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Episode 1.7: "Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad" Discussion Thread

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4 hours ago, Yorick said:

This episode dated Stardate 2136 point something takes place after Mudd's Women, Stardate 1329. I thought they were going to get it right way back in episode one when when the Stardate was 12 something. It's a minor, trivial thing but that makes it a minor, trivial effort to avoid. It's just typing. With Mudd now a bit crazed and deadly, there should be none of that prime timeline guff any more, not unless there's something mighty weird and wild coming the a universe near you before the show ends. That said, I'm enjoying the show! 

I’m enjoying the show overall, but I had serious issues with this particular episode.  

Mudd went from being a bumbling Falstaff-sort to a threat on a par with Khan or a Borg drone.

In “Mudd’s Women” he was portrayed as a ‘lovable’ con man (though I still think he’s little more than a creepy pimp).   But after last night’s episode?  There should’ve been a galaxy-wide APB on this dangerous threat to Federation starships.   

3 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

The good: Stamets, Tyler, Tilly. I really like Stamets - Anthony Rapp took what he was given and, in performance, fashioned a full silk purse from it. When he dances with Burnham, I’m yelling at the screen, “Yes! Loosen her up!” Every time he appeared, the episode got better, even if some of the pacing in these scenes was odd. (Even if you’re in a time loop, shouldn’t there be a sense of urgency?) Same for Tyler - if he’s a Klingon spy, then they’ll be taking another of the show’s best assets and throwing it away. His charisma did so much to give those scenes both warmth and a sense of danger. Tilly also - her sweet, emotionally intelligent steering of  Burnham was just great.

^ All of this.

Though i still think some great dramatic fireworks could ensue if he is revealed as a Klingon spy.   It could also be significant if he comes to LOVE humanity, and wants to defect to #TeamFederation.  I suspect Lorca (given his affinity for outsiders like Burnham) would offer him sanctuary, and even keep his true identity a secret from Starfleet. 

5 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

He’s written like a supervillain from the hokiest mid-70s Marvel comic you ever read. Nothing wrong with that, in a Marvel comic, but in the TOS-era Trek universe? Starfleet should be forever on high alert when this guy shows up - he’s now up there with Q for bedvilry and mayhem. If Kirk ever encounters him, he should— oh, wait...

Please, no more Mudd. Enough already. He’s not as charming or engaging as you think he is.

^ Oh, so VERY much this...

7 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

Do I have to mention the space whale? I’m not mentioning the space whale, or its case of indigestion. Someone else can do that. 

I thought TNG sort of quasi-established that spaceborne lifeforms (TinMan, the Farpoint space jellyfish, space ravioli in “Galaxy’s Child”) were relatively rare.   Now they practically have space-whale watching tours... what the hell, guys?   Are they unheard of, or aren’t they?    

The ‘great mysteries’ of the Farpoint alien, TinMan, etc. should’ve been no more surprising than discovering a new subspecies of whale. 

11 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

Mostly, I’m enjoying it. This episode was the first serious clunker for me. 

My POV exactly.  

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1 hour ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Mudd went from being a bumbling Falstaff-sort to a threat on a par with Khan or a Borg drone.

See, that doesn't bother me at all simply because I don't believe the creators when they tell me this is the primeline. Not when they show me stuff like this.

I might have believed he could jack the computer if they'd shown or implied that before he started involving  the crew HE was in this loop probably thousands of times to basically learn the software of the ship.

But, since they didn't...different Mudd.

Edited by prometheus59650

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1 hour ago, Sehlat Vie said:

The ‘great mysteries’ of the Farpoint alien,

Oh, and the Farpoint alien was no "great mystery." I figured out what was what as soon as Riker, etc beamed into it and Troi had her meltdown.

 

Sigh. It gave me a sad that it took Jean-Luc so much longer to figure it out. :)

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1 hour ago, prometheus59650 said:

See, that doesn't bother me at all simply because I don't believe the creators when they tell me this is the primeline. Not when they show me stuff like this.

I might have believed he could jack the computer if they'd shown or implied that before he started involving  the crew HE was in this loop probably thousands of times to basically learn the software of the ship.

But, since they didn't...different Mudd.

That’d probably help; same way I ignored ENT’s discontinuities... a post-FC timeline.   I could believe this isn’t the Mudd we knew from TOS, but again, (and I hate to play this old tune again) it only reinforces my belief that this should’ve been a VGR sequel, not a TOS prequel; more freedom and latitude to play around with new characters rather than misremembered older ones.

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1 minute ago, Sehlat Vie said:

That’d probably help; same way I ignored ENT’s discontinuities... a post-FC timeline.   I could believe this isn’t the Mudd we knew from TOS, but again, (and I hate to play this old tune again) it only reinforces my belief that this should’ve been a VGR sequel, not a TOS prequel; more freedom and latitude to play around with new characters rather than misremembered older ones.

Or, if he had gone through all this, thought it out after looping and correcting screw up after screw and he STILL forgets one, stupidly obvious thing at the end.

I could have taken that as a take on "classic" Mudd.

But this is still all just going to be a new timeline.

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1 hour ago, Sehlat Vie said:

That’d probably help; same way I ignored ENT’s discontinuities... a post-FC timeline.   I could believe this isn’t the Mudd we knew from TOS, but again, (and I hate to play this old tune again) it only reinforces my belief that this should’ve been a VGR sequel, not a TOS prequel; more freedom and latitude to play around with new characters rather than misremembered older ones.

This...

But...

1 hour ago, prometheus59650 said:

Or, if he had gone through all this, thought it out after looping and correcting screw up after screw and he STILL forgets one, stupidly obvious thing at the end.

I could have taken that as a take on "classic" Mudd.

But this is still all just going to be a new timeline.

That's what I'm thinking too.

3 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

I thought TNG sort of quasi-established that spaceborne lifeforms (TinMan, the Farpoint space jellyfish, space ravioli in “Galaxy’s Child”) were relatively rare.   Now they practically have space-whale watching tours... what the hell, guys?   Are they unheard of, or aren’t they?    

It did... but I suppose that's why it's on the "endangered species" list. But then they go onto say that they crash into starships, so... I dunno.

Did you get the METAPHOR?  The space whale ignores her own instincts - oh, just like you, Burnham! Oh, the subtlety.

Also, the fact that Mudd used it the way he did put him in a different category to the Mudd we've known previously, let alone all the other stuff. 

 

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1 hour ago, Robin Bland said:

This...

But...

That's what I'm thinking too.

It did... but I suppose that's why it's on the "endangered species" list. But then they go onto say that they crash into starships, so... I dunno.

Did you get the METAPHOR?  The space whale ignores her own instincts - oh, just like you, Burnham! Oh, the subtlety.

Also, the fact that Mudd used it the way he did put him in a different category to the Mudd we've known previously, let alone all the other stuff. 

 

Yeah, that Burnham/space whale metaphor was sledgehammered into the skull a bit, wasn't it? :laugh:

And yes, Mudd slashing his way through the spacewhale's maw was very much not the bumbling Falstaff-Ian villain we saw in TOS.  Better to just make him a new character (Mudd's brother, whatever...).  

But "Super-Mudd" was pretty tough to swallow; if he were that ruthless and intelligent, TOS' Kirk wouldn't have had a chance.  His abilities were more like Khan or a Borg than Mudd.   What really irks me is that in his first DISCO appearance, they got him SOOO right.  It was subtle, and in character.   

This was like a Mudd from the Kelvinverse; where everyone is suddenly a genius or prodigy (i.e. Uhura suddenly speaking a million languages and Chekov being a wunderkind).

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1 hour ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Yeah, that Burnham/space whale metaphor was sledgehammered into the skull a bit, wasn't it? :laugh:

And yes, Mudd slashing his way through the spacewhale's maw was very much not the bumbling Falstaff-Ian villain we saw in TOS.  Better to just make him a new character (Mudd's brother, whatever...).  

But "Super-Mudd" was pretty tough to swallow; if he were that ruthless and intelligent, TOS' Kirk wouldn't have had a chance.  His abilities were more like Khan or a Borg than Mudd.   What really irks me is that in his first DISCO appearance, they got him SOOO right.  It was subtle, and in character.   

This was like a Mudd from the Kelvinverse; where everyone is suddenly a genius or prodigy (i.e. Uhura suddenly speaking a million languages and Chekov being a wunderkind).

Quite apart from any other consideration, Mudd committed treachery by trying to sell both Discovery and Burnham to the Klingons in wartime.

But that's okay, he's a jolly japester really. So we'll let him go.

I appreciate it was supposed to be a lighter-hearted episode, but on that point alone, it fails. It fails even as comedy when you're asked to swallow (pun intended) how easy it is to commit suicide in a really painful way because you know you're coming back because it's a time loop. Really? You're that confident? But yeah, that sort of superhuman confidence also puts me in mind of your point about the "Kelvinverse' attitude to characterization also, and is at odds with this new version of Trek with its supposed deeper, layered characters. They should all be in a trauma ward after this...

To me, this felt like something written in a hurry to fill an episode slot.

 

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59 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

Quite apart from any other consideration, Mudd committed treachery by trying to sell both Discovery and Burnham to the Klingons in wartime.

But that's okay, he's a jolly japester really. So we'll let him go.

I appreciate it was supposed to be a lighter-hearted episode, but on that point alone, it fails. It fails even as comedy when you're asked to swallow (pun intended) how easy it is to commit suicide in a really painful way because you know you're coming back because it's a time loop. Really? You're that confident? But yeah, that sort of superhuman confidence also puts me in mind of your point about the "Kelvinverse' attitude to characterization also, and is at odds with this new version of Trek with its supposed deeper, layered characters. They should all be in a trauma ward after this...

To me, this felt like something written in a hurry to fill an episode slot.

^ This.

Especially the last line.  It was a bottle episode, and seemingly designed both as a slot-filler and a budget saver. 

“Magic...” also reminded me of the ENT S1 Ferengi episode, “Acquisition”; another ‘light-hearted’ piracy story that seems to spit all over canon (in that case it was first contact with the Ferengi 200 years early). 

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I have to provide a dissenting opinion here...it might be my favourite episode of the show so far. I wasn't blown away or anything, but it was fairly entertaining and interesting.

Firstly, I'm not a fan of TOS, so I'm not bothered with Mudd's characterisation. I don't think I even saw the original version of him in the few TOS episodes I've watched. Aside from that, this episode devotes time to the characters, which I always enjoy. I absolutely want to see the crew members hanging out at a party, or advising one another on personal issues, and working together in the kind of way that I recall from TNG and DS9. I like how awkward Michael is, and Ash continues to be likeable. Stamets also came across well.

Negative points? The end of the episode struck me as odd. Mudd commits terrible crimes, and they just let him go free? Is there no justice system or something? I'm a little puzzled. I also thought they could have built up the Ash and Michael stuff a bit more before some of the scenes we were given, but I guess it still worked.

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1 hour ago, Explorer3 said:

I have to provide a dissenting opinion here...it might be my favourite episode of the show so far. I wasn't blown away or anything, but it was fairly entertaining and interesting.

Individual results may (and will) vary.  ;)

1 hour ago, Explorer3 said:

Negative points? The end of the episode struck me as odd. Mudd commits terrible crimes, and they just let him go free? Is there no justice system or something? I'm a little puzzled. I also thought they could have built up the Ash and Michael stuff a bit more before some of the scenes we were given, but I guess it still worked.

Yeah, that ending.... seriously, it was like sending Jason Voorhees to his room without any supper. 

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2 hours ago, Explorer3 said:

I have to provide a dissenting opinion here...it might be my favourite episode of the show so far. I wasn't blown away or anything, but it was fairly entertaining and interesting.

Firstly, I'm not a fan of TOS, so I'm not bothered with Mudd's characterisation. I don't think I even saw the original version of him in the few TOS episodes I've watched. Aside from that, this episode devotes time to the characters, which I always enjoy. I absolutely want to see the crew members hanging out at a party, or advising one another on personal issues, and working together in the kind of way that I recall from TNG and DS9. I like how awkward Michael is, and Ash continues to be likeable. Stamets also came across well.

Negative points? The end of the episode struck me as odd. Mudd commits terrible crimes, and they just let him go free? Is there no justice system or something? I'm a little puzzled. I also thought they could have built up the Ash and Michael stuff a bit more before some of the scenes we were given, but I guess it still worked.

Yeah. I liked it. too.

"Cause and Effect." but far more interesting.

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Yup, your mileage may vary. 

I think I know why this ep is popular. It’s old-style Star Trek. A time thingummy that causes the format to go weird and the crew has to come together and solve the puzzle. It’s recognizable fun with a lot more warmth than we’ve seen so far in the somewhat dour Discovery. 

We do get character development (of sorts) and that’s always welcome. 

Canon be damned. It doesn't matter if Mudd is a classic or an all-new character, he’s still ridiculously overpowered. Reckon the old Star Trek (any iteration) would’ve had him incarcerated for cruelty to animals and/or treason. 

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11 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

Yup, your mileage may vary. 

I think I know why this ep is popular. It’s old-style Star Trek. A time thingummy that causes the format to go weird and the crew has to come together and solve the puzzle. It’s recognizable fun with a lot more warmth than we’ve seen so far in the somewhat dour Discovery. 

We do get character development (of sorts) and that’s always welcome. 

Canon be damned. It doesn't matter if Mudd is a classic or an all-new character, he’s still ridiculously overpowered. Reckon the old Star Trek (any iteration) would’ve had him incarcerated for cruelty to animals and/or treason. 

I would say he is (easily) more dangerous in this episode than Khan was in "Space Seed" yet he's just allowed to waltz off, consequence-free.  Then again, Kirk did the same for Khan so yeah, maybe it does remind fans of an old ST episode, I dunno.

All I know is that I found SuperMudd too unrealistic (seriously; intra-ship beaming was considered dodgy in TOS, yet Mudd masters it??), the resolution was shabby, and the tired time loop device was tedious.  They could do much better.  

And yes, I agree that DISCO to date has been a few shades darker than more traditional ST, but then again, this is a war arc, similar to DS9's 5th-7th seasons; and there was a lot of heaviness in those seasons as well.   I'm curious to see where the show will go after the war arc...

 

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5 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Then again, Kirk did the same for Khan so yeah, maybe it does remind fans of an old ST episode, I dunno.

Yeah. What Khan did was at least as brutal as what Mudd-El (Like that better than Super Mudd just now) did and he walked.

Hell, even Mudd was going to endure some semblance of prolonged suffering. Khan was just going to have to rough it for a while until he got some houses built, but he went scot-free.

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I'm surprised with the overall reactions, I felt like this was the most Trekish of episodes from Disco. I wish they didn't have to use Mudd though. I never liked Mudd, he's not that interesting to be honest.

I don't see a timeline problem here though. This was 10 years before Kirk right? People change. Mudd could have easely went from what was shown here to what we came to know him as. Also, do keep in mind that to everyone but Stamets he was just a guy that walked into the ship and got easely fooled ( since they can't recall the other loops ).

Honestly? I think the mistake is on TOS's part not DISCO's. Mudd was a messed up guy. He was involved in human trafficking for god's sake. I can see DISCO's Mudd doing that, but I can't see TOS's Mudd doing that. They told us he did that but by judging by his actions he isn't the kind of person that would do that. That kind of job involves no principles, no sense of value to human life, and probably dealing with some dangerous characters, which most likely meant he would be used to killing.

DISCO's Mudd is more Mudd than TOS's Mudd was. To me anyway. People like the character but they must understand that he was portraited that way because the writters couldn't show what a real human traficant would be like. Not on TV and not on that time.

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50 minutes ago, Garak the spy said:

I'm surprised with the overall reactions, I felt like this was the most Trekish of episodes from Disco. I wish they didn't have to use Mudd though. I never liked Mudd, he's not that interesting to be honest.

I don't see a timeline problem here though. This was 10 years before Kirk right? People change. Mudd could have easely went from what was shown here to what we came to know him as. Also, do keep in mind that to everyone but Stamets he was just a guy that walked into the ship and got easely fooled ( since they can't recall the other loops ).

Honestly? I think the mistake is on TOS's part not DISCO's. Mudd was a messed up guy. He was involved in human trafficking for god's sake. I can see DISCO's Mudd doing that, but I can't see TOS's Mudd doing that. They told us he did that but by judging by his actions he isn't the kind of person that would do that. That kind of job involves no principles, no sense of value to human life, and probably dealing with some dangerous characters, which most likely meant he would be used to killing.

DISCO's Mudd is more Mudd than TOS's Mudd was. To me anyway. People like the character but they must understand that he was portraited that way because the writters couldn't show what a real human traficant would be like. Not on TV and not on that time.

7

The fundamental problem is that in every appearance of Mudd before now, he was more than a bit of a bumbling oaf who stumbled around into one half-assed scheme or other. This is a guy that couldn't navigate a ship.

The Mudd in this episode is nothing like that. This guy thought of every contingency when it comes to taking over the ship with no real implication that he'd maybe spent a few thousand loops figuring it out.

Now, as close as I could come to making Mudd-El like the Mudd Kirk encounters is to, say, write that when Mudd finally bails on Stella, her dad uses his connections to wipe out any connection and resource he could have, so he has to come up with whatever he can to get by.

 

But these two Mudds are very different at this point.

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2 hours ago, Garak the spy said:

I don't see a timeline problem here though. This was 10 years before Kirk right? People change. Mudd could have easely went from what was shown here to what we came to know him as. Also, do keep in mind that to everyone but Stamets he was just a guy that walked into the ship and got easely fooled ( since they can't recall the other loops ).

 

Even from what the crew observed, he attempted to hijack a Federation starship and sell it out to the Klingons.  That would at the very least get him imprisonment.   That’s a lot more dangerous and ruthless than the space pimp/penny ante racketeer we meet in “Mudd’s Women.” 

 

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On 10/29/2017 at 5:58 AM, prometheus59650 said:

That's really where Star Trek's future has always been. "Federation standard" = 'English.' Federation values = American values presented from an American perspective, sometimes cribbing things nearly verbatim from the US Constitution to create the Federation law of the land.

Hell, even Jean-Luc is the subject of some mockery early on as though French culture is simply an amusing fetish that people are just sort of hanging onto by the 24th century.

Now, that boils down to the fact that Star Trek as a product is a product of American writers, an American production team, etc, but the fact remains that DSC is Americentric because the Federation is and, even by the 24th century doesn't pretend to be much else.

Damn it, lost my long response to your post and a review of the episode. I was quite proud of it too. I though we were beyond such shit things in this day and age, but the auto-editor basically saved your quote and about a line of my carefully-crafted reply.

Still as heart-breaking as back in 1999...

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8 minutes ago, Tupperfan said:

Damn it, lost my long response to your post and a review of the episode. I was quite proud of it too. I though we were beyond such shit things in this day and age, but the auto-editor basically saved your quote and about a line of my carefully-crafted reply.

Still as heart-breaking as back in 1999...

That's happened to me before. I feel your pain, man. :)

 

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18 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

That's happened to me before. I feel your pain, man. :)

 

Yeah. I just barely have the time to visit and skim over the threads, much less write a long post, but this was too much. I might try re-writing it later, because there was a point or two worth writing about, but I'm not sure they are worth reading, haha!

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On 10/28/2017 at 11:13 AM, Sehlat Vie said:

Not to mention the Enterprise was the pride of the fleet; the flagship.  Disco is an experimental science vessel; so I see Disco’s crew more like a bunch of Caltech students who are suddenly drafted into the navy.   The Enterprise’s crew were supposed to be the best of the best.   It’s not surprising that discipline there is a lot tighter. 

Holy cow!!! Disco. I had no effin' idea. I kept on looking for the connection of some social musical movement in which disco was back. Jeeshh...I need liner notes with the eps. 

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On 10/29/2017 at 5:58 AM, prometheus59650 said:

That's really where Star Trek's future has always been. "Federation standard" = 'English.' Federation values = American values presented from an American perspective, sometimes cribbing things nearly verbatim from the US Constitution to create the Federation law of the land.

Hell, even Jean-Luc is the subject of some mockery early on as though French culture is simply an amusing fetish that people are just sort of hanging onto by the 24th century.

Now, that boils down to the fact that Star Trek as a product is a product of American writers, an American production team, etc, but the fact remains that DSC is Americentric because the Federation is and, even by the 24th century doesn't pretend to be much else.

Alright, half-assed attempt number 2, don't expect it to be the unprecedented piece of genius writing that was my first iteration, but consider it a tribute. :P

The Americano-centrism of Trek has been something that has annoyed me since my early days on Trekweb, and I've been vocal about it before, but I'm more or less from the showcased culture myself, so I get it. I get that Kirk's Enterprise celebrates American Thanksgiving, that Federation Standard is English, that Tom Paris' fondness for the 20th century is actually a fondness for some (white) perception of America.

I get it, but I don't get why, in a day and age where American high-budget entertainment products rely more and more on international revenue, that a world-uniting (literally) show - one that, ironically, doesn't fare that well in many foreign markets, especially when compared to other franchises - that is available everywhere right off the bat, and highlights its diversity even more than before (and don't misread me, it's great) by starting off with a Malay captain and a Chinese-named starship, heads back to the familiar trope of a 21st century American federation.

Unless of course it's the whole plan: Burnham, a high-ranking (First Officer) foreigner (Near-Vulcan) now joining a new society (Discovery) as an outcast in near-servitude who will then slowly blend-in and contribute through her talent and hard-work. The Federation dream!

So I do get that it's an American show whose true goal is to reflect its society through the prism of Science-Fiction, and I'm averagely okay with it. But I would like to see more actual diversity, acknowledging where we are heading as a globalized (to a degree or another, like it or not) civilization - something that even TOS actually did better - not to mention seeing more diversity at the interstellar level within the confines of the fictional Federation (even if it could be established that there are Starfleet ships crewed by majority species other than humans, akin to the Vulcan-crewed Intrepid in TOS).

So yeah, I get it, but it annoys me, which is what things I love do to me, sometimes.

On 10/31/2017 at 4:30 PM, Garak the spy said:

I'm surprised with the overall reactions, I felt like this was the most Trekish of episodes from Disco. I wish they didn't have to use Mudd though. I never liked Mudd, he's not that interesting to be honest.

I don't see a timeline problem here though. This was 10 years before Kirk right? People change. Mudd could have easely went from what was shown here to what we came to know him as. Also, do keep in mind that to everyone but Stamets he was just a guy that walked into the ship and got easely fooled ( since they can't recall the other loops ).

Honestly? I think the mistake is on TOS's part not DISCO's. Mudd was a messed up guy. He was involved in human trafficking for god's sake. I can see DISCO's Mudd doing that, but I can't see TOS's Mudd doing that. They told us he did that but by judging by his actions he isn't the kind of person that would do that. That kind of job involves no principles, no sense of value to human life, and probably dealing with some dangerous characters, which most likely meant he would be used to killing.

DISCO's Mudd is more Mudd than TOS's Mudd was. To me anyway. People like the character but they must understand that he was portraited that way because the writters couldn't show what a real human traficant would be like. Not on TV and not on that time.

I have no issue, at all, with Discovery being more Trekish. But with about a dozen episodes a season, I was hoping the plan was not to re-hash the time-honoured Trek time gimmick (Time crystals? This has to be close to the mushroom-drive for bogus science. But this is Star Trek after all, so as others have mentioned: who keeps count by now) because all it did was to remove any sense of jeopardy, no doubt an impressive feat itself, as modern TV fully embraces the "no one is safe" model. So, as you mildly wonder how the crew will get out of this pickle - thank goodness that Stamets' mushroom trip side-effects include Guinan Nexus-ish Timeline Awareness (which was thankfully nicely setup through a mirror in an earlier episode) - you realize that it actually feels Trekish because it's been done, to death, in Trek, before. 

I also have no issues with bottle episodes, which Discovery does very well (already the second time), especially as it allows us to delve into the characters a little more - something that Burnham desperately needs - but relying on a De Integro Machina that is not only too frequent in Trek, but that I was also hoping we'd at least avoid for a time (no pun intended. Actually, yes, pun intended, but it's bad. Heads up...in the past), doesn't get many in the crowd to go anywhere but mild.

As for Mudd, he was entertaining (and props to Rainn Wilson), but he is, like his TOS future-self counterpart, quickly getting old (and by quickly, I mean half an episode ago). Furthermore, the dude is actually quite the danger, getting away with murder, treason and jaywalking, for which he gets a space ticket and is dumped on his in-laws, never to be seen again. Cause, you know, the guy was clearly running on tricks fumes.

So, I'll keep watching, because I love Trek, I want to know where this goes and how much they'll end up meeting up with diverging from TOS.

Because that's the thing: After over a decade without any new Trek on TV (something that has been a weekly happening since my early teenage years), I desperately want to like it, but for now, it's been a lukewarm trip.

And yet:

 

 

 

 

believe.jpg

Edited by Tupperfan

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