Mr.Picard

The Gabriel Lorca Topic (SPOILERS INCLUDED)

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I'm eager to see what's next as well, especially when it comes to knowing more about Lorca, of course.

And may I just say he looks SO GOOD IN THIS UNIFORM.

tumblr_oxrtw5jJfV1wczmpwo1_540.jpg

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20 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

I'm eager to see what's next as well, especially when it comes to knowing more about Lorca, of course.

And may I just say he looks SO GOOD IN THIS UNIFORM.

tumblr_oxrtw5jJfV1wczmpwo1_540.jpg

I’m very curious to see how he interacts with Harry Mudd; either he’ll be antagonized by him (as Kirk was) or...given Lorca’s somewhat morally ambiguous nature, he and Mudd might reach an understanding.  Since I’ve always despised TOS’ Mudd (the Mudd eps were always my least favorite), I’m hoping DSC’s version of the character is a bit more nuanced and less broad.   It’d be wildly inconsistent for THIS series to suddenly have a flamboyant, overacting space pirate/pimp wannabe like TOS’ Mudd walk right in.

At any rate, Jason Isaacs does look amazing in that uniform.   He looks like a superhero.

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5 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

I’m very curious to see how he interacts with Harry Mudd; either he’ll be antagonized by him (as Kirk was) or...given Lorca’s somewhat morally ambiguous nature, he and Mudd might reach an understanding.

Lorca may see a way to use Mudd and bring him aboard the Discovery.

Also, what are everyone's thoughts on why Lorca is on a shuttle and not the Discovery, leading to his capture? Maybe he was attending Ellen Landry's funeral?

Edited by Enterprise Discovery
Added a question.

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1 hour ago, Enterprise Discovery said:

Lorca may see a way to use Mudd and bring him aboard the Discovery.

Also, what are everyone's thoughts on why Lorca is on a shuttle and not the Discovery, leading to his capture? Maybe he was attending Ellen Landry's funeral?

Wouldn’t that be on the ship, as Spock’s was in STII? 

Not to mention he didn’t strike me as the ‘attending funerals’ type; causing them yes, attending them, no. :giggle:

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8 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Wouldn’t that be on the ship, as Spock’s was in STII? 

Not to mention he didn’t strike me as the ‘attending funerals’ type; causing them yes, attending them, no. :giggle:

I thought about that before asking the question, but then I considered that he may be returning Landry's body to her family, considering the apparent secrecy of the Discovery.

Well, Lorca and Landry seemed to have a closer bond than Lorca and others on the ship, so he may attend her funeral. Or, he was attending a meeting with Katrina Cornwell and was captured upon his return voyage to the Discovery. AfterTrek's clip was the two of them conversing.

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3 minutes ago, Enterprise Discovery said:

I thought about that before asking the question, but then I considered that he may be returning Landry's body to her family, considering the apparent secrecy of the Discovery.

Well, Lorca and Landry seemed to have a closer bond than Lorca and others on the ship, so he may attend her funeral. Or, he was attending a meeting with Katrina Cornwell and was captured upon his return voyage to the Discovery. AfterTrek's clip was the two of them conversing.

I’d say she was more useful to him than close.   He’s an opportunist.  I don’t think he forms bonds so much as useful associations.

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3 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

I’d say she was more useful to him than close.   He’s an opportunist.  I don’t think he forms bonds so much as useful associations.

I don't know. I feel like there's more to the character than that. Something may have happened to Lorca during his fight against the Klingons to cause him to be less open about emotions. He may have lost a lot of friends.

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54 minutes ago, Enterprise Discovery said:

I don't know. I feel like there's more to the character than that. Something may have happened to Lorca during his fight against the Klingons to cause him to be less open about emotions. He may have lost a lot of friends.

And that could also explain why he doesn’t form new bonds; fear of losing close friends. 

He’s a complicated man; he could get eye surgery but chooses not to.  He keeps spoils of war (or at least bodies/specimens of predators), and I don’t think it has to do with scientific curiosity either, since he seems to resent being on a science ship.  

Right now, he’s very much a puzzle and I’m having fun just trying to figure him out.

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I can relate to Lorca so much, the whole eye thing (although there’s no surgery that could help me) and his very clear lack of emotional bonds to the people around him. Whether it was caused by something traumatic OR whether he simply IS this way (I’d love this approach just as much although I don’t think I’d like the “lack of emotional bonding automatically means someone is leaning towards the evil side” undertone) remains to be seen. 

I love complicated men and Gabriel Lorca REALLY fits in there. :happy: 

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51 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

I can relate to Lorca so much, the whole eye thing (although there’s no surgery that could help me)

:(

51 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

Whether it was caused by something traumatic OR whether he simply IS this way (I’d love this approach just as much although I don’t think I’d like the “lack of emotional bonding automatically means someone is leaning towards the evil side” undertone) remains to be seen. 

And that’s the beauty of it; we don’t find out at the end of the hour, like we would in any other Star Trek.  It’s a continuing ambiguity, not meant to be resolved easily.  Love that!

52 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

I love complicated men and Gabriel Lorca REALLY fits in there. :happy: 

I’m really pleased that you found a hook into the new show; it’s great to be discussing it with you. ;)

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10 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

I’m really pleased that you found a hook into the new show; it’s great to be discussing it with you. ;)

I guess I knew Lorca would be it for me - he'd have either sunk the show for me or salvaged it, and I guess, so far, he's salvaged it. ;) 

 

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18 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Right now, he’s very much a puzzle and I’m having fun just trying to figure him out.

Well, we're going to know more after tonight's new episode.

12 hours ago, Mr.Picard said:

(although there’s no surgery that could help me)

I hope that there is eventually a way to help your eyes.

11 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

And that’s the beauty of it; we don’t find out at the end of the hour, like we would in any other Star Trek.  It’s a continuing ambiguity, not meant to be resolved easily.  Love that!

It's an interesting difference for a Star Trek series. It feels like a film, in many ways.

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Locutus   
On 14/10/2017 at 10:17 AM, Enterprise Discovery said:

Lorca may see a way to use Mudd and bring him aboard the Discovery.

That’s an interesting idea.  I could see him being a little like Neelix was first intended to be interms of being a procurer of things.  Perhaps willing to get things that Lorca wants/needs that Starfleet types would be unwilling to do by using questionable means.  Perhaps more like Garak in “In the Pale Moonlight.”

The Lorca character does not strike me as evil per se, but he has been described as an “ends justify the means” type.  As a result, there is an ethical framework he is operating under, but it is not the framework of high-minded governing principles that we are used to in Starfleet Captains.  It is classic philosophical Trek—pitting Star Trek’s traditional deontologic rule-bound morality against Lorca’s consequentialist view of morality.  

I predict he will come into conflict with Burnham over this fungus creature.  He will see that torturing it to get where he needs to be (literally) will be a justifiable means toward the end of winning the war.  It’s a callback to Captain Ransom from Star Trek: Voyager’s “Equinox.”  Eventually, I see Saru and Burnham overcoming their conflict and coming together on this as Saru seems of the deontological rule-bound mindset despite his fears.  Stammets too could potentially rally behind Burnham maybe even possibly toward a true mutiny (full circle) or perhaps they “let” the creature kill Lorca.  That’s how I’m calling it now.

Edited by Locutus

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4 hours ago, Locutus said:

That’s an interesting idea.  I could see him being a little like Neelix was first intended to be interms of being a procurer of things.  Perhaps willing to get things that Lorca wants/needs that Starfleet types would be unwilling to do by using questionable means.  Perhaps more like Garak in “In the Pale Moonlight.”

The Lorca character does not strike me as evil per se, but he has been described as an “ends justify the means” type.  As a result, there is an ethical framework he is operating under, but it is not the framework of high-minded governing principles that we are used to in Starfleet Captains.  It is classic philosophical Trek—pitting Star Trek’s traditional deontologic rule-bound morality against Lorca’s consequentialist view of morality.  

I predict he will come into conflict with Burnham over this fungus creature.  He will see that torturing it to get where he needs to be (literally) will be a justifiable means toward the end of winning the war.  It’s a callback to Captain Ransom from Star Trek: Voyager’s “Equinox.”  Eventually, I see Saru and Burnham overcoming their conflict and coming together on this as Saru seems of the deontological rule-bound mindset despite his fears.  Stammets too could potentially rally behind Burnham maybe even possibly toward a true mutiny (full circle) or perhaps they “let” the creature kill Lorca.  That’s how I’m calling it now.

Some of your theories could occur. However, I am hoping and I'm sure that others here are, too, that Lorca survives the series. If he doesn't survive Season 1, I'll be hoping that he returns in Season 2, as he is my favorite of the new Star Trek: Discovery characters. A good series finale would be him being an Admiral, with Burnham being promoted to Captain and given her own ship, or both of them in command of a ship, going their separate ways.

I also have a theory that this season will be a full story and the next season could be completely different, going on the anthology rumors. That could be interesting. I just hope that the great characters being written in this new series last.

Spoiler for Star Trek Generations, but Kirk not being around anymore kind of brings a sad note to his other episode and film appearances. The same with Spock and other characters who aren't around anymore. I'd prefer the characters to make it. That way, they could even return in future episodes and/or films.

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Locutus   
1 hour ago, Enterprise Discovery said:

Some of your theories could occur. However, I am hoping and I'm sure that others here are, too, that Lorca survives the series. If he doesn't survive Season 1, I'll be hoping that he returns in Season 2, as he is my favorite of the new Star Trek: Discovery characters. A good series finale would be him being an Admiral, with Burnham being promoted to Captain and given her own ship, or both of them in command of a ship, going their separate ways.

I also have a theory that this season will be a full story and the next season could be completely different, going on the anthology rumors. That could be interesting. I just hope that the great characters being written in this new series last.

Spoiler for Star Trek Generations, but Kirk not being around anymore kind of brings a sad note to his other episode and film appearances. The same with Spock and other characters who aren't around anymore. I'd prefer the characters to make it. That way, they could even return in future episodes and/or films.

For the story to merge, as promised, with the Star Trek and starfleet universe we are familiar with, in my mind, something has to happen with Lorca.  Either he needs to die, to go some other way, or start to see things differently.  He is a very charismatic and nuanced actor/character, but, if I am right about what they are trying to do with the series, TOS era Starfleet does not take kindly to men like Lorca.  On the other hand, Kirk had his “hawkish” moments too, so maybe they will keep him around in the end.  I would not mind that at all.

Edited by Locutus

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1 hour ago, Locutus said:

For the story to merge, as promised, with the Star Trek and starfleet universe we are familiar with, in my mind, something has to happen with Lorca.  Either he needs to die, to go some other way, or start to see things differently.  He is a very charismatic and nuanced actor/character, but, if I am right about what they are trying to do with the series, TOS era Starfleet does not take kindly to men like Lorca.  On the other hand, Kirk had his “hawkish” moments too, so maybe they will keep him around in the end.  I would not mind that at all.

I've thought that he will end up being Garth of Izar. So, tonight's episode was great.

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17 minutes ago, Enterprise Discovery said:

I've thought that he will end up being Garth of Izar. So, tonight's episode was great.

I don’t see that connection.

Captain Garth wasn’t human, he was Izarian.   Lorca is from Earth.  Why would he change his name?  Besides, how would Kirk read about Garth (not Lorca) in the Academy if he was already in Starfleet by then?  In ST’s timeline, Kirk was already a lieutenant serving aboard the Farragut by the time of DSC.   

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Corylea   
On 10/13/2017 at 3:08 PM, Enterprise Discovery said:

That reminds me of another Star Trek character by the name of James T. Kirk. They are somewhat similar and since looked up to Garth of Izar, maybe that theory will end up true. It's interesting how much discussion and theories have come from a series that is, so far, only four episodes in.

Kirk could be a helluva warrior if that was what the situation called for, but he wasn't ONLY a warrior, and in fact, he'd much rather make peace.  He had a silver tongue and could talk (nearly) anybody into anything, and one of the things he was famous for saying was, "We're not going to kill today." 

Remember "A Taste of Armageddon"?  Two planets had been at war for hundreds of years and claimed they couldn't stop the war because they had an instinct to kill.  And Kirk said, "The instinct can be fought.  We're human beings with the blood of a million savage years on our hands, but we can stop it.  We can admit that we're killers, but we're not going to kill today.  That's all it takes!  Knowing that we won't kill today." 

Remember "By Any Other Name"?  A group of beings from another galaxy takes over the Enterprise and reduces the crew to dodecahedrons, except for a very few, in preparation for conquering our galaxy.  Kirk tries to persuade them that if they approach the Federation as friends, they'll be given a planet; they don't have to conquer one.  Towards the end of the episode, Kirk and Rojan (the leader of the aliens) are engaged in a fist fight, and while they're punching each other, Kirk is still trying to persuade Rojan that they don't have to be enemies, they can be friends.

Remember "Arena"?  The Metrons order Kirk and the Gorn captain to fight to the death.  Once Kirk wins the fight, he refuses to give the Gorn the deathblow and tells the Metrons that he won't kill the Gorn, even though he fears that the Metrons may retaliate against him or the Enterprise.

Kirk is often stereotyped as a rash hothead, but he wasn't.  He really, really WASN'T.  A man who can engage in diplomacy during a fistfight is a man who values diplomacy highly. 

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32 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

I don’t see that connection.

Captain Garth wasn’t human, he was Izarian.   Lorca is from Earth.  Why would he change his name?  Besides, how would Kirk read about Garth (not Lorca) in the Academy if he was already in Starfleet by then?  In ST’s timeline, Kirk was already a lieutenant serving aboard the Farragut by the time of DSC.   

They are similar, so a theory could be made that Garth made up a new personality and name for himself after he fell into madness. Perhaps Izar is a battle that he is known for, rather than where he is from. That would make sense as a location and a title.

10 minutes ago, Corylea said:

Kirk could be a helluva warrior if that was what the situation called for, but he wasn't ONLY a warrior, and in fact, he'd much rather make peace.  He had a silver tongue and could talk (nearly) anybody into anything, and one of the things he was famous for saying was, "We're not going to kill today." 

Remember "A Taste of Armageddon"?  Two planets had been at war for hundreds of years and claimed they couldn't stop the war because they had an instinct to kill.  And Kirk said, "The instinct can be fought.  We're human beings with the blood of a million savage years on our hands, but we can stop it.  We can admit that we're killers, but we're not going to kill today.  That's all it takes!  Knowing that we won't kill today." 

Remember "By Any Other Name"?  A group of beings from another galaxy takes over the Enterprise and reduces the crew to dodecahedrons, except for a very few, in preparation for conquering our galaxy.  Kirk tries to persuade them that if they approach the Federation as friends, they'll be given a planet; they don't have to conquer one.  Towards the end of the episode, Kirk and Rojan (the leader of the aliens) are engaged in a fist fight, and while they're punching each other, Kirk is still trying to persuade Rojan that they don't have to be enemies, they can be friends.

Remember "Arena"?  The Metrons order Kirk and the Gorn captain to fight to the death.  Once Kirk wins the fight, he refuses to give the Gorn the deathblow and tells the Metrons that he won't kill the Gorn, even though he fears that the Metrons may retaliate against him or the Enterprise.

Kirk is often stereotyped as a rash hothead, but he wasn't.  He really, really WASN'T.  A man who can engage in diplomacy during a fistfight is a man who values diplomacy highly. 

I only meant that they are somewhat similar in some ways, not all. Kirk and Lorca have a lot of differences, as well.

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12 minutes ago, Enterprise Discovery said:

They are similar, so a theory could be made that Garth made up a new personality and name for himself after he fell into madness. Perhaps Izar is a battle that he is known for, rather than where he is from. That would make sense as a location and a title.

No, if that were true, he’d return to being Lorca after he was ‘cured’ at the end of “Whom Gods Destroy”; not to mention it doesn’t address the fact that Kirk read about Garth’s exploits in the academy at a time he’d be Lorca, not Garth.

Besides, the two characters simply aren’t similar enough for me to buy that theory; mad or not.

 

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2 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

No, if that were true, he’d return to being Lorca after he was ‘cured’ at the end of “Whom Gods Destroy”; not to mention it doesn’t address the fact that Kirk read about Garth’s exploits in the academy at a time he’d be Lorca, not Garth.

Besides, the two characters simply aren’t similar enough for me to buy that theory; mad or not.

 

If it was his middle name, or a nickname, it could work. Still, it's a theory. So far, I'm hoping Lorca and other great characters in this series make it through the series. So, I'm trying to think of ideas of how that could work, since you never see any of there, or hear of them in future series, except for ones that are characters from other Star Trek media. That being said, Star Trek: Enterprise was like that, too. You didn't know who'd be around by the series finale.

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56 minutes ago, Enterprise Discovery said:

So, I'm trying to think of ideas of how that could work, since you never see any of there, or hear of them in future series,

Never bothered me. I mean. Pike, Decker, Archer, April, Kirk, Picard, Garrett, etc. Those were the only captains of note that made a mark, even if they didn't end up as required reading at the Academy?

Nah.

That you never heard of them before doesn't mean the didn't do things that mattered.

There's also the simple truth that the franchise is constantly growing and evolving. 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

Never bothered me. I mean. Pike, Decker, Archer, April, Kirk, Picard, Garrett, etc. Those were the only captains of note that made a mark, even if they didn't end up as required reading at the Academy?

Nah.

That you never heard of them before doesn't mean the didn't do things that mattered.

There's also the simple truth that the franchise is constantly growing and evolving. 

 

 

Well, it's not that I don't think they won't do things that matter. I'd just prefer great characters to make it through their series. Spoilers for the first Star Trek: The Next Generation film, but Kirk not making it out of Star Trek Generations is still a sad moment.

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SPOILERS

SPOILERS

SPOILERS

like, MASSIVE ONES

...

...

...

...

Okay, so we now know more about Lorca's past, most notably HOW he got his eye injury and why he keeps it around.

He blew up his ship rather than letting his crew fall victim to Klingon torture. Like, whoa, Gabe, slow down there. (Kinda reminds me of Jean-Luc deciding to blow up the Enterprise rather than letting half of his crew being tortured to death/experimented on by Nagilum, tho. This is NOT unprecedented, the only difference being that Lorca went through with it while Jean-Luc didn't have to.)

I absolutely ADORE how Lorca dealt with Mudd. Leaving him behind was my favorite scene in the entire episode. :laugh:

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I kept cheering "LEAVE HIM GABE, LEAVE HIM, YOU ARE GONNA DO THIS, AREN'T YOU OH MY GOD YES YOU ARE, DON'T LISTEN TO HIS WHINING ABOUT WANTING TO GET BACK TO STELLA, THIS TOTALLY WON'T MAKE YOU DECIDE TO TAKE HIM WITH YOU, RIGHT OH MY GOD YOU COULDN'T CARE LESS, AND RIGHTFULLY SO - GABE YOU ARE MY HERO" :laugh:

Also, Lorca in that chair. HNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGG excuse me but HNNNNNNGGGGGGGG

LrellLorca.jpg

HNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG did I mention HNNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGG

Sorry.

Also.

This.

I mean how much more OBVIOUS can they make this?

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tumblr_oxwbkedBUY1ve0mxgo3_r1_400.gif 

I squealed in three different languages. I SHIP IT :inlove: 

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Thought you might enjoy this episode; my only worry was that you might squeal so hard you'd sprain something. :P:giggle:

Lorca is less ambiguous now; he makes more sense to me as a character.  That revelation truly put him in context.  When a person loses that much, sometimes they become hardened to the point where they seem unfeeling or uncaring.  

I would to see a flashback of Lorca before the incident.   What kind of man was he then?

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