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Rusty0918

What do you NOT want to see in Discovery?

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This is an interesting question. What do you not want to see in Discovery?

Here are some of what I do NOT want to see: Borg, Q, Ferengi, bizarre transporter malfunctions, not-so-great-moments-in-technobabble

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Technobabble is my biggest thing.

 

Want to avoid a Klingon ship hunting you? I'd love to see you slowly weaving an asteroid field for 15 minutes at low power to get yourself lost in the debris field.

 

I would rather not see:

"Captain, I think I can tie the phaser collimator directly into the EPS grid. The more sensitive phase discriminators in the phaser control system could help me fine tune the frequencies the main deflector dish produces, so we COULD create a makeshift cloaking device."

Which, of course, works.

 

No, thank you.

 

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Agree on a minimum of technobabble.  

Other things I’d rather not see:

Agree about not making transporter malfunction stories a crutch.   But...I would be okay with an occasional transporter malfunction (ala TMP) if only to remind viewers that it is a potentially very dangerous piece of equipment.

No cameos from young Kirk or Spock; or at least not anytime soon (if at ALL).   I’d hope they’d do as TNG did; find your OWN footing as your own series, and THEN you can throw in some TOS character guest starring roles (maybe).  It’s already more than enough that Sarek and Harry Mudd are on the show; we don’t need to subvert the whole thing right out from under the new cast.   Explore these NEW characters; I find them appealing enough.   If you show the Enterprise?  Show her exterior only, or even a quick visual communication with Capt. Pike (Bruce Green could still play him since this is the prime timeline where the character is alive).  But NO on Kirk or Spock (or even Bones).   "This isn’t your dad’s Star Trek," right?  Well, then say it like mean it.

Don’t have Michael Burnham take over the ship right anytime soon, either; I don’t know if her arc is to take over (eventually?) from Capt. Lorca, but I’d hope that would be something of an end goal, not a mid-season thing.  And I love the idea of a non-captain centric show; so I say let them really EXPLORE what it means to NOT be the captain. 

I hope that Culber and Stamets are shown to be a regular couple, and not some overly-idealized version of a same-sex couple.   Make them real; the passion and the disagreements (like any other couple).  ST has a long history of not doing realistic adult relationships well; hope they don’t screw this one up.

Time travel (again, at least not right away; TOS was supposed to chronicle Starfleet’s first encounters with time travel, but ENT kinda screwed that one up...).

The Borg.   They’ve had appearances on three series and a movie.  Too early anyway...

Easy on the holographic interfacing control panels, etc.  (I realize that we probably WILL have holographic interfaces long before the 23rd century but this IS supposed to be a prequel to TOS...).    This is a minor nit, but I’d prefer they just go easy on this sort of thing...

Ditch TNG’s rules about the human characters not ever being in conflict with each other.  I don’t know where Roddenberry came up with this ‘perfected humanity’ thing, but it’s a writer’s straight jacket.  There was conflict aplenty in TOS and this show is 10 years previous to TOS, so let them be in occasional conflict. 

No cameos from Picard’s ancestors; none of Picard’s family had ever ventured beyond the Solar system before Jean-Luc, so unless the DSC crew visit a French vineyard or the Martian colonies?  No Picards (and I say this as a JLP fan).

 

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scenario   

I don't mind things like technobabble or transporter malfunctions if its based on the plot. Like in the doomsday machine where the transporter isn't working right because the ship has taken a beating or if they establish that the transporters won't work on this planet right from the beginning. If the technobabble is right up front and kinda the point of the episode rather than a pulling a rabbit out of the hat near the end I don't mind it. An away team is sent to get a widget to fix the iidiif device. 

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4 minutes ago, scenario said:

I don't mind things like technobabble or transporter malfunctions if its based on the plot. Like in the doomsday machine where the transporter isn't working right because the ship has taken a beating or if they establish that the transporters won't work on this planet right from the beginning. If the technobabble is right up front and kinda the point of the episode rather than a pulling a rabbit out of the hat near the end I don't mind it. An away team is sent to get a widget to fix the iidiif device. 

Transporters that are simply damaged and don't work don't count. I was talking about freak accidents that would send one back in time, or some other bizarre thingamajig, not just simply being damaged and not being able to operate.

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7 minutes ago, Rusty0918 said:

Transporters that are simply damaged and don't work don't count. I was talking about freak accidents that would send one back in time, or some other bizarre thingamajig, not just simply being damaged and not being able to operate.

I agree with that completely. A transporter sending someone back in time totally out of the blue is lazy writing. On the other hand, that's how we met bearded Spock.  It's just too overused. A transporter not working after the ship takes a beating is a natural situation. A transporter malfunction that comes out of the blue was used several times in TOS and is an old plot device now. 

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I agree with Vie's points, especially on the relationships. If they wuss out and take the Will and Grace, Sex in the City easy route, it will be just pandering and boring. This goes for conflict also. Use it sparingly, not like the bickering on Orville, which has improved a little. Make the couples believable, whatever gender. Don't just start like Big Bang Thory with nerdy awkward people and then decide to turn them into family men, and have them become model socialites. That too would be boring. Also do not introduce bad plot devices, such as them wanting children, or some relative who comes aboard as a drunk or addict or something. They should be a bit more above and beyond such things. It's not interesting to have literal parallels to today.

I would add to that, do not do episodes to shoehorn in tie ins to pop culture or movies. TNG did this three times, and it was utterly silly. They had a 1980s Sherlock Holmes series, so they had Data be Holmes. Cute once, not several times. They had a soon to be hit Robin Hood movie, so they did a holodeck Robin Hood episode. Turns out that the Paramount Robin Hood remake tanked that year. Back then it took 7 days from script to screen to make an episode. They knew.

DS9 also did this but a bit subtler, and it's still odd. The strangest of this, and it is canon, is the Cheers reference in the bar. Norm, or Morn, and because it was NBC they could not call him Norm. They were UPN then.

Cute referenced to Man from Uncle and James Bond were fine because they weren't as blatant, although Vic Fonataine clearly being Frank Sinatra or someone like him, was boring after awhile. Don't do that. It instantly dates the show.

Having a holodeck this soon might be retconning, as the TNG universe seem,ed amazed by them. TAS did one, and Ent did one, but really  it shouldn't have been there.

Now I am not against a Q type episode. Q could over explain things, but it might be fun to see a nod to his people. It could however get too over used.

Not to be KM, but they absoultely should not do a political episode where they encounter an orange faced blonde alien preisdent modeleed after, ahem, as that would be extremely dated immediately and would be like making Bush the admiral in Ent, which they kind of did.

Have a message show but not a ham fisted show. Don't have them beam down to a planet where it is so coluse to us ieodologcally that it becomes obvious. "Captainm, this planets is polluted and is being run by an aristocracy. Ha

I will not comment on the command roles in the show as that would be spoilers. Cya later.

Edited by Chimera82405

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2 minutes ago, Chimera82405 said:

Now I am not against a Q type episode. Q could over explain things, but it might be fun to see a nod to his people.

No, thanks.

 

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6 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

No, thanks.

 

Ha. I suppose I do too much on bringing Q back, aye? Ha. No, they're not doing that. Don't worry. They had him in the comics.

I just hope that Stammets does not lay an egg, not that the joke hasn't been done better, on Mork and Mindy, in the 1980s. Off topic, but the late Jonathan Winters was pretty great as Mork and Mindy's 'grandfather er son'. It was a funny gag on the whole 80s sitcom dynamic, but no, Discovery, don't do that.

Edited by Chimera82405

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Well, Q would definitely not fit here, that is unless he mind-wipes the characters every time he comes and visits because the first true contact with the Q came in the TNG pilot episode "Encounter at Farpoint."

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2 minutes ago, Rusty0918 said:

Well, Q would definitely not fit here, that is unless he mind-wipes the characters every time he comes and visits because the first true contact with the Q came in the TNG pilot episode "Encounter at Farpoint."

I'm willing to bet no one in the writer's room has even mentioned him.

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3 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

I'm willing to bet no one in the writer's room has even mentioned him.

You never know. And I hope they never mention the Borg either. Berman and Braga most certainly would consider it, although they don't have a say with Discovery.

 

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I honestly don't see it.

People that have literally watched an episode to verify a Memory Alpha entry rather than take its word for it are not going to start seriously throwing around the Borg or Q.

They sure sound like they are laser focused on the story they want to tell.

 

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The fact that they don't have 20 something stand alone stories to write makes it easier to avoid using stereotypes or falling back to old bad guys like the Borg. They only have to write 15 episodes a year and they can have one or two main storylines per year with a secondary story in some of the shows and a few stand alone episodes. Its a lot different environment than writing 26 stand alone episodes per season. 

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2 hours ago, scenario said:

The fact that they don't have 20 something stand alone stories to write makes it easier to avoid using stereotypes or falling back to old bad guys like the Borg. They only have to write 15 episodes a year and they can have one or two main storylines per year with a secondary story in some of the shows and a few stand alone episodes. Its a lot different environment than writing 26 stand alone episodes per season. 

Agreed. Shorter seasons are not a bad thing in this case.

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Not want 2 C:

Less reliance on canon and continuity for story ideas. I can live with updated and reimagined Klingons with deepened cultural detail, if there's a strong story purpose to that, and the new direction is as sophisticated as promised. But no new takes on Q, Borg, Ferengi, Tribbles, etc. thanks. I hear we're going to get Tribbles though. No cameos of other TOS characters. No ancestors to Lt. Barclays or whomever. No Constitution class ship cameos.  

 

Want 2 C:

More original concepts. Exploration, as per the original remit of Star Trek. Boldly going. Big SF ideas that look at inner as well as outer space. 

 

2B or not 2C, that is the Q. 

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9 hours ago, Chimera82405 said:

I agree with Vie's points, especially on the relationships. If they wuss out and take the Will and Grace, Sex in the City easy route, it will be just pandering and boring. This goes for conflict also. Use it sparingly, not like the bickering on Orville, which has improved a little. Make the couples believable, whatever gender. Don't just start like Big Bang Thory with nerdy awkward people and then decide to turn them into family men, and have them become model socialites

^
From what Cruz Wilson (Dr. Culber, partner of Lt. Stamets) said at Vegas, Lt. Stamets will be a difficult person to love, but Culber sort of knows how to reach him where others fail.  Right off that tells me they're going for a complex, layered relationship rather than an overly-idealized & unrealistic one.    I don’t what you mean by the Will & Grace, Sex in the City route(s)?  I’ve only watched Will & Grave (never seen SITC) and it’s played primarily for comedy; as is Big Bang Theory.   I just don't see their relevance to DSC (?).    

9 hours ago, Chimera82405 said:

Now I am not against a Q type episode. Q could over explain things, but it might be fun to see a nod to his people. It could however get too over used.

I really don’t think they should do a Q episode; that would immediately put this show in the shadow of TNG.  Not a good idea.   Look what a bad fit Q was for DS9.

8 hours ago, prometheus59650 said:

I'm willing to bet no one in the writer's room has even mentioned him.

^ This (re: Q).

29 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

Not want 2 C:

Less reliance on canon and continuity for story ideas. I can live with updated and reimagined Klingons with deepened cultural detail, if there's a strong story purpose to that, and the new direction is as sophisticated as promised. But no new takes on Q, Borg, Ferengi, Tribbles, etc. thanks. I hear we're going to get Tribbles though. No cameos of other TOS characters. No ancestors to Lt. Barclays or whomever. No Constitution class ship cameos.  

I wouldn’t say ‘no’ entirely to a Constitution class cameo; but not right away.   This show (and its ships) need to establish themselves firmly first.   Then maybe (?) down the road we might see the familiar lines of a Constitution class off the port bow, as it prepares to warp away...;)

And yes, I saw the tribble in the promo as well (via CBS AA).   Wish they’d waited on that, or not done it altogether.   * sigh *  I’ll wait to see the full context before I nerd-rage against it...

31 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

More original concepts. Exploration, as per the original remit of Star Trek. Boldly going. Big SF ideas that look at inner as well as outer space. 

From what I understand, that’s supposed to happen (in earnest) after this first season Klingon arc...

32 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

2B or not 2C, that is the Q. 

tumblr_nyqxaw28tk1qa9yc1o1_400.gif  :giggle:

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27 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

Not want 2 C:

Less reliance on canon and continuity for story ideas. I can live with updated and reimagined Klingons with deepened cultural detail, if there's a strong story purpose to that, and the new direction is as sophisticated as promised. But no new takes on Q, Borg, Ferengi, Tribbles, etc. thanks. I hear we're going to get Tribbles though. No cameos of other TOS characters. No ancestors to Lt. Barclays or whomever. No Constitution class ship cameos.  

 

Want 2 C:

More original concepts. Exploration, as per the original remit of Star Trek. Boldly going. Big SF ideas that look at inner as well as outer space. 

 

2B or not 2C, that is the Q. 

Sounds like most people. Yeah, I think I saw a tribble or two in the previews, though I'm not too crazy about them. I hope they're not to be used as a plot device. I remember that stupid contrived scene where McCoy just decides to inject a dead tribble with that "magic blood" stuff (which is how they resurrect Kirk) in STID.

I wouldn't be surprised if we had cameos of other TOS characters though. Maybe not immediately, but perhaps down the line.

I know one thing about TNG was that apart from that reference in "The Naked Now" (which was a takeoff from TOS's "The Naked Time"), Roddenberry wanted to resist mentioning Kirk and company for a while because he wanted TNG to stand out on its own. I think they should do the same thing here, resist mentioning other stuff until down the line. The one thing you don't want to do is inject too much fan-service into the series. I mean they overdid it a lot in ST09 and STID (not so much in STB). And they do it in other series too, which make things get too repetitive. As much as I thoroughly enjoyed "The Force Awakens," the re-use of a Death Star like superweapon and overuse of elements such as that does detract.

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I think that the world that Discovery is set is in more like TOS. The Earth wasn't perfect in TOS just better. I got the feeling that no one starved on Earth anymore and everyone had a comfortable standard of living. There was almost no disease. Crime was almost non existent. But there were conflicts and problems. But comparing an average person on Earth's problems to a first world person living today would be like comparing a rich first world person to an very poor third world persons problem today. 

But off of the Earth, on colonies or dealing with other species was different. Plenty of conflict and problems. 

I don't like the idea of introducing any species that was not seen until later shows. I don't have a problem with TOS era species when it fits the plot. So if they go to a Star Base, I'd like to see a lot of different TOS aliens in the background or maybe even a constitution class ship docked in the setup scene. 

I don't have much problem with introducing minor TOS characters when they fit the plot. If the plot requires them to contact a smuggler, why not use a younger and more risk taking Harry Mudd rather than a new character. Just keep it to a small number a season and make most of them so obscure that no one who is not a Star Trek expert would recognize them. Like if you need a cameo for the doctor on a space station make it the first Dr. in the original pilot or some doctor who was used once. Name one of the Red Shirts on a space station the same as a Red Shirt used in TOS. I wouldn't mind it if it was used sparingly. People on starships go from space station to space station and ship to ship. It would actually be unusual if the people on Discovery never met anyone from the TOS world when they are located near the area the Enterprise traveled in.  

Do not use more than one or two significant characters a year. They've used Mudd, that's one. (I don't count the couple of semi regulars)

So no species that was not in TOS unless it is a completely new species.

No cameo's by major TOS or later series characters or actors until later seasons. 

Minor characters are allowed if they are just part of the background. 

I wouldn't mind old some of the old Star Trek actors playing new Characters if they are aliens under makeup. I'd love to see Jeffrey Combs get a recurring part if he wants it. 

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1 hour ago, Sehlat Vie said:

^
From what Cruz Wilson (Dr. Culber, partner of Lt. Stamets) said at Vegas, Lt. Stamets will be a difficult person to love, but Culber sort of knows how to reach him where others fail. 

 

Sounds familiar to me. Heh. :happy: 

For me personally I guess the question of this thread is the equivalent of "what will NOT make me buy the DVDs for this show":

- War, death, destruction all the time. I get it that these are times we live in and that the show will be dark, but let's not completely lose track of Trek's trademark optimism, shall we.

- Too many endless space battles and a focus on "wow look at these amazing special effects!!!". Yawn? Yawn. 

- Badly written intimate relationships. We had that on every other Trek series, I REALLY REALLY REALLY don't want to see more of it.

- Re-hashing plots from previous shows. At least don't make it too obvious. I'm tired of the whole "hey didn't I see this before somewhere?" thing.

- Disrespecting canon. Bend it when necessary - this needs to be done sometimes, I know that from my own writing adventures - but blatantly ignoring it doesn't help either. This kind of "we need to find a way to have aliens from TNG onwards and come up with really lame excuses as to why they're there" really put me off ENT for a long time. There are enough aliens from the TOS era to use AND they can always invent new ones (just don't make it a Xindi thing plz).

Anyways... those are the biggest and most blatant things that would make me go "no thanks, not gonna bother with those DVDs".

 

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9 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

 

I wouldn’t say ‘no’ entirely to a Constitution class cameo; but not right away.   This show (and its ships) need to establish themselves firmly first.   Then maybe (?) down the road we might see the familiar lines of a Constitution class off the port bow, as it prepares to warp away...;)

I'm not wildly opposed to it or anything; I just don't think it's a good idea too early. And given the design differences between the clean, 60s lines of the original Enterprise and the design of every single ship that followed TOS, respecters of canon on the production side have been trying to square away the differences in their looks ever since. It's a similar sort of problem with things like the design of the Klingons and Romulans. You don't really care or notice when you're watching the original episodes because you're caught up in the story. But when these aspects of their fictional world are addressed, onscreen, in-Universe, you then run the risks of comparisons. The modern updates will always look more sophisticated to our eyes! The one instance I can think of when this really worked is when DS9 did Trials and Tribble-ations and they added these incredibly graceful, oh-so-subtle lines to the Enterprise and the K-7. But when they did the Klingon ship, suddenly it was all bristling with detail, which struck me as a minor misstep. 

Fan service is one thing - mentions, tips of the hat - but anything that puts you out of the reality of the current story being told is a bad idea, IMHO.

Quote

And yes, I saw the tribble in the promo as well (via CBS AA).   Wish they’d waited on that, or not done it altogether.   * sigh *  I’ll wait to see the full context before I nerd-rage against it...

Agreed. 

Quote

From what I understand, that’s supposed to happen (in earnest) after this first season Klingon arc...

 

I still kind of wish they'd have just started there and set this show post-Voyager, but anyway... 

9 hours ago, Rusty0918 said:

Sounds like most people. Yeah, I think I saw a tribble or two in the previews, though I'm not too crazy about them. I hope they're not to be used as a plot device. I remember that stupid contrived scene where McCoy just decides to inject a dead tribble with that "magic blood" stuff (which is how they resurrect Kirk) in STID.

I hated that beyond words. I think that was at the point I knew I was watching a moronic hit parade of the most shallow ideas of what Star Trek is. Terrible movie. 

Quote

I wouldn't be surprised if we had cameos of other TOS characters though. Maybe not immediately, but perhaps down the line.

I know one thing about TNG was that apart from that reference in "The Naked Now" (which was a takeoff from TOS's "The Naked Time"), Roddenberry wanted to resist mentioning Kirk and company for a while because he wanted TNG to stand out on its own. I think they should do the same thing here, resist mentioning other stuff until down the line. The one thing you don't want to do is inject too much fan-service into the series. I mean they overdid it a lot in ST09 and STID (not so much in STB). And they do it in other series too, which make things get too repetitive. As much as I thoroughly enjoyed "The Force Awakens," the re-use of a Death Star like superweapon and overuse of elements such as that does detract.

STB was by far my favorite of the JJverse movies, simply because it felt much more like its own thing - except that it was also the most respectful and celebratory in terms of honoring other iterations of Trek. For example, I found the scene when JJ-Spock opens his predecessor's box of personal effects extremely moving. That, and the scene where Spock tells McCoy of Spock Prime's passing, are examples of modern Trek acknowledging the past in-Universe and using it to great effect for purposes of character development. It absolutely can work if it's done with respect to the characters involved and not as a huge fanwank, as STID played as.  

Edited by Robin Bland

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7 hours ago, Mr.Picard said:

- Re-hashing plots from previous shows. At least don't make it too obvious. I'm tired of the whole "hey didn't I see this before somewhere?" thing.

With over 700 hours of ST in the can this one might be a bit unavoidable.  That said, I think that (with a bit of imagination) they can redress it to where, as you say, it’s not too obvious.  ST has pretty much encountered every type of ‘unknown phenomena’ the writers can think of (even more so if you count TAS), so the trick will be to rejigger it enough to seem fresh and new.  I believe that’s entirely possible.  TNG did so multiple times. 

7 hours ago, Mr.Picard said:

Sounds familiar to me. Heh. :happy: 

lol-duck.gif

2 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

I still kind of wish they'd have just started there and set this show post-Voyager, but anyway... 

Me too, but it is what it is.   I just hope they do it well.

4 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

And given the design differences between the clean, 60s lines of the original Enterprise and the design of every single ship that followed TOS, respecters of canon on the production side have been trying to square away the differences in their looks ever since. It's a similar sort of problem with things like the design of the Klingons and Romulans. You don't really care or notice when you're watching the original episodes because you're caught up in the story. But when these aspects of their fictional world are addressed, onscreen, in-Universe, you then run the risks of comparisons. The modern updates will always look more sophisticated to our eyes! The one instance I can think of when this really worked is when DS9 did Trials and Tribble-ations and they added these incredibly graceful, oh-so-subtle lines to the Enterprise and the K-7. But when they did the Klingon ship, suddenly it was all bristling with detail, which struck me as a minor misstep. 

Fan service is one thing - mentions, tips of the hat - but anything that puts you out of the reality of the current story being told is a bad idea, IMHO.

^ This is very true.

Even in the two-part Mirror ENT episodes in S4, there were little attempts to gloss up the TOS sets by having the graphics move, more subtle lighting schemes, etc.   They also used what appeared to a CGI render of the Trials and Tribble-ations’ Enterprise for the Defiant; with those same, slightly slicker lines to it here and there.   On the surface, it’s very faithful to TOS but if you look REALLY closely...

Okay, I need a life.  :laugh:

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7 hours ago, Mr.Picard said:

 

War, death, destruction all the time. I get it that these are times we live in and that the show will be dark, but let's not completely lose track of Trek's trademark optimism, shall we.

 

THIS - so much. 

2 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Even in the two-part Mirror ENT episodes in S4, there were little attempts to gloss up the TOS sets by having the graphics move, more subtle lighting schemes, etc.   They also used what appeared to a CGI render of the Trials and Tribble-ations’ Enterprise for the Defiant; with those same, slightly slicker lines to it here and there.   On the surface, it’s very faithful to TOS but if you look REALLY closely...

Apparently that was a model of the original 1701 faithfully recreated by Greg Jein, IRRC. All motion control. 

2 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Okay, I need a life.  :laugh:

You and me both! 

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6 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

Apparently that was a model of the original 1701 faithfully recreated by Greg Jein, IRRC. All motion control. 

I think I saw that in the DS9 DVD bonus features; it was a beautiful model!  Jein is a master; he also built the mothership for “Close Encounters of the Third Kind.”  

7 hours ago, Mr.Picard said:

- War, death, destruction all the time. I get it that these are times we live in and that the show will be dark, but let's not completely lose track of Trek's trademark optimism, shall we.

Forgot to quote this earlier on my last post; yes...this!  Absolutely!

 

I don’t mind a war storyline in an episode or two, or even a brief arc, but I don’t want DSC to be ALL ABOUT war.    ST isn’t Battlestar Galactica...

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