Corylea

Episode 1.4 "The Butcher's Knife Cares Not for the Lamb's Cry" Discussion

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Corylea   

Wow.  Wow, wow, wow. 

This reminded me SO much of "The Devil in the Dark," in the best possible way. Understanding is more important than weapons. Even if what you want to do is kill Klingons, understanding is still more important than weapons. 

That's a message that's real Star Trek. Tonight was the first episode that truly felt like Trek to me, but boy, did it ever! Thanks so much, Discovery team, for giving me an episode that was so Trekkian that it made me tear up a little. :-)

I'm so excited I feel like running around in circles.  Somebody talk about the episode, quick! :P

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Agree. I've been puzzling over how fans have said these characters are not the Starfleet we know and love, especially Burnham. But really they are. Especially Burnham. Her dialogue is this episode was not only deeply Trek, it was also carried deep political overtones for the present day--which is of course also deeply Trek. It's all coming together very nicely.

One of the things I love about Burnham is that she uses her intelligence and her personal perspective to solve puzzles and problems. We've gotten so used to characters pantomiming this process--when all that actually transpired is they spouted some technobabble and the problem was magically solved. I hope they are able to keep this up.   

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Now, I'm guessing, but I think Lorca and Burnam will but heads over the creature.

Good episode all around. Militarism with the creature got them precisely nowhere. Understanding did.

Now, of course, it's a slave and that has to be dealt with. And Lorca isn't going to care.

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This is what it feels like, friends, to have Star Trek back again. In case you have forgotten this feeling or have not experienced it in many many years--this is what it feels like. Glorious. 

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Corylea   

Yes, Prometheus, I agree -- Burnham is not going to stand for enslaving a sentient creature, especially since using it seems to be both painful and debilitating to the creature.  And Lorca won't care, as long as it will help them win the war.

Will the creature die, leaving them stranded, so Burnham can say, "I told you so"?  Will Burnham commit mutiny again?  Whatever happens, I'm now feeling as if we're in good hands, so I'm looking forward to the ride.

I have to say it was nice to see the end of Landry.  You're studying the creature BECAUSE it's impervious to phasers, and you thought you could control it with a phaser?  Say what?

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4 minutes ago, Corylea said:

Yes, Prometheus, I agree -- Burnham is not going to stand for enslaving a sentient creature, especially since using it seems to be both painful and debilitating to the creature.  And Lorca won't care, as long as it will help them win the war.

Will the creature die, leaving them stranded, so Burnham can say, "I told you so"?  Will Burnham commit mutiny again?  Whatever happens, I'm now feeling as if we're in good hands, so I'm looking forward to the ride.

I have to say it was nice to see the end of Landry.  You're studying the creature BECAUSE it's impervious to phasers, and you thought you could control it with a phaser?  Say what?

This might be why the spore drive is never used again the the franchise. But can they keep it going for the rest of the series, or will it only last this season? Love that DSC keeps us guessing. 

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Corylea   
16 minutes ago, Justin Snead said:

One of the things I love about Burnham is that she uses her intelligence and her personal perspective to solve puzzles and problems. We've gotten so used to characters pantomiming this process--when all that actually transpired is they spouted some technobabble and the problem was magically solved. I hope they are able to keep this up.   

I adored it when Ripper was on a rampage, and she told the computer to turn the lights in the room up to maximum so that it would go back into the darkness of the pen.  That was very quick thinking on her part and a nice way of SHOWING us that she's intelligent and a competent officer and not just TELLING us that she is (which is what the first three episodes mostly did).

Of course the whole thing where she figured out what the creature was and what it could do was lovely, but the "turn the lights up" thing only took a moment, and yet it showed us so much.

It seemed weird at first that Lorca would have a xenoanthropologist analyzing the composition of the creatures claws, since she's not the right specialty for that, but as it turned out, someone who could understand Ripper in context was exactly what they needed.

Edited by Corylea

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13 minutes ago, Corylea said:

You're studying the creature BECAUSE it's impervious to phasers, and you thought you could control it with a phaser?  Say what?

To be blunt, she got what she asked for. I don't have a lot of sympathy for stupid.

 

9 minutes ago, Justin Snead said:

This might be why the spore drive is never used again the the franchise. But can they keep it going for the rest of the series, or will it only last this season? Love that DSC keeps us guessing. 

My thinking is...the season.

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5 minutes ago, Corylea said:

I adored it when Ripper was on a rampage, and she told the computer to turn the lights in the room up to maximum so that it would go back into the darkness of the pen.  That was very quick thinking on her part and a nice way of SHOWING us that she's intelligent and a competent officer and not just TELLING us that she is (which is what the first three episodes mostly did).

Of course the whole thing where she figured out what the creature was and what it could do was lovely, but the "turn the lights up" thing only took a moment, and yet it showed us so much.

It seemed weird at first that Lorca would have a xenoanthropologist analyzing the composition of the creatures claws, since she's not the right specialty for that, but as it turned out, someone who could understand Ripper in context was exactly what they needed.

I totally missed that about the lights. Which is a good reason to watch a second time. I get the Show-dont'-tell idea, but I feel like previous eps did show her intelligence, bravery, craftiness very well. And the fact that characters were telling us about Burnham was necessary because we needed to know how she was viewed by those characters to better understand their relationship. In any case, the writers have put Burnham on a slow boil for us. Not like Kirk or Picard where we get everything about them in one episode. We have to get to know her. Some fans like me loved her at hello, but others very much did not. It's all good. We are all falling down this rabbit hole together.  

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43 minutes ago, Corylea said:

Wow.  Wow, wow, wow. 

This reminded me SO much of "The Devil in the Dark," in the best possible way. Understanding is more important than weapons. Even if what you want to do is kill Klingons, understanding is still more important than weapons. 

That's a message that's real Star Trek. Tonight was the first episode that truly felt like Trek to me, but boy, did it ever! Thanks so much, Discovery team, for giving me an episode that was so Trekkian that it made me tear up a little. :-)

I'm so excited I feel like running around in circles.  Somebody talk about the episode, quick! :P

^

Agreed, 100%.

This one truly saw a flickering of the old soul of Star Trek; and rather than feel like a sarcastic “it’s about time”, it felt more like a reward for some patience.

I’m thinking this show will emerge from the shadow of its dark beginnings (deliberately so, I might add) and reward its audience later on.  

And I’m enjoying the slow revelation to light; it’s an evolution, as well as a deconstruction, of what goes into making Star Trek Star Trek

 

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Integral   

Another average episode which benefited from some much needed lighter moments for most characters; especially the engineer who in the third episode came off as super annoying and arrogant.

But the stupidity of it all is killing me and this series.

 

SPOILERS:

1. The security officer gets out a phaser rifle to shoot the creature even though phaser fire doesn't work, and then she DIES! Dumbest death ever.

2. They want a claw or a piece of the creature for weaponry and armour. How about using the transporter and RIPPING it off the creature?

3. The pale Klingon commands a cloaked ship and yet the other Klingon leaders never bothered to get the cloaking device until now. Why did they wait for six months?

4. The last will and testament of the dead Captain Georgiou is in this big clunky box which pings every half minute- dumb, obvious symbolism. A Padd and a gift-wrapped telescope would have sufficed.

5. That spore drive... Ugh... A mushroom-powered transwarp drive... :giggle::giggle:

6. The creature is like some kind of spore-drive magnet- GROAN!

7. Burnham clearly doesn't understand animals, just because an animal becomes nice after feeding it doesn't mean there is no further aggression or aggravating behaviour. Apparently the creature just needs to be fed and its as docile as a kitten...

8. Why didn't the scanners spot the connection between the creature, the spores and the spore drive?

9. Burnham continues to remain insufferable and stubborn, if there was actually one moment where she follows the advice of someone else instead of being so impulsive. All I'm getting from this character is that she hast to take insane risks and simply lucks out- except when Captain Georgiou died. This characterization is head-banging infuriating!

10. This was a comment I noticed on Youtube BUT- Star Fleets Discovery uses robotic animal nipple clip torture to drive the ship now!????

 

To quote Kim Jong Il from Team America: Why is everyone so _______ stupid?

 

The sooner this series ditches the Klingon war and does something else the better. And no more spore-drive!

In fact don't ever, ever try sci-fi again. Seriously... Spore drive...

Edited by Integral

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1. She thought it was anesthetized. She was in error. 

3. For the crew to starve so someone could come in and get the cloak and a whole bunch of loyalty (i.e. political power) in the bargain, and all it costs them is some food?

7. If that was all she had done to determine the animal was docile, you might have a point. The crew of the Glenn provoked it. Landry provoked it. And she put stock in Saru. If his autonomic responses say that this thing is not a threat, then, hell, I'd trust it, too. She made a reasonable assumption based on available evidence.

8. Because it's pretty clear that they still barely understand how any of it works.

34 minutes ago, Integral said:

The sooner this series ditches the Klingon war and does something else the better. And no more spore-drive!

In fact don't ever, ever try sci-fi again. Seriously... Spore drive...

Again, it's seriously no dumber than 80% of Trek science over 50 years.

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Integral   
30 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

1. She thought it was anesthetized. She was in error. 

3. For the crew to starve so someone could come in and get the cloak and a whole bunch of loyalty (i.e. political power) in the bargain, and all it costs them is some food?

7. If that was all she had done to determine the animal was docile, you might have a point. The crew of the Glenn provoked it. Landry provoked it. And she put stock in Saru. If his autonomic responses say that this thing is not a threat, then, hell, I'd trust it, too. She made a reasonable assumption based on available evidence.

8. Because it's pretty clear that they still barely understand how any of it works.

Again, it's seriously no dumber than 80% of Trek science over 50 years.

We have a big, nasty, violent creature which at the time had unpredictable behaviour. Saru's neck mandibles -- whatever they are -- are instinctual, so they're gonna be way out of his head. So what does Saru's neck mandibles know that everyone doesn't?

How can Saru's neck mandibles not stick out in fear/caution if Saru himself is feeling cautious/afraid/concerned?

Am I making any sense here?

You can't explain away this level of dumb.

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7 minutes ago, Integral said:

We have a big, nasty, violent creature which at the time had unpredictable behaviour. Saru's neck mandibles -- whatever they are -- are instinctual, so they're gonna be way out of his head. So what does Saru's neck mandibles know that everyone doesn't?

How can Saru's neck mandibles not stick out in fear/caution if Saru himself is feeling cautious/afraid/concerned?

Am I making any sense here?

You can't explain away this level of dumb.

He's cautious/afraid/concerned regarding Burnam. She knows this, commented on it previously, and indeed Saru calls her out at the end of the scene on her fake attempt at apology designed only to remove her as a factor in his threat response, so all there would be left to react to is the creature.

I don't have to explain anything away because it's all literally right there on screen.

Edited by prometheus59650

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2 hours ago, Integral said:

1. The security officer gets out a phaser rifle to shoot the creature even though phaser fire doesn't work, and then she DIES! Dumbest death ever.

It’s called instinct.  Not always right, but it happens.   

And what about  “The Doomsday Machine” when Commodore Decker and the crew repeatedly hit the Planetkiller with full phasers long after they were ruled ineffective?   Ditto the red shirt security guards who were eliminated by Nomad after firing on him in “The Changeling”?  

How soon we Trek fans forget...;)

2 hours ago, Integral said:

5. That spore drive... Ugh... A mushroom-powered transwarp drive... :giggle::giggle:

Yeah, the alchemy of Project Genesis makes a lot more sense. :P

2 hours ago, Integral said:

4. The last will and testament of the dead Captain Georgiou is in this big clunky box which pings every half minute- dumb, obvious symbolism. A Padd and a gift-wrapped telescope would have sufficed.

It was meant to be a SURPRISE (to both Burnham and the audience).  It was one of the best scenes in the episode, and you’re nitpicking the box it came in?  

2 hours ago, Integral said:

7. Burnham clearly doesn't understand animals, just because an animal becomes nice after feeding it doesn't mean there is no further aggression or aggravating behaviour. Apparently the creature just needs to be fed and its as docile as a kitten..

Two words: dog whisperer.   Some people have a natural affinity for animals.  And if she grew up with Spock’s family, she no doubt learned a lot about formidable pets with Spock’s pet sehlat. 

2 hours ago, Integral said:

9. Burnham continues to remain insufferable and stubborn, if there was actually one moment where she follows the advice of someone else instead of being so impulsive. All I'm getting from this character is that she hast to take insane risks and simply lucks out- except when Captain Georgiou died. This characterization is head-banging infuriating!

Captain James T. Kirk was much the same way, if you watch a lot of TOS episodes and the movies.  

From other comments I read online with Burnham, I’m guessing a lot of people just don’t like it when it’s a woman being insufferably stubborn.   Kirk would be seen as ‘standing his ground’; Burnham is just being stubborn. 

1 hour ago, Integral said:

How can Saru's neck mandibles not stick out in fear/caution if Saru himself is feeling cautious/afraid/concerned?

Am I making any sense here?

You can't explain away this level of dumb.

It’s not dumb; he explains it in the show.    It’s the same reason people get goose pimples or shudder and they don’t know why; the fear is coming from a subconscious place.  If he’s aware of the fear, he can deal with it; if he doesn’t know the source of the fear, his ‘sixth sense’ activates. 

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28 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

And what about  “The Doomsday Machine” when Commodore Decker and the crew repeatedly hit the Planetkiller with full phasers long after they were ruled ineffective?   Ditto the red shirt security guards who were eliminated by Nomad after firing on him in “The Changeling”?  

Of course. If Decker had said, "Sulu, bring us in above the maw, then I want you to drop our Z-axis just long enough to pump a half dozen torpedoes into it's maw." it would have been a short episode and Decker would end the episode alive.

Sometimes it's just because, "The script says so."

28 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Yeah, the alchemy of Project Genesis makes a lot more sense. :P

Pfft...you act like converting swirling methane and ammonia into a field of wildflowers would be hard.

 

 

Edited by prometheus59650

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14 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

Pfft...you act like converting swirling methane and ammonia into a field of wildflowers would be hard.

It's all in the wrists, right?  :P

It irks me the short memories ST fans seem to have regarding the franchise's own long abuses of science.  ST uses scientific sounding jargon, but it's only little more scientifically plausible than Jack and the Beanstalk.   Sometimes the show has gotten lucky in forecasting bits of technology (flip phones, iPads, etc) that have been INSPIRED by the show, but it's not as if ST came with blueprints for a functional warp drive or transporter system.   The best the show can do is point the way; engineers and scientists make the final call on whether it's doable or not.  

As for a spore warp drive?  I don't know why that's just 'so silly' for fans to digest.  What the theory suggests is that all matter (including bio matter) is connected with the energy of the universe and that perhaps there's a way to tap into that.  It's really not all that different from E = MC2 really.   The 'fiction' comes from using that interconnectivity to suddenly appear anywhere in the universe.  But really it's no more scientifically ridiculous than Iconian gateways or Guardians of forever. 

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I can see that Discovery is pushing the boundaries of what we're used to in ST, but I gotta say, I'm liking it. Yeah, the spore drive may be something apparently stupid, but when you think about it, it's some damn creative science fiction. There's no point in going for science fiction if you're not gonna get some crazy science going on. This is most refreshing Trek I've seen. All the other shows ware great ( and in many ways better, yes ), but honestly the same old routine was starting to get boring. It's always the same: Transposters, phasers, technobable, photon torphedoes... Where's the science and research? Where is the progress? We never got to see it being made, we just heard about it. This is refreshing, new and it is at it's core, true science fiction.

As for my thoughts on the episode:

a) I actually liked the security chief, she was kimda stupid but I was hoping for some character growth rather than just a brutal kill.

b) Say what you will about Lorca, that guy is badass. He reminds me of Kirk, back on TOS when arguing on the bridge and yelling at your officers was still part of the job.

c) Even thoiugh I like the spore drive thing... Having the creature "interface" with the ship like that felt a bit too much for me. Spore drive could actually be a thing, it makes sense if you accept the fictional science they're working on, but to interface a organic creature with a ship's engine ( plus the fact that the creature was from the Glenn, that was a more advanced ship, with their own technology going on ), it felt awkward, but I can overlook it.

d) Don't care about the Klingon's look, but they don't seem to act like Klingons so far, which bothers me. They look more like savages. Let's not forget that while klingons ware violent, they also had a religion, and meditation, and respect for their opponents as warriors that fought with honor. Also, what's with those blades? I don't think it's phisically possible for them to cut anything lol

e) Enjoyed the fact that Discovery was creating a new way to "fly" rather than a weapon, and liked that the creature was actually harmeless in the same way.

f) The spore jump effect though... Those are some crazy mushrooms for sure...

g) So far I've enjoyed it and will stick with it for what it is. :thumbup:

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Corylea   
5 hours ago, Integral said:

 Burnham continues to remain insufferable and stubborn, if there was actually one moment where she follows the advice of someone else instead of being so impulsive. All I'm getting from this character is that she hast to take insane risks and simply lucks out- except when Captain Georgiou died. This characterization is head-banging infuriating!

*blink*  It's like we didn't see the same episode.

I saw Burnham's quick thinking in action when she got Ripper back into its pen by telling the computer to turn the lights in the room to maximum.

I saw Lorca and Landry being all "Grr!  Kill, kill," while Burnham calmly went about trying to understand what was going on with Ripper.  And somehow you've cast Burnham's taking the long, slow route to understanding as being impulsive?

I can only conclude that you'd already decided to hate the show, because the Burnham you're seeing sure isn't the one I'm seeing.

 

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Well I just saw the episode myself tonight. As with Commander Landry, I saw her untimely death coming when she was going to mess with that animal.

Corylea, I'm with you. Burnham was definitely open-minded when dealing with that alien watchamacallit from the Glenn. This was a definitely thought-provlking part of the episode.

I liked how nature and tech were symbiotic in this, such as it being used to work the spore drive properly, which was used to fend off the Klingons from that Federation colony. Now I see the reason for the rotating saucer parts and after seeing that, I'm not too taken back by it ;).

OK what happened to the mining colony after the Discovery took care of the Klingon attackers? I kind of feel that they should have returned to render aid and assistance to them after they did the deed, since there were probably injured and dying there. Though I did like the impact of the distress call. That was probably my only gripe about the episode.

And the nice touch at the end with Captain Georgiou's last will and testament. It's really moving and well, it's sad really that Burnham is not in the position that she had hoped.

OK now going into the next episode preview, it is clear that Burnham is not too pleased about "exploiting" this alien creature for use of the spore drive. My guess is considering what's needed and the limitations, Starfleet decided to ditch the technology altogether. In some ways, while I never read the book and saw bits and pieces of the 1984 movie (with Patrick Stewart no less! Also should have been rated R instead of PG-13), it reminded me of "Dune."

That being said, Burnham appears to be on the slow path to redemption. It was her actions that helped save the colony world under Klingon attack. Though I do wonder if her path is going to be like the proverbial game of Chutes and Ladders. Things are not going to go back to where she was before the whole fiasco from the first two episodes just like that, which is a good thing (especially after seeing Cadet-to-Captain promotions in another Trek incarnation eight years before!).

I know some complain that the Discovery interiors are too dark, to which I say: you need to save whatever energy you have on a space vessel. I mean, you want things to be too bright a la how J.J. Abrams wanted it?

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What we saw with the spore tech proves that classic rule of Trek storytelling: you can get away with anything if it's sufficiently geared into the plot and has heart. Seeing Lorca put the the spore drive in action to destroy those Klingon attack ships, after the triumph of Burnham's problem solving with the Tardigrade creature, combined with the fact that we are seeing the show's entire premise--that this ship will be able to go anywhere--being demonstrated, makes it very satisfying when we see the ship spin like a top. 

If it was as simple as a new kind of dilithium crystal that needed to be plugged into the warp core, we would not care. It's the gears of storytelling, and how they fit together, that can make us care, that can make us believe in the realism of an otherwise outlandish concept. There is a lot of comments like: "they didnt have to do it this way" "It didnt have to be a prequel" "Burnham's mentor did not have to be Sarek" "The alien threat did not have to be Klingons." Well, sure, Ok. The fact the remains that Discovery is all of those things. If you get hung up on what the story could have been, you miss the story they are actually telling.  

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Corylea   

I should note that I pause the streaming before the previews of the next episode come on, and I don't watch After Trek.  You only get ONE chance to watch any given episode for the first time, and I don't want any spoilers.  I saw TOS when I was young enough that I honestly don't remember what I thought was going on during the early part of "Amok Time" or how I felt when it was revealed who the Horta was and what her motivations were in "The Devil in the Dark."  But if a preview had said, "Spock must return to Vulcan to mate, or he will die," that would have made the first watching of "Amok Time" a lesser experience than it could have been.  If the preview for "The Devil in the Dark" had said, "A misunderstood mother tries valiantly to protect her brood," that would have ruined the first watching of that episode.  (Of course, I don't expect previews to be THAT heavy-handed, these are just silly examples.)

So no previews for me!  I'm also being very careful about which interviews I read, and I've stopped going to the TrekMovie site entirely, because they had a season-ending spoiler in a headline.  Pooh!

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33 minutes ago, Corylea said:

I should note that I pause the streaming before the previews of the next episode come on, and I don't watch After Trek.  You only get ONE chance to watch any given episode for the first time, and I don't want any spoilers.  I saw TOS when I was young enough that I honestly don't remember what I thought was going on during the early part of "Amok Time" or how I felt when it was revealed who the Horta was and what her motivations were in "The Devil in the Dark."  But if a preview had said, "Spock must return to Vulcan to mate, or he will die," that would have made the first watching of "Amok Time" a lesser experience than it could have been.  If the preview for "The Devil in the Dark" had said, "A misunderstood mother tries valiantly to protect her brood," that would have ruined the first watching of that episode.  (Of course, I don't expect previews to be THAT heavy-handed, these are just silly examples.)

So no previews for me!  I'm also being very careful about which interviews I read, and I've stopped going to the TrekMovie site entirely, because they had a season-ending spoiler in a headline.  Pooh!

OK I won't mention any more previews on episode discussion threads.

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Corylea   
22 minutes ago, Rusty0918 said:

OK I won't mention any more previews on episode discussion threads.

Thanks!  :thumbup:

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11 hours ago, Garak the spy said:

I can see that Discovery is pushing the boundaries of what we're used to in ST, but I gotta say, I'm liking it. Yeah, the spore drive may be something apparently stupid, but when you think about it, it's some damn creative science fiction. There's no point in going for science fiction if you're not gonna get some crazy science going on. This is most refreshing Trek I've seen. All the other shows ware great ( and in many ways better, yes ), but honestly the same old routine was starting to get boring. It's always the same: Transposters, phasers, technobable, photon torphedoes... Where's the science and research? Where is the progress? We never got to see it being made, we just heard about it. This is refreshing, new and it is at it's core, true science fiction.

^
This.  Exactly.

Transporters are every bit as ‘fantasy’ as spore drive, but over 50 years later we accept it as part of ST’s universe.   The idea of a machine that literally disintegrates you and somehow magically keeps you alive to arrive at a destination long enough for you to ‘cool you down’ into your exact form is utterly preposterous.   If any machine bombards you with energy to tear you apart at the atomic level?  You’re dead.   End of story.  And the Heisenberg uncertainty principle puts the kibosh on it as well (Heisenberg compensators notwithstanding).  When scientists talk about teleporting atoms in labs today, they’re talking only about sending an atom’s atomic information; not the atom itself.   Big difference. 

Spore drive is so out-of-the-box sounding that I welcome it; it’s something new that we’ve not seen before.   That alone perks my interest. 

And I’m guessing there’s a reason we don’t see it in TOS or later incarnations of ST. 

8 hours ago, Corylea said:

Thanks!  :thumbup:

Good point.

 

Let’s all make sure we’re putting SPOILER ALERTS with any new information, okay?  :thumbup:

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