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prometheus59650

Episode 1.9: “Into the Forest I Go” Discussion Thread

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Well, we officially saw boobs in Star trek.  Klingon boobs.  Wow.

What do we think about the theory of this show takes place in an alternative universe now? They seemed to elude to traveling between universes a lot in this episode.

Where do we think they landed?  Borg space? lol

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All the theories we've been espousing in this episode! Plus a glimpse of Klingon boobies. 'Cause this is streaming and we know you can handle it.

We're not in the Prime timeliine, are we? Or maybe, now we are. Or soon will be!

Back tomorrow. Gotta catch some ZZZZZZs. I hope I don't have dreams like Ash Tyler's.

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6 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Just threw down my thoughts/impressions of “Into the Forest I Go” for my blog tonight; gotta crash... g'night folks! 
 

https://musingsofamiddleagedgeek.blog/2017/11/12/star-trek-discovery-s1-9-into-the-forest-i-go-midseason-finale/

Nice review, Sehlat. I agree on all counts. It was easily the most coherent and entertaining episode yet, one in which you could cheer for the characters. Burnham’s vulnerability and toughness at last came together into a whole character, not a series of stated characteristics. Lorca was superb, Stamets and Culber’s moments genuinely moving, Tilly’s gauche cadet mouthslips both amusing and serving a plot function. Not much (or enough) Saru, but the moment when he shares a grateful acknowledgment with Burnham was really nice. Even the bridge crew were on fire - please give us more Owosekun, Detmer and Arium. Include them in the ensemble, because that’s what this is. Ash Tyler’s sudden breakdown was really well handled - not surprising, but dramatic in such a way that both confirms many theories aired on these threads (notably yours, Sehlat) and elsewhere on the Internet. The Manchurian Candidate theory is holding a lot of water right now, and the possible dramatic possibilities of that are looking really good, especially with L’Rell onboard. 

Nitpicks. I have to admit, I actually rewound the episode when the plan to plant the sensors on board the Ship of the Dead was outlined and said aloud, “But why didn’t you do that before, then?” I got a feeling that this episode was an attempt on the part of its writers to make sense of some shambolic overall season planning, as they brought all previous plot threads together and tried to make it all mesh. Not easy - they not only managed it (or navigated around any inconveniences), they wrote a really fine, exciting episode full of character moments, but that bit of exposition was a real “Whaaaaaat?” handwavey plot moment. Okay, you have to get them on board the Klingon vessel. 

Klingons speaking in English - those scenes were so much snappier and involving for this simple development. That it brought attention to the universal translator and Starfleet’s “desire to communicate” was a side issue, ‘cause Discovery soon blew them all to kingdom come. But anyway. Long overdue. Kol really is an incompetent buffoon, but how nice (at last!) to see the discrepancy about Klingon honor addressed. L’Rell is still the best, most interesting Klingon. 

Cornwell. She’s written in swiftly when needed for plot purposes,  and swiftly out again when no longer needed. Lingering on Cornwell’s experiences wasn’t what the episode sought to achieve, but getting a tiny scene of her relief at rescue, a moment that closed out her POW arc as she’s carried to her medical shuttle or whatever would’ve gone a long way to making the character’s appearance more satisfying. It would’ve heightened the tension between she and Lorca and would’ve really punched up the sense of drama at the end, even if the two characters hadn’t met in person. At is is, she’s mentioned and dispensed with and we focus only on Lorca. Isaacs of course carries it brilliantly, because he’s such a STAR and any scene with him in is special, but that was a really wasted opportunity. Lorca’s debrief of Stamets in the shuttle by was exactly the sort of scene I expect from Star Trek, and really nicely handled. The two arcs - Burnham’s and Tyler’s, Lorca’s and his ship’s - worked together to give a great sense of pacing and finality to those final scenes. How great to see Burnham’s concern and tenderness for Tyler; a reiteration of Culber’s for Stamets in the scenes earlier in he engineering room. Elegant thematic underpinnings all brought out by character interactions - finally the serialized format delivers. Yeah, that all feels like Star Trek. 

Where are they? Dunno, but if it’s away from the Klingon war, fine by me. If we’re boldly going now - into mirrorverses, parallel realms, far from home, something that makes a narrative sense and gives the audience an ability to square the nine episodes they’ve just seen with what Trek’s been before - and, more importantly, what Discovery wants to be - great. Take us thataway. 

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1 minute ago, Robin Bland said:

Nitpicks. I have to admit, I actually rewound the episode when the plan to plant the sensors on board the Ship of the Dead was outlined and said aloud, “But why didn’t you do that before, then?”

To me, it made the whole Pahvo plan a waste of time to pad out the story.  My single biggest nit of the hour.

3 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

Klingons speaking in English - those scenes were so much snappier and involving for this simple development. That it brought attention to the universal translator and Starfleet’s “desire to communicate” was a side issue, ‘cause Discovery soon blew them all to kingdom come. But anyway. Long overdue. Kol really is an incompetent buffoon, but how nice (at last!) to see the discrepancy about Klingon honor addressed. L’Rell is still the best, most interesting Klingon. 

Hope that was their “Hunt for Red October” Russian moment. :laugh:

It removed some of the ‘distance’ between us and them.  Normally I’m find with foreign languages and subtitles...if the language and culture are real.  Klingons are fantasy constructs.  If we can buy them being bipedal humanoids with ten fingers/toes, then we can sure as hell buy them speaking English.   

7 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

Cornwell. She’s written in swiftly when needed for plot purposes,  and swiftly out again when no longer needed.

Another huge disappointment of mine.   She’s also becoming Admiral Beverly Crusher; incompetent bordering on asinine.  Jane Brooks deserves better.  :(

9 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

Elegant thematic underpinnings all brought out by character interactions - finally the serialized format delivers. Yeah, that all feels like Star Trek. 

Very much so!  Last night saw the show coming into maturity, I think (hope?).

10 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

Where are they? Dunno, but if it’s away from the Klingon war, fine by me. If we’re boldly going now - into mirrorverses, parallel realms, far from home, something that makes a narrative sense and gives the audience an ability to square the nine episodes they’ve just seen with what Trek’s been before - and, more importantly, what Discovery wants to be - great. Take us thataway. 

Aye, aye keptin...:giggle:

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Shady Lorca is back - I'm SO glad! "Let's go home". Yeah, honey... only that YOUR home is not the home the others want to go to. :P

He made parallel universe charts by monitoring Stamets. He manipulates Stamets into doing one last jump to that Starbase he never had any intention of reaching... and then he overrides the destination... yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah. Totally not shady.

All in all... this was a great episode. FINALLY stuff happens, and lots of Shady Lorca (and also Lorca/Stamets, aaaaaaah) and yeah, this is how I like my Discovery. I really had my doubts after the last two episodes but this one made me like it again.

Oh and I'm also glad the Klingons were finally speaking English. They worked MUCH better almost immediately.

Yeah, I liked this episode.

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14 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

Shady Lorca is back - I'm SO glad! "Let's go home". Yeah, honey... only that YOUR home is not the home the others want to go to. :P

He made parallel universe charts by monitoring Stamets. He manipulates Stamets into doing one last jump to that Starbase he never had any intention of reaching... and then he overrides the destination... yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah. Totally not shady.

All in all... this was a great episode. FINALLY stuff happens, and lots of Shady Lorca (and also Lorca/Stamets, aaaaaaah) and yeah, this is how I like my Discovery. I really had my doubts after the last two episodes but this one made me like it again.

Oh and I'm also glad the Klingons were finally speaking English. They worked MUCH better almost immediately.

Yeah, I liked this episode.

Last night’s episode really upped the show’s game.

And was it me, or was there a lot more genuine warmth in Lorca, too?  Yes, he’s shady (it’s why we love him) but there was a lot of heart, too.  

And Klingons speaking English... finally!  They became immediate and more accessible with that one little difference.   And I don’t want to sound like a ‘dubbed languages’ fan; I’m not.   I always prefer subtitled foreign films when they’re speaking a real language.  Klingon is fictitious.   It’s like I replied to Robin upthread; if we can accept humanoid bipeds from another solar system with 10 fingers/toes, then we can buy them speaking English (through a translator or whatever).

 

Just hoping they’re not ‘lost in space’ for good...:giggle:

lostinspace.jpeg?w=605

 

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I'm confused. What did Lorca do? What would have he done if Stamets hadn't suggested doign one last jump?

GREAT episode though

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5 minutes ago, Garak the spy said:

I'm confused. What did Lorca do? What would have he done if Stamets hadn't suggested doign one last jump?

GREAT episode though

He quickly overrode the spore drive navigation so that it would take them to an “unknown” destination. (See screencap earlier in this thread.) 

He knew exactly how to manipulate Stamets into doing one last jump - Stamets refusing wasn’t even an option, most likely. Revealing his “I’ve kept track of your work because exploration” thing is just another manipulative statement - he knew he needed Stamets so he chose to be nice to him. There’s NO way Lorca is interested in exploration - his real plan remains a mystery for now but hey, Stamets bought his “I take care of my crew” nonsense, so Lorca really is brilliant at scheming and lying and manipulating. (People are AGAIN falling for it, “We got some genuine warmth from Lorca” - nah, we got what he wanted us to have, not what he really felt, he needed his crew to help with the jumps and whatnot, hence his oh-so-nice speech, which ultimately meant pretty much nothing to him).

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1 minute ago, Mr.Picard said:

He quickly overrode the spore drive navigation so that it would take them to an “unknown” destination. (See screencap earlier in this thread.) 

He knew exactly how to manipulate Stamets into doing one last jump - Stamets refusing wasn’t even an option, most likely. Revealing his “I’ve kept track of your work because exploration” thing is just another manipulative statement - he knew he needed Stamets so he chose to be nice to him. There’s NO way Lorca is interested in exploration - his real plan remains a mystery for now but hey, Stamets bought his “I take care of my crew” nonsense, so Lorca really is brilliant at scheming and lying and manipulating. (People are AGAIN falling for it, “We got some genuine warmth from Lorca” - nah, we got what he wanted us to have, not what he really felt, he needed his crew to help with the jumps and whatnot, hence his oh-so-nice speech, which ultimately meant pretty much nothing to him).

Aw c'mon, I was one of the people who thought we had gotten some genuine warmth from Lorca lol

Whatever happens I do hope he will stay in command of the ship. He's a great character and should remain there. But this has me very worried. What's up from here? When the crew discovers what he did, he's done for good, they'll never trust him again...

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21 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

He quickly overrode the spore drive navigation so that it would take them to an “unknown” destination. (See screencap earlier in this thread.) 

He knew exactly how to manipulate Stamets into doing one last jump - Stamets refusing wasn’t even an option, most likely. Revealing his “I’ve kept track of your work because exploration” thing is just another manipulative statement - he knew he needed Stamets so he chose to be nice to him. There’s NO way Lorca is interested in exploration - his real plan remains a mystery for now but hey, Stamets bought his “I take care of my crew” nonsense, so Lorca really is brilliant at scheming and lying and manipulating. (People are AGAIN falling for it, “We got some genuine warmth from Lorca” - nah, we got what he wanted us to have, not what he really felt, he needed his crew to help with the jumps and whatnot, hence his oh-so-nice speech, which ultimately meant pretty much nothing to him).

The thing is, I think unless we see some serious, full-on, psychotic snap where he admits they were all just pawns, I think he does care about his crew on some level. He's either the best actor in ever or there's some truth in there when he talks to Stamets and the like, just like I think he meant it when he risked a breakdown in front of Cornwell.

It's obvious though that Lorca's agenda, whatever it really is, matters way more.

 

Edited by prometheus59650

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Definitely one of the best episodes of the season so far. It was actually quite disturbing watching Stamets enduring so many jumps. Ash had a great scene where he goes into shock on the Klingon ship and another good scene where he was talking to Michael back on Discovery about his experiences. I still like the actor and the character, and I still hope the Big Theory isn't true. Michael also had good moments, like when she confronted that Klingon by herself.

Edited by Explorer3

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3 hours ago, Mr.Picard said:

He quickly overrode the spore drive navigation so that it would take them to an “unknown” destination. (See screencap earlier in this thread.) 

He knew exactly how to manipulate Stamets into doing one last jump - Stamets refusing wasn’t even an option, most likely. Revealing his “I’ve kept track of your work because exploration” thing is just another manipulative statement - he knew he needed Stamets so he chose to be nice to him. There’s NO way Lorca is interested in exploration - his real plan remains a mystery for now but hey, Stamets bought his “I take care of my crew” nonsense, so Lorca really is brilliant at scheming and lying and manipulating. (People are AGAIN falling for it, “We got some genuine warmth from Lorca” - nah, we got what he wanted us to have, not what he really felt, he needed his crew to help with the jumps and whatnot, hence his oh-so-nice speech, which ultimately meant pretty much nothing to him).

Hey, I was one of those idiots too... :laugh::giggle:

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I didn’t say Lorca doesn’t care about his crew, I said his speech didn’t really mean anything to him personally. He DOES care about his crew - as long as they’re useful. He blew up his former ship to prevent his crew from being tortured by the Klingons - you can either see this as a heroic last act of a concerned captain OR the actions of a  man who has some serious “My ship my crew I and I alone decide what happens to them, no matter what” issues regarding the lives of other people.

Lorca has a unique talent, and that’s to make people under his command attached to him through manipulation. He manipulates his crew at every opportunity, this goes from dragging all of them into hurrying up to help a colony under attack by playing audio messages of their desperate pleas for help to individual manipulation such as making Stamets offer to do one last jump or bedding an admiral ex to manipulate her into revealing her true agenda. He’s a master manipulator, and an excellent liar - “never tell the truth when a good lie will do” (JR Ewing). I think ultimately his goals are going to clash with the ones his crew has, but for now he has them where he wants them - in his pocket.

He is capable of warmth though, absolutely - like a piranha is capable of just peacefully swimming. :laugh:  

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8 hours ago, Mr.Picard said:

I didn’t say Lorca doesn’t care about his crew, I said his speech didn’t really mean anything to him personally. He DOES care about his crew - as long as they’re useful. He blew up his former ship to prevent his crew from being tortured by the Klingons - you can either see this as a heroic last act of a concerned captain OR the actions of a  man who has some serious “My ship my crew I and I alone decide what happens to them, no matter what” issues regarding the lives of other people.

Lorca has a unique talent, and that’s to make people under his command attached to him through manipulation. He manipulates his crew at every opportunity, this goes from dragging all of them into hurrying up to help a colony under attack by playing audio messages of their desperate pleas for help to individual manipulation such as making Stamets offer to do one last jump or bedding an admiral ex to manipulate her into revealing her true agenda. He’s a master manipulator, and an excellent liar - “never tell the truth when a good lie will do” (JR Ewing). I think ultimately his goals are going to clash with the ones his crew has, but for now he has them where he wants them - in his pocket.

He is capable of warmth though, absolutely - like a piranha is capable of just peacefully swimming. :laugh:  

:laugh:  Too true!  I suppose you can always trust the piranha to do what's in the best interests of the piranha.  

So, in regards to his 'deliberate accident' of getting the ship lost; you think that was just to prevent Cornwell's eventual recommendation from being heard by his crew?  I was going to say that sounds extreme, but then again, he is a man OF extremes; such as blowing up the Buran to prevent the crew's capture (how he survived is still a puzzle to solve).

It's just that...I'm genuinely LIKING the character; I don't want him to go all warm and fuzzy (like his tribble; hehe) but I was hoping that what we were seeing him genuinely bonding with his crew.  The scene with he and Stamets in the shuttle bay reminded me of the mean former marine stepdad finally telling his genius stepson that 'he did alright.' 

I guess he would manipulate me like a cat with a laser pointer. :laugh:

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5 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

:laugh:  Too true!  I suppose you can always trust the piranha to do what's in the best interests of the piranha.  

So, in regards to his 'deliberate accident' of getting the ship lost; you think that was just to prevent Cornwell's eventual recommendation from being heard by his crew?  I was going to say that sounds extreme, but then again, he is a man OF extremes; such as blowing up the Buran to prevent the crew's capture (how he survived is still a puzzle to solve).

It's just that...I'm genuinely LIKING the character; I don't want him to go all warm and fuzzy (like his tribble; hehe) but I was hoping that what we were seeing him genuinely bonding with his crew.  The scene with he and Stamets in the shuttle bay reminded me of the mean former marine stepdad finally telling his genius stepson that 'he did alright.' 

I guess he would manipulate me like a cat with a laser pointer. :laugh:

He probably would :P 

His only reason for being so nice to Stamets in the shuttle bay was so that he could manipulate him into doing another jump. He hasn't fallen in love with Stamets all of a sudden (I wish haha), he just needed him to perform another jump so that he could make the ship go wherever it is that he wanted for it to go since his data analysis was complete and the one thing he needed now was one more jump - there's no other reason for Lorca to suddenly really like a guy like Stamets who was nothing but an annoying irritation until now unless he's suddenly become very useful in some way... which he has. If you're useful, Uncle Gabe is nice to you.

I'm not sure if this is ALL because of Cornwell. Lorca's reaction when Burnham said that she's found Cornwell was not exactly one of total shock  - my guess is that he's not really bothered by it because he knew he would be somewhere else soon anyway, in  a place where Cornwell can't reach him (if I remember correctly a medical shuttle carried her away from the Discovery so she's no longer on board anyway...?) and where she can definitely not mess things up for him any further.

Of course it's all equally possible that he's under orders to do what he's doing. There IS that. Similar to Kirk in that Romulan episode OR Data in "Clues" - a character acting irrationally and weirdly until we learn that they were under orders to do so and did it all to save the crew or whatever. It would be a rather tired trope, though, and I wouldn't like it - I enjoy the idea of Shady!Lorca doing shady things for his own personal reasons instead of official Starfleet business.

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Watching the episode again now and I gotta say that I am so happy because this, along with a few other episodes seriously gave me chills. It is totally Star Trek, but with the modern theistic themes attached.  It feels like modern TV/story telling and a few scenes even feel like a top budget movie.

That opening scene with Discovery orbiting Pahvo was beautiful.  

My bullet points so far.

- I think we have ourselves a long lasting TV show here, we're in for a treat.

- Either the show is taking place in a different universe, or Lorca himself is from a different universe. One of them has to be True.  

- At some point, 3 or 4 seasons in, we're in for an Enterprise story arc. Its gonna happen, they'd be stupid not to.  

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I think Lorca is something we haven't seen a lot of in the 23rd and 24th centuries - a cynical opportunist. As such, he's something of a throwback to 21st century humanity - but I do absolutely think he was genuine in what he said to Stamets, both when he was persuading him to make the 130+ jumps and afterwards, in the shuttle bay. At the back of his mind he probably thought how nice it would be if Stamets would make another jump, because manipulators always are working out every angle, and he can't help being manipulative - that's his whole jam - but the warmth was real. That's how isaacs played it. That's why it's so difficult not to like him, or maybe just be in thrall to him. He's a hugely charismatic leader, and everyone wants to please Daddy.

A niggling point - what was the point of showing all those dead, eviscerated Klingon bodies at the end of last episode, if L'Rell's threats towards Kol went precisely nowhere? Dude's dead now, so what was the point of that?  It was just a bit "Chekhov's gun."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov's_gun

 

3 hours ago, Comiskeybum said:

That opening scene with Discovery orbiting Pahvo was beautiful.  

Something that doesn't get remarked on much is the beautiful space imagery. I wish they lingered on some of those shots a tiny bit more. It was great seeing Stamets just looking out on Pahvo from the shuttle bay, contemplating the universe. That was a wonderful Trek moment.

3 hours ago, Comiskeybum said:

- I think we have ourselves a long lasting TV show here, we're in for a treat.

I hope you're right!

As to your other points, i seriously wouldn't mind if Discovery jumped to or from an alternate time stream, or forward in time, maybe to another universe - whatever - if it meant losing the baggage of the whole "prequel" thing.

 

Edited by Robin Bland

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3 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

I think Lorca is something we haven't seen a lot of in the 23rd and 24th centuries - a cynical opportunist. As such, he's something of a throwback to 21st century humanity - but I do absolutely think he was genuine in what he said to Stamets, both when he was persuading him to make the 130+ jumps and afterwards, in the shuttle bay. At the back of his mind he probably thought how nice it would be if Stamets would make another jump, because manipulators always are working out every angle, and he can't help being manipulative - that's his whole jam - but the warmth was real. That's how isaacs played it. That's why it's so difficult not to like him, or maybe just be in thrall to him. He's a hugely charismatic leader, and everyone wants to please Daddy.

^
This was my take as well... 

... but then again...

8 hours ago, Mr.Picard said:

I guess he would manipulate me like a cat with a laser pointer. :laugh:

 

8 hours ago, Mr.Picard said:

He probably would :P 

^
I’m pretty gullible. :laugh:

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Hopefully Lorca will soon have his eyes fixed as red laser pointers.

"Lt. Arium... play with that ball of wool there."

"Yessir."

"Commander Saru... I want you to bat this piece of scrunched up paper about."

"Immediately, sir."

...

Oh, the possibilities for real drama...

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