Sign in to follow this  
prometheus59650

Episode 1.6 "Lethe" Discussion Thread

Recommended Posts

Corylea   

You guys have already said a lot of the things I was thinking about this episode, but I also have a few thoughts I haven't seen yet.

1.  What the @#$% is Amanda thinking?  I can buy her allowing SPOCK to be raised as a pure Vulcan.  He's half Vulcan already, he's being raised on Vulcan, and it's hard to form an identity as a hybrid unless there are enough other hybrids to form a viable community.  So yeah, if he's the only human-Vulcan hybrid in existence, or if there are only a couple of hundred human-Vulcan hybrids, then he'll probably need to choose.  And since he's living on Vulcan and looks Vulcan, it only makes sense for him to choose to be Vulcan.

But Michael?  Michael is pure human.  At the time she comes to live with Sarek and Amanda, her parents were just murdered.  Let's take a traumatized human orphan and train her that she's not allowed to have any feelings.  Gee, that's a great idea!  What could go wrong, right? :rolleyes:

I realize that Amanda has drunk the Vulcan Kool-aid to some extent, since she tells Kirk in "Journey to Babel" that the Vulcan way is "a better way than ours."  But she also clearly still behaves as a human, herself, and she proclaims at the end of the episode that she's "sick to death of logic," so she's not living as a Vulcan, herself.

What human woman would ask a newly orphaned human child to give up her feelings and behave as a Vulcan, especially when there's a human woman right there to serve as mentor and role model?  I'm afraid this paints a really nasty picture of Amanda!

2.  The first time we see two people in a sexual situation in Discovery, it's a 57-year-old actress and a 54-year-old actor!  (We saw Stanmets and Culber together, but while brushing their teeth together is intimate, it's not sexual.)  American society mostly pretends that women over fifty have no sexuality to speak of, or if they do, it's either laughable or pathetic.  And while -- as Robin Bland has so capably pointed out -- it's both stupid and unethical for any kind of mental health professional to have sex with a client, Cornwell's sexuality isn't played for laughs here, it's treated seriously.  That won't be hailed by the masses in the same way that Stanmets' sexuality was, but it's very nearly as ground-breaking.  I was willing to forgive how stupid and unethical it was for Cornwell to have sex with Lorca, just for that. :)

3.  I thought there were three things I wanted to say when I began this post, but my middle-aged brain seems to have lost one of them.  Oh, well.  I guess I can post again if it comes to me. :P

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, here's the thing... I just watched it again and it's mostly a really good, confident episode. While you're in it, watching it, like Nepr observed, you really get carried along by Cornwell and Lorca, because they're two fabulous actors who really do the material better justice than it deserves. It does bug me that she slept with him, and I do think that part of the ep doesn't quite mesh the way it should, but yeah, Corylea, it is sorta groundbreaking! I love how under-the-radar that is. More of this, please, Discovery.

Most of the dialogue is really slick. The ep as a whole is beautifully edited. However, there's a sense that, in getting from A to C the writers really focused on the Sarek/Michael stuff. The away mission is all great, Isaacs and Brooke really carry the weirdness of those Cornwell/Lorca scenes admirably, but the ending is still, "Wha...?" and I stand by everything me and Prome said earlier.

Corylea, I'm wondering if they have social workers in the 23rd century? Or psychotherapists of any kind? You are absolutely spot on in your observations regarding the wisdom of Sarek and Amanda and how they've supposeldy brought pool Michael up. Now wonder she's messed up.

The other thing that strikes me (again) is how great Tyler is, right off the bat. Please don't let him be a Manchurian Candidate Voq, please, please. Please. (I agree with Sehlat Vie that it's looking highly likely, but am hoping for Nepr's hot pretzel twist and it turns out he isn't.)

...

Small nit: on all the other Trek shows, there was always a background sound of some sort - engine rumble, computer hums, etc. Just some kind of ambient noise to seal the illusion of shipboard life. Why is Discovery so damn quiet?

Edited by Robin Bland

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Corylea said:

2.  The first time we see two people in a sexual situation in Discovery, it's a 57-year-old actress and a 54-year-old actor!  (We saw Stanmets and Culber together, but while brushing their teeth together is intimate, it's not sexual.)  American society mostly pretends that women over fifty have no sexuality to speak of, or if they do, it's either laughable or pathetic.  And while -- as Robin Bland has so capably pointed out -- it's both stupid and unethical for any kind of mental health professional to have sex with a client, Cornwell's sexuality isn't played for laughs here, it's treated seriously.  That won't be hailed by the masses in the same way that Stanmets' sexuality was, but it's very nearly as ground-breaking.  I was willing to forgive how stupid and unethical it was for Cornwell to have sex with Lorca, just for that. :)

^
This.   So very much THIS.

While the fallout from the scene was a weak link for me (the Klingon trap thing... c’mon, Admiral Straw-fer-brains), I loved that it showed two fiftysomethings actually having a sex life!   Wow!  As a 50 year old, it’s nice to see that we’re still considered sexually viable on television SOMEWHERE...;)

8 hours ago, Corylea said:

3.  I thought there were three things I wanted to say when I began this post, but my middle-aged brain seems to have lost one of them.  Oh, well.  I guess I can post again if it comes to me. :P

I was going to agree with you, but I forgot what I was agreeing with...:P

7 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

The other thing that strikes me (again) is how great Tyler is, right off the bat. Please don't let him be a Manchurian Candidate Voq, please, please. Please. (I agree with Sehlat Vie that it's looking highly likely, but am hoping for Nepr's hot pretzel twist and it turns out he isn't.)

The evidence is kinda overwhelming, I’m afraid... either that, or he’s just a super-smart, jack-of-all-trades Mr. Terrific.    With that alternative?  I think I’d rather have him be revealed as a Klingon agent.  :giggle:

7 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

Small nit: on all the other Trek shows, there was always a background sound of some sort - engine rumble, computer hums, etc. Just some kind of ambient noise to seal the illusion of shipboard life. Why is Discovery so damn quiet?

It’s those shock absorbers connecting the outer ring to the hub...make all the difference.  :P

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Sehlat Vie said:

The evidence is kinda overwhelming, I’m afraid... either that, or he’s just a super-smart, jack-of-all-trades Mr. Terrific.    With that alternative?  I think I’d rather have him be revealed as a Klingon agent.  :giggle:

Maybe he’s a figment of Lorca’s imagination. Except now he’s interacted with Burnham and Tilly, so maybe they’re all infected by A space bug that makes them imagine Jack-of-All-Trades super-dudes. BUT HE’S NOT REALLY THERE. Or no, he’s Picard, from the future after his whole “There are four lights” experience, come to help out sufferers of PTSD. 

Seriously, if he is revealed as Voq, how did they expect us not to figure that out? Even if you don’t follow social media and/or critical and fan sites, if this is the case, it’ll turn out to be one of the lamest reveals ever. 

1 hour ago, Sehlat Vie said:

It’s those shock absorbers connecting the outer ring to the hub...make all the difference.  :P

I hate to say this, but that’s actually a pretty good explanation, your :P notwithstanding.

 :thumbup:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Robin Bland said:

Seriously, if he is revealed as Voq, how did they expect us not to figure that out? Even if you don’t follow social media and/or critical and fan sites, if this is the case, it’ll turn out to be one of the lamest reveals ever. 

I’m wondering...

***** POSSIBLE VOQ/ASH SPOILER? ******

 

 

... if Ash/Voq will defect at some point?  Think about it; he was outcast in Klingon society for so long... and the Feds took him in with no questions asked.  In fact, they’re all fawning over him.  I’m wondering if he’s not only taken in (post-reveal), but if Lorca actually helps in keeping his true identity a secret (?).  Frankly, bucking the system is what Lorca does best; he has a soft spot for mutineers/outsiders.  

Why wouldn’t he take in a defecting Klingon who’s had his back?

1 hour ago, Robin Bland said:

I hate to say this, but that’s actually a pretty good explanation, your :P notwithstanding.

 :thumbup:

tumblr_nbykshYi831tv4k5po1_500.gif :giggle:

 

I’d actually be a bit terrified if that was the ‘real’ explanation for the quieter ship’s interiors of Ye Olde Disco...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Corylea   
12 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

Corylea, I'm wondering if they have social workers in the 23rd century? Or psychotherapists of any kind?

Well, Cornwell used to be some kind of psychologist.  I've only seen EP 6 once, and you've seen it twice, so I don't remember exactly what she and Lorca say about her having been a psychologist -- do you remember what they said about that?

In our era, clinical psychologists are trained both in testing/evaluation and in psychotherapy.  (In our era, psychiatrists and social workers are trained to do enough evaluation to diagnose a client, but they aren't trained in psychological testing; that's exclusively the province of psychologists.)  I suppose it's possible that those have split into two by the 23rd century, and Cornwell has only been trained in testing/evaluation, and the psychotherapy branch of the field has been allowed to languish.  But isn't Deanna Troi a psychotherapist in the 24th century?  That would require that they get rid of therapy before the 23rd, then re-invent it by the 24th, which could happen but seems kinda improbable to me.

I'm actually sort of assuming that they develop a really FABULOUS treatment for trauma by the 23rd century, or Jim Kirk should have been gibbering in a corner by the end of the first season alone. :P  Being split into halves by the transporter, having to kill his good friend on Delta Vega, being duplicated as an android by Korby, undergoing Adams' neural neutralizer, having his ship stolen by the one man he thought he could always trust, facing the mass murderer of his youth, being court martialed, nearly being decompressed to death, seeing his brother and sister-in-law die, having to let Edith Keeler die for the greater good ... if they don't have AMAZINGLY EFFECTIVE treatment for trauma, then Jim Kirk isn't actually human. :inlove:

13 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

You are absolutely spot on in your observations regarding the wisdom of Sarek and Amanda and how they've supposedly brought poor Michael up. Now wonder she's messed up.

I don't think it takes any kind of mental health professional to think that training an orphan to stifle her emotions right after both her parents were murdered is a bad idea.  Sarek is so gung-ho Vulcan repression that I don't really expect him to think of this, which is why I'm blaming Amanda -- SHE should know better.  Sheesh.

13 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

The other thing that strikes me (again) is how great Tyler is, right off the bat. Please don't let him be a Manchurian Candidate Voq, please, please. Please. (I agree with Sehlat Vie that it's looking highly likely, but am hoping for Nepr's hot pretzel twist and it turns out he isn't.)

It's so obvious that I really hope the writers have something else up their sleeve.  Maybe Tyler and Lorca are BOTH Klingons in disguise, and the real Lorca is still on the Klingon prison ship.  Maybe (now fake) Lorca is Voq, and Tyler's just a really great guy.  I dunno, but like you, I'm really hoping that the big revelation isn't that Tyler is Voq.  The twist with Sarek in the most recent episode was cool enough that I'm cautiously hopeful about the whole Tyler thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Locutus   

In general, I liked this episode.  I thought all the minmeld drama payed off with the sad reveal about Sarek and tied well back to the Vulcan terrorist at the beginning.  It made sense that his mind would go there.  I also loved how Ash reframed her interpretation of what she was seeing.  We picture those we LOVE at death.  If he does turn out to be a Klingon operative, he seems oh too human at this point.  I kind of hope it is a red herring!  The Tilly scenes added to the humanity as well.  

Anyone else think Burnham runs weird?  Her steps were so precise and rhythmic and she was so focused on the corridor.  Maybe it fits with her Vulcan mindset though.  It gave off an air of precision, determination, and confidence maybe, although it looked a little unnatural ...

Anyways, my partner scoffed a bit at the Lorca/Cornwell scenes.  It kind of took me out of the story a bit too.  Are we to believe that, while three of his crewman are risking their lives on a dangerous flight through a nebula, the Captain would sit down with the Admiral for a drink?!  Even worse, they have sex, plus a nap!  Come on!!  It didn’t fit the otherwise urgent nature of the rescue mission.  I guess it’s good to be the Captain ...

Kirk's+boots.jpg

;-)

 

Honestly though, Capt. Picard or Kirk would be on the bridge monitoring every second of the situation!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Corylea   
4 minutes ago, Locutus said:

Anyways, my partner scoffed a bit at the Lorca/Cornwell scenes.  It kind of took me out of the story a bit too.  Are we to believe that, while three of his crewman are risking their lives on a dangerous flight through a nebula, the Captain would sit down with the Admiral for a drink?!  Even worse, they have sex, plus a nap!  Come on!!  It didn’t fit the otherwise urgent nature of the rescue mission.  I guess it’s good to be the Captain ...

Honestly though, Capt. Picard or Kirk would be on the bridge monitoring every second of the situation!

I think Kirk or Picard would be monitoring what they saw as the greatest threat, and that's exactly what Lorca did.  I believe he saw Cornwell as a threat to his captaincy -- rightly so -- and he did whatever was necessary to disarm her and get her to sympathize with him.  When that wasn't enough to keep his captaincy safe, he knowingly sent her off to be captured by Klingons.

Lorca wasn't relaxing and goofing off with Cornwell; he was attending to what he perceived to be the greatest threat.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Locutus   
19 minutes ago, Corylea said:

 

It's so obvious that I really hope the writers have something else up their sleeve.  Maybe Tyler and Lorca are BOTH Klingons in disguise, and the real Lorca is still on the Klingon prison ship.  Maybe (now fake) Lorca is Voq, and Tyler's just a really great guy.  I dunno, but like you, I'm really hoping that the big revelation isn't that Tyler is Voq.  The twist with Sarek in the most recent episode was cool enough that I'm cautiously hopeful about the whole Tyler thing.

Yeah, I am hopeful about Tyler too.  I really think something must have happened to Lorca more than bright shiny lights in his eyes on that Klingon ship.  Maybe the triangular scar is revealing of that?  He did not look very worse for the wear after that scene.  He looked almost ... too good if you know what I mean.  I like to think that is more of a clue than an oversight.

7 minutes ago, Corylea said:

I think Kirk or Picard would be monitoring what they saw as the greatest threat, and that's exactly what Lorca did.  I believe he saw Cornwell as a threat to his captaincy -- rightly so -- and he did whatever was necessary to disarm her and get her to sympathize with him.  When that wasn't enough to keep his captaincy safe, he knowingly sent her off to be captured by Klingons.

Lorca wasn't relaxing and goofing off with Cornwell; he was attending to what he perceived to be the greatest threat.

 

That’s a very good point.  Or, at least, it fits Lorca’s character.  I really don’t see Jean-Luc behaving this way. I guess I am still pretty incredulous about the Admiral, however.  That SHE would do that.  Maybe she thought loosening him up would get better at the truth.  I can’t believe she just couldn’t contain her desire for him.

Edited by Locutus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Locutus said:

Anyways, my partner scoffed a bit at the Lorca/Cornwell scenes.  It kind of took me out of the story a bit too.  Are we to believe that, while three of his crewman are risking their lives on a dangerous flight through a nebula, the Captain would sit down with the Admiral for a drink?!  Even worse, they have sex, plus a nap!  Come on!!  It didn’t fit the otherwise urgent nature of the rescue mission.  I guess it’s good to be the Captain ...

 

Yes, you sure are. And it makes perfect sense.

It absolutely fits when you know that Lorca knows precisely why Cornwell is there. He knows she didn't take a ship to meet him directly just to shoot the breeze and reconnect with her pal. She has concerns, has had them, and if she brought herself to him Lorca knows she's ready and able to take the ship from him.

Discovery is stuck outside the nebula, and there's nothing Lorca can do about it anyway. They'll come back with Sarek or they won't. Lorca has never seemed the type to sit idle and hand-wring about that which he has no control.

Cornwell is/was the immediate threat. So he takes her and they reminisce, and he beds her, for precisely the reason she calls him out on: "to get me to back off."

Lorca is nothing like the captains that have been part of this franchise before.

 

54 minutes ago, Locutus said:

That’s a very good point.  Or, at least, it fits Lorca’s character.  I really don’t see Jean-Luc behaving this way. I guess I am still pretty incredulous about the Admiral, however.  That SHE would do that.  Maybe she thought loosening him up would get better at the truth.  I can’t believe she just couldn’t contain her desire for him.

She wasn't wrong though.

He never would have revealed to her the razor's edge he was on without those unguarded moments. So I think they were gaming one another, Lorca's just better at it.

Edited by prometheus59650

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Corylea said:

Well, Cornwell used to be some kind of psychologist.  I've only seen EP 6 once, and you've seen it twice, so I don't remember exactly what she and Lorca say about her having been a psychologist -- do you remember what they said about that?

They're actually pretty vague about it - she says she's read all his "psych eval" reports and states that he's lied throughout the questioning, but in an earlier episode it's stated she has some kind of training in psychology. The scene where Cornwell's bearing down on Lorca is pretty convincing, in large part because of how these two fine actors play it. On second viewing, because I knew it was coming, I could buy her sleeping with him more easily, because she knows him; she probably knows he's manipulative and knows full well if she's going to get any kind of truth she has to get in close. She's matching him for moves in terms of manipulative behavior. She also has dialogue that states that he's pulled the wool over every other admiral's eyes, just not hers - so she too is acting alone. They seem pretty well matched. 

But even though that worked better second time around, you still have to question why she doesn't send word of her findings back to someone trusted at Starfleet before setting off for the Klingon meeting. She literally just walks into the trap, at Lorca's suggestion. Didn't she want to make a coded log report and alert anyone back at a Starbase of her suspicions as to Lorca's mental health? When you think about it, no, because "I slept with the subject and he drew a phaser on me." Oh. Well, this all looks good to Starfleet senior staff, doesn't it?

Lorca's actually kind of brilliant, because once she's captured, he then plays it by the book - asking Starfleet for orders (via Saru, whose confusion is superb) instead of charging in and rescuing as he might usually. In a way, he's doing as she asked, but too late (for her) and serving himself by looking good to Base Command on this occasion. Essentially, none of this bodes well for poor old Cornwell. Which is a shame, as I really like that character!

 

3 hours ago, Corylea said:

 

I suppose it's possible that those have split into two by the 23rd century, and Cornwell has only been trained in testing/evaluation, and the psychotherapy branch of the field has been allowed to languish.  But isn't Deanna Troi a psychotherapist in the 24th century?  That would require that they get rid of therapy before the 23rd, then re-invent it by the 24th, which could happen but seems kinda improbable to me.

Deanna is indeed a psychotherapist IIRC. I agree, it seems improbable. I just think it's one of those areas of learning that's always portrayed badly on TV and sadly, Discovery didn't do any better than usual.

And, although it was indeed great to see characters of over 50 on TV "fully finctional" so to speak, I wish it was possible to portray male/female friendships as a thing that doesn't automatically mean they've had a relationship in the past. Nor that a sexual tension must always exist between opposite-gendered senior/junior roles, because it so often seem to play out that way. (Then again, what if they'd cast Cornwell as male? That would've been interesting.) I guess this was the sort of thing we were supposed to move past by the 23rd century, but it looks like we all will still think with our sexual organs. hey, Kirk did, often enough.

3 hours ago, Corylea said:

I'm actually sort of assuming that they develop a really FABULOUS treatment for trauma by the 23rd century, or Jim Kirk should have been gibbering in a corner by the end of the first season alone. :P  Being split into halves by the transporter, having to kill his good friend on Delta Vega, being duplicated as an android by Korby, undergoing Adams' neural neutralizer, having his ship stolen by the one man he thought he could always trust, facing the mass murderer of his youth, being court martialed, nearly being decompressed to death, seeing his brother and sister-in-law die, having to let Edith Keeler die for the greater good ... if they don't have AMAZINGLY EFFECTIVE treatment for trauma, then Jim Kirk isn't actually human. :inlove:

Ha! Now we're exploring the stylistic differences in old episodic TV and the modern psychological complexity of Discovery!

I know you don't know TNG as well, but I think Picard would've been a basket case after Best of Both Worlds when he was assimilated by the Borg. TNG dared to go a little further than most shows back then by investigating that for one further episode, then it mostly got dropped. He lived a whole life and grew old in The Inner Light - from which ensued his ability to play the flute later down the line. Yup, that's all we ever really saw. Sisko, Janeway, Archer - not to mention their bridge crews - all go through adventures in single episodes that would last most people for one lifetime.

It's always going to be a problem the more complexity we as a culture give these kinds of genre shows - that everyone isn't suffering from PTSD or some other mental fatigue means there has to be some kind of treatment like the one you theorize! (I hope they invent that soon.) But then, that is what suspension of disbelief is for. We're just always testing its ever-growing boundaries (which is why we're all here, I s'pose.) :)

3 hours ago, Corylea said:

I don't think it takes any kind of mental health professional to think that training an orphan to stifle her emotions right after both her parents were murdered is a bad idea.  Sarek is so gung-ho Vulcan repression that I don't really expect him to think of this, which is why I'm blaming Amanda -- SHE should know better.  Sheesh.

I suppose I was asking, in a broader sense, wasn't there any other human around, any representative of Earth's government who came to assess the situation and take Michael home, or make sure that Sarek and Amanda weren't going to inflict any psychological damage on this already traumatized human child? Is the Federation so "frontier mentality" that this kind of thing gets overlooked? Seems unlikely. The whole scenario seems unlikely, but maybe Michael didn't choose the Vulcan path until she was older. There's always a way of

3 hours ago, Corylea said:

It's so obvious that I really hope the writers have something else up their sleeve.  Maybe Tyler and Lorca are BOTH Klingons in disguise, and the real Lorca is still on the Klingon prison ship.  Maybe (now fake) Lorca is Voq, and Tyler's just a really great guy.  I dunno, but like you, I'm really hoping that the big revelation isn't that Tyler is Voq.  The twist with Sarek in the most recent episode was cool enough that I'm cautiously hopeful about the whole Tyler thing.

Lorca is definitely never quite what he seems, and yeah, he could be a Klingon. Tyler's easy charm and the way he looks after Michael at the end of the episode is highly endearing. And i really think this incarnation of Star trek could use more of that, so I hope he sticks around and this kindness and care for a fellow sentient being isn't a transient thing.

(I really like Shazad Latif anyway, he's been a stalwart on a lot of British TV for some years now, so seeing him on Trek feels like a huge boon to me. Google a character he played called "Clem Fandango" and you may begin to glean why he's so hugely liked by a lot of UK viewers.)

This works:

 

6 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

I’m wondering...

***** POSSIBLE VOQ/ASH SPOILER? ******

 

 

... if Ash/Voq will defect at some point?  Think about it; he was outcast in Klingon society for so long... and the Feds took him in with no questions asked.  In fact, they’re all fawning over him.  I’m wondering if he’s not only taken in (post-reveal), but if Lorca actually helps in keeping his true identity a secret (?).  Frankly, bucking the system is what Lorca does best; he has a soft spot for mutineers/outsiders.  

Why wouldn’t he take in a defecting Klingon who’s had his back?

 

 

Seems like what Lorca would do!

3 hours ago, Locutus said:

 

Anyone else think Burnham runs weird?  Her steps were so precise and rhythmic and she was so focused on the corridor.  Maybe it fits with her Vulcan mindset though.  It gave off an air of precision, determination, and confidence maybe, although it looked a little unnatural ...

 

Damn yes! She bounces. Sort of daintily. It's almost effete. "Ballet jogging." 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Corylea   
2 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

On second viewing, because I knew it was coming, I could buy her sleeping with him more easily, because she knows him; she probably knows he's manipulative and knows full well if she's going to get any kind of truth she has to get in close. She's matching him for moves in terms of manipulative behavior. She also has dialogue that states that he's pulled the wool over every other admiral's eyes, just not hers - so she too is acting alone. They seem pretty well matched.

That's a good point.  She knows him well, so she knows just talking with him won't get him to reveal anything.

 

2 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

you still have to question why she doesn't send word of her findings back to someone trusted at Starfleet before setting off for the Klingon meeting. She literally just walks into the trap, at Lorca's suggestion. Didn't she want to make a coded log report and alert anyone back at a Starbase of her suspicions as to Lorca's mental health? When you think about it, no, because "I slept with the subject and he drew a phaser on me." Oh. Well, this all looks good to Starfleet senior staff, doesn't it?

It's possible that she DID sent a report back to Starfleet Command, but it will take awhile to get back to headquarters.  We could very well have the fallout from her visit in the next episode or the one after that.  Hmm.  We're getting a chapter break in a couple of weeks; that could be a cliffhanger right about then -- Lorca is removed from command; come back in January to find out more. 

In TOS, they were far enough away that it often took weeks for them to hear back from Starfleet Command about something, whereas in Disco, they seem to have instantaneous communication to everywhere.  So I'm not sure I understand what the limitations are in Disco, but presumably there are some; drama works better that way.

 

2 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

And, although it was indeed great to see characters of over 50 on TV "fully finctional" so to speak, I wish it was possible to portray male/female friendships as a thing that doesn't automatically mean they've had a relationship in the past. Nor that a sexual tension must always exist between opposite-gendered senior/junior roles, because it so often seem to play out that way.

I agree!  Anytime two people seem to care about one another, the fandom shouts, "I ship them!"  And yeah, that can be fun and all, but I think it's actually a bad idea for people to believe that only romantic love is real or that only sexual love is important.  Sure, sex and romance are lovely, and I hope everyone who wants a romantic relationship has one.  But other kinds of love are also valid and important, and one can love a person without necessarily wanting to get into their pants. :rolleyes:  I think our society could use more examples of fraternal love.

 

2 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

guess this was the sort of thing we were supposed to move past by the 23rd century, but it looks like we all will still think with our sexual organs. hey, Kirk did, often enough.

Most of the time that we saw Kirk kissing some woman he just met five minutes ago, he was kissing her for mission-related reasons -- to distract the woman, to secure her help, to gain more information about the situation, to stall for time, and so on.  Kirk's charisma is evidently quite a serious weapon. :P  And sometimes (as with Deela, Nona, Helen, and Elaan), he was drugged or forced. 

If you go through all 79 episodes and count up the number of women that Kirk kisses willingly AND for non-mission-related reasons, there are actually only FIVE: Areel Shaw, Ruth, Edith Keeler, Miramanee, and Rayna.  Considering that he'd lost his memory when he was with Miramanee and that Ruth was an amusement-park android, it's not clear that either of them should really count ... which reduces the total to three.  Not a whole lot for a thirty-four-year-old man over the course of three years!  But then starship captains are busy folks. ;)

 

2 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

Ha! Now we're exploring the stylistic differences in old episodic TV and the modern psychological complexity of Discovery!

Yes, I was mostly teasing about how Kirk should have been a basket case; I know the characters were essentially reset to baseline at the beginning of every episode.  But it can be interesting to think about just how MUCH those people went through.  A lot of folks think theirs would be a wonderful life, but would it really? 

 

2 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

I suppose I was asking, in a broader sense, wasn't there any other human around, any representative of Earth's government who came to assess the situation and take Michael home, or make sure that Sarek and Amanda weren't going to inflict any psychological damage on this already traumatized human child? Is the Federation so "frontier mentality" that this kind of thing gets overlooked? Seems unlikely.

I was assuming that Michael's parents left a will in which they designated Sarek and Amanda as Michael's guardians if they themselves were killed.  Parents of young children can do that, at least in the present day, and it doesn't usually require a whole lot of evaluation for the parents' will to be carried out.  Michael's parents probably didn't expect to be murdered, after all, and they may have thought that people who chose to be in a mixed human-Vulcan marriage would treat Michael as a human and not as a Vulcan.  I dunno why Amanda is just rolling over and letting Sarek do whatever he wants; maybe we'll get more on that in a future episode.

 

2 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

maybe Michael didn't choose the Vulcan path until she was older.

That's possible, but I'd think it would take quite a long time to train a child who's lived for several years as a human to behave as a Vulcan.  Try behaving as a Vulcan for the next week and see how easy it is. :P  I imagine it would take her entire childhood to turn her into a good little Vulcan, given that she wasn't trained that way from birth.

 

2 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

Tyler's easy charm and the way he looks after Michael at the end of the episode is highly endearing. And i really think this incarnation of Star trek could use more of that, so I hope he sticks around and this kindness and care for a fellow sentient being isn't a transient thing.

I agree SO much!  If Tyler turns out to be a Klingon in disguise, he's WAY too good at acting like a human for someone who just learned how.  I'd much rather he turn out to be just a nice guy.

 

2 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

(I really like Shazad Latif anyway, he's been a stalwart on a lot of British TV for some years now, so seeing him on Trek feels like a huge boon to me. Google a character he played called "Clem Fandango" and you may begin to glean why he's so hugely liked by a lot of UK viewers.)

I've seen pretty much nothing, because of living in a TV-free household for a couple of decades, but I already like Shazad Latif, just in what I've seen so far, so I hope they don't squander his likeability by throwing him away.

 

8 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

.. if Ash/Voq will defect at some point?  Think about it; he was outcast in Klingon society for so long... and the Feds took him in with no questions asked.  In fact, they’re all fawning over him.  I’m wondering if he’s not only taken in (post-reveal), but if Lorca actually helps in keeping his true identity a secret (?).  Frankly, bucking the system is what Lorca does best; he has a soft spot for mutineers/outsiders.  

Why wouldn’t he take in a defecting Klingon who’s had his back?

That's a great idea, Sehlat!  It seems like it would take a lot of the steam out of the whole Klingon war thread, though.  All this build up, just to get a defector aboard the ship?  But I guess it could work if it was written properly.  Actually, I sorta want to go write it myself now. :laugh:

 

2 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

Damn yes! She bounces. Sort of daintily. It's almost effete. "Ballet jogging." 

"Ballet jogging" is a great phrase!  You win the internet for today. :thumbsup2:

I saw an interview with Zachary Quinto around the time of Into Darkness where he said that he was required to have a running coach to film the scene where he chases John Harrison down, and he said, "Hey, I've been running since I was little; I don't need to be TAUGHT how to run!"  So they filmed a sample of him running and played it back for him, and he said, "Okay, bring on the coach."  Evidently most people kind of flap around when they run, and while this is perfectly normal, it looks crappy on camera.  So there are people who teach actors how to run with no extraneous motion for the camera.  I'm guessing Sonequa Martin-Green has been severely coached. ;)

 

 

Edited by Corylea

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/27/2017 at 7:26 PM, Corylea said:

That's a good point.  She knows him well, so she knows just talking with him won't get him to reveal anything.

Thinking on that, it makes more sense of subsequent viewings. I still think she was nuts to sleep with him but that’s the way the story went. I really like Cornwell as a character, and I hope we haven’t seen the last of her. 

On 10/27/2017 at 7:26 PM, Corylea said:

It's possible that she DID sent a report back to Starfleet Command, but it will take awhile to get back to headquarters.  We could very well have the fallout from her visit in the next episode or the one after that.  Hmm.  We're getting a chapter break in a couple of weeks; that could be a cliffhanger right about then -- Lorca is removed from command; come back in January to find out more. 

Liking this theory, and hoping it’s correct! 

On 10/27/2017 at 7:26 PM, Corylea said:

In TOS, they were far enough away that it often took weeks for them to hear back from Starfleet Command about something, whereas in Disco, they seem to have instantaneous communication to everywhere.  So I'm not sure I understand what the limitations are in Disco, but presumably there are some; drama works better that way.

TOS played fast and loose with comms also. Sometimes they seemed to be so far from any Starfleet outpost they were on their own, other times not so much. I think you’re right, it depends entirely on dramatic necessity. 

On 10/27/2017 at 7:26 PM, Corylea said:

I agree!  Anytime two people seem to care about one another, the fandom shouts, "I ship them!"  And yeah, that can be fun and all, but I think it's actually a bad idea for people to believe that only romantic love is real or that only sexual love is important.  Sure, sex and romance are lovely, and I hope everyone who wants a romantic relationship has one.  But other kinds of love are also valid and important, and one can love a person without necessarily wanting to get into their pants. :rolleyes:  I think our society could use more examples of fraternal love.

Trek usually did pretty well here. I hope Discovery will develop in a similar way. 

On 10/27/2017 at 7:26 PM, Corylea said:

Most of the time that we saw Kirk kissing some woman he just met five minutes ago, he was kissing her for mission-related reasons -- to distract the woman, to secure her help, to gain more information about the situation, to stall for time, and so on.  Kirk's charisma is evidently quite a serious weapon. :P  And sometimes (as with Deela, Nona, Helen, and Elaan), he was drugged or forced. 

If you go through all 79 episodes and count up the number of women that Kirk kisses willingly AND for non-mission-related reasons, there are actually only FIVE: Areel Shaw, Ruth, Edith Keeler, Miramanee, and Rayna.  Considering that he'd lost his memory when he was with Miramanee and that Ruth was an amusement-park android, it's not clear that either of them should really count ... which reduces the total to three.  Not a whole lot for a thirty-four-year-old man over the course of three years!  But then starship captains are busy folks. ;)

“It’s the custom of my people to help one another when they’re in trouble,” says Kirk to Shahna in The Gamesters of Triskelion before kissing her. But, Ha! You called me out on a somewhat glib piece of cultural shorthand that I don’t actually believe. While I don’t buy into the received idea of Kirk as a slut, I do think he enjoyed kissing and I agree, he certainly enjoyed the power of his own charisma field, projected unremittingly on a day-to-day basis. Let me pitch that another way - I think Shatner enjoyed portraying Kirk as leader and the “ladies’ man” aspect to that automatically followed (which sometimes blurs the brilliance of some of his performances). As for Kirk the character, I think Miramanee absolutely did count. Memory or no memory, the instance of emotion in the moment - is that not a kind of truth? Not to quibble over his instances of true love, but there are many sides to multifaceted Kirk and I would contend his true loyalty was to his ship more than any other female. I think he - and the other TOS characters - are a big reason Trek endured for 50 years. They really do have an incredible depth to them that enables all these readings, and much of that is in the performances. That’s the way (good) episodic TV of old circumnavigated the more direct, serialized character development we mostly see today. 

On 10/27/2017 at 7:26 PM, Corylea said:

Yes, I was mostly teasing about how Kirk should have been a basket case; I know the characters were essentially reset to baseline at the beginning of every episode.  But it can be interesting to think about just how MUCH those people went through.  A lot of folks think theirs would be a wonderful life, but would it really? 

This is what we’re up against when discussing these old episodes with the different styles of TV storytelling we’ve had since! 

On 10/27/2017 at 7:26 PM, Corylea said:

I was assuming that Michael's parents left a will in which they designated Sarek and Amanda as Michael's guardians if they themselves were killed.  Parents of young children can do that, at least in the present day, and it doesn't usually require a whole lot of evaluation for the parents' will to be carried out.  Michael's parents probably didn't expect to be murdered, after all, and they may have thought that people who chose to be in a mixed human-Vulcan marriage would treat Michael as a human and not as a Vulcan.  I dunno why Amanda is just rolling over and letting Sarek do whatever he wants; maybe we'll get more on that in a future episode.

 

That's possible, but I'd think it would take quite a long time to train a child who's lived for several years as a human to behave as a Vulcan.  Try behaving as a Vulcan for the next week and see how easy it is. :P  I imagine it would take her entire childhood to turn her into a good little Vulcan, given that she wasn't trained that way from birth.

I guess we may find out more about her background in future episodes, and maybe some of these questions will have more light shed upon them. 

On 10/27/2017 at 7:26 PM, Corylea said:

I agree SO much!  If Tyler turns out to be a Klingon in disguise, he's WAY too good at acting like a human for someone who just learned how.  I'd much rather he turn out to be just a nice guy.

I’m kind of in a halfway house now. Vie’s points about that theory hold a lot of water. I don’t want them to be right simply because I really like both actor and character and want him to remain on the show! And, dammit, that’s what I really want from Star Trek, as well as the high concept SF. I want characters like that, ones I genuinely care about. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

I’m kind of in a halfway house now. Vie’s points about that theory hold a lot of water. I don’t want them to be right simply because I really like both actor and character and want him to remain on the show!

^
Even if Tyler IS a Klingon (as I believe), he could still stay on the show; he could adopt the human way of life and renounce his Klingon heritage.  It’s entirely possible, especially if he was the albino Voq (who was already from an undesirable caste in his society).   Why wouldn’t he want to stay in a group where he was instantly loved and accepted?   And I suspect that given Lorca’s soft spot for rebels, he might still take him in.    Tyler’s true heritage could even be their ‘little secret’ that no one else (save for Lorca’s tribble) knows.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

^
Even if Tyler IS a Klingon (as I believe), he could still stay on the show; he could adopt the human way of life and renounce his Klingon heritage.  It’s entirely possible, especially if he was the albino Voq (who was already from an undesirable caste in his society).   Why wouldn’t he want to stay in a group where he was instantly loved and accepted?   And I suspect that given Lorca’s soft spot for rebels, he might still take him in.    Tyler’s true heritage could even be their ‘little secret’ that no one else (save for Lorca’s tribble) knows.

Here's hoping!

If I'm honest, i think Discovery has got kind of a dead spot at its center, and that's Burnham. We've taken an achingly long time to get to know her and... she's kind of dull. (No fault of Sonequa Martin-Green, it's how she's written.) But the rest of the crew - Stamets, Tilly, Tyler, Saru, Lorca and Culber are all really genuinely engaging. Even many of the supporting characters like Lts. Airiam, Owosekun and Keyla Detmer are intriguing. I'd love to know more about them. So I'm hoping they don't kill off any of the potential all of these characters have and that they warm Burnham up some more. (On the strength of Ep 7, they will.) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Im a week behind. We just watched this one. 

Every episode has presented us with characters who make a drastic decision that we can debate over. Sarek and Lorca do that here. I loved the Sarek story--it's the reason you do prequels. If your not savvy or ballsy enough to do this kind of thing, then don't waste time writing a prequel. I feel like after Discovery's run we will be able to rewatch TOS and see it almost with fresh eyes like a new show. DSC is not rewriting canon, just adding so much context to give more meaning to the old stories. For instance, I happened to watch Arena last week. Kirk's actions in that episode, which may seem a bit out of character, make perfect sense if you imagine he is thinking that the Gorn incursion is a repeat of the Battle of the Binary Stars. He makes the same call Burnham does, except since he's captain he does not have to mutiny. I got chills when I realized this.

For this reason, I have no problem imagining DSC in the same universe as all the other shows. A lot of the layers the writers are laying down in this series will not reach a person who watches DSC imagining it happening in a canonical vacuum. And that fan's head canon will be a less interesting place than if they accept DSC as canon. Oh Im guilty of the same because I used to pretend ENT did not exist. But to miss the opportunity to have DSC characters and themes exist along side previously beloved Trek characters and stories becasue... the Klingon ships look too different... That's not worth it for me. Screw the look of the ships. I can rationalize that in my head canon pretty easily. Same with the holodeck. It was basically just VR. The holodeck Riker walked into was a full immersion experience, a natural forest with all the sensations of being in an actual forest. I can buy that tech is more advanced than the we saw in DSC.

As for Lorca, he's now a fully tragic character. You feel for him. He's broken and desperate. He shows real vulnerability with Cornwall, admitting that his ship is all he has left. I really hope he does not get killed off by the end of the season as some have guessed. I actually don't think he will be. 

Burnham is the heart of the series. I know some just don't get her, but I thought her character work in this ep was amazing.     

         

Edited by Justin Snead

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Justin Snead said:

Im a week behind. We just watched this one. 

Every episode has presented us with characters who make a drastic decision that we can debate over. Sarek and Lorca do that here. I loved the Sarek story--it's the reason you do prequels. If your not savvy or ballsy enough to do this kind of thing, then don't waste time writing a prequel. I feel like after Discovery's run we will be able to rewatch TOS and see it almost with fresh eyes like a new show. DSC is not rewriting canon, just adding so much context to give more meaning to the old stories. For instance, I happened to watch Arena last week. Kirk's actions in that episode, which may seem a bit out of character, make perfect sense if you imagine he is thinking that the Gorn incursion is a repeat of the Battle of the Binary Stars. He makes the same call Burnham does, except since he's captain he does not have to mutiny. I got chills when I realized this.

For this reason, I have no problem imagining DSC in the same universe as all the other shows. A lot of the layers the writers are laying down in this series will not reach a person who watches DSC imagining it happening in a canonical vacuum. And that fan's head canon will be a less interesting place than if they accept DSC as canon. Oh Im guilty of the same because I used to pretend ENT did not exist. But to miss the opportunity to have DSC characters and themes exist along side previously beloved Trek characters and stories becasue... the Klingon ships look too different... That's not worth it for me. Screw the look of the ships. I can rationalize that in my head canon pretty easily. Same with the holodeck. It was basically just VR. The holodeck Riker walked into was a full immersion experience, a natural forest with all the sensations of being in an actual forest. I can buy that tech is more advanced than the we saw in DSC.

As for Lorca, he's now a fully tragic character. You feel for him. He's broken and desperate. He shows real vulnerability with Cornwall, admitting that his ship is all he has left. I really hope he does not get killed off by the end of the season as some have guessed. I actually don't think he will be. 

Burnham is the heart of the series. I know some just don't get her, but I thought her character work in this ep was amazing.     

         

Always interested to hear your comments, Justin. 

Stylistically, Discovery is a departure from earlier Treks, definitely. In time, it’ll be easier for fans (including old farts like myself) to integrate it into their overall sense of the fictional universe, I’m sure. It’s just getting used to it. More than anything, I’m more interested in what makes the show work in its own right, as its own entity, so whenever it distinguishes itself in that regard and makes a positive feature of its setting (and timing) as this episode did, I’m all for it. 

That said, given a couple of weeks’ retrospect, I think I liked Lethe (and talking about it) more than any other episode so far. I do like the deeper character work the writers are attempting to do on this show. It’s not that I don’t get Burnham - I appreciate all the work that’s gone into her backstory - I just want to be able to sympathize with her more, as I did Spock. (You know, by now, how much I adore Spock, which I’ve done since I was very small kid.) All the other characters on DISCO, even Lorca, have a more-or-less instantaneous identifiable quality to them, and I’m constantly being told by the showrunners how Burnham is the center of this show, but she doesn’t quite feel like the emotional heart of it yet. Not to me. That honor goes to Tilly, Stamets or Saru. Ash is already hugely engaging, as is Dr. Culber. But this might well be a function of the writing and the serialized format as they warm her up. She feels like a space waiting to be fully filled, and that actually is a hard silhouette to make function in episodic TV. Tip of the hat to them for trying it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

That said, given a couple of weeks’ retrospect, I think I liked Lethe (and talking about it) more than any other episode so far. I do like the deeper character work the writers are attempting to do on this show. It’s not that I don’t get Burnham - I appreciate all the work that’s gone into her backstory - I just want to be able to sympathize with her more, as I did Spock. (You know, by now, how much I adore Spock, which I’ve done since I was very small kid.) All the other characters on DISCO, even Lorca, have a more-or-less instantaneous identifiable quality to them, and I’m constantly being told by the showrunners how Burnham is the center of this show, but she doesn’t quite feel like the emotional heart of it yet. Not to me. That honor goes to Tilly, Stamets or Saru. Ash is already hugely engaging, as is Dr. Culber. But this might well be a function of the writing and the serialized format as they warm her up. She feels like a space waiting to be fully filled, and that actually is a hard silhouette to make function in episodic TV. Tip of the hat to them for trying it. 

Pretty much this.

And yes, if I had to pick a favorite so far, it’d probably be “Lethe” as well (Vulcans...their suppression of emotion may be ‘illogical’ but I still love ‘em :happy:).

I’m still sticking with Burnham because I recognize that she is a work in progress; a person on the road to redemption.   But the other characters (particularly Stamets, Lorca & Tilly) are in serious danger of overshadowing her.   When I saw the first two episodes, I immediately assumed that Doug Jones’ Saru would be the “Data” of this show, but I’m now thinking I was wrong. That’s not a jab at Doug Jones (who does an amazing job) but rather to the writers; Saru has had very little to do, of late.    Here’s hoping that’s rectified soon.  He’s too brilliant an actor (and interesting a character) to fall by the wayside.

And the issue of Burnham remaining the show’s focal point also seems to be more about the writers than the actress; they seem to be struggling with keeping their central focus in focus. 

32 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

You know, by now, how much I adore Spock, which I’ve done since I was very small kid

Spock has been, and always shall be, my favorite character of the entire franchise.  

I related to his inner turmoil SO MUCH when I was a kid.  And whenever I was teased in school for being a chubby nerd, I would quietly hold it inside and think to myself, “How would Spock handle this?”   It may seem odd to use a fictional character as a genuine role model, but he was mine.   His use of logical/restraint over emotional, reactionist-thinking saved the day for me more times than I can count; it still does, sometimes.   

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

That’s not a jab at Doug Jones (who does an amazing job) but rather to the writers; Saru has had very little to do, of late.    Here’s hoping that’s rectified soon.  He’s too brilliant an actor (and interesting a character) to fall by the wayside.

 

It's looking like he has more to do this week.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

And the issue of Burnham remaining the show’s focal point also seems to be more about the writers than the actress; they seem to be struggling with keeping their central focus in focus. 

Exactly this. 

2 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Spock has been, and always shall be, my favorite character of the entire franchise.  

Do I need to reiterate same? :) 

6 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

It's looking like he has more to do this week.

Hope so - really liking this character so far. Looking forward to seeing them all on an away mission to a planet at last. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

I related to his inner turmoil SO MUCH when I was a kid.  And whenever I was teased in school for being a chubby nerd, I would quietly hold it inside and think to myself, “How would Spock handle this?”   It may seem odd to use a fictional character as a genuine role model, but he was mine.   His use of logical/restraint over emotional, reactionist-thinking saved the day for me more times than I can count; it still does, sometimes.   

Honestly, I used Kirk and Spock, and McCoy. Spock took his teasing and moved beyond it, (though I admit to amused satisfaction as Spock in '09 decided he'd had enough...coupled with the unabashed shock on the faces of his tormentors)

Kirk- Be just. Be honorable. Be ready to fight for what you believe in because there are always people out there that will test you.

McCoy- Be passionate in what you believe in and what you love. Don't compromise your morals.

The three of them together made the perfect human being.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this