Mr.Picard

The Gabriel Lorca Topic (SPOILERS INCLUDED)

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1 hour ago, Enterprise Discovery said:

The look on Lorca's face when he saw the mirror universe Georgiou makes the theory that he is from the mirror universe more likely. He seemed like he was about to smile. If so, where is the prime universe Gabriel Lorca?

Prime Lorca probably got switched by the Mirror Version, and ended up dead somewhere in the Mirror Universe.  Or...he is out there surviving, and his reintergration into the Prime Universe or something ends up being a major plot point of Season 2 or something. Just spitballing.  But like you, I am pretty much convinced that Lorca is a Mirror counterpart, really began to feel it last week, but now I am pretty darned sure.  One thing I am giving this show, it is really starting to hold my interest!

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2 minutes ago, kenman said:

Prime Lorca probably got switched by the Mirror Version, and ended up dead somewhere in the Mirror Universe.  Or...he is out there surviving, and his reintergration into the Prime Universe or something ends up being a major plot point of Season 2 or something. Just spitballing.  But like you, I am pretty much convinced that Lorca is a Mirror counterpart, really began to feel it last week, but now I am pretty darned sure.  One thing I am giving this show, it is really starting to hold my interest!

I'm not certain of it just yet. I'd much prefer him to be a prime universe character that remains throughout the series. There are many great new characters and it would be a shame for the character to either be written off of the series, or revealed to be the antagonist, which would likely be the case if he is from the mirror universe.

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4 minutes ago, Enterprise Discovery said:

I'm not certain of it just yet. I'd much prefer him to be a prime universe character that remains throughout the series. There are many great new characters and it would be a shame for the character to either be written off of the series, or revealed to be the antagonist, which would likely be the case if he is from the mirror universe.

Ahh, but what of my second option...that we get Prime Lorca into the mix for Season 2, they swap them back somehow, and we get a new interesting development for Jason Isaacs to explore in that way...you keep the actor, get a new version of the character who isn't as aggressive...but is maybe a bit screwed up because of time spent trapped in the mirror.  As Burnham said, she can already feel it changing her a bit, being around humans that are so aggressive. Maybe Lorca comes back, somewhat himself, but maybe a tad changed. And he has to try and deal with that...there are intriguing possibilities in something like that. 

Then again, I am just pulling stuff out of thin air.

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2 minutes ago, kenman said:

Ahh, but what of my second option...that we get Prime Lorca into the mix for Season 2, they swap them back somehow, and we get a new interesting development for Jason Isaacs to explore in that way...you keep the actor, get a new version of the character who isn't as aggressive...but is maybe a bit screwed up because of time spent trapped in the mirror.  As Burnham said, she can already feel it changing her a bit, being around humans that are so aggressive. Maybe Lorca comes back, somewhat himself, but maybe a tad changed. And he has to try and deal with that...there are intriguing possibilities in something like that. 

Then again, I am just pulling stuff out of thin air.

That would be interesting. You could even have both of them in the series, along with other characters from the prime universe Discovery, whose mirror universe selves could be working with the mirror Lorca. They could face themselves for a few episodes.

Edited by Enterprise Discovery

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2 hours ago, Enterprise Discovery said:

The look on Lorca's face when he saw the mirror universe Georgiou makes the theory that he is from the mirror universe more likely. He seemed like he was about to smile. If so, where is the prime universe Gabriel Lorca?

To me, it’s fact at this point.   Too many obvious pointers, even in the previous episode. 

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1 minute ago, Sehlat Vie said:

To me, it’s fact at this point.   Too many obvious pointers, even in the previous episode. 

It does seem most likely unfortunately, as I find Lorca to be an interesting character and he may be written out of the series if he is a mirror universe character and/or an antagonist.

Edited by Enterprise Discovery

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1 minute ago, Enterprise Discovery said:

It does seem most likely unfortunately, as I find Lorca to be an interesting character and he may be written out of the series if he is a mirror universe character and/or an antagonist.

Or... swapped out with his missing prime counterpart?

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2 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Or... swapped out with his missing prime counterpart?

True, but in another thread, there's been a theory that he destroyed the Buran, including the Lorca from the prime universe. I'm saying, if that is what happened, it's unfortunate.

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While the Second Season could go in wildly different directions, I think seeing a Prime Universe character coming to terms with an inadvertent exile into the savage Mirror Universe to be quite the interesting type of story to explore in Trek.  If they don't do that now, I hope someone can do a story like that someday!

Interesting thought...if Lorca is a Mirror (and lets face it...he just has to be!), couldn't his Security Officer from the first few episodes (that was killed by the Tardigrade), also have been?  She seemed more aggressive as well, and was close to Lorca.  Maybe they came together, and his plan was delayed partially because when she died he lost something of the plan.  Oh...it is lovely to have a Trek that is making me think of things again!

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1 hour ago, kenman said:

While the Second Season could go in wildly different directions, I think seeing a Prime Universe character coming to terms with an inadvertent exile into the savage Mirror Universe to be quite the interesting type of story to explore in Trek.  If they don't do that now, I hope someone can do a story like that someday!

Interesting thought...if Lorca is a Mirror (and lets face it...he just has to be!), couldn't his Security Officer from the first few episodes (that was killed by the Tardigrade), also have been?  She seemed more aggressive as well, and was close to Lorca.  Maybe they came together, and his plan was delayed partially because when she died he lost something of the plan.  Oh...it is lovely to have a Trek that is making me think of things again!

This theory certainly has lots of points on each side of it. Who knows if it's true, or not? The possible hints are definitely there, though, if it's true.

Edited by Enterprise Discovery

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6 hours ago, kenman said:

While the Second Season could go in wildly different directions, I think seeing a Prime Universe character coming to terms with an inadvertent exile into the savage Mirror Universe to be quite the interesting type of story to explore in Trek.  If they don't do that now, I hope someone can do a story like that someday!

Interesting thought...if Lorca is a Mirror (and lets face it...he just has to be!), couldn't his Security Officer from the first few episodes (that was killed by the Tardigrade), also have been?  She seemed more aggressive as well, and was close to Lorca.  Maybe they came together, and his plan was delayed partially because when she died he lost something of the plan.  Oh...it is lovely to have a Trek that is making me think of things again!

I'm thinking that she was in an escape pod with him when they fled the mirror-Buran. Her attitude and hostility was too 'anti-Starfleet.'

4 hours ago, Enterprise Discovery said:

This theory certainly has lots of points on each side of it. Who knows if it's true, or not? The possible hints are definitely there, though, if it's true.

Or prime-Lorca could be just as scrappy/resourceful as his mirror-self and perhaps he escaped somehow...

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That SMIRK when he saw Georgiou. Oh, Mirror!Gabe. PLEASE BE CAREFUL, stay until the season finale at least, PLEASE.

I also almost spat out my tea when Burnham said she wanted Lorca and "a private interrogation"... yeah well a lot of us do I suppose

tumblr_oycn503Oc81qdhps7o1_r1_400.gif

:angel_not:

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6 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

That SMIRK when he saw Georgiou. Oh, Mirror!Gabe. PLEASE BE CAREFUL, stay until the season finale at least, PLEASE.

I also almost spat out my tea when Burnham said she wanted Lorca and "a private interrogation"... yeah well a lot of us do I suppose

tumblr_oycn503Oc81qdhps7o1_r1_400.gif

:angel_not:

I actually thought of YOU during that very line of dialogue...

You’ve corrupted my Star Trek viewing yet again.  :giggle:

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Just now, Sehlat Vie said:

I actually thought of YOU during that very line of dialogue...

You’ve corrupted my Star Trek viewing yet again.  :giggle:

tumblr_m2p6fivywI1qg7tbu.gif

I literally purred and was like "rrrrr don't we all, Michael, don't we all"... :laugh: Honestly she spoke for the entire Lorca fandom :laugh:

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5 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Or prime-Lorca could be just as scrappy/resourceful as his mirror-self and perhaps he escaped somehow...

That could be possible, as well. What'd be really interesting is if he managed to find a way aboard the Discovery and had been waiting, trying to find the right moment to tell the crew about mirror Lorca, if he is the mirror Lorca. I know that won't likely happen, but it'd be interesting if he showed up like that, if that's where the story is going.

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12 hours ago, scenario said:

Maybe prime-Lorca is in the dungeon of the emperors palace while mirror Lorca scouted the prime universe for a possible invasion.

Seems perfectly reasonable.

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I like the words "Lorca" and "dungeon" in one sentence. :laugh: Nah, really, I would LOVE for Prime Lorca to be still around and come into play in some way.

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10 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

I like the words "Lorca" and "dungeon" in one sentence. :laugh: Nah, really, I would LOVE for Prime Lorca to be still around and come into play in some way.

Given how fascinating and intelligent his mirror-version is, I wonder what his prime version is like?  He's so ruthlessly intelligent.  He did the thing that mirror-Spock once said was almost impossible; for a mirror barbarian to pass as 'civilized' in our universe.  He not only passed, but he got a prime universe crew to do his bidding.  

If his prime self has that kind of intelligence (and even some of that cunning), he'd still be a fascinating character. 

I was rewatching his first episode yesterday, and I'm convinced that he and his dead security chief Landry escaped together.  Landry also feels like a mirror character.  I'm guessing she was his personal guard in that universe.  That he seemed so nonplussed by her death later on shows that she, like most else in his life, was just a useful tool and nothing more. 

Anyway, I really hope that DSC doesn't eliminate the character (in either version) altogether. 

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Reddit had a thread that was basically collecting together all the clues that point to Lorca being a Mirror character, the most compelling pieces of evidence I hadn't thought of...but Burnham, being someone close to Georgiou (from the looks of the trailer in either universe), is clearly key to his plan, hence his recruitment of her and how he so often wants her kept safe.  The other was a line from Burnham in this last episode: even the light looks different here...and Lorca's whole light sensitivity thing! Also another person in that thread noted that Lorca had a similar meal in an earlier episode to that of the one Mirror Saru presented Burnham with in this latest episode...some squid thing. 

There are some interesting clues that I'd missed earlier, and it makes even some of the earliest episodes that weren't quite as interesting as the path they seem to be on now worth a new look. 

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4 hours ago, kenman said:

Reddit had a thread that was basically collecting together all the clues that point to Lorca being a Mirror character, the most compelling pieces of evidence I hadn't thought of...but Burnham, being someone close to Georgiou (from the looks of the trailer in either universe), is clearly key to his plan, hence his recruitment of her and how he so often wants her kept safe.  The other was a line from Burnham in this last episode: even the light looks different here...and Lorca's whole light sensitivity thing! Also another person in that thread noted that Lorca had a similar meal in an earlier episode to that of the one Mirror Saru presented Burnham with in this latest episode...some squid thing. 

There are some interesting clues that I'd missed earlier, and it makes even some of the earliest episodes that weren't quite as interesting as the path they seem to be on now worth a new look. 

I just finished a rewatch of “Context is for Kings” and now that it’s more or less official about Lorca being from the MU?  His (and Landry’s) attitudes feel exactly right.   They’re like a couple of caged tigers, trying to contain themselves in a den of civility.

Personally I think the MU fits Disco just as the Klingons and Dominion war fit DS9.

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2 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

I just finished a rewatch of “Context is for Kings” and now that it’s more or less official about Lorca being from the MU?  His (and Landry’s) attitudes feel exactly right.   They’re like a couple of caged tigers, trying to contain themselves in a den of civility.

Personally I think the MU fits Disco just as the Klingons and Dominion war fit DS9.

MU Lorca assuming Prime Lorca's identity would be one thing, adding Landry too would take some doing. Either prime Landry has to be replaced, or if she isn't in starfleet or even doesn't exist, then Lorca has to create a paper trail for her to be a starfleet officer. Sure, she could have been a wartime draftee like Micheal, but there was no mention of that on screen. 

I am on board with the MU theory, but if it was MU Lorca, why does he spend several episodes fighting the Klingons? That's not his war. Maybe he was waiting for an excuse to make 130+ jumps to map a path back home and the tardigrade wasn't up to it? 

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43 minutes ago, Hammer said:

MU Lorca assuming Prime Lorca's identity would be one thing, adding Landry too would take some doing. Either prime Landry has to be replaced, or if she isn't in starfleet or even doesn't exist, then Lorca has to create a paper trail for her to be a starfleet officer. Sure, she could have been a wartime draftee like Micheal, but there was no mention of that on screen. 

I am on board with the MU theory, but if it was MU Lorca, why does he spend several episodes fighting the Klingons? That's not his war. Maybe he was waiting for an excuse to make 130+ jumps to map a path back home and the tardigrade wasn't up to it? 

I think the war was prep for him and the crew. Plus if he does well in the war he's more useful to the admirals and is more likely to get away with stuff. 

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13 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Given how fascinating and intelligent his mirror-version is, I wonder what his prime version is like?  He's so ruthlessly intelligent.  He did the thing that mirror-Spock once said was almost impossible; for a mirror barbarian to pass as 'civilized' in our universe.  He not only passed, but he got a prime universe crew to do his bidding.  

If his prime self has that kind of intelligence (and even some of that cunning), he'd still be a fascinating character. 

I was rewatching his first episode yesterday, and I'm convinced that he and his dead security chief Landry escaped together.  Landry also feels like a mirror character.  I'm guessing she was his personal guard in that universe.  That he seemed so nonplussed by her death later on shows that she, like most else in his life, was just a useful tool and nothing more. 

Anyway, I really hope that DSC doesn't eliminate the character (in either version) altogether. 

I agree that the character, hopefully the prime universe Lorca, if the one in the series thus far ends up being from the mirror universe, should remain in the series. Also, what if they just switched places and that's why Lorca wanted to know what happened to himself in the mirror universe. Maybe the prime Lorca is running and is trying to make his way back to his universe. Again, assuming that the Lorca we've seen is the mirror Lorca.

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23 hours ago, scenario said:

I think the war was prep for him and the crew. Plus if he does well in the war he's more useful to the admirals and is more likely to get away with stuff. 

Exactly, he had a line before they engaged the Ship of the Dead (I think) that when he took over the Discovery it was a ship of scientists, and he had turned them into Warriors. He used the war as an attempt to gain the trust of a crew, make them a little rougher around the edges to take this advanced ship back into the Mirror Universe to have a fighting chance against the Emperor he means to overthrow. That's my guess anyhow. 

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