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Episode 1.4 "The Butcher's Knife Cares Not for the Lamb's Cry" Discussion

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2 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

Lorca is getting a lot of “nope” from Trekkies indeed, no matter if main character or not, a lot of people don’t seem to want a man in charge who doesn’t at least try to represent the “best of humanity”.

I don’t get it - we had so many nice captains, what’s wrong with having one who ISN’T exactly nice? He’s the one person who makes me watch the show at this point - I honestly don’t care about Burnham’s arc at all, I like Lorca’s shady shenanigans much better. 

I’m doing this Star Trek thing completely wrong again, aren’t I... :P 

If Lorca were another cookie-cutter nice guy captain, then Burnham would have no arc.  

And I don’t really see how the show could retain Burnham as a lead if we had a captain who was a clone of Jean-Luc Picard or Archer.   And we already had a nice captain with Georgiou, and the audience seemed to love her.  If the show hadn’t killed her off, or if the captain on the new ship was just like her then I don’t see how the series could keep its promise of a first officer-centric show.  

The audience would automatically gravitate towards the captain.

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3 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

If Lorca were another cookie-cutter nice guy captain, then Burnham would have no arc.  

And I don’t really see how the show could retain Burnham as a lead if we had a captain who was a clone of Jean-Luc Picard or Archer.   And we already had a nice captain with Georgiou, and the audience seemed to love her.  If the show hadn’t killed her off, or if the captain on the new ship was just like her then I don’t see how the series could keep its promise of a first officer-centric show.  

The audience would automatically gravitate towards the captain.

Did you just call Jean-Luc “cookie cutter nice”? *Picard glare* :P 

Nah seriously, you’re right. If Lorca was nice then Burnham wouldn’t exactly have much of an arc other than “I forgive you for what you’ve done, now, here are a few tiny missions for you to prove your worthiness, after that you’ll get your rank back”. The show could still focus on her but the audience would gravitate towards the captain indeed - they certainly did so with Georgiou.

I really adored Georgiou, too. I guess I did THAT one right, lol. But I still like Lorca better. I’m definitely not on Burnham’s side nor do I gravitate towards her - I want to see more of Lorca being shady and find out WHY he is this way, what really makes him tick, etc etc. Doing it all wrong, naturally, I know I’m supposed to be all over Burnham and her empathy for Ripper and her FEELS for Georgiou’s gift... but all I want is more Lorca and more ready room Tribble sounds. (But then that’s why I keep telling people I’m not a Trekkie, haha.) 

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53 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

Did you just call Jean-Luc “cookie cutter nice”? *Picard glare* :P 

Nah seriously, you’re right. If Lorca was nice then Burnham wouldn’t exactly have much of an arc other than “I forgive you for what you’ve done, now, here are a few tiny missions for you to prove your worthiness, after that you’ll get your rank back”. The show could still focus on her but the audience would gravitate towards the captain indeed - they certainly did so with Georgiou.

I really adored Georgiou, too. I guess I did THAT one right, lol. But I still like Lorca better. I’m definitely not on Burnham’s side nor do I gravitate towards her - I want to see more of Lorca being shady and find out WHY he is this way, what really makes him tick, etc etc. Doing it all wrong, naturally, I know I’m supposed to be all over Burnham and her empathy for Ripper and her FEELS for Georgiou’s gift... but all I want is more Lorca and more ready room Tribble sounds. (But then that’s why I keep telling people I’m not a Trekkie, haha.) 

Exactly. It's also probably going to be a while before she receives any kind of rank, perhaps the one she gets back is ensign for starters. I mean, it took a full episode before Lorca enlists her as part of the crew, and even so, she has no rank, so even Cadet Tilly outranks her. There's clearly no magic "reset button" going on here, which is a good thing.

It's also nice to see a captain who is potentially off his rocker as the main one instead of one being high in moral fiber (maybe with the exception of Archer, and Janeway on occassions e.g. "Tuvix" and "Equinox"). These were the chances that Voyager didn't take, nor did Enterprise (with the exception of the Xindi arc and fourth season).

As with Georgiou's fate (of being eaten), I can easily see that with Klingons.

I give the writers kudos about Ripper being a much bigger version of an actual Earth organism.

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Lorca is a great character, superbly played by Isaacs. He doesn't have to be nice to be engaging. Equally, he is the character who enables Burnham's arc - and possible rehabilitation. It's a whole new way of doing Star Trek.

5 minutes ago, Rusty0918 said:

 

It's also nice to see a captain who is potentially off his rocker as the main one instead of one being high in moral fiber (maybe with the exception of Archer, and Janeway on occassions e.g. "Tuvix" and "Equinox"). These were the chances that Voyager didn't take, nor did Enterprise (with the exception of the Xindi arc and fourth season).

 

Yup, this.

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57 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

Lorca is a great character, superbly played by Isaacs. He doesn't have to be nice to be engaging. Equally, he is the character who enables Burnham's arc - and possible rehabilitation. It's a whole new way of doing Star Trek.

Honestly, no other Trek captain has captivated me right from the start like Lorca has. I was hoping he would be as “unusual” as Isaacs said and that this wasn’t a clever marketing strategy to make people watch the show... and they sure didn’t disappoint. 

It is a whole new way of doing Trek indeed, and I for one welcome it. I just wish they went down a different route about Lorca’s fate. Burnham will most likely get rid of him one way or another... but who knows, maybe Trek will surprise us once again here as well. 

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2 hours ago, Mr.Picard said:

Did you just call Jean-Luc “cookie cutter nice”? *Picard glare* :P 

i-didnt-do-it.gif :P

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20 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

Honestly, no other Trek captain has captivated me right from the start like Lorca has. I was hoping he would be as “unusual” as Isaacs said and that this wasn’t a clever marketing strategy to make people watch the show... and they sure didn’t disappoint. 

It is a whole new way of doing Trek indeed, and I for one welcome it. I just wish they went down a different route about Lorca’s fate. Burnham will most likely get rid of him one way or another... but who knows, maybe Trek will surprise us once again here as well. 

Well, we simply don't know yet, and the fact that we're talking about it this much is a good sign...!

Lorca seems to be a narcissist, placing himself at the center of all things, but that's what makes him both interesting and compelling. I actually also buy that as a more obvious characteristic in a charismatic leader than, say the moral stature of Picard (but you know, Jean-Luc is my favorite captain too). *

For that matter, Burnham certainly seems to have some narcissitic qualities, too, although she's certainly more empathetic and switched on to a wider moral universe, one that Lorca doesn't seem to be. Or wants to be. Or yet shows himself to be.

Saru is very likeable, and sweet, but somewhat paranoid. Although the poor dear seems evolved to be that way as a survival mechanism.

Stamets seems like the most obvious pillar of morality in the show so far, a thoughtful guy under great pressure and not enjoying the situation he's in but still trying to do his best. He's prickly and short-tempered when irritated, but with good reason - reckon he works harder than most to remain true to his principles.

Sylvia Tilly seems loyal, warm and honest, but might be a darker horse than we first think.

I'm still kind of looking for Lt. Ash Tyler played by Shazad Latif, who I know is on this show but whom I've barely registered, which is weird, 'cause i like that actor.

Landry's dead. D-E-D, dead. I wonder if Tyler is her replacement?

There are some interesting backgrounders, like Keyla the helmsman (navigator?) who also survived the Shenzhou, and cyborg (non-Borg) Airiam, but I guess we have to wait to see if their roles will be expanded much.

 

*Kirk was narcissistic, yet self-aware and often that tendency was tempered with self-depracating humor (not in the JJverse movies so much) and a dedication to safety of ship and crew. Sisko was a terrifying and admirable combination of being a great and dedicated single father, a paragon of virtue and a warrior who'd absolutely do what he had to if it came down to it. None of that was contradictory, in the final analysis - he's perhaps the most layered of all the captains. Janeway was just loony-tunes, and written to work with whatever plot or moral dilemma came along that week. Archer also varied quite a bit in characterization (no fault of the actors, that was how they were scripted), although he cohered quite a bit in seasons 3 and 4 of Enterprise.

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3 hours ago, Mr.Picard said:

I don’t get it - we had so many nice captains, what’s wrong with having one who ISN’T exactly nice? He’s the one person who makes me watch the show at this point - I honestly don’t care about Burnham’s arc at all, I like Lorca’s shady shenanigans much better. 

I don't think a Captain has to be this amiable paragon. I think, to be Starfleet you have to try to do the right thing most of the time. Indeed, Lorca's not going to care about the Tardigrade  because if he can use that creature to save countless lives, so what?

Isn't that just, "The needs of the many..." I don't know that I agree with it, but there's a valid argument that it's "the right thing" on some level.

It's arguably not a thing any of the other captains would do, but that's what makes him interesting to me.

 

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1 hour ago, prometheus59650 said:

I don't think a Captain has to be this amiable paragon. I think, to be Starfleet you have to try to do the right thing most of the time. Indeed, Lorca's not going to care about the Tardigrade  because if he can use that creature to save countless lives, so what?

Isn't that just, "The needs of the many..." I don't know that I agree with it, but there's a valid argument that it's "the right thing" on some level.

It's arguably not a thing any of the other captains would do, but that's what makes him interesting to me.

 

Lorca just interprets things in a way no other captain (not even Sisko) has interpreted them before. And I like that approach. And I like characters like him, characters who are ruthless and egocentric and sneaky and cunning and manipulative... I love that Trek has (finally) put such a character in command of the starship on which the show is set. I’m willing to overlook quite a few plot holes and bumpy scenes and whatnot for a character like Lorca. He steals the show for me because it’s such a fresh approach. I get it that he’s only there to advance Burnham’s story but hey, as long as this leads to lots of scenes with him, it’s all fine with me. Haha.

Hmm. I really need to create a Lorca appreciation topic at some point, methinks... :laugh: 

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7 hours ago, Mr.Picard said:

Hmm. I really need to create a Lorca appreciation topic at some point, methinks... :laugh: 

You're itching, to. I can tell. :)

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Just now, prometheus59650 said:

You're itching, to. I can tell. :)

I am. I mean I can't gush all over Lorca in every Discovery thread, now can I. :laugh:I'm doing the same with Jean-Luc when it comes to TNG, granted, but he's a special case

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10 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

I am. I mean I can't gush all over Lorca in every Discovery thread, now can I. :laugh:I'm doing the same with Jean-Luc when it comes to TNG, granted, but he's a special case

And I do appreciate the approach.  And some captains are never going to have their autobiographies be required reading. Some are just...non-politic workhorses who got the job done and nobody maybe asks the questions they should have, because, well, non-politic, low-profile workhorse got the job done and, when push comes to shove the public morality and private morality of the questioners are just different enough so that those people don't care so long as the spotlight isn't on.. 

Edited by prometheus59650

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Rekha Sharma .... killed off in a cheap...stupid character moment. A sci-fi actress who did wonderful on BSG wasted that way? Wow ...

giphy.gif

 

 

Edited by The Founder

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