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prometheus59650

Episode 1.6 "Lethe" Discussion Thread

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29 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

Honestly, this is basically where I am. There's TOS....

...There's TNG, DS9, and VOY, which reference each other, but, in more than one instance, contradict TOS.

This feels like something else.

Vie’s headcanon rejigging Enterprise as a new timeline that came to be after the events of First Contact always worked for me with TOS and the later shows, but I’m not sure how Disco will fit. 

I’m really curious to know if this show will just pan out slightly differently than we think. So it worked - they got me. 

29 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

Very true. "I cared a great deal about Burnam and screwed her over for you, and then you screw me?

And, with Burnam, I really think this is was a watershed episode for her development. You're absolutely right that she's been caught between two cultures, but it feels like, with, and after Sarek, it feels like she let go of a lot of that.

I love Tilly. I love her because she's warm and funny, and she's not just the sum of her quirks. I mean, she's awkward and all, but, when it comes down to it, she knows her business, knows who she is and what she wants. If she were just this barely together creature, she'd hang on every word Burnam said. But Burnam tells her that she gave Tilly bad advice and make her own plan and "I already have."

Stamets? Ash? Tilly? They all sooo work.

  

What always made Star Trek work, over and above all other considerations, were the characters. I think they’re doing really well with that so far. I love your description of Tilly. They better not kill her. 

5 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

To be honest I'm not really sorry that she did... #TeamLorca :angel_not:

:laugh:

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6 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

Ooooh, that’s really not good. 

Haha! This 

I dunno - I think it was one of those “lies of omission.” But Cornwell just walked right into it. 

 

3 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

To be honest I'm not really sorry that she did... #TeamLorca :angel_not:

This is one of the plot contrivances that annoys me anywhere I see it. Cornwell was there because she didn't trust Lorca anymore.

But, yeah, sure, Gabe, I'll go. Yes, she had to take the chance for peace...but damn.

2 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

They better not kill her. 

Shut. Up.

Don't you dare speak such things. :laugh:

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Just now, prometheus59650 said:

 

This is one of the plot contrivances that annoys me anywhere I see it. Cornwell was there because she didn't trust Lorca anymore.

But, yeah, sure, Gabe, I'll go. Yes, she had to take the chance for peace...but damn.

That's why he went to bed with her - from the moment she stepped onto his ship he knew she would be trouble. (His face when he is being told that she's there in person says it all.) So, he decides to find out just how much of a threat she is and seduces her to make her talk, and deliberately reveals a few details to her (such as his puppy face and "don't take away my ship" and all) to make her talk about her suspicions when it comes to him. Then, once he is sure just how much of a threat she is to him and his command, he conveniently arranges for her to go to the Klingons - maybe he even had Starfleet Command's backing here. Sarek was incapacitated, and they can't exactly send HIM (Lorca is a lot of things, but not a diplomat, this is DEFINITELY not a "Sarek is incapacitated so the ship's captain steps in during diplomatic negotiations partly because he's such a terrific diplomat" thing, lol), so, they send her. I'm not sure she even had a chance to refuse. I doubt it was up to her alone. I would have assumed she'd ask him "what if this is a trap" or something, though... I mean she really walked into it a bit too easily, I absolutely agree.

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1 minute ago, Mr.Picard said:

That's why he went to bed with her - from the moment she stepped onto his ship he knew she would be trouble. (His face when he is being told that she's there in person says it all.) So, he decides to find out just how much of a threat she is and seduces her to make her talk, and deliberately reveals a few details to her (such as his puppy face and "don't take away my ship" and all) to make her talk about her suspicions when it comes to him. Then, once he is sure just how much of a threat she is to him and his command, he conveniently arranges for her to go to the Klingons - maybe he even had Starfleet Command's backing here. Sarek was incapacitated, and they can't exactly send HIM (Lorca is a lot of things, but not a diplomat, this is DEFINITELY not a "Sarek is incapacitated so the ship's captain steps in during diplomatic negotiations partly because he's such a terrific diplomat" thing, lol), so, they send her. I'm not sure she even had a chance to refuse. I doubt it was up to her alone. I would have assumed she'd ask him "what if this is a trap" or something, though... I mean she really walked into it a bit too easily, I absolutely agree.

Oh, I get why Lorca bedded her, but he kinda trashed that putting a hand to her throat and a phaser to her face. :)

But maybe that would have just been my personal reaction. ;)

 

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Just now, prometheus59650 said:

Oh, I get why Lorca bedded her, but he kinda trashed that putting a hand to her throat and a phaser to her face. :)

But maybe that would have just been my personal reaction. ;)

 

THAT is honestly the only reaction of his that I think was absolutely genuine and not part of any kind of plan. Sure it helped to send her over the edge and reveal just how messed up she thinks he is by now, but I doubt he had that one planned quite like that. Touching someone like Lorca, who is so scarred on the outside and the inside, gets you this kind of reaction. It might seem extreme to some, but it IS an accurate reaction from someone who is... emotionally unstable. (How can people stand being touched without knowing in advance? I honestly don't get it. I'm on Lorca's side here.) But yeah. I don't think he planned that one quite like that. It helped to accelerate things though, it made her admit her suspicions about him much faster than any sweet pillow talk would have, so, it worked out.

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I am wondering if there is truth to this Ash being a mole thing - especially when Admiral Cornwall states about his unusual abilities, which does seem like a point in itself.

Also - did Stamets volunteer for that "spore jump" again? He seems to enjoy it, although from the previous episode it seems to throw him a bit out of temporal sync (that reflection in the mirror that is).

I liked the mention of the Constitution-class Enterprise. One thing to note - the Discovery is definitely a newer ship than NCC-1701 - the original launched in 2245 (in the prime timeline, not the Kelvin-verse).

Speaking of Admiral Cornwall, what's going to happen to her? A mind-rip (a la "Errand of Mercy")? That's my guess. That and most certainly death.

It does also provide more layers into Vulcan culture, such as ones who aren't too fond of other species (a la humans) and that there are some fanatics at that. Not to mention character development into Burnham as well as Sarek. I know some say Sarek is a lousy father, but hey, how would you feel if you had two children that weren't fully Vulcan at all? Parenting for a 100% Vulcan father would have to be somewhat of a pain in the butt, wouldn't it?

Edited by Rusty0918
A mispell

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The whole Cornwell thing was just daft. I don't want to excuse it, but I guess i can forgive it - because so far, later revelations have shed new light on characters' past actions, so maybe there'll be a better reason for her behavior coming along in a later episode.

Anyway, no new episode of Star Trek would be complete without a Trendacosta lament:

https://io9.gizmodo.com/star-trek-discoverys-biggest-problem-is-that-its-a-pre-1819758511

 

5 minutes ago, Rusty0918 said:

It does also provide more layers into Vulcan culture, such as ones who aren't too fond of other species (a la humans) and that there are some fanatics at that. Not to mention character development into Burnham as well as Sarek. I know some say Sarek is a lousy father, but hey, how would you feel if you had two children that weren't fully Vulcan at all? Parenting for a 100% Vulcan father would have to be somewhat of a pain in the butt, wouldn't it?

Dude shouldn't have married one of those pesky human women with all their emotions then! :vulcan:

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56 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

Either way, he deliberately sent Cornwall on her way and said nothing about this probably being a trap, haha. And he suggested for her to go, even. LOL I love this it's such a delightfully evil plan

That was a total J.R. Ewing move...:laugh:

53 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

Lorca is already down as the craziest of the crazy TOS captains. 

And it is, frankly, delicious fun.

I can't bring myself to hate the guy.

Can’t say I do, either.   It’s like, as Robin said upthread, having a Mirror universe interloper who’s cleverly integrated himself into this universe. :thumbup:

30 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

Vie’s headcanon rejigging Enterprise as a new timeline that came to be after the events of First Contact always worked for me with TOS and the later shows, but I’m not sure how Disco will fit. 

I’m working on it...:laugh:

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Just now, Sehlat Vie said:

That was a total J.R. Ewing move...:laugh:

JR would be SO proud of his soulmate in space. :laugh: Honestly I can totally see Lorca watching Dallas episodes in his quarters like "I need some inspiration"... :laugh: 

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4 hours ago, Rusty0918 said:

It does also provide more layers into Vulcan culture, such as ones who aren't too fond of other species (a la humans) and that there are some fanatics at that. Not to mention character development into Burnham as well as Sarek. I know some say Sarek is a lousy father, but hey, how would you feel if you had two children that weren't fully Vulcan at all? Parenting for a 100% Vulcan father would have to be somewhat of a pain in the butt, wouldn't it?

 

4 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

The whole Cornwell thing was just daft. I don't want to excuse it, but I guess i can forgive it - because so far, later revelations have shed new light on characters' past actions, so maybe there'll be a better reason for her behavior coming along in a later episode.

Anyway, no new episode of Star Trek would be complete without a Trendacosta lament:

https://io9.gizmodo.com/star-trek-discoverys-biggest-problem-is-that-its-a-pre-1819758511

 

Dude shouldn't have married one of those pesky human women with all their emotions then! :vulcan:

This.

If you don't want children, don't have them. Sure, he saved Burnam's life and great, but he chose to mentor her and essentially make her part of his family. He chose to have a child with Amanda.

If he couldn't handle dealing with the emotions of Spock or Michael, he shouldn't have taken on any of it. He certainly shouldn't have taken it on thinking that they were simply going to conform to his standard in all things.

To be blunt, if he had a child with a human and then decided to care for another human as his child, and he either expected them to or needed them to be "little Sareks," then the Vulcan notion of IDIC takes yet another hit and he should have found himself a Vulcan wife and sent Michel packing.

 

Yeah, Sarek was a lousy father because he wanted to raise the children he wanted and not the ones he had.

Honestly, the Sarek that has made the most sense in terms of the man is Trek '09. Her seems to fully accept and even embrace that his son is half human.

 

Edited by prometheus59650

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Thoughts on this series so far:

A mixed bag. As some of us expected, it feels like it's going for a darker tone, which I'm not particularly interested in, but I appreciate that they remembered to show a few flashes of the old optimism. My favourite thing so far is that they're finally establishing a sense of warmth amongst the crew -- Michael and Tilly jogging, and a bit of conversation with Ash while they were eating. (Also, I hope the Big Ash Theory isn't true...I agree with the poster earlier who said that they like Ash.) I actually quite liked Saru at first, but after his treatment of the creature in the previous episode, his character has soured for me in terms of likeability. My favourite characters are probably Michael and Tilly...I quite like the Doctor too, though.

Edited by Explorer3

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24 minutes ago, Explorer3 said:

Thoughts on this series so far:

A mixed bag. As some of us expected, it feels like it's going for a darker tone, which I'm not particularly interested in, but I appreciate that they remembered to show a few flashes of the old optimism. My favourite thing so far is that they're finally establishing a sense of warmth amongst the crew -- Michael and Tilly jogging, and a bit of conversation with Ash while they were eating. (Also, I hope the Big Ash Theory isn't true...I agree with the poster earlier who said that they like Ash.) I actually quite liked Saru at first, but after his treatment of the creature in the previous episode, his character has soured for me in terms of likeability. My favourite characters are probably Michael and Tilly...I quite like the Doctor too, though.

That was me. I found Ash instantly likeable... I also hope the theory doing the rounds isn't true and he really is just a regular guy. And yes, i I think you put your finger on what's missing with this crew... a sense of warmth, of loyalty, of connectedness. Although I do like that Burnham now seems loyal to crazy Lorca for giving her a chance, perhaps putting her faith in someone she shouldn't. Or s she? That seems to be one of the big moral questions of this show. If the man gets good results, is he right for pursuing his goals via dubious methods? Previous Treks (mostly) say no (hi, Sisko), but this one is dabbling in other, greyer moral standpoints...

We do need more Doctor Culber too!

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nepr   
On 10/23/2017 at 8:36 AM, Rusty0918 said:

I am wondering if there is truth to this Ash being a mole thing - especially when Admiral Cornwall states about his unusual abilities, which does seem like a point in itself.

For me, at this point, the issue is how he could not be a spy, probably Voq the Albino himself.  There are too many things pointing to it, from an external viewer's POV.  If he isn't, then I think either we'll get a real hot pretzel of a twist or there are a number of things that we'll have to dismiss as deliberate and clumsy red herrings.

On 10/23/2017 at 8:41 AM, Robin Bland said:

The whole Cornwell thing was just daft. I don't want to excuse it, but I guess i can forgive it

Help me out, here.  I'm not sure what you're referring to as being "daft".  Perhaps it's the dumb, narrative shorthand trap at the end?

Not to be coy:  I was exhilarated by the Cornwell/Lorca scenes and they are the main source of my resuscitating hopes for this series.  The trap sequence  bothered me, because I think that kind of thing is simply lazy when you don't have run-time constraints and they've done it several times already and really should stop it.  My suspicion is that it's, that bane of Hollywood narrative, so-called pacing that's at fault.  This time, however, in my case, I have to forgive it because I hardly noticed it the first time through, so caught up was I in the drama.

On 10/24/2017 at 0:32 PM, Robin Bland said:

Although I do like that Burnham now seems loyal to crazy Lorca for giving her a chance, perhaps putting her faith in someone she shouldn't.

Also in addition to giving her a chance, he hadn't hesitated to launch a rescue for her father.

I found the moment of her acceptance and expression of admiration rather chilling.  I can't see how anything but heartache can come from it, at least not until a very turbulent course has been traveled.  Interesting that she seems to have been "infected" with Vulcan telepathy, to some extent.  Her captain might need that kind of support, especially if something awful happens to the Admiral while Discovery waits for orders.

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7 hours ago, nepr said:

For me, at this point, the issue is how he (Ash) could not be a spy, probably Voq the Albino himself. 

^
I agree.  The evidence is all over the place (****** POSSIBLE SPOILERS ******)

 

 

Voq has disappeared in all the Klingon scenes, right after L’Rell told him he may have to sacrifice ‘everything’ (including his identity, perhaps?).

He and L’Rell were ‘close’ and yet Voq (wherever he is?) allowed a human (or is it himself?) to have sex with her regularly (?).  

Ash suddenly appeared in the cell with Mudd & Lorca and with no scars whatsoever (after 7 months of torture?!?).

He’s expert in Klingon combat.   Um... how?  From torture?  How would you pick up Klingon martial arts moves from having your a$$ kicked?  Not the same thing.   I wouldn’t learn kung fu if Jet Li beat me up every week.

He got ‘caught’ by Lorca as not really being from Seattle; but 20 km outside of it.   A minor nit, granted, but I’ll add it to the pile anyway.

All Ash's family are conveniently dead or unavailable.

If there were a ‘real’ Lt. Ash Tyler, then the Klingons would have a bio-template on which to create their doppelgänger. 

 

How could you NOT believe Ash is a Klingon spy (or even Voq himself) at this point?   If not, then he’s just a boring “Gary Stu” who’s perfect and good at everything.   Sorry, I don’t buy it.  That, to me, is even more implausible than his being a Klingon agent.

  

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2 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

I wouldn’t learn kung fu if Jet Li beat me up every week.

Now, you don't know that. ;)

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9 hours ago, nepr said:

For me, at this point, the issue is how he could not be a spy, probably Voq the Albino himself.  There are too many things pointing to it, from an external viewer's POV.  If he isn't, then I think either we'll get a real hot pretzel of a twist or there are a number of things that we'll have to dismiss as deliberate and clumsy red herrings.

I love that expression, “a real hot pretzel of a twist!” :) It would have to be, for all the reasons you and Vie state. 

9 hours ago, nepr said:

Help me out, here.  I'm not sure what you're referring to as being "daft".  Perhaps it's the dumb, narrative shorthand trap at the end?

I was talking about the “Klingon trap” at the end of the episode, yeah. But...

9 hours ago, nepr said:

Not to be coy:  I was exhilarated by the Cornwell/Lorca scenes and they are the main source of my resuscitating hopes for this series.  The trap sequence  bothered me, because I think that kind of thing is simply lazy when you don't have run-time constraints and they've done it several times already and really should stop it.  My suspicion is that it's, that bane of Hollywood narrative, so-called pacing that's at fault.  This time, however, in my case, I have to forgive it because I hardly noticed it the first time through, so caught up was I in the drama.

Up to this point, Cornwell seemed to sound a note of sanity amongst a group of professionals who seem nothing like the Starfleet we know from any other iteration of Star Trek. (To be fair, she’s actually presented as a lot more warm and human than admirals were in past shows.) Then she comes on board with the intention of sussing out whether Lorca is fit for command... and sleeps with him. Any psychologist, psychotherapist, any kind of trained mental health professional in the world will tell you that’s just horse manure. If you suspect someone is mentally unstable, that’s one of the worst things you can do. Okay (mitigating factor), she had some sort of relationship with him in the past, but that also completely negates her stated intentions of evaluating him in any way as an objective observer. She just immediately totally caved to Lorca’s (not inconsiderable) charms - and we’re supposed to believe this is some hardass, clear-sighted admiral, the best Starfleet has to offer? Who then turns up to Klingonville in good faith with two (count ‘em) redshirts without any kind of backup? 

While the way all those scenes were acted was great, I had real trouble buying Cornwell as a hardy professional. I could just about take her folding to Lorca because of shared history, and witnessing his “Phaser moment” but the ending of the episode just had me questioning that she had any sense or ability at all. The ending succeeded in undermining for me any tenuous credibility the earlier scenes had had at all. Cornwell was just plot device masquerading as a character, given a lot of charm by Jayne Brooke. 

I really worked hard to buy it (can you tell? :laugh: ) but in the end, I just couldn’t. Worst aspect of the episode for me, but there were many other bits that I enjoyed. 

 

9 hours ago, nepr said:

Also in addition to giving her a chance, he hadn't hesitated to launch a rescue for her father.

This was great - this made total sense in terms of Lorca’s manipulative ability. He’s wrapping Burnham around his little finger. 

9 hours ago, nepr said:

I found the moment of her acceptance and expression of admiration rather chilling.  I can't see how anything but heartache can come from it, at least not until a very turbulent course has been traveled.  Interesting that she seems to have been "infected" with Vulcan telepathy, to some extent.  Her captain might need that kind of support, especially if something awful happens to the Admiral while Discovery waits for orders.

I agree. It’s only going to end in tears!

The reappropriation of a Vulcan mild meld into this magic, interstellar soul-swapping device bothers me a bit too, but I just file it in my [adopts McCoy voice] “I don’t know anything about how Vulcan mysticism works” folder. 

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32 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

Now, you don't know that. ;)

I don’t think I’d learn kung fu even if Jet Li patiently gave me lessons every other hour of every day...:laugh:

18 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

Then she comes on board with the intention of sussing out whether Lorca is fit for command... and sleeps with him.  Any psychologist, psychotherapist, any kind of trained mental health professional in the world will tell you that’s just horse manure. If you suspect someone is mentally unstable, that’s one of the worst things you can do. Okay (mitigating factor), she had some sort of relationship with him in the past, but that also completely negates her stated intentions of evaluating him in any way as an objective observer.

^
This.  She lost serious points for me as a believable character when she did that.  And then she allowed herself to be ‘volunteered’ for what was essentially a suicide mission right after she threatens to take Lorca’s command.  Hmmm... she didn’t get just a whiff of manipulation about that?  

Her judgment and intuition must’ve been surgically removed when she got her admiral’s stars...

I was waiting for Lorca to refill the straw in her head after they slept together. 

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1 hour ago, Sehlat Vie said:

his.  She lost serious points for me as a believable character when she did that.  And then she allowed herself to be ‘volunteered’ for what was essentially a suicide mission right after she threatens to take Lorca’s command.  Hmmm... she didn’t get just a whiff of manipulation about that?  

 

This is a plot contrivance as old as time and it's never been anything but stupid.

- John embezzles millions from his brokerage firm.

- Two people from work find out.

- John kills them to keep from being found out.

- John's friend Barry knows there's something wrong with John and is determined to help.

- Barry uncovers the terrible truth and confronts John, telling John that if he doesn't turn himself in, Barry will.

- John kills Barry because, well, obviously.

 

So, I can buy almost all of Cornwell's behavior. They have a history together and she doesn't want to believe he's so changed, and alcohol leads to a lot of stupid in human history so, fine.

But, after holding a phaser to her face while strangling her, and the ensuing confrontation, she knows he can't be trusted and a sticky-sweet, caramel-coated nutball is in charge of the fleet's greatest weapon.

In response, she does exactly nothing.

If she had taken her security and gone to the bridge and said, "After spending time with Captain Lorca, we both feel that he hasn't fully recovered from his ordeal with the Klingons. To that end, I am hereby relieving Captain Lorca of command, until such time as we both feel that he's ready to be back in the saddle. Mr. Saru, you are in temporarily in command."

That's it. That's all. It's done and it DOESN'T MATTER WHAT LORCA TRIES TO DO ANYMORE.

There has never been an instance where this sort of behavior makes sense.

Edited by prometheus59650

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1 hour ago, prometheus59650 said:

This is a plot contrivance as old as time and it's never been anything but stupid.

- John embezzles millions from his brokerage firm.

- Two people from work find out.

- John kills them to keep from being found out.

- John's friend Barry knows there's something wrong with John and is determined to help.

- Barry uncovers the terrible truth and confronts John, telling John that if he doesn't turn himself in, Barry will.

- John kills Barry because, well, obviously.

 

So, I can buy almost all of Cornwell's behavior. They have a history together and she doesn't want to believe he's so changed, and alcohol leads to a lot of stupid in human history so, fine.

But, after holding a phaser to her face while strangling her, and the ensuing confrontation, she knows he can't be trusted and a sticky-sweet, caramel-coated nutball is in charge of the fleet's greatest weapon.

In response, she does exactly nothing.

If she had taken her security and gone to the bridge and said, "After spending time with Captain Lorca, we both feel that he hasn't fully recovered from his ordeal with the Klingons. To that end, I am hereby relieving Captain Lorca of command, until such time as we both feel that he's ready to be back in the saddle. Mr. Saru, you are in temporarily in command."

That's it. That's all. It's done and it DOESN'T MATTER WHAT LORCA TRIES TO DO ANYMORE.

There has never been an instance where this sort of behavior makes sense.

Can't disagree, but wouldn't it have been nice if they'd have tried that little bit harder?

If you're a storyteller and you see this hurdle coming up, you find a writearound. It may turn out to be inspired, it may turn out to be even more contrived, or it may lead to all sorts of dramatic conflict that takes the story in a different direction than you want it to go, but this is also the methodology that leads to the audience not guessing what you're doing and where the teleplay is going. What's most important is the element of "suspension of disbelief," of audience immersion. What you don't do is force a plot function through a character who has been set up to be the voice of reason. it just makes them look stupid, it makes them look like that hoary old plot contrivance. (Alcohol notwithstanding, though you're absolutely right - that's always a good reason for a case of the stupids.)  

Star Trek, in its time, has thrown a great many crazy behavioral machinations the audience's way and sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. But this new show is styling itself as psychologically more complex than any Trek we've known before, and if they're going down that road, I really wish they wouldn't rely on the old cliches.

 

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27 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

Can't disagree, but wouldn't it have been nice if they'd have tried that little bit harder?

If you're a storyteller and you see this hurdle coming up, you find a writearound. It may turn out to be inspired, it may turn out to be even more contrived, or it may lead to all sorts of dramatic conflict that takes the story in a different direction than you want it to go, but this is also the methodology that leads to the audience not guessing what you're doing and where the teleplay is going. What's most important is the element of "suspension of disbelief," of audience immersion. What you don't do is force a plot function through a character who has been set up to be the voice of reason. it just makes them look stupid, it makes them look like that hoary old plot contrivance. (Alcohol notwithstanding, though you're absolutely right - that's always a good reason for a case of the stupids.)  

Star Trek, in its time, has thrown a great many crazy behavioral machinations the audience's way and sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. But this new show is styling itself as psychologically more complex than any Trek we've known before, and if they're going down that road, I really wish they wouldn't rely on the old cliches.

 

I completely agree. This is one of the cheapest cliches you can fall into and I'm somewhat shocked with the writing caliber in that room that it got a pass.You could have had Lorca breakdown, performance art on his part or not and burn the last of their relationship to let him step back on his own. He calls Saru, puts Saru in charge, and she takes that as enough, particularly once the peace talks come up.

She gets captured, and then we see Lorca reassert himself. He stepped aside, but, particularly now, this ship needs its captain back. Saru wilts because Saru would believably wilt and all is as the arc demands. 

There needs to be some sort of intervening act between Cornwell's revelation and her capture that might cause her to have reason to leave not needing to drop the hammer. As it is it's just, "Yup. He's crazy and has to be removed" and then...nothing.

Edited by prometheus59650

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10 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

I completely agree. This is one of the cheapest cliches you can fall into and I'm somewhat shocked with the writing caliber in that room that it got a pass.You could have had Lorca breakdown, performance art on his part or not and burn the last of their relationship to let him step back on his own. He calls Saru, puts Saru in charge, and she takes that as enough, particularly once the peace talks come up.

She gets captured, and then we see Lorca reassert himself. He stepped aside, but, particularly now, this ship needs its captain back. Saru wilts because Saru would believably wilt and all is as the arc demands. 

There needs to be some sort of intervening act between Cornwell's revelation and her capture that might cause her to have reason to leave not needing to drop the hammer. As it is it's just, "Yup. He's crazy and has to be removed" and then...nothing.

Yes! This, right here - this would've worked so much better. It's perfectly in tune with what we know of Lorca, too - clever, manipulative, a tactician who'll take a defeat now to set up a win later.

It feels like the first half of this script was watertight enough, but they didn't notice the holes in the aft section. It could've used a lot more polish.

I'm kind of at a place where I'm enjoying the show and just going with it; I'm really enjoying most of the characters, but stuff like this instance just feels sloppy.

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14 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

This is one of the cheapest cliches you can fall into and I'm somewhat shocked with the writing caliber in that room that it got a pass.You could have had Lorca breakdown, performance art on his part or not and burn the last of their relationship to let him step back on his own. He calls Saru, puts Saru in charge, and she takes that as enough, particularly once the peace talks come up.

She gets captured, and then we see Lorca reassert himself. He stepped aside, but, particularly now, this ship needs its captain back. Saru wilts because Saru would believably wilt and all is as the arc demands. 

There needs to be some sort of intervening act between Cornwell's revelation and her capture that might cause her to have reason to leave not needing to drop the hammer. As it is it's just, "Yup. He's crazy and has to be removed" and then...nothing.

 

15 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

Yes! This, right here - this would've worked so much better. It's perfectly in tune with what we know of Lorca, too - clever, manipulative, a tactician who'll take a defeat now to set up a win later.

It feels like the first half of this script was watertight enough, but they didn't notice the holes in the aft section. It could've used a lot more polish.

I'm kind of at a place where I'm enjoying the show and just going with it; I'm really enjoying most of the characters, but stuff like this instance just feels sloppy.

Thanks guys, for the feedback.  I realize now that I was taken in by the performances!

Tracing back, I can see where I've gone astray. ;)

Since, Context is for Kings,  the toughest nut for me, and I guess a lot of others, to swallow was Lorca being in the position of power he's in;  we have to believe Starfleet is really desperate.  His status is even tougher to take after the reveal of Lorca's trauma.  I guess I had already managed to accept that before Lethe, but it left me already suspicious of Starfleet top brass.  And given C and L's earlier encounters, I saw a certain amount of tension, even envy on her side, and she seemed to me more focused on their interpersonal than their professional relationship.  Meanwhile he was in, "my ship, my way", mode, confident that his status as a savior and his successes in the field made him untouchable.

In Lethe, he decides to help Burnham and, typical of the Starfleet captains I've seen over the years, does what he thinks is best for his ship and crew, regardless of what higher-ups want.  When Cornwell showed up, I was surprised because I thought she was over-stepping the authority I, and Lorca himself,  assumed Lorca had been given to do as he saw fit.  Then, in his quarters, I saw her talking to a friend who she thought was pushing too hard at the edge of what Starfleet command would put up with.  She had previously remarked a couple of times about how he was making enemies.  I didn't think she thought he was losing it and that she needed to intervene professionally; rather that she wanted to help a friend who was, she thought, over-confident and pushing too hard.  So, I wasn't at all put off by the alcohol coming out, and the more "casual" interactions.  In fact, I thought this kind of person-to-person contact was just what she had come there for.

For me it's only when he attacks her that she really sees him as a danger.  I was actually shocked when she threatened to relieve him of command and how seriously he quickly took the threat.  I think I had internalized the idea that she really didn't have that much power over him.  It really would have been her word against his and, again, Starfleet command had already anointed him.  My take was that we saw here just how much the command actually meant to Lorca; to the point where he couldn't stomach even the slightest chance of being relieved.

Once again, I wish the writers had done a better job with setting up the trap, but my head was so full with Burnham's (remember her?) well-earned trust and admiration for her captain, in contrast to what I had just learned about him, that I didn't have time to catch up, until the Klingon's all-too-easy betrayal elicited a, "Really?"  Still, all-in-all, judging from your comments, I allowed myself to get suckered!

For someone who doesn't much like reading, let alone writing, reviews, I'm in pretty deep here, but while I'm at it I must say that I like how the two threads intertwined in this episode.  It wasn't really an A/B division since it was Lorca's loyalty and commitment to his crew, and his mutineer in particular,  that set off and (albeit sloppily) terminated the events.

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Sehlat Vie needs to create a kung fu training montage set to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btPJPFnesV4

On the note of the Big Ash Theory...

(Look away now if you're worried about potential spoilers.)

The most convincing theory I've seen is that Voq has been through some sort of Manchurian Candidate process, and that at some point he'll suddenly activate, which in turn explains why he is such a convincing human.

Edited by Explorer3

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5 minutes ago, Explorer3 said:

Sehlat Vie needs to create a kung fu training montage set to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btPJPFnesV4

^
Part of my complete “Flabby Old Man Workout”...:laugh: :punk:

6 minutes ago, Explorer3 said:

On the note of the Big Ash Theory...

(Look away now if you're worried about potential spoilers.)

The most convincing theory I've seen is that Voq has been through some sort of Manchurian Candidate process, and that at some point he'll suddenly activate, which in turn explains why he is such a convincing human.

^
Could very well be.  At any rate, I’m 60-75% convinced that Ash is indeed a surgically altered Voq.

 

3 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

It feels like the first half of this script was watertight enough, but they didn't notice the holes in the aft section. It could've used a lot more polish.

^ This.  Admiral Cornwell’s motivation reeked of ‘haven’t-figured-out-a-better-way-to-keep-Lorca-outta-trouble.’ 

 

4 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

Can't disagree, but wouldn't it have been nice if they'd have tried that little bit harder?

On that point (Cornwell walking into Klingon trap so blindly) yes, I agree.   It was a bit of lazy plotting.

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