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John32070

Most disappointing Enterprise episode

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Going along with the TOS themed category, What episode of Enterprise just didn't work for you? I'll have to think about it.

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"A Night in Sickbay" and "These are the Voyages" are just heartbreakingly awful.

I've only watched TATV once and never will again.

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These are the Voyages is a definite. I know it was kinda short notice to wrap things up but that was an insult to everyone. 

I don't mind A Night in Sickbay because as an animal person it's hard not to feel bad for Porthos and Archer. I realize most of the criticism gets aimed at the Archer/T'Pol hint of romance. 

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1 minute ago, John32070 said:

These are the Voyages is a definite. I know it was kinda short notice to wrap things up but that was an insult to everyone. 

I don't mind A Night in Sickbay because as an animal person it's hard not to feel bad for Porthos and Archer. I realize most of the criticism gets aimed at the Archer/T'Pol hint of romance. 

Oh, that's cheesy in its own right, but Archer is sleep deprived, so, fine.

And I do feel badly for Porthos, but mainly I feel terrible that he has an owner that almost killed him and won't own it.

These people are so touchy that, at their last encounter, they left the ship enraged and disgusted that people were eating in public.

- But he brings his animal down without asking.

- Animal pees on a sacred tree and gets sick.

- Aliens are (surprising to no one, save Archer) ticked that sacred tree was defiled.  

 

But it's all THEIR fault that Porthos is sick and Archer is indignant as hell that he has to apologize to them.

 

ALL of it is HIS fault and his arrogance here makes an iffy episode to start with even worse. 

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It was kind of worth it in the end to see him wearing their makeup and clothing sawing off the offended branch LOL. But you are right, it was a bad character moment for him. 

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Definitely "These Are The Voyages" on top of my list as well. It's so bad that I pretend this episode never happened. It insults me as both a TNG fan and a casual ENT watcher. What were they thinking. (Please don't tell me, haha.)

Also agree with the "Night In Sickbay" episode. Dreadful although I also feel for Archer when he's worried about Porthos, but then, a truly responsible pet owner would never have brought their dog along in the first place. I get what they were trying to do but it just doesn't work and it does make Archer look like a jerk.

I also can't stand "Bound" and "Two Days And Two Nights". The sexism. The heteronormativity. How about no. Disappointing, in so many ways. Oh and "Precious Cargo". *facepalm*

 

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21 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

Definitely "These Are The Voyages" on top of my list as well. It's so bad that I pretend this episode never happened. It insults me as both a TNG fan and a casual ENT watcher. What were they thinking. (Please don't tell me, haha.)

Also agree with the "Night In Sickbay" episode. Dreadful although I also feel for Archer when he's worried about Porthos, but then, a truly responsible pet owner would never have brought their dog along in the first place. I get what they were trying to do but it just doesn't work and it does make Archer look like a jerk.

I also can't stand "Bound" and "Two Days And Two Nights". The sexism. The heteronormativity. How about no. Disappointing, in so many ways. Oh and "Precious Cargo". *facepalm*

 

^
Pretty much all of these.

And for the same reasons.  As someone who grew up with pets (but doesn't have them now; save for an hornery fish) irresponsible pet owners are a HUGE pet peeve (NPI) of mine.  So "Night In Sickbay" really chaps my bottom.  I realize we're supposed to automatically sympathize with Archer against the 'uptight' aliens, but this was one of those 'Archer-as-ugly-American' episodes that we saw in the first two years, and it really rubs me the wrong way.

TATV is just...yeah, let's not go there.  It's too early and I've have a really nice day yesterday; don't want to harsh my buzz.  Hehe.

"Bound" just irritates.  It's meant to be 'female empowering' ("the men are the slaves..." Hardy har har) but it comes off even worse than "The Cage."  

2DA2N is how long this episode felt to me when I first saw it.  The "OMG we almost made a pass at a boy alien" hetero-squeamishness feels downright 1980s (in a bad way).  I hate this one, and it's best left forgotten.

Same thing with "Precious Cargo"... It has a bad case of "Mudd's Women" disease. 

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2 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

^
Pretty much all of these.

And for the same reasons.  As someone who grew up with pets (but doesn't have them now; save for an hornery fish) irresponsible pet owners are a HUGE pet peeve (NPI) of mine.  So "Night In Sickbay" really chaps my bottom.  I realize we're supposed to automatically sympathize with Archer against the 'uptight' aliens, but this was one of those 'Archer-as-ugly-American' episodes that we saw in the first two years, and it really rubs me the wrong way.

TATV is just...yeah, let's not go there.  It's too early and I've have a really nice day yesterday; don't want to harsh my buzz.  Hehe.

"Bound" just irritates.  It's meant to be 'female empowering' ("the men are the slaves..." Hardy har har) but it comes off even worse than "The Cage."  

2DA2N is how long this episode felt to me when I first saw it.  The "OMG we almost made a pass at a boy alien" hetero-squeamishness feels downright 1980s (in a bad way).  I hate this one, and it's best left forgotten.

Same thing with "Precious Cargo"... It has a bad case of "Mudd's Women" disease. 

What irritates me the most about "Bound" is the whole "ALL men aboard this ship are soooo affected by the WOMEN"... like, how about no? This might be total news to Bermaga, but there are actually men who are not attracted to alien ladies at ALL (or ANYONE), no matter how many Orion slave girls someone throws at them...? I can forgive and roll my eyes at TOS for doing this kind of thing in the 60s, but ENT really should have known (and done) better. And don't even get me started on the "OMG THEY'RE MALE HEEEEEEELP" crap in "Two Days And Two Nights". What even. Seriously, this is high school level "joke"... even TNG did MUCH better in "Liaisons" when Anna turns out to be Voval (credit where credit is due, yo, it's a really good scene, that one, nicely done, they never even make it an issue while ENT, of course, jumps right into stupid "humor" because "hurr hurr"... but then, neither Tucker nor Reed strike me as "mature" as Jean-Luc is when it comes to handling this so maybe this IS in-character for them...).

And yeah, the LAST thing I'd do if I was a starship captain would be to bring the guinea pigs I'd no doubt have to a planet I know nothing about and that just SEEMS pretty and harmless. I'd make zillions of scans first and then also go down on my own and scan the grass and look at it and examine it AND then take some and let my CMO examine it and its possible effects on guinea pigs before I let them mow the lawn there in ANY way... I'd be seriously paranoid but it's better to be on the safe side and as a pet owner making sure your pet is safe and WILL be safe if you take it down to an alien planet is YOUR responsibility. Blaming the aliens for it all is just immature. YOU are responsible, not the ALIENS. Sheesh. (I guess irresponsible pet owners are a pet peeve of mine as well.)

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3 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

What irritates me the most about "Bound" is the whole "ALL men aboard this ship are soooo affected by the WOMEN"... like, how about no? This might be total news to Bermaga, but there are actually men who are not attracted to alien ladies at ALL (or ANYONE), no matter how many Orion slave girls someone throws at them...? I can forgive and roll my eyes at TOS for doing this kind of thing in the 60s, but ENT really should have known (and done) better. And don't even get me started on the "OMG THEY'RE MALE HEEEEEEELP" crap in "Two Days And Two Nights". What even. Seriously, this is high school level "joke"... even TNG did MUCH better in "Liaisons" when Anna turns out to be Voval (credit where credit is due, yo, it's a really good scene, that one, nicely done, they never even make it an issue while ENT, of course, jumps right into stupid "humor" because "hurr hurr"... but then, neither Tucker nor Reed strike me as "mature" as Jean-Luc is when it comes to handling this so maybe this IS in-character for them...).

And yeah, the LAST thing I'd do if I was a starship captain would be to bring the guinea pigs I'd no doubt have to a planet I know nothing about and that just SEEMS pretty and harmless. I'd make zillions of scans first and then also go down on my own and scan the grass and look at it and examine it AND then take some and let my CMO examine it and its possible effects on guinea pigs before I let them mow the lawn there in ANY way... I'd be seriously paranoid but it's better to be on the safe side and as a pet owner making sure your pet is safe and WILL be safe if you take it down to an alien planet is YOUR responsibility. Blaming the aliens for it all is just immature. YOU are responsible, not the ALIENS. Sheesh. (I guess irresponsible pet owners are a pet peeve of mine as well.)

On that last paragraph, you make an excellent point.

Real scientists would never just take off their sterile suits and run barefoot on the grass of an alien planet (see: Space Hippies in 'Way to Eden" for why that's a bad idea...).    You'd do scans, soil tests, tests of the local flora, spores, pollens, etc..  You wouldn't humanely choose your crew as Guinea pigs when it isn't necessary; even the NX-01 had decent scanning equipment and unmanned probes (certainly far superior to NASA's best today).   

Then again, if ST always followed real science, it might be a very lengthy and boring show for some people (haha).

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7 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Then again, if ST always followed real science, it might be a very lengthy and boring show for some people (haha).

Sorry, it's the same reason you don't watch the opening of a murder case on CSI start in November sweeps and then not pick up again until January when the lab results would ACTUALLY come back.

It's why Vegas, NY, and Miami all looked like they had $500B "pfft...the bleeding edge is in the rear-view mirror" crime labs. :)

18 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

What irritates me the most about "Bound" is the whole "ALL men aboard this ship are soooo affected by the WOMEN"... like, how about no? This might be total news to Bermaga, but there are actually men who are not attracted to alien ladies at ALL (or ANYONE), no matter how many Orion slave girls someone throws at them...?

Asexuality might have been a little too deep in terms of time and context of the episode to touch on with an audience, there are 80 people on that ship, one of them is gay and male. "Commander, they're lovely and all, I'm just not interested. But tell Commander Tucker if he'd ever like someone to sit next to for movie night..."

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17 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

On that last paragraph, you make an excellent point.

Real scientists would never just take off their sterile suits and run barefoot on the grass of an alien planet (see: Space Hippies in 'Way to Eden" for why that's a bad idea...).    You'd do scans, soil tests, tests of the local flora, spores, pollens, etc..  You wouldn't humanely choose your crew as Guinea pigs when it isn't necessary; even the NX-01 had decent scanning equipment and unmanned probes (certainly far superior to NASA's best today).   

Then again, if ST always followed real science, it might be a very lengthy and boring show for some people (haha).

I used to be paranoid about the grass OUTSIDE before I gave it to my piggies (I'd wash it twice and go through it to make sure there wasn't anything harmful in it) so I'd be a zillion times more paranoid about grass on an alien planet (or anything else guinea pigs might find tasty)! I mean having this "ah whatevs, nice planet, I'm taking my doggo" attitude is utterly irresponsible but also not the first time Archer does this (he does the same in "Strange New World")... it's a common pattern for him, apparently. I do like him, but sometimes I want to slap him.

3 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

Asexuality might have been a little too deep in terms of time and context of the episode to touch on with an audience, there are 80 people on that ship, one of them is gay and male. "Commander, they're lovely and all, I'm just not interested. But tell Commander Tucker if he'd ever like someone to sit next to for movie night..."

Yeah I know, asexuality was not "mainstream" enough back then, but you're absolutely right, a gay male officer would have been nice (and that line, too, haha). But naaah, ALL the men are affected by the alien ladies. Bleh. Disappointing... and also downright infurating.

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I was also deeply unfond of S3"s Anomaly.

I realize Archer's reasons for torturing the alien prisoner in the airlock were extreme, but I couldn't quite look at him the same way after that.  He used the exact same tactic as the 'bad guy' Khan Noonian Singh in "Space Seed" (TOS).  For whatever Archer's faults (uncouthness, brashness, a tendency to be 'ugly American' at times), he was marred forever (IMO) when he tried to asphyxiate an (admittedly hostile) alien.  NO MATTER the reasons, torture is simply not an option. 

Once a person goes to that place, they (and their victim) are never the same.  Toture forever degrades both the victim and the one who commits the act.  It's the same as rape, domestic abuse or child abuse.  A person who crosses that line, even after a thousand apologies, always has that inner capacity to go to that place again.   Yes, Archer seemed genuinely remorseful and S4 certainly did a decent job of image control for the character, but I never quite looked at him the same after Anomaly. 

I felt almost the same way when he stranded the other alien race in the expanse after stealing their warp coils (the exact episode title eludes me).  S3 was a very rough season for me; so much so, that I gave up on the show briefly during the thick of it.  I felt it had (briefly) devolved into a propaganda machine to justify the US invasion of Iraq (the search for those WMDs that were never found).

I'm not trying to KM this thread, I'm just offering my own reason why I briefly stopped watching in S3.   It seemed the show was less about that old ST optimism and trying too hard to emulate its badass cousin, "Battlestar Galactica" (a very different kind of show that I loved VERY much but for wildly different reasons).  

And I've since revisited S3 (about a year ago, in fact) and found that much of it was better than I remembered.  

But...Anomaly still disappoints me today for the same reasons it did then.  

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3 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

I felt almost the same way when he stranded the other alien race in the expanse after stealing their warp coils (the exact episode title eludes me).

If I have to pick, I can justify stealing the warp coils more easily than spacing someone. In both cases you are against the wall trying to save your world so boundaries are going to get pushed but with the warp coils, add to the fact that no one was hurt and the ship was "simply" stranded, it becomes sort of an abstract exercise. You give the order, sit on the ship, and voila, eventually you have your coils.

 

It's a lot more personal and visceral to stand there and watch this guy know he's getting spaced. It's a fair bit darker a turn for anyone I think.

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21 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

If I have to pick, I can justify stealing the warp coils more easily than spacing someone. In both cases you are against the wall trying to save your world so boundaries are going to get pushed but with the warp coils, add to the fact that no one was hurt and the ship was "simply" stranded, it becomes sort of an abstract exercise. You give the order, sit on the ship, and voila, eventually you have your coils.

 

It's a lot more personal and visceral to stand there and watch this guy know he's getting spaced. It's a fair bit darker a turn for anyone I think.

Yeah, true.  

And like I said, stranding them was almost as bad as torture.  If Archer had stranded them in friendly space, it would've been a simple case of 'the needs of the many' but he left those aliens in the expanse; I would hope those aliens would be rescued before they're destroyed.    But yes, still not as awful as airlocking someone; very much agreed.

But nothing justifies the torture of any intelligent being; I don't even care if they're a mass murderer.  Death in wartime is one thing (and I don't condone war either, but I understand the rationale for it).  Someone gets cross in enemy crosshairs and it's over; I get it.  But torture is different.  It's decidedly premeditated and sadistic.   It's a behavior so ugly and wrongheaded that I honestly wonder if the person committing the act truly deserves salvation (?).   

Archer just never quite seemed the same to me after that.  He wasn't a war hero; he was a sadist.

I think he partly redeemed himself later on (even the worst of us deserves a chance at redemption, IMO) but he never seemed to honestly atone for that act.  

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35 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

I think he partly redeemed himself later on (even the worst of us deserves a chance at redemption, IMO) but he never seemed to honestly atone for that act.  

Not everyone gets a chance to atone for the worst of their wrongs. Some of those you just have to take up with whatever God you might believe in. It would have been enough for me if he regretted it. "At the time there wasn't anything else to do, nothing else I could see to do anyway...but it haunts me. It's not what I went out there to do or the man I ever thought I'd be. But I did what I did."

I'd settle for a variant on O'Brien's "It's not you I hate, Cardassian. I hate what I became because of you."

But he just kinda...fairly easily moves on.

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5 hours ago, prometheus59650 said:

Not everyone gets a chance to atone for the worst of their wrongs. Some of those you just have to take up with whatever God you might believe in. It would have been enough for me if he regretted it. "At the time there wasn't anything else to do, nothing else I could see to do anyway...but it haunts me. It's not what I went out there to do or the man I ever thought I'd be. But I did what I did."

I'd settle for a variant on O'Brien's "It's not you I hate, Cardassian. I hate what I became because of you."

But he just kinda...fairly easily moves on.

Fair enough, right?

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On 7/24/2017 at 6:18 AM, Sehlat Vie said:

I was also deeply unfond of S3"s Anomaly.

I realize Archer's reasons for torturing the alien prisoner in the airlock were extreme, but I couldn't quite look at him the same way after that.  He used the exact same tactic as the 'bad guy' Khan Noonian Singh in "Space Seed" (TOS).  For whatever Archer's faults (uncouthness, brashness, a tendency to be 'ugly American' at times), he was marred forever (IMO) when he tried to asphyxiate an (admittedly hostile) alien.  NO MATTER the reasons, torture is simply not an option. 

Once a person goes to that place, they (and their victim) are never the same.  Toture forever degrades both the victim and the one who commits the act.  It's the same as rape, domestic abuse or child abuse.  A person who crosses that line, even after a thousand apologies, always has that inner capacity to go to that place again.   Yes, Archer seemed genuinely remorseful and S4 certainly did a decent job of image control for the character, but I never quite looked at him the same after Anomaly. 

I felt almost the same way when he stranded the other alien race in the expanse after stealing their warp coils (the exact episode title eludes me).  S3 was a very rough season for me; so much so, that I gave up on the show briefly during the thick of it.  I felt it had (briefly) devolved into a propaganda machine to justify the US invasion of Iraq (the search for those WMDs that were never found).

I'm not trying to KM this thread, I'm just offering my own reason why I briefly stopped watching in S3.   It seemed the show was less about that old ST optimism and trying too hard to emulate its badass cousin, "Battlestar Galactica" (a very different kind of show that I loved VERY much but for wildly different reasons).  

And I've since revisited S3 (about a year ago, in fact) and found that much of it was better than I remembered.  

But...Anomaly still disappoints me today for the same reasons it did then.  

"Damage" is what happened when you're really against the wall. It was something that Archer had to do in order to save Earth, even if it was extremely ugly. I always thought that the episode title didn't just mean the ship, but some of the crew, since this whole experience damaged Archer enough to pull such a stunt.

Back to the most disappointing - I never saw "These Are the Voyages" but from what I've heard, it's a stinker. The most disappointing one I *DID* see was hands down "A Night in Sickbay." When we DRVrd it back in 2002, my sister warned me about it saying that my father was screaming at the characters on TV and commenting that this would probably be the last ENT they'd DVR. Can't say I blame them, as the sentiment is among most of the fanbase.

I was never too crazy about the Temporal Cold War stuff, though it was a good thing (albeit too late) when they ended it at the beginning of the fourth season.

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18 minutes ago, Rusty0918 said:

I never saw "These Are the Voyages" but from what I've heard, it's a stinker.

I can't quite accept that I'm doing this, but I'm going to defend "Sickbay" this far: it can justify its own existence. It tells a story that makes sense, even if its a terrible story.

TATV has no reason to exist as it does. It makes no sense. Not one writer watched "The Pegasus" before they wrote this. Riker's moral quandary actually plays out in that episode and it's NOTHING like how the same thing plays out in TATV.

And on top of that, you have a visibly older, Riker and Troi trying to pretend they're not.

It would have been a breeze to rewrite the plot sufficiently to just put them both on the Titan and play out a "moral issue" that actually fits.

Any fanfic writer here could do it, and probably in a night..

 

 

 

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Well, I can't really defend "A Night in Sickbay." The whole premise of it (and how Archer got into that predicament) was utterly stupid. I wouldn't let my dog down on some planet knowing something like that would happen.

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32 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

Oh, it sucks as a story. It's still better than TATV.

It's a low bar indeed, but it's better.

Agreed.

TATV was ill-conceived.  ANIS (hehe...) is just another run-of-the-mill bad ST episode. 

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2 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Agreed.

TATV was ill-conceived.  ANIS (hehe...) is just another run-of-the-mill bad ST episode. 

Aside from being completely disconnected to "The Pegasus." I think it suffers the same problem that VOY's "Flashback." The Riker/Troi part doesn't NEED Archer for anything anymore than Janeway and Tuvok ever end up needing Sulu.

They're just...there. 

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I know I'm the contrarian here but I enjoy everything about A Night In Sickbay.  It is so far outside the regular storyline box that I take it as a wildly funny character study as if it took place in a dream state. 

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15 minutes ago, Mutai Sho-Rin said:

I know I'm the contrarian here but I enjoy everything about A Night In Sickbay.  It is so far outside the regular storyline box that I take it as a wildly funny character study as if it took place in a dream state. 

And if Archer woke up to find Patrick Duffy in his shower and realize it was all just a crazy dream, I'd chalk it up to that crazy and probably like the episode better. :)

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