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Rusty0918

No reviews of Discovery until first episodes air?

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This:

http://ew.com/tv/2017/09/14/cbs-critics-star-trek-discovery/

This usually is a bad omen. Not allowing critics to "test screen" anything can suggest maybe something just isn't good enough. I know with movies that aren't test-screened for critics, when they do finally get reviewed, they often go to the dogs. Granted there may be exceptions, but it doesn't give me a good feeling about it.

Edited by Rusty0918

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And the article, from paragraph three on, explains why the secrecy doesn't necessarily mean anything in and of itself.

So...much ado about...not much at this point, IMHO

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27 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

And the article, from paragraph three on, explains why the secrecy doesn't necessarily mean anything in and of itself.

So...much ado about...not much at this point, IMHO

I can't say I blame TPTB for not pre releasing it for reviews; considering how much negativity has been hurled the show's way already.   My expectations for the show are right in the middle; I'm not expecting it to reinvent the wheel, but it looks (from the promos) like it will definitely entertain,  and there will certainly be recognizable ST elements within it.

At this point, that's enough for me to give it a try and make up my own mind; without anyone else's opinions rattling around in my brain...

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Critics these days tear everything into pieces that isn't a superb A++++++  movie/show. If I were in charge of something I wouldn't allow previews either, regardless of the show's (perceived) quality.

That being said... this is really NOT helping with the negative press the show has been getting ever since it was announced (io9 is happily trashing it again, it's like throwing a dog a particularly awesome bone), and it also won't help dealing with the "See? I told you it's bad" faction of the Trek fandom. I get it that a lot of critics have made up their mind already and won't go into this with an open mind and CBS seems to want to prevent them from being all over the show before it even airs, but keeping it from them is probably also not exactly the way to win their approval either.

In other words: I'm somewhat torn here. But then, no matter what CBS does at this point, it's always the "wrong" thing.

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25 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

But then, no matter what CBS does at this point, it's always the "wrong" thing.

That's what it boils down to. Even the disqus threads here are mostly people determined to hate on whatever leaks, so there's really no point to leaking anything. It's not going to change minds at this point. 

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I agree with you both.

So really, what's the point in providing ammunition for the haters, one way or the other?  They're damned if they do, damned if they don't.  People are going to be waiting with spears drawn for this one, no matter it's relative quality because it won't be 'their' Star Trek (whatever that means, anyway).

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Well, I do think that people who defend Discovery (and that may include me) shouldn't go smearing people who question it. I know how rabid some of the ST09 defenders were (no offense, Sehlat Vie). I know some went as far as making death threats (one wished a detractor would be beaten up so bad that he would die choking on his own blood).

I'm not totally banking on Discovery either, in case it does fall short of expectations.

I don't mind changes or re-imagining, but I do mind "how" it's done. Discovery seems to be doing well in this, while I had questions about ST09 and STID (Beyond again rectified a few things).

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30 minutes ago, Rusty0918 said:

Well, I do think that people who defend Discovery (and that may include me) shouldn't go smearing people who question it.

I don't have any problem with people that question it. I have a problem with people determined to hate every bit of what comes out no matter what it is just for the sole purpose of hearing themselves hate on it.

If one is going to hate on it with such an all-consuming passion they should simply move on and find something else to watch.

I mean, I'd be happy to never hear another word about Klingons or their culture again, but I'm open to them showing me something with them because maybe it's actually good. We'll see.

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Case in point: this story seems borne out by io9's Katherine Trendacosta, who has been attempting to nail Discovery's hide to the wall before it airs for months now:

http://io9.gizmodo.com/has-everyone-forgotten-what-star-trek-is-supposed-to-be-1806528223

As usual, if you can be bothered to wade through all the whining and complaining, the constant reframing of production issues as "serious problems," and overall sense of entitlement, she actually makes a couple of salient points (good one at the end, which she then destroys with her customary negativity). But please, someone send this woman an editor. 

Edited by Robin Bland

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8 hours ago, Rusty0918 said:

Well, I do think that people who defend Discovery (and that may include me) shouldn't go smearing people who question it. I know how rabid some of the ST09 defenders were (no offense, Sehlat Vie).

No offense taken at all, but to clarify; I’m was never a vehement defender of ST09.  I’ve said (many times) that it has basic storytelling/logistical flaws, and that Nero was a very unoriginal and uninspired villain (a Khan-nabe), but what I enjoyed about it were the amazing cast and the chemistry/energy the movie brought to what was (then) a franchise seemingly on life-support.  I enjoyed it more as a fun character-driven film rather than a solid story.  

Just to clarify. :P

8 hours ago, Rusty0918 said:

I know some went as far as making death threats (one wished a detractor would be beaten up so bad that he would die choking on his own blood).

People who advocate violence and/or death of others in defense of a movie/TV series are just sick.  Period.   No ands/ifs/buts.   If one’s life is so meaningless that they get ALL of their personal validation over an entertainment?   That’s below pathetic.  

8 hours ago, Rusty0918 said:

I'm not totally banking on Discovery either, in case it does fall short of expectations.

I don't mind changes or re-imagining, but I do mind "how" it's done. Discovery seems to be doing well in this, while I had questions about ST09 and STID (Beyond again rectified a few things).

I’m cautiously optimistic, but optimistic nevertheless.  My position from the beginning.

And yes, how it’s done is as important as anything else.  A lot of what saved ST09 and STB for me was in the way the characters were handled; they were so well cast and gave those movies so much energy & drive that they made them better movies than they would’ve been otherwise.

I won’t even go into how much I dislike STID; I don’t think we have time for that now... :laugh:

 

2 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

Case in point: this story seems borne out by io9's Katherine Trendacosta, who has been attempting to nail Discovery's hide to the wall before it airs for months now:

http://io9.gizmodo.com/has-everyone-forgotten-what-star-trek-is-supposed-to-be-1806528223

As usual, if you can be bothered to wade through all the whining and complaining, the constant reframing of production issues as "serious problems," and overall sense of entitlement, she actually makes a couple of salient points (good one at the end, which she then destroys with her customary negativity). But please, someone send this woman an editor. 

Ugh... I learned to stop taking her seriously when the first of her anti-DSC essays came our way.  

8 hours ago, prometheus59650 said:

I don't have any problem with people that question it. I have a problem with people determined to hate every bit of what comes out no matter what it is just for the sole purpose of hearing themselves hate on it.

If one is going to hate on it with such an all-consuming passion they should simply move on and find something else to watch.

I mean, I'd be happy to never hear another word about Klingons or their culture again, but I'm open to them showing me something with them because maybe it's actually good. We'll see.

^
Very much this. 

If they can put a new or fresh spin on the Klingons?  I’m game. 

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People who question the issues surrounding Discovery - or the show's premise itself - aren't the problem, and neither are the ones who look forward to it. The problem are those who throw merciless and mindless hate under every single Discovery article/tweet/FB entry AND those who can't tolerate even the slightest criticism towards it and just call everyone who questions anything a "hater". Websites like io9 that have clearly taken sides are NOT helping either.

I mean there already are Facebook groups that only let in Discovery fans because the hate has gotten so bad. It's the whole ENT argument all over again that led to ENT fans founding their own message board because they were harassed everywhere else - only this time it's even more forceful because social media.

And... the show hasn't even aired yet.

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1 hour ago, Mr.Picard said:

People who question the issues surrounding Discovery - or the show's premise itself - aren't the problem, and neither are the ones who look forward to it. The problem are those who throw merciless and mindless hate under every single Discovery article/tweet/FB entry AND those who can't tolerate even the slightest criticism towards it and just call everyone who questions anything a "hater". Websites like io9 that have clearly taken sides are NOT helping either.

I mean there already are Facebook groups that only let in Discovery fans because the hate has gotten so bad. It's the whole ENT argument all over again that led to ENT fans founding their own message board because they were harassed everywhere else - only this time it's even more forceful because social media.

And... the show hasn't even aired yet.

Yeah, there are definitely people on both sides who cause trouble. With the reboot and its sequels - there were those who complained that it didn't look exactly like TOS (with its candy-colored buttons, etc., no red caps on the warp nacelles, etc.). I wasn't one of those, but had qualms with other decisions they made. However, there were times I felt like I was being lumped in the "haters" category. Funny though, some of the defenders of the JJ rebooted films attack those with profanities and F-bombs, which makes me wonder who is a REAL hater.

Of course there were detractors of TNG when it first came out, about people complaining that Kirk and company weren't in it. I wasn't fond of it when it first came out, but it grew on me big time.

Yes there may be bonafide "haters," but we shouldn't lump those who have LEGIT criticisms into the "haters" box.

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1 hour ago, Mr.Picard said:

People who question the issues surrounding Discovery - or the show's premise itself - aren't the problem, and neither are the ones who look forward to it. The problem are those who throw merciless and mindless hate under every single Discovery article/tweet/FB entry AND those who can't tolerate even the slightest criticism towards it and just call everyone who questions anything a "hater". Websites like io9 that have clearly taken sides are NOT helping either.

I mean there already are Facebook groups that only let in Discovery fans because the hate has gotten so bad. It's the whole ENT argument all over again that led to ENT fans founding their own message board because they were harassed everywhere else - only this time it's even more forceful because social media.

And... the show hasn't even aired yet.

I know right??

At this point, I’m hoping that DSC is beyond amazing, much as TNG turned out to be (and that was because ST fans had the fortitude to stay with it, even in its shaky beginnings).  

Try before you condemn; that’s all I’d ask of any ST fan at this point.  

Otherwise the ST fan community will be thought of as too difficult to please, and CBS will simply stop trying.   Our next ST series or movie could be "Baywatch-in-Space" if we keep handwringing over gray Klingons, too many visual FX or other irrelevance.  

 

 

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I was called a hater once for simply saying I had no interest in watching Nu!Trek at all. I didn't say it was bad, I just said "I'm not interested in watching it", and the response I got was "I should have known you're one of those haters". (Yeah, umm. No.) There are accusations on both sides of the fandom fence here, it's not always the rabid haters attacking those who are enjoying something, sometimes it's also those who enjoy something who mindlessly attack those who voice even the slightest "nah". Same thing is happening with Discovery now - some folks are so much looking forward to it that they're willing to suppress ALL concerns just for the sake of "it's Trek, come on, we are all Trekkies, we have to love and support this show unconditionally, we must not question ANYTHING".

The Trek fandom is already thought of as "very difficult to please" though, and the reactions to Discovery prove this every day. I mean people complain about the SMALLEST things from the trailers, images or soundfiles or whatever else they release. Trekkies are nitpickers, and while this can be charming sometimes, it becomes something else entirely if it is used with an intent to simply hate on something for the sake of hating, and at this point I'm guessing both the cast AND the writers of Discovery are pretty much fed up with the constant negativity that gets thrown at them. (I believe David Mack wrote a Twitter rant thread about this today or yesterday, in fact.)

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4 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

I was called a hater once for simply saying I had no interest in watching Nu!Trek at all. I didn't say it was bad, I just said "I'm not interested in watching it", and the response I got was "I should have known you're one of those haters". (Yeah, umm. No.) There are accusations on both sides of the fandom fence here, it's not always the rabid haters attacking those who are enjoying something, sometimes it's also those who enjoy something who mindlessly attack those who voice even the slightest "nah". Same thing is happening with Discovery now - some folks are so much looking forward to it that they're willing to suppress ALL concerns just for the sake of "it's Trek, come on, we are all Trekkies, we have to love and support this show unconditionally, we must not question ANYTHING".

The Trek fandom is already thought of as "very difficult to please" though, and the reactions to Discovery prove this every day. I mean people complain about the SMALLEST things from the trailers, images or soundfiles or whatever else they release. Trekkies are nitpickers, and while this can be charming sometimes, it becomes something else entirely if it is used with an intent to simply hate on something for the sake of hating, and at this point I'm guessing both the cast AND the writers of Discovery are pretty much fed up with the constant negativity that gets thrown at them. (I believe David Mack wrote a Twitter rant thread about this today or yesterday, in fact.)

Agreed. I've become a lot more open-minded so I'm willing to accept Discovery. There are some though who can't be pleased at all. I mean, seriously, candy-colored buttons, etc. would *NOT* work for a mainstream production. Perhaps for a niche production e.g. "Star Trek Continues" but that stuff won't fly with today's audiences. Seriously it can't, despite what some can say.

So far I like what I've seen (the Discovery's design I'm not too fond of but who knows, it might grow on me like the Enterprise-D did in TNG).

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34 minutes ago, Rusty0918 said:

Agreed. I've become a lot more open-minded so I'm willing to accept Discovery. There are some though who can't be pleased at all. I mean, seriously, candy-colored buttons, etc. would *NOT* work for a mainstream production. Perhaps for a niche production e.g. "Star Trek Continues" but that stuff won't fly with today's audiences. Seriously it can't, despite what some can say.

So far I like what I've seen (the Discovery's design I'm not too fond of but who knows, it might grow on me like the Enterprise-D did in TNG).

I partly understand their reasoning - if they get a show set roughly around the time of "The Cage", they expect a show whose sets LOOK like the ones they had in the 60s, and literally no one is making ANY effort towards that, so, they're angry and bitter. What I don't understand is why they don't simply stop bothering if they hate it all so much instead of tweeting at EVERY Discovery account "not gonna watch your show sorry, this sucks" (why are they following the Discovery accounts in the first place, then? I'll never understand this extreme Trek fan masochism). There's plenty of other Trek to watch, no one is forcing anyone to watch Discovery, and yet they act like as if someone is doing just that to them. If I don't care for the premise of a show, I don't watch it. It sounds simple and yet it doesn't seem to be.

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28 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

I was called a hater once for simply saying I had no interest in watching Nu!Trek at all. I didn't say it was bad, I just said "I'm not interested in watching it", and the response I got was "I should have known you're one of those haters". (Yeah, umm. No.) There are accusations on both sides of the fandom fence here, it's not always the rabid haters attacking those who are enjoying something, sometimes it's also those who enjoy something who mindlessly attack those who voice even the slightest "nah". Same thing is happening with Discovery now - some folks are so much looking forward to it that they're willing to suppress ALL concerns just for the sake of "it's Trek, come on, we are all Trekkies, we have to love and support this show unconditionally, we must not question ANYTHING".

The Trek fandom is already thought of as "very difficult to please" though, and the reactions to Discovery prove this every day. I mean people complain about the SMALLEST things from the trailers, images or soundfiles or whatever else they release. Trekkies are nitpickers, and while this can be charming sometimes, it becomes something else entirely if it is used with an intent to simply hate on something for the sake of hating, and at this point I'm guessing both the cast AND the writers of Discovery are pretty much fed up with the constant negativity that gets thrown at them. (I believe David Mack wrote a Twitter rant thread about this today or yesterday, in fact.)

That's not hating to me, that's simply indifference, and there's nothing wrong with that either.

Thanks for the direct to Mack's Twitter. If he is that willing to gush...I take that as a good sign simply because the man knows how to write.

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Just now, prometheus59650 said:

That's not hating to me, that's simply indifference, and there's nothing wrong with that either.

Thanks for the direct to Mack's Twitter. If he is that willing to gush...I take that as a good sign simply because the man knows how to write.

I don't really care for any Trek novelists but Mack has somewhat grown on me ever since he actually apologized to me on Facebook for TNG's lack of a gay character (even though it was not his fault by any logical means) and for the way some homophobic fans treat me because of my love for Jean-Luc (which is not his fault either but he felt the need to speak up and say something since he was horrified by what gets thrown at me sometimes). So yes, I did look at his Twitter rant about the negativity towards Discovery, and he fully embraces the show and it doesn't seem to be just because he's written the first novel for it, it seems to be genuine approval and affection for both the cast and the writers.

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3 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

I don't really care for any Trek novelists but Mack has somewhat grown on me ever since he actually apologized to me on Facebook for TNG's lack of a gay character (even though it was not his fault by any logical means) and for the way some homophobic fans treat me because of my love for Jean-Luc (which is not his fault either but he felt the need to speak up and say something since he was horrified by what gets thrown at me sometimes). So yes, I did look at his Twitter rant about the negativity towards Discovery, and he fully embraces the show and it doesn't seem to be just because he's written the first novel for it, it seems to be genuine approval and affection for both the cast and the writers.

Honestly, it's a good bunch of writers for DSC. Beyer could make me care about VOY. She made the crew gel and made me give a damn about them at all.

And, given how I generally feel about VOY, that is a feat.

 

Edited by prometheus59650

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scenario   

I wonder how many of the people who passionately hate a show that hasn't even aired yet are going to pay to watch (or not watch) it?

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5 minutes ago, scenario said:

I wonder how many of the people who passionately hate a show that hasn't even aired yet are going to pay to watch (or not watch) it?

Well, they might watch it to see if they're vindicated if it really is bad.

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14 minutes ago, scenario said:

I wonder how many of the people who passionately hate a show that hasn't even aired yet are going to pay to watch (or not watch) it?

Quite a few. But I suspect most of them will pirate it.

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2 hours ago, prometheus59650 said:

Quite a few. But I suspect most of them will pirate it.

Most likely, I must say. Or just wait for it to come onto Netflix here in the U.S. (which would be a year after it's on CBS All Access).

The review embargo does concern me, although some do have points here. Like it or not, there are going to be detractors, just like there were for TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT (although for the latter two they were justified somewhat).

Yes this might fall short. There are some Trek fans who just can't be pleased, as has been observed.

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22 minutes ago, Rusty0918 said:

Or just wait for it to come onto Netflix here in the U.S. (which would be a year after it's on CBS All Access).

Where have you read that Netflix gets it in a year in the US? Had not heard anything about that.

25 minutes ago, Rusty0918 said:

The review embargo does concern me, although some do have points here.

I have to say, not me. There are many reasons not to leak it this way, and the writing staff has within it the likes of Meyer and Kristin Beyer. She can write. And when you have the likes of David Mack, another writer I respect, will enthusiastically defend it, I feel better about it overall.

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5 hours ago, Mr.Picard said:

I was called a hater once for simply saying I had no interest in watching Nu!Trek at all. I didn't say it was bad, I just said "I'm not interested in watching it", and the response I got was "I should have known you're one of those haters". (Yeah, umm. No.)

Very big difference in lacking interest and actively hating something.   I lack interest in “Power Rangers” but I actively hate the “Transformers” movies.  :laugh:

4 hours ago, Mr.Picard said:

I partly understand their reasoning - if they get a show set roughly around the time of "The Cage", they expect a show whose sets LOOK like the ones they had in the 60s, and literally no one is making ANY effort towards that, so, they're angry and bitter. What I don't understand is why they don't simply stop bothering if they hate it all so much instead of tweeting at EVERY Discovery account "not gonna watch your show sorry, this sucks" (why are they following the Discovery accounts in the first place, then? I'll never understand this extreme Trek fan masochism). There's plenty of other Trek to watch, no one is forcing anyone to watch Discovery, and yet they act like as if someone is doing just that to them. If I don't care for the premise of a show, I don't watch it. It sounds simple and yet it doesn't seem to be.

^
This.

Even if you don’t like one branch, you don't need to hate the entire tree..

3 hours ago, prometheus59650 said:

Quite a few. But I suspect most of them will pirate it.

I’m sure... to see how ‘right’ they were for preemptively hating it, no doubt. 

 

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