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Rusty0918

No reviews of Discovery until first episodes air?

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44 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

I’m sure... to see how ‘right’ they were for preemptively hating it, no doubt. 

Even if it somehow came out to be universally praised as the best Trek ever put to film I suspect a lot of them will hate it anyway because doing so will make them a "special" kind of fan.

Orthodox and pure because they know what "real" Star Trek is.

Edited by prometheus59650

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43 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

Even if it somehow came out to be universally praised as the best Trek ever put to film I suspect a lot of them will hate it anyway because doing so will make them a "special" kind of fan.

Orthodox and pure because they know what "real" Star Trek is.

As Mr Picard calls them, 'gatekeepers.'  Self-proclaimed 'guardians of forever.'   IMO, they fail to heed ST's big message of IDIC; infinite diversity in infinite combinations.  There are as many potential avenues of ST and its storytelling as there are types of ST fans.  

Not all of it is going to resonate with all of fandom.  No biggie.  Maybe the next one will.  The producers/writers are only human and will not please everybody, but it doesn't necessarily make their interpretation of ST less valid than others that have come before.  All I would ask is, 'are they good stories, and do they entertain?' 

But the question of 'is it good Star Trek' is a difficult one because I see ST as a living, evolving thing; it's not static or permanently locked in one form or execution.  Those parameters of what makes it 'good ST' will change a little bit, even if the essential core is still recognizable.

Put it this way; there are many stories from DS9, ENT or even a few from TNG that simply couldn't have been done on TOS; but it doesn't make them 'bad' or 'lesser' ST in any way. 

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1 hour ago, Sehlat Vie said:

 All I would ask is, 'are they good stories, and do they entertain?' 

And that's pretty much the sole point. Do they draw people in so as to make money, which is another gatekeeper problem. They also seem to live under the delusion that because it has a humanitarian message, Trek is a humanitarian venture. "Why not put it on CBS or Netflix? Why are they trying to get me to pay for ANOTHER service?

Because Trek is a product and they want to make money with their own business model, which is their right with what they own.

"Why go after Axanar? Because it was gonna be so much better than their dreck, that's why."

No. Because someone else doesn't get to make bank off what they own. It's just that simple.

It doesn't matter how many of the DVDs you have or conventions you've been to. You're not owed the 25th century or whatever your version of "good "Trek is.

You can watch what they put out or not and that's pretty much the extent of it.

 

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It all depends on whether DSC will be judged as good or not in the long run. Look at TNG - many fans HATED it before it aired and when it began to air because they were determined to hate anything that didn't feature Kirk. But when folks noticed that the show wasn't so bad after all many came around - I've met a LOT of Trekkies who've told me they hated the idea of TNG at first but then saw how good the show actually was and came around to like or even love it. I suspect the same will happen if DSC turns out to be good. 

However, there will also be a certain percentage of fans who will always hate it, no matter what. There are still fans who hate TNG (and everything else that came after it) simply because it isn't TOS and not "pure" enough to be Trek in their eyes. Someone on Twitter put it like this recently when people pointed out the similarities in fandom reactions to TNG and DSC: "Some of us still think TNG is unwatchable". This isn't personal taste or anything, it's mindless bitterness and hate for anything that isn't what they perceive as "true Star Trek" aka TOS. The real question is how large that "purist percentage" is going to be. 

And Axanar plays a big role here indeed - there are a lot of Axanar fans who spread rumors and false information on DSC out of spite because in their eyes CBS "stole our idea and killed our film, we would have been true to Trek and now look at this, we are not going to stand for it". A lot of baseless rumors and false predictions come from the Axanar camp of the fandom - they're a rather determined bunch who readily believe anything negative about DSC that "sources" have "told" them (such as "it is actually produced by JJ Abrams") and are only too happy to spread it. I strongly suspect they will end up in the "we hate the show no matter what" camp, they're too bitter to see things rationally.

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And there's literally no reaching those people that are THAT stuck so there's no reason for CBS to try to cater to or reach them. They should just do what they're going to do and let the chips fall.

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1 hour ago, Mr.Picard said:

It all depends on whether DSC will be judged as good or not in the long run. Look at TNG - many fans HATED it before it aired and when it began to air because they were determined to hate anything that didn't feature Kirk. But when folks noticed that the show wasn't so bad after all many came around - I've met a LOT of Trekkies who've told me they hated the idea of TNG at first but then saw how good the show actually was and came around to like or even love it. I suspect the same will happen if DSC turns out to be good. 

However, there will also be a certain percentage of fans who will always hate it, no matter what. There are still fans who hate TNG (and everything else that came after it) simply because it isn't TOS and not "pure" enough to be Trek in their eyes. Someone on Twitter put it like this recently when people pointed out the similarities in fandom reactions to TNG and DSC: "Some of us still think TNG is unwatchable". This isn't personal taste or anything, it's mindless bitterness and hate for anything that isn't what they perceive as "true Star Trek" aka TOS. The real question is how large that "purist percentage" is going to be. 

And Axanar plays a big role here indeed - there are a lot of Axanar fans who spread rumors and false information on DSC out of spite because in their eyes CBS "stole our idea and killed our film, we would have been true to Trek and now look at this, we are not going to stand for it". A lot of baseless rumors and false predictions come from the Axanar camp of the fandom - they're a rather determined bunch who readily believe anything negative about DSC that "sources" have "told" them (such as "it is actually produced by JJ Abrams") and are only too happy to spread it. I strongly suspect they will end up in the "we hate the show no matter what" camp, they're too bitter to see things rationally.

Just be careful about lumping all the critics of DSC in the same pen of "haters." That's what a lot of defenders of the reboot and its sequels did. There very well may be some legit qualms about the show. I might have some (given a few things that I heard). Using ad hominem smear tactics on people with critiques, no matter how legit they are, is wrong. And again, it casts light on who is truly the "hater" in the argument. I know with ST09, the mainstream media made it out almost to be the greatest thing since sliced bread, or just about. The praise was overwhelmingly glowing (though I have to admit the movie was overrated) and it could have gotten a Best Picture nod - there was a lot of talking about it being up for a Best Picture of the Year deal. This gave defenders of the movie free rein to smear and attack those who weren't fond of the movie. Heck, even Leonard Nimoy jumped in on the smearing by saying anyone who didn't like ST09 was a d**khead.

We shouldn't stoop that low with the "haters" or attack them or smear them or badmouth them. Some of them could be pretty legit folks.

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It simply depends upon why you don't like it.

Despising something sight unseen has zero credibility.

DSC, at this point, is sight unseen.

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4 hours ago, Rusty0918 said:

Just be careful about lumping all the critics of DSC in the same pen of "haters." That's what a lot of defenders of the reboot and its sequels did. There very well may be some legit qualms about the show. I might have some (given a few things that I heard). Using ad hominem smear tactics on people with critiques, no matter how legit they are, is wrong. And again, it casts light on who is truly the "hater" in the argument. I know with ST09, the mainstream media made it out almost to be the greatest thing since sliced bread, or just about. The praise was overwhelmingly glowing (though I have to admit the movie was overrated) and it could have gotten a Best Picture nod - there was a lot of talking about it being up for a Best Picture of the Year deal. This gave defenders of the movie free rein to smear and attack those who weren't fond of the movie. Heck, even Leonard Nimoy jumped in on the smearing by saying anyone who didn't like ST09 was a d**khead.

We shouldn't stoop that low with the "haters" or attack them or smear them or badmouth them. Some of them could be pretty legit folks.

I'm not lumping anyone anywhere - in fact, if I were a Trekkie I would be in the same camp as the ones who are sceptical towards the show. I definitely wouldn't want another prequel and I also wouldn't want to pay for a streaming service (no matter which one, I don't have any because I neither want nor need any) just to watch it. I would actually do the same thing I'm doing now: I would refrain from watching and simply wait for the fandom's overall reaction and then draw my own conclusions (if I were a Trekkie would be slightly more eager to see it though).

Prom is quite correct - the reasons are what's important. I refuse to take people seriously who throw stuff around like "it's too PC". These are not legitimate concerns, they usually involve bigotry and/or racism, and that's just not acceptable to me in any way. Other stuff like "it doesn't look like as if it fits into the era of the timeline they've set it in" IS a more legitimate concern and it is voiced by a lot of reasonable and concerned fans... but people seem to forget that the show hasn't aired yet. They HAVE said they will EXPLAIN these discrepancies. So why not just wait? Why hack it into pieces without knowing the full picture yet? THAT's what's disturbing. Voicing criticism yes, I understand - but always under the assumption of "this just might be explained but I remain wary for now" and not "I hate this forever and always, this looks so bad, this show is going to suck, I haven't seen even one episode but I hate it".

Maybe I'm approaching this from a way too unemotional viewpoint though. I understand that a lot of fans are angry at the moment, they didn't like ENT, the Kelvin Timeline created yet another rift and now they're doing another prequel... I guess an emotional reaction (and sometimes overreaction) towards all of this is somewhat... logical.

 

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11 hours ago, prometheus59650 said:

You can watch what they put out or not and that's pretty much the extent of it.

^  

Yep.

4 hours ago, Mr.Picard said:

I'm not lumping anyone anywhere - in fact, if I were a Trekkie I would be in the same camp as the ones who are sceptical towards the show. I definitely wouldn't want another prequel and I also wouldn't want to pay for a streaming service (no matter which one, I don't have any because I neither want nor need any) just to watch it. I would actually do the same thing I'm doing now: I would refrain from watching and simply wait for the fandom's overall reaction and then draw my own conclusions (if I were a Trekkie would be slightly more eager to see it though).

^
This is a perspective I can respect; the wait-and-see approach.  Not prejudging, just waiting.   There’s a danger in actively slamming the show based on snippets of pre-release footage.  

I remember that sinking feeling I got when I first saw the miserable “Sabotage” trailer for STB that seemed to be all about motorcycles and Beastie Boys.  Luckily that was just a badly cut trailer, and those elements (which were in the film) were much more smartly used than that Michael Bay-ish trailer had me believing.   

But so far, the pre-release stuff I’ve seen for DSC has been pretty good, for the most part.   And having had the opportunity to see the props, costumes, etc up close on two occasions recently, I’m very impressed with the amount of detail, care and love that has gone into this production.    This doesn’t reek of a slapdash effort to throw something out there wth the ST name on it; there may be something real to this... something made with care and artistic integrity.

4 hours ago, Mr.Picard said:

I refuse to take people seriously who throw stuff around like "it's too PC". These are not legitimate concerns, they usually involve bigotry and/or racism, and that's just not acceptable to me in any way.

^
Those people are not to be taken seriously; if they’d even watched ONE episode of TOS (which they pretend to laud so much), they’d realize how hollow their B/S arguments are...

4 hours ago, Mr.Picard said:

Other stuff like "it doesn't look like as if it fits into the era of the timeline they've set it in" IS a more legitimate concern and it is voiced by a lot of reasonable and concerned fans... but people seem to forget that the show hasn't aired yet. They HAVE said they will EXPLAIN these discrepancies. So why not just wait? Why hack it into pieces without knowing the full picture yet? THAT's what's disturbing. Voicing criticism yes, I understand - but always under the assumption of "this just might be explained but I remain wary for now" and not "I hate this forever and always, this looks so bad, this show is going to suck, I haven't seen even one episode but I hate it".

^
This is more legitimate, I agree.  And it rankles some of the fans (like our own Gus), but I too, want to adopt the more patient approach.  I’m not expecting a magic bullet theory that will explain ALL of the seeming discrepancies and anachronisms, but I’m still willing to give the show a try anyway.    Because, for me, ST is about more than ‘does it look like it belongs in The Cage’?   It’s about strong, Star Trek-type stories and characters.   And from what little I’ve seen, it looks like those are the producers’ concerns as well. 

Yes, I kinda wish they hadn’t made it a prequel; prequels are minefields right off the bat... you have to watch every step as not to conflict with the previous backstory, etc. etc.  

So yeah, I agree that they’ve painted themselves into a bit of a corner with that premise.   But that doesn’t mean it can’t still be a pretty paint job.

 

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8 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Yes, I kinda wish they hadn’t made it a prequel; prequels are minefields right off the bat... you have to watch every step as not to conflict with the previous backstory, etc. etc.  

So yeah, I agree that they’ve painted themselves into a bit of a corner with that premise.   But that doesn’t mean it can’t still be a pretty paint job.

Well, if anything, "Rogue One" is proof that prequels CAN work. One of the problems with Enterprise wasn't the prequel thing, but that Berman and Braga were behind it most of the way when they should have quite while both of them were ahead.

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3 hours ago, Rusty0918 said:

Well, if anything, "Rogue One" is proof that prequels CAN work. One of the problems with Enterprise wasn't the prequel thing, but that Berman and Braga were behind it most of the way when they should have quite while both of them were ahead.

I agree that R1 was one of the better prequels, largely because it was meticulously designed to link up with SW77.  It worked as a one-off idea, but a R1 TV series would've been highly problematic. 

And while I enjoyed much of ENT (it gets better for me upon rewatching), I agree that it had problems as well.  At any rate, it'll be interesting to see a prequel done under new leadership.  What will that yield, I wonder?

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1 hour ago, Sehlat Vie said:

I agree that R1 was one of the better prequels, largely because it was meticulously designed to link up with SW77.  It worked as a one-off idea, but a R1 TV series would've been highly problematic. 

And while I enjoyed much of ENT (it gets better for me upon rewatching), I agree that it had problems as well.  At any rate, it'll be interesting to see a prequel done under new leadership.  What will that yield, I wonder?

7 days from finding out. I have to admit to some excitement.

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From a guy who usually gets spoiled quite a lot (either on purpose like I did for Nemesis, Enterprise and the first JJ movie) or not (GoT, among others: I've read the books, but am not up to date by many seasons on the show as I'd like to wait as long as possible to finish that alternate universe version, but the internet, even when not searching for them, has been quite ruthless in its spoiling ways), I have to say I appreciate how little of Discovery has gotten out, and if the review hold allows for a better, unspoiled experience, I'm not against it.

I'm quite happy to hear people liked it, but I really don't want to hear much more anymore.

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I'm looking forward to the new age of fewer spoilers. I don't look for them, I deliberately avoid them in a lot of cases, but still it's rare to go into a movie or begin a TV show nowadays without some sort of idea of the overall plot. The Internet just bathes you in unwanted foreknowledge. 

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I’m not hunting for spoilers either.  I know a few broad strokes, and (for once), I kinda want to leave it that way.  Builds the anticipation... 

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I have other things as well to do besides Discovery, so it's not that high a priority on the list. Haven't read any real spoilers, nor again do I feel like it.

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