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prometheus59650

The Klingon Redesign?

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Maltz   

One problem with these new Klingons is that, if they all always look like that, you would never have gotten K'Ehyler or B'Elanna in the TNG era.

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3 hours ago, Maltz said:

One problem with these new Klingons is that, if they all always look like that, you would never have gotten K'Ehyler or B'Elanna in the TNG era.

Both of whom were half-human as well.  Not to mention that no explanation was ever given as to why Kor, Kang and Koloth all went from smooth headed back to bumpy-headed in DS9 (were they 'reformed' post-augment Klingons?). 

And we don't yet know definitively that there is only one Klingon ethnicity/look within the Empire.  I'm guessing it's a broad spectrum of ethnicities, even if that hasn't been verified onscreen in DSC.  And if....

***** POSSIBLE SPOILER ALERT *****

 

 

....Tyler Ash turns out to be a surgically altered Klingon agent, then it's possible the Klingons continued their work in human augment eugenics, even after the events of ENT's "Divergence." 

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8 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Both of whom were half-human as well.  Not to mention that no explanation was ever given as to why Kor, Kang and Koloth all went from smooth headed back to bumpy-headed in DS9 (were they 'reformed' post-augment Klingons?). 

And we don't yet know definitively that there is only one Klingon ethnicity/look within the Empire.  I'm guessing it's a broad spectrum of ethnicities, even if that hasn't been verified onscreen in DSC.  And if....

***** POSSIBLE SPOILER ALERT *****

 

 

....Tyler Ash turns out to be a surgically altered Klingon agent, then it's possible the Klingons continued their work in human augment eugenics, even after the events of ENT's "Divergence." 

Well, that's possible for them to get a Klingon mole on board the ship. When you stop and think about it, it would be a clever tactic. We've already seen another Klingon mole in the Federation, Arne Darvin from "The Trouble With Tribbles."

I agree with Sehlat Vie about the broad range of ethnicities within the Klingons. We don't know how diverse things actually were. Some probably weren't affected by the events in ENT's "Divergence."

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I think it's best for everyone to forget what has been and just take what you see at present. I realize it's fun to speculate or try to find congruence with the look but that's just more fan navel gazing. This series is aiming to attract a new following, one that doesn't know or care what Klingons used to look like. 

I mentioned elsewhere that I liked the look. They are now alien again instead of just the bumpy forehead look. I also like that they took away their militaristic uniform. It seemed like every Klingon in TNG, DS9, etc.. wore the same uniform. That got stale. 

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5 hours ago, Nombrecomun said:

I think it's best for everyone to forget what has been and just take what you see at present. I realize it's fun to speculate or try to find congruence with the look but that's just more fan navel gazing.

It really isn't - it's a lot more than that. People will always try and find a sense of coherency in fantasies - it's part of the human imagination's agency, to find those patterns and hook their own theories into them, make it a whole tapestry. It's how mass entertainment works, especially nowadays when you have vast fan networks linked by the Internet. And that's a vital difference between the first time the Klingons were redesigned, when there was no Internet, and now - the ability to make immediate visual comparisons brings about a sort of imaginative disconnect.

5 hours ago, Nombrecomun said:

 

This series is aiming to attract a new following, one that doesn't know or care what Klingons used to look like. 

The showrunners stated unequivocally they wanted to attract all the old fanbase. What they're doing, clearly, is trying to have their cake and eat it by also aiming to attract a new fanbase, and the old scenery-chewing Space Viking Klingons wouldn't cut it. But honestly? In my humble opinion, neither do these, especially not when they're trying to do Shakespeare-style dialogue in a fictional language  through all those prosthetics. I admire their ambition, but the execution leaves something to be desired.

5 hours ago, Nombrecomun said:

I mentioned elsewhere that I liked the look. They are now alien again instead of just the bumpy forehead look. I also like that they took away their militaristic uniform. It seemed like every Klingon in TNG, DS9, etc.. wore the same uniform. That got stale. 

I agree that got stale. I like how the new ones look. They look cool. They behave in more nuanced ways. But they should've been an entirely new, different species - it just would've been easier for fans, new and old, to suspend disbelief.

When we get a really good character like L'Rell, played by a really great actor like Mary Chieffo, it seems churlish to not like it as whole. Clearly a hell of a lot of effort has gone into this. However, as a reimagining of a major piece of pop culture, it all amounts to less than the sum of its parts. These new Klingons don't only have an all-new look, but an all-new culture and nuances too. I think it's difficult for fans to even parse them as the same species.

I think they're the weakest aspect of Discovery so far, and it isn't just because of how they look. It's because everything about them is so radically different, a little unconvincing and also, L'Rell aside, they're booooooring.

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5 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

I agree that got stale. I like how the new ones look. They look cool. They behave in more nuanced ways. But they should've been an entirely new, different species - it just would've been easier for fans, new and old, to suspend disbelief.

I think this might’ve been easier if they’d done as you and I & Mr. Picard stated earlier; set it post 24th century.

All the same, I’m still not terribly perturbed by the redesign, other than the obvious limitations placed upon the performers by prosthetics and the ornate (though beautiful) costumes.

5 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

These new Klingons don't only have an all-new look, but an all-new culture and nuances too.

These Klingons remind me a LOT of the Klingons we saw in TUC.  A part of me can’t help but wonder if that were one of Nicholas Meyer’s few touches (?).

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8 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

I think this might’ve been easier if they’d done as you and I & Mr. Picard stated earlier; set it post 24th century.

It just means they would’ve avoided hitting that “ceiling” of established lore, as you called it. 

8 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

All the same, I’m still not terribly perturbed by the redesign, other than the obvious limitations placed upon the performers by prosthetics and the ornate (though beautiful) costumes.

Sometimes, while watching, I find myself distracted by that rubbery bit of L’Rell’s lip that doesn’t quite match up with Chieffo’s own real mouth and it zaps me out of my immersion in the story. It’s not a huge deal, but given the lengths they’ve gone to design all this beautiful, alien stuff, it seems like a glitch that could be avoided or corrected, but it ruins the overall illusion. If they’d avoided those ornate prosthetics they might’ve ended up with a better overall effect.  

8 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

These Klingons remind me a LOT of the Klingons we saw in TUC.  A part of me can’t help but wonder if that were one of Nicholas Meyer’s few touches (?).

The TUC Klingons were, for me, the best take on them - they were sophisticated, war not being their only means of expression. Gorkon and Chang were ideologically at different ends of the spectrum, and yet they were both Klingons.  You could really believe in them.

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43 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

Sometimes, while watching, I find myself distracted by that rubbery bit of L’Rell’s lip that doesn’t quite match up with Chieffo’s own real mouth and it zaps me out of my immersion in the story. It’s not a huge deal, but given the lengths they’ve gone to design all this beautiful, alien stuff, it seems like a glitch that could be avoided or corrected, but it ruins the overall illusion. If they’d avoided those ornate prosthetics they might’ve ended up with a better overall effect. 

:laugh:

That would’ve made a great unmade “Seinfeld” episode: 

350?cb=20170928222528&path-prefix=enJerry-Seinfeld-Shivering-With-Disgust-Re

Jerry:  “You got a little something on your lip, there..."

 

48 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

The TUC Klingons were, for me, the best take on them - they were sophisticated, war not being their only means of expression. Gorkon and Chang were ideologically at different ends of the spectrum, and yet they were both Klingons.  You could really believe in them.

Even in the span of a 2 hour movie, I related to them better than I had before and possibly since.   Gorkon and Azetbur seemed truly capable of real governance, and not just screaming on about war all of the time; which is not only unrealistic, but ultimately unsustainable (as the movie relates).

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7 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

:laugh:

That would’ve made a great unmade “Seinfeld” episode: 

350?cb=20170928222528&path-prefix=enJerry-Seinfeld-Shivering-With-Disgust-Re

Jerry:  “You got a little something on your lip, there..."

It’s funny that you should mention that. I have a theory that Discovery’s final episode will feature time-travel back to 21st century New York City where the Klingons will be forced to take up residence in a small studio flat in Brooklyn and work in coffee shops to sustain themselves. No-one will bat an eyelid as to their appearances, of course. And they’ll decide they like it so much, they’ll just stay, until Trump comes to power whereupon they’re outed as illegal aliens.  

7 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

 

Even in the span of a 2 hour movie, I related to them better than I had before and possibly since.   Gorkon and Azetbur seemed truly capable of real governance, and not just screaming on about war all of the time; which is not only unrealistic, but ultimately unsustainable (as the movie relates).

That’s why it’s the best Star Trek movie. :) 

 

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nepr   
11 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

:laugh:

That would’ve made a great unmade “Seinfeld” episode: 

350?cb=20170928222528&path-prefix=enJerry-Seinfeld-Shivering-With-Disgust-Re

Jerry:  “You got a little something on your lip, there..."

 

Even in the span of a 2 hour movie, I related to them better than I had before and possibly since.   Gorkon and Azetbur seemed truly capable of real governance, and not just screaming on about war all of the time; which is not only unrealistic, but ultimately unsustainable (as the movie relates).

OT... Just happened to view, Seinfeld, S08E1 (1996), The Foundation.  Prominent:  Star Trek II:  The Wrath of Khan, (George, heaven help him, finds himself still more moved by Spock's death, than the recent demise of his fiance, Susan), and, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock (Kramer gives Elaine rather disjointed advice based on his Katra).  George also does a variation on the Khan-wail.  Both of the movies are mentioned by name.  Strange the way pop culture so often swallows its own tail.

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7 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

It’s funny that you should mention that. I have a theory that Discovery’s final episode will feature time-travel back to 21st century New York City where the Klingons will be forced to take up residence in a small studio flat in Brooklyn and work in coffee shops to sustain themselves. No-one will bat an eyelid as to their appearances, of course. And they’ll decide they like it so much, they’ll just stay, until Trump comes to power whereupon they’re outed as illegal aliens.  

Oh man, that would SO happen too....:laugh:

3 hours ago, nepr said:

OT... Just happened to view, Seinfeld, S08E1 (1996), The Foundation.  Prominent:  Star Trek II:  The Wrath of Khan, (George, heaven help him, finds himself still more moved by Spock's death, than the recent demise of his fiance, Susan), and, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock (Kramer gives Elaine rather disjointed advice based on his Katra).  George also does a variation on the Khan-wail.  Both of the movies are mentioned by name.  Strange the way pop culture so often swallows its own tail.

:laugh:

I loved that line, “It was a helluva thing when Spock died!"

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Aesir   

They quote Kahless but he  didn't look anything like them. The first batleth doesn't resemble the new version either.  From what I've seen it's not just certain houses that look like that but ALL of them look this way. Tweaking things a bit is ok but changes on this scale is a bit much. They should have gone with a completely new race in a different century imo.

Edited by Aesir

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