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Episode 1.8: “Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum” Discussion Thread

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1 minute ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Fuller may have found Burnham’s story the most compelling, but judging by online comments I’ve read, the audience of DSC disagrees...

By leaps and bounds.

Burnam-ites are a decided minority among everywhere I've been.

She has yet to really ignite...passion from anyone. 

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18 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

By leaps and bounds.

Burnam-ites are a decided minority among everywhere I've been.

She has yet to really ignite...passion from anyone. 

And I’m not saying that she can’t or won’t; it’s just not happening yet

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1 minute ago, Sehlat Vie said:

And I’m not saying that she can’t or won’t; it’s just not happening yet

Oh, me either. But fans tend to choose early where who they're passionate about.

I just find it a bit...disheartening in a way that Burnam was supposed to be the core of this show and it's almost everyone BUT her that the fandom has adopted.

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I think Locutus made a really good point in that when Fuller left, the character no longer had a rudder. Fuller probably had very definite plans for her, and designed her a certain way. But as soon as he was no longer the architect of the show, those plans were redrawn. She doesn't have the vision of a writer/creator behind her; now she's just a character in search of a leading role. Her story is certainly the one by which we reached Discovery, but I'm not at all convinced any of the other writers know what to do with her. So the show is cohering around the more traditional Trek format - the ensemble.

Can't say that's a bad thing (it still allows for great characters like Lorca), but it does mean that her "central role" has been rendered pretty much superfluous. It's also sad that the first non-white "female lead" of a Trek show (though no fault of the actor) has evolved into this fairly dull character. I hope the writers take the time to rethink and retool her for season 2.

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I like Michael. In this episode, I was most irritated by Saru, but I'll admit that he's a good character. That was a particularly good scene near the end, when Michael was talking to him while he was in the medical area. I also hope the Admiral is still alive...

Does anyone think they'll reveal Secret Agent Ash in the next episode? (As I believe it's the last episode before the break.) As I said before, I don't want the big theory to be true, but we still haven't seen a single sign of Voq. It's not looking promising.

Edited by Explorer3

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29 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

I think Locutus made a really good point in that when Fuller left, the character no longer had a rudder. Fuller probably had very definite plans for her, and designed her a certain way. But as soon as he was no longer the architect of the show, those plans were redrawn. She doesn't have the vision of a writer/creator behind her; now she's just a character in search of a leading role. Her story is certainly the one by which we reached Discovery, but I'm not at all convinced any of the other writers know what to do with her. So the show is cohering around the more traditional Trek format - the ensemble.

Can't say that's a bad thing (it still allows for great characters like Lorca), but it does mean that her "central role" has been rendered pretty much superfluous. It's also sad that the first non-white "female lead" of a Trek show (though no fault of the actor) has evolved into this fairly dull character. I hope the writers take the time to rethink and retool her for season 2.

^
Sad for this, but we’re also seeing a gay couple living together aboard ship (finally!), as well as a(n admittedly underused) Hispanic doctor, so the socially progressive side of ST is still there, even if not the way Fuller originally envisioned.

31 minutes ago, Explorer3 said:

Does anyone think they'll reveal Secret Agent Ash in the next episode? (As I believe it's the last episode before the break.) As I said before, I don't want the big theory to be true, but we still haven't seen a single sign of Voq. It's not looking promising.

The way they’re building up Burnham and Tyler, I’m guessing that’s going to be the ‘shocking’ mid-season finale reveal.   

34 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

So the show is cohering around the more traditional Trek format - the ensemble.

It’s a tad disappointing that they’re having issues pulling off the whole non-captain centric, Burnham POV-thing, but sometimes you have to just let the show happen organically.

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1 hour ago, Explorer3 said:

I like Michael. In this episode, I was most irritated by Saru, but I'll admit that he's a good character. That was a particularly good scene near the end, when Michael was talking to him while he was in the medical area. I also hope the Admiral is still alive...

Does anyone think they'll reveal Secret Agent Ash in the next episode? (As I believe it's the last episode before the break.) As I said before, I don't want the big theory to be true, but we still haven't seen a single sign of Voq. It's not looking promising.

It's certainly looking that way, isn't it? I'll admit, while not much invested in the Burnham/Tyler romance, i really like Ash as a character and would like him to remain onboard. [Thinks: hang on to Vie's theory!] I also think there's a good dynamic between he and Michael - one thing they've really got right is the idea that he warms her up a bit. iiwonder if that aspect - his "humanization' of her is how they'll pull the rug from underneath her. When she realizes he's a Klingon spy, she'll revert to her comfort zone - her aloof, colder, self borne of her Vulcan upbringing. From a pure storytelling point-of-view, I think that'd be a mistake, as she's been much easier to empathize and identify with these past couple of episodes.

But hey, maybe we're all wrong and there'll be a twist we haven't seen coming...!

 

1 hour ago, Sehlat Vie said:

^
Sad for this, but we’re also seeing a gay couple living together aboard ship (finally!), as well as a(n admittedly underused) Hispanic doctor, so the socially progressive side of ST is still there, even if not the way Fuller originally envisioned.

True enough. I still believe, and hope, that Michael may yet develop into a rather more engaging character too.

Quote

The way they’re building up Burnham and Tyler, I’m guessing that’s going to be the ‘shocking’ mid-season finale reveal.   

It’s a tad disappointing that they’re having issues pulling off the whole non-captain centric, Burnham POV-thing, but sometimes you have to just let the show happen organically.

I hope it's finding its feet. I know I've sounded a bit impatient with it today, but that's because I really thought it was, a couple of episodes back and the last two installments felt like scripts that really could've used some polish. Now we're nearly at the much-trumpeted mid-season finale and I just don't feel as into it as I want to be. Maybe my expectations were too high.

Edited by Robin Bland

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10 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

True enough. I still believe, and hope, that Michael may yet develop into a rather more engaging character too.

I’m still holding out hope as well.

As a former fan of “The Walking Dead”, I’ve seen what Sonequa Martin-Green is capable of, and it’s the reason I was so excited by her casting in ST.

My wife and I also saw her live during a taping of “The Wil Wheaton Project” (a sadly & prematurely canceled SyFy channel geek version of E’s “Talk Soup”).   She did a parody infomercial sketch, and her comic timing during that taping was Swiss watch perfect.  Take after take (for technical reasons) she kept her energy, humor and timing on point.   I was very impressed.

 

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On 11/6/2017 at 8:11 AM, Robin Bland said:

Honestly? So far, I like Discovery because it’s Star Trek, not because I find it deeply impressive. It looks really nice and there’s been a couple of decent-to-good episodes and I’m in it for the long haul. I like the characters (mostly) but they’re made that way by charismatic actors more than great, tight scripts. 

I find that I’m wanting it to be good more than I’m actually enjoying it, more than I’m bouncing off my seat with a sense of honest excitement. There’s such an uneven tone throughout this war arc, and the showrunners need to pull it together now. Serialized storytelling is fine, but it’s just one tool in the box. And here it seems to be obfuscating the arc plot, not clarifying it or drawing me in with its reveals. I have absolutely no idea what’s going on with the Klingons and worse, I don’t really care. They just seems insipid and stupid a lot of the time - dumber and even less believable than the Space Vikings of old. And they’re boring too, Chieffo’s valiant  efforts notwithstanding.

This episode felt like it was pulling in two entirely different directions - wanting to embrace the old spirit of optimism, and wanting to be gritty and modern in its portrayal of the necessities of war.  (DS9 proved you can do both those tones and make them work.) To me, this episode felt like a late-stage rewrite, so you had all the heavy war plot shoehorned into a decent if hokey away mission story that at least served to give us some interesting and much-needed character development. 

Which it all makes it sound like I didn’t enjoy it - I did, but I’m still waiting for that episode where I go, now this is it’s own thing. This is a classic, and it’s all its own new Star Trek. 

I mostly agree with you, except maybe for the fact that I didn't enjoy the latest episode at all. It contained too much of what Trek did to death, and it was indeed confusing, at times.

Like you, I stay here and keep watching because I love Star Trek, I haven't been hooked up in any way yet. I'm watching for what it could be, but if I were new to Trek, or if it was a totally original show, I'm not sure I'd keep watching much longer.

And this last episode was the worst, I found myself really looking forward to the end credits.

Mid-season finale next week. Let's see where it'll lead, I guess...

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40 minutes ago, Tupperfan said:

I mostly agree with you, except maybe for the fact that I didn't enjoy the latest episode at all. It contained too much of what Trek did to death, and it was indeed confusing, at times.

Like you, I stay here and keep watching because I love Star Trek, I haven't been hooked up in any way yet. I'm watching for what it could be, but if I were new to Trek, or if it was a totally original show, I'm not sure I'd keep watching much longer.

 

This is pretty much where I am right now. I'm not a Trekkie, and Lorca is the one character who keeps me with the show. If he gets dropped and the show continues to deliver episodes like the last two, I'm out.

I read an interview today in which one of the show's producers stated that they're looking into season 2 plot ideas now and that they're "aware of what worked and what didn't". Welp. They also said they're aware of the fandom's "nope" reaction to the Klingons and they basically blame Fuller for it, saying "it was his idea" in a "welp don't look at us" way. I really didn't like the sound of that, given the fact that they promised there would be an explanation for the whole Klingon redesign. 

I do agree with y'all who say Burnham just isn't that interesting and that she probably really needed Fuller's writing to become the character he envisioned for her to be. She works perfectly as part of the ensemble, no doubt, she's okay, she does deliver good points and plot moments, absolutely, but as a lead character... nah. I like the Will Riker comparison - I wouldn't watch a Riker-As-The-Captain-Or-Central-Character-focused show, but I definitely enjoy seeing him as part of the crew.

 

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19 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

They also said they're aware of the fandom's "nope" reaction to the Klingons and they basically blame Fuller for it, saying "it was his idea" in a "welp don't look at us" way. I really didn't like the sound of that, given the fact that they promised there would be an explanation for the whole Klingon redesign. 

 

I don't care whose fault it is. Honestly, Fuller was out early enough that I think THEY could have corrected the issue fairly early on. As far as I'm concerned, call them all mutants banished for being mutants 200 years before. I really kind of don't care. I don't care about the Klingons to start with, so I'll buy pretty much any explanation they want to give so long as it gets us away from this bad Game of Thrones nonsense and, preferably, leaves the Klingons in the rear view, at least mostly.

I don't even care if Burnam wakes up with Lorca in her shower and, "I just had this dream where the Klingons looked super weird." He just raises an eyebrow and, "Yeah, okay."  

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1 hour ago, Tupperfan said:

I mostly agree with you, except maybe for the fact that I didn't enjoy the latest episode at all. It contained too much of what Trek did to death, and it was indeed confusing, at times.

Like you, I stay here and keep watching because I love Star Trek, I haven't been hooked up in any way yet. I'm watching for what it could be, but if I were new to Trek, or if it was a totally original show, I'm not sure I'd keep watching much longer.

And this last episode was the worst, I found myself really looking forward to the end credits.

Mid-season finale next week. Let's see where it'll lead, I guess...

I think I'm trying to convince myself that I like it, as much as anything. Picking out bits that work for me and magnifying those, rather than being genuinely immersed in it. Trying to ignore the stuff that doesn't.

I meant to respond to your rather fine essay over on last week's thread, where you made several great points about feeling frustrated with the show's representation and sense of (future) diversity. I think i just got fed up with saying anything further about that episode.  Perhaps I'm less patient than I was back in the day, when I'd happiiy have sat through two 24-episode long seasons of a Trek show warming up peppered with just a few great installments here and there. But now; with its new superannuated "serialized" format, and it's nearly pay-per-view method of viewing, I really want Discovery to deliver.

46 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

 

I read an interview today in which one of the show's producers stated that they're looking into season 2 plot ideas now and that they're "aware of what worked and what didn't". Welp. They also said they're aware of the fandom's "nope" reaction to the Klingons and they basically blame Fuller for it, saying "it was his idea" in a "welp don't look at us" way. I really didn't like the sound of that, given the fact that they promised there would be an explanation for the whole Klingon redesign. 

...

 

Where was that? Any chance of a link? I'd quite like to read that too. :)

14 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

I don't care whose fault it is. Honestly, Fuller was out early enough that I think THEY could have corrected the issue fairly early on. As far as I'm concerned, call them all mutants banished for being mutants 200 years before. I really kind of don't care. I don't care about the Klingons to start with, so I'll buy pretty much any explanation they want to give so long as it gets us away from this bad Game of Thrones nonsense and, preferably, leaves the Klingons in the rear view, at least mostly.

At this point, that'd work for me.

Quote

I don't even care if Burnam wakes up with Lorca in her shower and, "I just had this dream where the Klingons looked super weird." He just raises an eyebrow and, "Yeah, okay."  

Word.

Edited by Robin Bland

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Here’s the article (sorry, on mobile, no fancy embedded link): https://trekmovie.com/2017/11/05/showrunner-reveals-work-on-star-trek-discovery-season-2-to-begin-in-two-weeks/

I like the Lorca under the shower idea (okay for shallow reasons mostly, haha). I’d actually find it hilarious and amazing to see Trek referencing my second favorite show of all time even though I’m sure it would cause as much rage as the Dallas scene did back then :laugh: 

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6 hours ago, Mr.Picard said:

Here’s the article (sorry, on mobile, no fancy embedded link): https://trekmovie.com/2017/11/05/showrunner-reveals-work-on-star-trek-discovery-season-2-to-begin-in-two-weeks/

I like the Lorca under the shower idea (okay for shallow reasons mostly, haha). I’d actually find it hilarious and amazing to see Trek referencing my second favorite show of all time even though I’m sure it would cause as much rage as the Dallas scene did back then :laugh: 

NIce!

And regarding this:

 

  • Doug Jones is an “angel” to work with, and a “big hugger.”

 

^
I can confirm that! :laugh:

7583792906_995ff65c9b_n.jpg

My wife and I have a group hug pic with Jones from Comic Con 5 years ago.   He is a very kind man.   One of the reasons I was so excited about his being cast in DSC (beyond my love of his work in Hellboy, Pan’s Labyrinth and Buffy).

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7 hours ago, Mr.Picard said:

Here’s the article (sorry, on mobile, no fancy embedded link): https://trekmovie.com/2017/11/05/showrunner-reveals-work-on-star-trek-discovery-season-2-to-begin-in-two-weeks/

I like the Lorca under the shower idea (okay for shallow reasons mostly, haha). I’d actually find it hilarious and amazing to see Trek referencing my second favorite show of all time even though I’m sure it would cause as much rage as the Dallas scene did back then :laugh: 

Thank you! 

20 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

NIce!

And regarding this:

 

  • Doug Jones is an “angel” to work with, and a “big hugger.”

 

^
I can confirm that! :laugh:

7583792906_995ff65c9b_n.jpg

My wife and I have a group hug pic with Jones from Comic Con 5 years ago.   He is a very kind man.   One of the reasons I was so excited about his being cast in DSC (beyond my love of his work in Hellboy, Pan’s Labyrinth and Buffy).

He was on AfterTrek (via Skype) this week. He seems like such a warm, lovely guy. 

Having now read that article (and reading between its lines) I’m hugely relieved to know the Klingon war arc will be done and dispensed with this season. “Polarizing”...? How about just misconceived? Poorly written?

I’m all for the “novelistic” approach if it means Discovery can move forward in S2 to uncharted territory - new worlds, new civilizations. 

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31 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

Thank you! 

He was on AfterTrek (via Skype) this week. He seems like such a warm, lovely guy. 

Having now read that article (and reading between its lines) I’m hugely relieved to know the Klingon war arc will be done and dispensed with this season. “Polarizing”...? How about just misconceived? Poorly written?

I’m all for the “novelistic” approach if it means Discovery can move forward in S2 to uncharted territory - new worlds, new civilizations. 

I have to admit, hearing the Klingon war arc ends with the season finale gave me a sigh of relief.

It was a storyline that was going nowhere, frankly.  It only seemed to offer opportunities for Starfleet officers to act a bit more ruthless than usual, but that's nothing new (see: last three years of DS9).

As for the Klingons being 'polarizing'?  While I enjoy their new, more alien look and feel, I admit that their storyline just feels like it's slogging along toward an unfocused end.  I won't miss it. 

And yes, PLEASE OH PLEASE tell me that S2 will be done with this 'into more darkness' approach.  This is flipping Star Trek, not Apocalypse Now,. 

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2 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

As for the Klingons being 'polarizing'?  While I enjoy their new, more alien look and feel, I admit that their storyline just feels like it's slogging along toward an unfocused end.  I won't miss it. 

And yes, PLEASE OH PLEASE tell me that S2 will be done with this 'into more darkness' approach.  This is flipping Star Trek, not Apocalypse Now,. 

Simply seeing what they kept of Fuller's idea, while it may sound like sacrilege, I'm pretty sure I wasn't going to like what he did.

Let's have the darkness followed by the cheery dawn...with maybe a little gray. I mean, a nice Lorca sigh when he's given a "map the nebula and check out those pirate rumors of space dolphins" assignment is enough.

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I love the idea of Lorca, with all his battle-hardened rough edges, out there exploring, encountering new cultures, sometimes getting the wrong end of the stick and being reigned in by the more diplomatic elements of his team. So much scope for both drama and laughs, right there.

Edited by Robin Bland

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15 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

I love the idea of Lorca, with all his battle-hardened rough edges, out there exploring, encountering new cultures, sometimes getting the wrong end of the stick and being reigned in by the more diplomatic elements of his team. So much scope for both drama and laughs, right there.

Wonder if, since the show is about change (at least through Burnham and possibly Tyler), Lorca will come around as well.  I’m not saying he’ll become Picard overnight, but maybe a bit of the burden lifted from off of his soul?  Just wondering...

 

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42 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

I love the idea of Lorca, with all his battle-hardened rough edges, out there exploring, encountering new cultures, sometimes getting the wrong end of the stick and being reigned in by the more diplomatic elements of his team. So much scope for both drama and laughs, right there.

Lorca, after stunning a group of squabbling diplomats, "What? This IS diplomacy, Lieutenant. Look around you, the arguing is over and everyone is perfectly agreeable. And, when they wake up, I think we'll find 'em a little less contentious."

"Worst case? If they can agree they hate me, maybe they'll like each other more."

Edited by prometheus59650

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3 hours ago, prometheus59650 said:

Lorca, after stunning a group of squabbling diplomats, "What? This IS diplomacy, Lieutenant. Look around you, the arguing is over and everyone is perfectly agreeable. And, when they wake up, I think we'll find 'em a little less contentious."

"Worst case? If they can agree they hate me, maybe they'll like each other more."

:laugh:

Very Lorca...

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1 hour ago, Sehlat Vie said:

:laugh:

Very Lorca...

LOL. Thanks.

I'd like to think I have something of a handle on this guy. :)

Edited by prometheus59650

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2 hours ago, prometheus59650 said:

LOL. Thanks.

I'd like to think I have something of a handle on this guy. :)

Safe to say. 

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Hammer   
On 11/6/2017 at 3:37 PM, prometheus59650 said:

By leaps and bounds.

Burnam-ites are a decided minority among everywhere I've been.

She has yet to really ignite...passion from anyone. 

I actually find her character annoying. She was raised by Sarek of all people. How many billions of Vulcans living in the 23rd century but it had to be Sarek that adopted her? How about sending her back to Earth instead of raising her to be an emotionally repressed, broken adult. It's like they needed some of Spock's 'magic' to rub off on her and turn her into a character we care about because 'OMG Spock's adopted sister!' Ugh. As a Vulcan she could be forgiven for being antisocial, but she's just human who had a weird upbringing who thought that she knew better than her captain. Making her the main POV character of the show was a mistake because the audience doesn't relate to or empathize with her. Nothing to do with Sonequa Martin-Green's portrayal of the character, she has done her job well despite having to play a stiff, uptight character who is more irritating than Wesley Crusher.

This is pretty much where I am right now. I'm not a Trekkie, and Lorca is the one character who keeps me with the show. If he gets dropped and the show continues to deliver episodes like the last two, I'm out.

I have to agree, Lorca is a much more interesting character than Micheal Burnham. He's so much more relatable and real. I was sold on him when he waited until the last moment before spore-jumping after saving the colony, just to get max damage with his depth charges. Finally, a bad-ass captain!

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