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Sehlat Vie

Interesting article from Inverse: Discovery’s timeline was ALWAYS a parallel universe...

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12 hours ago, prometheus59650 said:

At this point they should just write what they want to write (prequel, post-Voyager, the gap between Captain Sulu and Picard, etc.) use whatever works for them and leave the reconciliation issues to the fanbase that will never be satisfied anyway.

I'd have been satisfied if they started this with "This is its own continuity. Thus we will do whatever we want. Get over it" OR "This follows the Abrams time line. Get over it." The issue (for me) has always been their insistence that this is the prime time line.

8 hours ago, doctor_odd said:

But it's working just fine?

It doesn't appear to be working fine if fans are still trying to justify the presence of DSC in the prime time line. If they're at the "Bleep it. Let's just say this is another universe." then it is not working.

I mean - that isn't an attack on the story or graphics or cast. All of that may be working out very well. Just ... not its presence in the Trek universe.

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11 hours ago, The Founder said:

It doesn't appear to be working fine if fans are still trying to justify the presence of DSC in the prime time line. If they're at the "Bleep it. Let's just say this is another universe." then it is not working.

I mean - that isn't an attack on the story or graphics or cast. All of that may be working out very well. Just ... not its presence in the Trek universe.

This. There are fans who are willing to make that kind of leap of faith, who are willing to treat the show as its own kind of show set in its own universe, but there is a HUGE part of the fandom that DOES like the show but finds it increcibly difficult to reconcile it with the existing canon and wishes the writers had just said it's set in a different universe or way after Voyager. I really don't know if the whole "we are going to make this show fit to TOS" approach is going to be applauded by those fans. ENT had it slightly better since it was set WAY before TOS, but this show is supposed to be set what, ten years before TOS? I mean, really... everything about this could have been avoided if they had just said "folks this is a different universe, we'll explain why". I'm still at a loss as to why they didn't do that. I get it that CBS doesn't own the rights to the Kelvin universe, but if there's one thing Trek has always been good at, it's setting up new interesting universes to explore.

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13 hours ago, The Founder said:

I'd have been satisfied if they started this with "This is its own continuity. Thus we will do whatever we want. Get over it" OR "This follows the Abrams time line. Get over it." The issue (for me) has always been their insistence that this is the prime time line.

It doesn't appear to be working fine if fans are still trying to justify the presence of DSC in the prime time line. If they're at the "Bleep it. Let's just say this is another universe." then it is not working.

I mean - that isn't an attack on the story or graphics or cast. All of that may be working out very well. Just ... not its presence in the Trek universe.

Yes, this. And

1 hour ago, Mr.Picard said:

This. There are fans who are willing to make that kind of leap of faith, who are willing to treat the show as its own kind of show set in its own universe, but there is a HUGE part of the fandom that DOES like the show but finds it increcibly difficult to reconcile it with the existing canon and wishes the writers had just said it's set in a different universe or way after Voyager. I really don't know if the whole "we are going to make this show fit to TOS" approach is going to be applauded by those fans. ENT had it slightly better since it was set WAY before TOS, but this show is supposed to be set what, ten years before TOS? I mean, really... everything about this could have been avoided if they had just said "folks this is a different universe, we'll explain why". I'm still at a loss as to why they didn't do that. I get it that CBS doesn't own the rights to the Kelvin universe, but if there's one thing Trek has always been good at, it's setting up new interesting universes to explore.

This. 

I like the show. I want to like it even more. I don’t want to be distracted by continuity issues, but I’m a fanboy, so a part of me always will be. If there’s a distraction to the clarity of stories being told - one burdened willingly by the showrunners - I can’t get my head around that. That’s why so many people are asking, “Why?” It seems fair enough. 

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On 11/23/2017 at 8:02 AM, The Founder said:

ENT did a much more phenomenal job at reconciling with TOS than DSC has so far.

I would agree that it did much later on in its fourth season.  But in those early years (temporal cold war, Xindi, the Expanse, etc)?  Not so much...

On 11/23/2017 at 8:02 AM, The Founder said:

Hopping to the "It's an alternate time line...." is just an admission that this doesn't work with DSC. Again, the reason this is even an issue is before the show started we got a lot of "Don't worry. We'll explain how this all connects. Just give us a chance!" And now that a chance was given, it didn't really mesh well, the idea is to just give in to an alternate time line?

Or... it could just be an admission that the show doesn’t work so well in context to TOS; but in and of itself, it has potential.  And in all honesty, any and all pre-TOS series are and will be reinterpretations.   Even ENT’s 4th season didn’t really align with TOS; and it still looks way too more modern than the ‘future’ of Captain Kirk’s 23rd century.   To me, I just reconcile that it’s never going to perfectly line up (unless of course, it’s a slavishly and lovingly reproduced fan film series, like the brilliant ST Continues).

On 11/23/2017 at 8:02 AM, The Founder said:

Can we just never have Trek prequels in the "prime" time line anymore? Apparently, no one outside of fan films, can make that work.

^
VERY MUCH THIS.  

219.gif

Oh, how I wish they’d simply made DSC a post-VGR sequel.  It would’ve unburdened them from this tied, knotted mess of continuity entanglement. 

On 11/23/2017 at 8:11 AM, prometheus59650 said:

At this point they should just write what they want to write (prequel, post-Voyager, the gap between Captain Sulu and Picard, etc.) use whatever works for them and leave the reconciliation issues to the fanbase that will never be satisfied anyway.

Kinda yeah.

Or just admit that it’s a new universe instead of frantically promising that it’ll align with TOS.   That approach certainly worked well enough for ST09...

On 11/23/2017 at 11:30 AM, doctor_odd said:

But it's working just fine?

Financially yes, and I’m certainly enjoying the series well enough on its own merits.    I’ll admit, I’m not as feverishly excited for it as I was before it premiered because it has issues.  For me, those issues are less about continuity and more of a few specific character nitpicks and likability, but yes, it IS working financially; CBS-AA has record new subscribers and it’s got a 2nd season in the bag.

I would advise CBS not to get overconfident however; the show has some flaws that need to be ironed out, and continued success is NOT a foregone conclusion. 

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4 hours ago, Mr.Picard said:

everything about this could have been avoided if they had just said "folks this is a different universe, we'll explain why". I'm still at a loss as to why they didn't do that. I get it that CBS doesn't own the rights to the Kelvin universe, but if there's one thing Trek has always been good at, it's setting up new interesting universes to explore.

"Everything that can happen does happen somewhere." That's really all they ever had to say. It could've been laid out in a two-minute prologue. That way, they could tale April, Pike, and pretty literally anything else they wanted without having to be tied to everything else...or anything else.

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1 minute ago, prometheus59650 said:

"Everything that can happen does happen somewhere." That's really all they ever had to say. It could've been laid out in a two-minute prologue. That way, they could tale April, Pike, and pretty literally anything else they wanted without having to be tied to everything else...or anything else.

^
That simple bit fixes everything and makes the whole of ST a true multiverse. 

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3 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

^
That simple bit fixes everything and makes the whole of ST a true multiverse. 

I just don't understand why they've willingly, and almost proudly, stepped into a minefield.

 

9 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

For me, those issues are less about continuity and more of a few specific character nitpicks and likability,

This.

My biggest problem is that, while I don't loathe her, I don't really like the person they're trying to revolve the show around. 

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On 11/24/2017 at 9:58 AM, Mr.Picard said:

This. There are fans who are willing to make that kind of leap of faith, who are willing to treat the show as its own kind of show set in its own universe, but there is a HUGE part of the fandom that DOES like the show but finds it increcibly difficult to reconcile it with the existing canon and wishes the writers had just said it's set in a different universe or way after Voyager. I really don't know if the whole "we are going to make this show fit to TOS" approach is going to be applauded by those fans. ENT had it slightly better since it was set WAY before TOS, but this show is supposed to be set what, ten years before TOS? I mean, really... everything about this could have been avoided if they had just said "folks this is a different universe, we'll explain why". I'm still at a loss as to why they didn't do that. I get it that CBS doesn't own the rights to the Kelvin universe, but if there's one thing Trek has always been good at, it's setting up new interesting universes to explore.

Exactly. I really don't get why they are so uptight in trying to keep this in the same time line/universe/whatever. Hell - at this point - I'd be all for them saying they are rebooting the franchise and the originals are no longer canon at this point. I'll always have my DVDs.

They're just determined to lure the old school fans like me into this by constantly reassuring me this all connects.

On 11/24/2017 at 11:26 AM, Robin Bland said:

I don’t want to be distracted by continuity issues, but I’m a fanboy, so a part of me always will be.

That's pretty much where I am at. I hate to sound like one of those fans but to me Star Trek isn't the Twilight Zone. It isn't Law and Order. It isn't an episode of Saved by the Bell.

This is all meant to connect. Yes, I know. The other shows had a ton of discontinuities. That wasn't a result of them declaring the shows aren't connected. That is a result of decades of television and movies changing hands with writers and directors. Nothing more.

I get that to some people Star Trek is more than just flipping the right switches. It's about themes and ideas. Great. Lovely. But this isn't a zero sum game. The two are not mutually exclusive. You can have continuity (with some bending here and there) PLUS great ideas that push boundaries and makes viewers think.

On 11/24/2017 at 2:03 PM, Sehlat Vie said:

I would agree that it did much later on in its fourth season.  But in those early years (temporal cold war, Xindi, the Expanse, etc)?  Not so much...

I think it fit from the beginning actually. They just over used/abused the whole "This is Starfleet. Not the Federation." excuse. In other words, "Did we say there were only 5 Enterprises? We meant during the Federation's run." kind of thing. Yeah - it was a stretch but it kind of works. But I agree there were a ton of mistakes that didn't work throughout the entire run of ENT.

On 11/24/2017 at 2:03 PM, Sehlat Vie said:

Or... it could just be an admission that the show doesn’t work so well in context to TOS; but in and of itself, it has potential.  And in all honesty, any and all pre-TOS series are and will be reinterpretations.   Even ENT’s 4th season didn’t really align with TOS; and it still looks way too more modern than the ‘future’ of Captain Kirk’s 23rd century.   To me, I just reconcile that it’s never going to perfectly line up (unless of course, it’s a slavishly and lovingly reproduced fan film series, like the brilliant ST Continues).

Yeah, that's what I mean. As a show/concept - I'm sure many are enjoying it. It may even be very successful. But as a Star Trek show? Aligning with the universe we all grew up with? It doesn't.

I don't see the other shows as reinterpretations or the like. Any changes from TOS onwards can be dismissed by saying it's happening years later. This show is meant to be ten short years before TOS. It just doesn't fit at all.

I don't really mind "updating" the technology, but this doesn't even look like the same universe. If the Abrams' movies can "update" the technology but still have a TOS feel then why couldn't this show? I get that Shatner's TOS was 60s television. But I can genuinely believe that Abrams' movie is a modern spin on Shatner's TOS. This show has done nothing to make me feel this is a modern spin of The Cage era. Not at all.

 

Edited by The Founder

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59 minutes ago, The Founder said:

I don't really mind "updating" the technology, but this doesn't even look like the same universe. If the Abrams' movies can "update" the technology but still have a TOS feel then why couldn't this show?

But, to many of the detractors of the Abramsverse films it doesn't have that TOS feel at all.

It has to be exactly what they remember or nothing.

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50 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

But, to many of the detractors of the Abramsverse films it doesn't have that TOS feel at all.

It has to be exactly what they remember or nothing.

Absolutely. There are some fans that will never be pleased, but if this at least looked like Abrams' TOS - DSC would not be getting this level of push back. Nor the disbelief that this will somehow reconcile with the prime time line.

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2 minutes ago, The Founder said:

Absolutely. There are some fans that will never be pleased, but if this at least looked like Abrams' TOS - DSC would not be getting this level of push back. Nor the disbelief that this will somehow reconcile with the prime time line.

They can take a run at it, but there's no way they reconcile all the problems they've created.

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1 minute ago, prometheus59650 said:

They can take a run at it, but there's no way they reconcile all the problems they've created.

Agreed. I just don't see how this all will connect...

To be fair - it's not too late for them to say this is an alternate universe or a reboot.... So far, nothing has them "locked" in the prime time line if you think about it.

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Dillkid   

All I have to say is, yes they should have set it post TNG Era. I find it hard to accept that it can be Pre TOS when the technology outdates TNG. I don't see why they are so afraid to go forward. 

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