; there’s bound to be a lot of ‘just pretend' with every new iteration of a 51 year old television series trying to reinvent itself time and again...

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22 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

There was a lot of that with ENT as well.  

Let’s face it; there’s bound to be a lot of ‘just pretend' with every new iteration of a 51 year old television series trying to reinvent itself time and again...

Still, we wouldn't be having this "just pretend" issue if the ones in charge of the franchise finally realized that pre-TOS or TOS just might NOT be the ideal time frame and allowed for a show that's set in the future of the future instead of the past that was largely covered by a show made in the 60s.  I - and many, many others - would have a far easier time looking at Discovery from an "okay this is way after Nemesis and they're at war with the Klingons and the captains are kinda shady these days due to war exposure, got it" perspective.

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31 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

Still, we wouldn't be having this "just pretend" issue if the ones in charge of the franchise finally realized that pre-TOS or TOS just might NOT be the ideal time frame and allowed for a show that's set in the future of the future instead of the past that was largely covered by a show made in the 60s.  I - and many, many others - would have a far easier time looking at Discovery from an "okay this is way after Nemesis and they're at war with the Klingons and the captains are kinda shady these days due to war exposure, got it" perspective.

Yep there wouldn't be a problem if they had have done that, but they insisted once again to set it around TOS.

On 17/12/2017 at 3:06 AM, Selek said:

Okay.  So I lurk here but never post.  Until now.  I have a theory.

Bryan Fuller told us that there was something in Star Trek history that he always wondered about.  We have assumed it was the Klingon war.  What if we were wrong?  We also know that TMP influenced the creators in their choice of aesthetics, but maybe TMP was more influential than we thought.  We have criticized the inconsistencies between Discovery and TOS and surmised that Discovery takes place in an alternate universe like the J.J. Abrams movies.  Many here have said that the ship may leap into "our" prime universe.  The production team has countered by telling us to have faith and that these inconsistencies will be resolved in season 2.

Here is what I think:  Discovery does indeed exist in an alternate timeline, and it will leap into our prime timeline.  But we were wrong about the Klingon war being the event in which Bryan Fuller was interested.  When TMP was released, fans questioned how the Enterprise could make such technological progress in only two and a half years.  Of course, we know that Roddenberry was working with a movie budget instead of a television budget and that ILM paved the way with Star Wars.  But what is Fuller is giving us an in-universe explanation?  Discovery ends up on the hands of "our" Federation or it is scanned as in the J.J. movie or it willingly gives technology to our Federation.  It does not matter how they do it.  The Federation takes twelve years to reverse engineer whatever incomplete technology its gets.  Thus, we get the TMP great leap forward.

Thoughts anyone?

I like this idea, but when they enter the prime universe do they have to all of a sudden change their uniforms, hair styles etc?

Edited by Dillkid

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2 hours ago, Mr.Picard said:

Still, we wouldn't be having this "just pretend" issue if the ones in charge of the franchise finally realized that pre-TOS or TOS just might NOT be the ideal time frame and allowed for a show that's set in the future of the future instead of the past that was largely covered by a show made in the 60s.  I - and many, many others - would have a far easier time looking at Discovery from an "okay this is way after Nemesis and they're at war with the Klingons and the captains are kinda shady these days due to war exposure, got it" perspective.

^
No argument there.

I sincerely wish they’d set the show post-VGR/NEM, but oh well...

2 hours ago, Mr.Picard said:

Here is what I think:  Discovery does indeed exist in an alternate timeline, and it will leap into our prime timeline.  But we were wrong about the Klingon war being the event in which Bryan Fuller was interested.  When TMP was released, fans questioned how the Enterprise could make such technological progress in only two and a half years.  Of course, we know that Roddenberry was working with a movie budget instead of a television budget and that ILM paved the way with Star Wars.  But what is Fuller is giving us an in-universe explanation?  Discovery ends up on the hands of "our" Federation or it is scanned as in the J.J. movie or it willingly gives technology to our Federation.  It does not matter how they do it.  The Federation takes twelve years to reverse engineer whatever incomplete technology its gets.  Thus, we get the TMP great leap forward.

Thoughts anyone?

Hmmm... this could work.

It would explain that little jump in technology in ST’s prime timeline quite elegantly.   And since Discovery won’t (or can’t?) use its spore drive anymore, that could explain why its never referred to again in ST’s prime timeline.   

And by the way, welcome aboard Selek.  

Nice to see a fellow TAS fan (my avatar is from the same episode as yours!).  Post often and prosper. :)

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46 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

They just need to say, "Forget what we said before, this is a new universe."

They're only just going to make an ever bigger mess.

If our new member Selek’s theory is true, we may get that but with a twist.

It began in an alternate reality that winds up in the prime universe; the more I think about that theory, the more I like it...:thumbup:

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6 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

If our new member Selek’s theory is true, we may get that but with a twist.

It began in an alternate reality that winds up in the prime universe; the more I think about that theory, the more I like it...:thumbup:

If true, it'd actually be pretty clever.

Hopefully, we'll find out in a couple of weeks.

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Perhaps the Spore Drive becomes classified so that it's never created again. Which would explain why Voyager didn't make one to get home I guess.

Edited by Dillkid

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