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prometheus59650

Episode 1.6 "Lethe" Discussion Thread

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nepr   

As do I.

Very disappointed with , The Butcher's Knife..., and, Choose Your Pain.  So much so that I'm dreading S0106.  Good to see that others here are more pleased than I, since I really want this series to have time to improve, though I'm getting further and further away from feeling myself in the target audience.

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Finally stammered through it. CBSAA really needs to get with Netflix to figure out how to stream so it works.

 

Good episode. Opens up some more of the Sarek/Burnam relationship...and closes it in a very real sense.

And Lorca...ahem...has baggage. 

I'm pretty sure Picard wouldn't leave the admiral he's sleeping with to rot so he didn't lose his ship.

On one level it's sooo wrong, but I'm still enjoying the hell out of Lorca.

 

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Corylea   

The football team my husband roots for played tonight, so he couldn't watch the most recent episode with me when it went live, and he didn't want me to watch it without him, so I'm waiting until tomorrow night to watch it.  I think this should give me roughly 100 Good Spouse points. :)

*tries to wait patiently*

 

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nepr   

Admiral Cornwell (Jayne Brook) and Lorca (Jason Issacs) together blew my socks off.  Just terrific work, in my view.  Relieved at getting reeled back in!

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18 minutes ago, nepr said:

Admiral Cornwell (Jayne Brook) and Lorca (Jason Issacs) together blew my socks off. 

They were wonderful together.

This show has some serious acting chops going...from everyone.

 

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nepr   

I know you're on the West Coast, USA, like me so it's not that late, but still late, and I appreciate you taking the time to quickly post and insightful summary and critique!

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5 hours ago, nepr said:

I know you're on the West Coast, USA, like me so it's not that late, but still late, and I appreciate you taking the time to quickly post and insightful summary and critique!

Thanks.

I'm trying to be more timely.  :)

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Disco, as it inevitably has to be called from this point forward, is getting knottier and rolls out another engaging episode, but still doesn’t really feel like fully-formed Star Trek yet.

Which doesn’t mean it’s not really entertaining. Lorca is the best thing about the show. It’s not really designed to be that way, but this guy is fascinating. Isaacs is superb and dominates every scene he’s in, simply because he’s such a messed-up, manipulative nutcase. 

I feel like we are not in the Prime universe at all, but a third timeline. Maybe the spore drive flits accidentally between parallels (hi, Worf) and that’s where the Discovery will end up - a dark interloper from a mirrorverse that eventually winds up in the day-glo Prime timeline. 

Cornwell, who previously I thought was pretty smart, does some incredibly dumb things this episode, not least of which is reigniting an affair with her underling in an attempt to... psych eval him? Really? Or because she’s genuinely concerned? That’s still... sorry, incredibly unprofessional. Then she walks right into a trap that’s painted in 20-feet high letters that spell out “T-R-A-P.” Okaaaay...

Sarek’s backstory is filled in in such a way that finally had me breathe out and smile. I like Frain’s take on this legacy character, and these details make more sense of why he was so peeved when Spock chose Starfleet over the Vulcan Science Division (or Expeditionary Force, as it’s called here. I could quibble about that label, but whatevs). This is the first time I felt that Disco has genuinely made a benefit of its setting, 10 years prior to TOS. 

Sarek had to make an impossible choice, especially in the face of what amounts to Vulcan racism. Racism is actually illogical, Vulcans. You know this (hi, Enterprise), but finding out that your culture continues to be as amorphous, contradictory and layered as humans is good stuff. I’d wager that these few scenes of Vulcan culture developed and deepened them in ways that the show has been trying to do with the Klingons, but not succeeding as well. Though I wish the paler ones amongst them  would look a little greener in close-up - the Vulcan extremist especially looked so pink-skinned as to be human. Minor nit). Vulcan extremism and isolationism is an idea I’d like to see explored further. 

Burnham makes a lot more sense after these scenes - forever torn between human and Vulcan culture, aspiring to much and failing not because of her shortcomings but because of exterior influences - Vulcan racism, her adoptive father’s own decisions. She’s uptight for very good reasons, and the dysfunctional relationship between she and Sarek - who we know is a man of deep feelings, despite his adherence to Vulcan logic - is great character work. When she softens and reacts positively to the likes of Tilly and Ash Tyler, we get a more likeable Burnham, and this I want to see more of.

Tllly’s just great. Up there with Lorca, Stamets, Culber, Saru and now Ash as the greatest assets of the show. Ash Tyler - if he is Voq/a Klingon agent, Lorca is the biggest lemon in Starfleet. But he’s also bonkers, so maybe, okay, I might buy this. But the annoying thing is, I really like Ash. I want him to be a permanent fixture. Also, if he’s Klingon, and essentially deeply repulsed by humans, engaging with them at this level must prove commonalities that he can’t simply dismiss (wishful thinking about racist thinking on my part, maybe, but this kind of deep immersion in different points of view is often shown to educate and illuminate previously closed minds, so we’ll see, I guess). 

Stamets - something’s happened, hasn’t it? I mean, “Groovy”...? This guy is great. More Stamets. He and Saru were not front and center in the episode, but their brief scenes pointed up how much they, along with Tilly, have become reasons to watch this show in themselves. 

The Holodeck. I could buy this as a holographic shooting range without the sophisticated depth of character and tangibility its 24th century equivalents had - but it does of course beg the question why such a big deal was made of holo-tech in the 24th century. Answer - this is not yet the prime timeline we know and love. Given how the showrunners delivered on their promise of “appearing to contradict canon but providing answers to the patient” with Sarek this week, I think we’ll get a lot of answers to some of these apparently casual canon-messing mysteries further down the line. 

Which maybe is why it all feels not quite like Star Trek. It’s anti-Star Trek, like Burnham herself - an unusual focus, an antihero with the potential for great change. I’m good with that. 

Cornwell though.... gah! In any universe. 

 

Stray observations: 

Also, I want one of those T-shirts. 

Disco continues to be lit in such a way that it deliberately shows up imperfections in the actors’ skin and highlights them. While I appreciate that this makes Starfleet personnel less “Hollywood perfect,” I do wonder if they should take it down a notch or two and concentrate on the performers’ appeal - simply because it’s a bit distracting in HD to see Sylvia’s pimples in such grainy detail. Wiseman has a lovely face and smile, and I’m not sure we need to see every bump and flaw highlighted on her face. This strikes me as an odd aesthetic decision. 

I really like the way the Discovery “drops” out of a spore jump.

The mention of “Constitution class” vessels and the Enterprise sort of brings into view the massive design differences between those vessels! Assuming this is “our” 1701 we’re talking about and not some parallel version, of course...  

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@Robin Bland

"My mind to your mind...your thoughts are my thoughts."  :laugh:

Other than your uniquely brilliant observation about the possibility of DSC being part of a new, third timeline (which is pretty much how I dealt with ENT's anachronisms and discontinuities), you mirrored many of my thoughts on "Lethe."

And yes, I normally don't wear fan t-shirts (that's my wife's department) but I NEED a DISCO shirt.   Easiest ST cosplay EVER.  

Hell, if they have my size I might grab two for Vegas...:P

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3 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

@Robin Bland

"My mind to your mind...your thoughts are my thoughts."  :laugh:

Other than your uniquely brilliant observation about the possibility of DSC being part of a new, third timeline (which is pretty much how I dealt with ENT's anachronisms and discontinuities), you mirrored many of my thoughts on "Lethe."

And yes, I normally don't wear fan t-shirts (that's my wife's department) but I NEED a DISCO shirt.   Easiest ST cosplay EVER.  

Hell, if they have my size I might grab two for Vegas...:P

:)

We must take care that the quantum superhighway connection between our two minds does not disrupt local undermatter congruities. 

I forgot to mention the new Amanda - another very nice piece of recasting that squared nicely with Jane Wyatt, I thought. 

It makes sense of some of the contradictions, which are sometimes placed - I want to say deliberately - as hooks. I just think this might turn out to be clever foreshadowing of something that’ll be addressed later. Faith in that idea definitely got rewarded this episode with the development of Sarek.  

PS @Sehlat Vie Just read your review - haha! Yeah. 

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BTW, Tilly and Lorca are quickly becoming favorites of mine.  I love her relatability and his bad-assery.   She's our perfect audience avatar in this world, and he's J.R. Ewing in a universe that's ordinarily not supposed to have them.

***** SPOILER *****


My single biggest foul cry after Admiral Cornwell's walking into a blatantly obvious trap was that freaking holodeck.

I realize that my own beloved TAS (and even the first episode of STC) had a prototypical version, but it WAS a prototype.  And the 'perfected' version we see 100 years later looks like a freaking Atari gaming system now, thanks to DSC having one 110 years earlier (!).  Riker should be no more awed by it then I would be if I peered into an old nickelodeon instead of a 3D movie.

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5 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

BTW, Tilly and Lorca are quickly becoming favorites of mine.  I love her relatability and his bad-assery.   She's our perfect audience avatar in this world, and he's J.R. Ewing in a universe that's ordinarily not supposed to have them.

***** SPOILER *****


My single biggest foul cry after Admiral Cornwell's walking into a blatantly obvious trap was that freaking holodeck.

I realize that my own beloved TAS (and even the first episode of STC) had a prototypical version, but it WAS a prototype.  And the 'perfected' version we see 100 years later looks like a freaking Atari gaming system now, thanks to DSC having one 110 years earlier (!).  Riker should be no more awed by it then I would be if I peered into an old nickelodeon instead of a 3D movie.

It’s the show hitting its head against that “continuity ceiling” again. I’m gonna reiterate how this could’ve been avoided in a show set post-VOY. We’d have sacrificed the Sarek drama, but there’s no reason why that couldn’t be carried by a new character. While it might lose the resonance those mentions of Spock bring, it’d mean fewer maddening moments like the Holodeck stuff and disconnects over design (Klingons, starships etc.)... 

Or maybe this is just a different universe...  

Edited by Robin Bland

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33 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

It’s the show hitting its head against that “continuity ceiling” again. I’m gonna reiterate how this could’ve been avoided in a show set post-VOY. We’d have sacrificed the Sarek drama, but there’s no reason why that couldn’t be carried by a new character. While it might lose the resonance those mentions of Spock bring, it’d mean fewer maddening moments like the Holodeck stuff and disconnects over design (Klingons, starships etc.)... 

And if they really felt the need for that Spock-family marketability, they could’ve made Burnham the adopted daughter (or betrothed?) of one of Spock’s descendants (a fine chance to finally work in that deleted 'pregnant Saavik’ storyline from “The Voyage Home”).

And that damn holodeck... argh.  

Again, good idea, adopting your third timeline explanation.   Worked for me on ENT...:laugh:

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And apparently, I wasn’t the only one experiencing technical difficulties while streaming the episode last night:

http://screenrant.com/cbs-all-access-streaming-problems-star-trek-discovery/

^
After about the 5th or 6th time my Roku stopped to buffer, I just went into the home office and watched it on my 21” Mac.  It streamed just fine (albeit on a screen 22 inches smaller than the screen on which I wanted to view it).  At first I thought it might be an issue with my brand new (and previously glitch-free) Roku, but it wasn’t apparently.

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Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

I really, really, really did absolutely NOT care about Sarek being The Galaxy's Worst Dad - AGAIN - and Burnham in general, I just skipped most of those scene, that plot so did nothing at all for me, so, bleh *throws it away* honestly this was the weakest plot for me so far, but maybe that's because I just DON'T CARE about Burnham, I don't think I ever will.

BUT LORCA

Caaaannnnnn we talk about Lorca for a second here. (Hah.)

Am I the only one who actually thinks Lorca KNEW Cornwall would step into that trap? That he might even have TOLD the Klingons they'd get a much bigger prize than some Vulcan dude? I mean... it's so obvious to me...? He had to get rid of her, and fast - she was becoming a problem. I doubt he bedded her because he felt it would be nice, that's just not what Gabriel Lorca does - he did that to evaluate where she stands when it comes to him - the moment she arrived and told him she was concerned about him he got suspicious that her true motive would be to assess him and his ability to command. And that was a big problem, so she had to go, one way or another. Besides, it was HIS suggestion that she should go to meet the Klingons instead of Sarek. He KNEW this was a trap. I originally thought he'd blow up her shuttle but then I guess that would have been too obvious now THERE is a captain after my own heart - if an admiral becomes a problem, throw her to the Klingons :P 

Also, the newest ship in town gets solidified with quite a few nice moments:

tumblr_oy9esbGwCa1qbmp7lo4_540.gif

"this actual Klingon spy oh I know but he mustn't know that I know puppy is mine"

Ahem.png

AHEM I umm... I'm just gonna let this line and its raunchy double meaning speak for itself :angel_not:

Also, shirtless Lorca etc, etc.... I'll hop over to my Lorca topic for all that tho. :P

Anyways... the Lorca scenes made this episode for me, but the rest of the scenes just bored me. Ah well, can't love every single episode in its entirety I guess.

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1 hour ago, Sehlat Vie said:

And apparently, I wasn’t the only one experiencing technical difficulties while streaming the episode last night:

http://screenrant.com/cbs-all-access-streaming-problems-star-trek-discovery/

^
After about the 5th or 6th time my Roku stopped to buffer, I just went into the home office and watched it on my 21” Mac.  It streamed just fine (albeit on a screen 22 inches smaller than the screen on which I wanted to view it).  At first I thought it might be an issue with my brand new (and previously glitch-free) Roku, but it wasn’t apparently.

Actually, I’ve seen that complaint repeated elsewhere (in more informal contexts), so maybe CBSAA was experiencing some really serious technical trouble last night. I didn’t watch the ep until about 10.30pm EST so maybe they’d fixed it by then. 

They need to sort it out - as streaming services go, they ain’t cheap, especially if you’ve taken the “No Adverts” option. 

Also - the news you all wanted:

 

Edited by Robin Bland

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2 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

I feel like we are not in the Prime universe at all, but a third timeline. Maybe the spore drive flits accidentally between parallels (hi, Worf) and that’s where the Discovery will end up - a dark interloper from a mirrorverse that eventually winds up in the day-glo Prime timeline. 

Honestly, this is basically where I am. There's TOS....

...There's TNG, DS9, and VOY, which reference each other, but, in more than one instance, contradict TOS.

This feels like something else.

2 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

Sarek’s backstory is filled in in such a way that finally had me breathe out and smile. I like Frain’s take on this legacy character, and these details make more sense of why he was so peeved when Spock chose Starfleet over the Vulcan Science Division (or Expeditionary Force, as it’s called here. I could quibble about that label, but whatevs). This is the first time I felt that Disco has genuinely made a benefit of its setting, 10 years prior to TOS. 

Very true. "I cared a great deal about Burnam and screwed her over for you, and then you screw me?

And, with Burnam, I really think this is was a watershed episode for her development. You're absolutely right that she's been caught between two cultures, but it feels like, with, and after Sarek, it feels like she let go of a lot of that.

I love Tilly. I love her because she's warm and funny, and she's not just the sum of her quirks. I mean, she's awkward and all, but, when it comes down to it, she knows her business, knows who she is and what she wants. If she were just this barely together creature, she'd hang on every word Burnam said. But Burnam tells her that she gave Tilly bad advice and make her own plan and "I already have."

Stamets? Ash? Tilly? They all sooo work.

1 hour ago, Mr.Picard said:

Am I the only one who actually thinks Lorca KNEW Cornwall would step into that trap? That he might even have TOLD the Klingons they'd get a much bigger prize than some Vulcan dude? I mean... it's so obvious to me...?

I'm not quite ready to say he called the Klingons and gave her up, but he had to have smelled a trap and he's pretty happy at the moment.  

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2 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

I'm not quite ready to say he called the Klingons and gave her up, but he had to have smelled a trap and he's pretty happy at the moment.  

Either way, he deliberately sent Cornwall on her way and said nothing about this probably being a trap, haha. And he suggested for her to go, even. LOL I love this it's such a delightfully evil plan

I loved his "do I have to pretend I'm shocked now?" reaction when Saru told him that Cornwall has been captured. He was like "yeah sure whatever Imma play by the rules, Starfleet has to order me to get her" while knowing fully well that Starfleet WON'T order him to get her because they need the Discovery for more important stuff (such as winning the war)... ahahaha classic Shady Lorca.

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1 minute ago, Mr.Picard said:

Either way, he deliberately sent Cornwall on her way and said nothing about this probably being a trap, haha. And he suggested for her to go, even. LOL I love this it's such a delightfully evil plan

I loved his "do I have to pretend I'm shocked now?" reaction when Saru told him that Cornwall has been captured. He was like "yeah sure whatever Imma play by the rules, Starfleet has to order me to get her" while knowing fully well that Starfleet WON'T order him to get her because they need the Discovery for more important stuff (such as winning the war)... ahahaha classic Shady Lorca.

Lorca is already down as the craziest of the crazy TOS captains. 

And it is, frankly, delicious fun.

I can't bring myself to hate the guy.

 

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Just now, prometheus59650 said:

Lorca is already down as the craziest of the crazy TOS captains. 

And it is, frankly, delicious fun.

I can't bring myself to hate the guy.

 

I can't even begin to say how much I adore Gabriel Lorca. :laugh: He MAKES the show for me. I honestly don't really care about anyone else anymore at this point, all I want is more Shady Lorca scenes. He isthe Trek captain I have always, always, always wanted to see and never thought I'd get.

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29 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

They need to sort it out - as streaming services go, they ain’t cheap, especially if you’ve taken the “No Adverts” option. 

Do you know what would have made me rage if I'd known because it happened to me?

Apparently, for those with the cheaper option, the commercials streamed fine.

 

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9 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

Do you know what would have made me rage if I'd known because it happened to me?

Apparently, for those with the cheaper option, the commercials streamed fine.

 

Ooooh, that’s really not good. 

17 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

Lorca is already down as the craziest of the crazy TOS captains. 

And it is, frankly, delicious fun.

I can't bring myself to hate the guy.

 

Haha! This 

21 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

Either way, he deliberately sent Cornwall on her way and said nothing about this probably being a trap, haha. And he suggested for her to go, even. LOL I love this it's such a delightfully evil plan

I dunno - I think it was one of those “lies of omission.” But Cornwell just walked right into it. 

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2 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

I dunno - I think it was one of those “lies of omission.” But Cornwell just walked right into it. 

To be honest I'm not really sorry that she did... #TeamLorca :angel_not:

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