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prometheus59650

The Klingon Redesign?

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I don't have a problem with it. I mean, Kingons may have different ridge-structures the same way as we humans have different skin colors/complexions. As with their ship interiors (and for that matter that radical transporter difference on the Shenzhou) - I quote this from J. Michael Straczynski when he was talking about the "Babylon 5: Legend of the Rangers" made-for-TV movie done by Sci-Fi Channel:

(One thing I'm curious about is the assumption that we've seen all of the Minbari ships. We've literally seen only a handful. Go to Jane's books on military weapons, planes in particular, and you get all *kinds* of variation...from ospreys to f16s to cargo jets to hovercraft...why should there be less variation in a more advanced society like the Minbari?)

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41 minutes ago, Rusty0918 said:

I don't have a problem with it. I mean, Kingons may have different ridge-structures the same way as we humans have different skin colors/complexions. As with their ship interiors (and for that matter that radical transporter difference on the Shenzhou) - I quote this from J. Michael Straczynski when he was talking about the "Babylon 5: Legend of the Rangers" made-for-TV movie done by Sci-Fi Channel:

(One thing I'm curious about is the assumption that we've seen all of the Minbari ships. We've literally seen only a handful. Go to Jane's books on military weapons, planes in particular, and you get all *kinds* of variation...from ospreys to f16s to cargo jets to hovercraft...why should there be less variation in a more advanced society like the Minbari?)

Oh, I don't have a problem with it either. I actually think it's a bit of clever innovation.

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Works for me.

Considering the biodiversity of life on Earth?  To expect a similar diversity elsewhere in the universe is okay in my book. 

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You know, I once did a Trek fanfic that featured the Cardassian version of an albino (Green skin, different forehead features, etc.) - something I came up with.

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4 minutes ago, Rusty0918 said:

You know, I once did a Trek fanfic that featured the Cardassian version of an albino (Green skin, different forehead features, etc.) - something I came up with.

I could very much see that working.   And why not, right?
 

If one were an alien who landed on Earth in a region where one only saw dark skinned people and then saw an albino nearby what would they think?  Would they assume the albino was another species?   What if one saw a human male and female but had no concept of gender?  Would they assume the man and woman were different species?

Or conversely, if one saw a bunch of horses and then saw a zebra, would you just assume the zebra was merely a striped horse? 

It’s fascinating territory to explore.   I’m very curious to see diversity within the Klingon genome, and since we don’t see as much of it in the 24th century, can we assume there was a war (or plague) that wiped out some of those houses and some of that diversity? 

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http://io9.gizmodo.com/these-discovery-props-reveal-a-ton-about-star-treks-new-1797102750

Read this great io9 analysis of the Klingon props now on display as SDCC. Here is a quote from io9: "The plaque explains that these aren’t based on TOS-style Klingons, but the “ornate, re-imagined” weapons are based on the films and The Next Generation’s Klingons. Which makes sense, even though Discovery takes place before the original series, Star Trek has always—save a throwaway line in things like Deep Space Nine’s “Trials and Tribble-ations”—just pretended that the ridge-headed Klingons from TNG are what they’ve always looked like."

I'm loving the re-imagining! Main reason is this: it's not just about the LOOK, it's becasue the show wants to use the Klingons to further a specific STORY and their look is part of that. By which I mean, they did not start from the premise of "How can we make the Klingon's look in relation to previous Trek." But instead: "we need an alien race that looks to general audience as very alien, but their culture is very medieval/Shakespearean/Game-of-Thronesy--what would that look like?"

 

Also this: a design poster describes the ship as having an "islamic outer shell" and you see a very elaborate metal carving. This is just a design inspiration. However, my pet theory has been that any re-imagined Klingons should be allegorical stand ins for Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia or Iran, etc. My hope is that in building this show Bryan Fuller did this with the Klingons. Not sure but this is an early clue. 

 

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13 hours ago, Justin Snead said:

http://io9.gizmodo.com/these-discovery-props-reveal-a-ton-about-star-treks-new-1797102750

Read this great io9 analysis of the Klingon props now on display as SDCC. Here is a quote from io9: "The plaque explains that these aren’t based on TOS-style Klingons, but the “ornate, re-imagined” weapons are based on the films and The Next Generation’s Klingons. Which makes sense, even though Discovery takes place before the original series, Star Trek has always—save a throwaway line in things like Deep Space Nine’s “Trials and Tribble-ations”—just pretended that the ridge-headed Klingons from TNG are what they’ve always looked like."

 

 

Someone there apparently never saw the ENT episodes that tried to explain in great detail why the Klingons looked different. Not that I'm really complaining when folks drop ENT from Trek canon, but... ahem....? lol

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34 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

Someone there apparently never saw the ENT episodes that tried to explain in great detail why the Klingons looked different. Not that I'm really complaining when folks drop ENT from Trek canon, but... ahem....? lol

Even if they never did, it wouldn't bother me.

If you were an alien visiting Earth and saw a 98 lb. French ballerina standing next to a 350 lb. Japanese sumo wrestler, you might have a hard time believing they were of the same species.   Personally, I like the idea of a Klingon society with multiple ethnicities and social orders, etc.. 

It makes them more 'real' to me.  Frankly I got a little sick of the "Vikings in Space" we saw for so long on Star Trek.

The designs of the Klingons I saw in person yesterday (at the ST DSC exhibit here at Comic Con San Diego) were beautiful and ornate; they reminded me more of something from Feudal Japan rather than Viking Bikers in Space (as a former motorcyclist myself, I don't intend the term 'biker' as a slur in ANY way :)).

Oh, and if you want to see my pics?  Click on my signature below for my blog at musingsofamiddleagedgeek.com

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4 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Even if they never did, it wouldn't bother me.

If you were an alien visiting Earth and saw a 98 lb. French ballerina standing next to a 350 lb. Japanese sumo wrestler, you might have a hard time believing they were of the same species.   Personally, I like the idea of a Klingon society with multiple ethnicities and social orders, etc.. 

It makes them more 'real' to me.  Frankly I got a little sick of the "Vikings in Space" we saw for so long on Star Trek.

The designs of the Klingons I saw in person yesterday (at the ST DSC exhibit here at Comic Con San Diego) were beautiful and ornate; they reminded me more of something from Feudal Japan rather than Viking Bikers in Space (as a former motorcyclist myself, I don't intend the term 'biker' as a slur in ANY way :)).

Oh, and if you want to see my pics?  Click on my signature below for my blog at musingsofamiddleagedgeek.com

Klingons as a society tend to bore me either way, no matter how they look, so I'm honestly indifferent to what Discovery might or might not do... I just found it amusing that the article mentioned above seemed to completely have forgotten (or ignored, haha) ENT. :laugh:

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2 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

Klingons as a society tend to bore me either way, no matter how they look, so I'm honestly indifferent to what Discovery might or might not do... I just found it amusing that the article mentioned above seemed to completely have forgotten (or ignored, haha) ENT. :laugh:

Doesn't everybody?  Sad...I like ENT a lot better now than I did when it aired.  :P

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1 minute ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Doesn't everybody?  Sad...I like ENT a lot better now than I did when it aired.  :P

I don't headcanon ENT as a Prime Timeline canon either but the official line of reasoning is that it IS supposed to fit in there, so if I were to write a blog article for a website like io9, I might JUUUUST look things up... :laugh: I mean all it would have taken was one look at Memory Alpha to see that it there's a LITTLE more to the way Klingons look than just off-handed remarks on DS9. Especially since ENT kinda ruins the entire point/argument the author is trying to make, lol.

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13 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

I don't headcanon ENT as a Prime Timeline canon either but the official line of reasoning is that it IS supposed to fit in there, so if I were to write a blog article for a website like io9, I might JUUUUST look things up... :laugh: I mean all it would have taken was one look at Memory Alpha to see that it there's a LITTLE more to the way Klingons look than just off-handed remarks on DS9. Especially since ENT kinda ruins the entire point/argument the author is trying to make, lol.

To me, it's an alternate timeline created in the wake of the movie "First Contact"; just as DSC will be an alternate timeline to me.  If they were going to be totally 'true' to TOS that would mean tabulating computers, sexist jokes at women's expenses, etc. and frankly that's just not where we are these days as a culture.  

I'll take the revamped ST as long as it stays true to ST's overall mission statement, and not to those elements that no longer work.  ST is about ideas, not smooth/bumpy Klingons or clunky retro-looking technology.

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1 minute ago, Sehlat Vie said:

To me, it's an alternate timeline created in the wake of the movie "First Contact"; just as DSC will be an alternate timeline to me.  If they were going to be totally 'true' to TOS that would mean tabulating computers, sexist jokes at women's expenses, etc. and frankly that's just not where we are these days as a culture.  

I'll take the revamped ST as long as it stays true to ST's overall mission statement, and not to those elements that no longer work.  ST is about ideas, not smooth/bumpy Klingons or clunky retro-looking technology.

Tell that to the folks who created the #NotMyKlingons hashtag on Twitter and are waving their social media pitchforks at CBS... ;)

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Well, it's possible not all Klingons were susceptible to the agument virus - like there are some people I hear today who are genetically immune to HIV. 

1 hour ago, Sehlat Vie said:

If you were an alien visiting Earth and saw a 98 lb. French ballerina standing next to a 350 lb. Japanese sumo wrestler, you might have a hard time believing they were of the same species.   Personally, I like the idea of a Klingon society with multiple ethnicities and social orders, etc.. 

It makes them more 'real' to me.  Frankly I got a little sick of the "Vikings in Space" we saw for so long on Star Trek.

Exactly Sehlat Vie. It really makes more sense this way when you really come to think about it. Not to mention differences in architecture, etc. For example, who is to say that all Romulans in the TNG era had those extra forehead features? There may have been some that didn't (and some truly didn't - e.g. Nero).

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1 hour ago, Mr.Picard said:

Tell that to the folks who created the #NotMyKlingons hashtag on Twitter and are waving their social media pitchforks at CBS... ;)

Luckily I didn't see ANY of those at the Star Trek Discovery exhibit yesterday here at San Diego Comic Con.  They might've been too busy pitching virtual Molotov cocktails into CBS' mainframe.  :laugh:

37 minutes ago, Rusty0918 said:

Well, it's possible not all Klingons were susceptible to the agument virus - like there are some people I hear today who are genetically immune to HIV. 

Exactly Sehlat Vie. It really makes more sense this way when you really come to think about it. Not to mention differences in architecture, etc. For example, who is to say that all Romulans in the TNG era had those extra forehead features? There may have been some that didn't (and some truly didn't - e.g. Nero).

Very true.

Compare architecture of say, traditional Japanese to that of Sweden.  Or Ancient Greece to modern North American suburbs.   Not to mention the wild variations in world languages (!).  Personally I like that there are ridged Romulans and smooth Romulans, just as there are 'biker Klingons' and Feudal warrior Klingons.  

The costumes, production art and other Klingon artifacts I saw yesterday informed me that these Klingons will be a more graceful and ornate Klingon sect than we've yet seen on Star Trek.   I'm curious to see where they go with this.

In a way, it reminds me of the abandoned 1975 ST Phase II episode "Kitumba" (later remade as a New Voyages/Phase II fan film) which was loosely modeled on Feudal Japan.  That episode (as originally scripted) showed a somewhat different Klingon culture than the surly pirate/bikers we saw on most of ST from 1979 thru 2005.

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If it is true that this is just a different "ethnic" group of Klingons - that might be interesting. Star Trek has always had an unfortunate habit of making every alien have a single culture with a singular behavioral trait. (usually at least). It's why I liked the Klingon scientist in ENT that admitted in his culture he is a pariah in a way.

Having said that ... this is tricky considering this is a prequel. Why was this group of Klingons never seen later on? It's like when Nemesis introduced the Remans. Really? All this time the Romulans had a slave race that are often used as bodyguards and soldiers during the Dominion War? Funny - TNG/DS9 prominently featured Romulans and we never saw them. I guess you could use the excuse that those instances - they just simply were never around. I can stomach that.

I think my personal grievance with the redesign of the Klingons (besides being tired of them being changed over and over ...) is ........

I hate that they are getting increasingly "uglier" and more monstrous. It is lazy story-telling. The Klingons are the villains - thus - they have to look like monsters. Otherwise ...... (What? We won't understand they are bad guys?) That type of story telling works in a big budget sci-fi movie where evil aliens are invading earth and Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum have to save us. Why have this in Star Trek?

I can't believe I am using Voyager as an example, but there was an episode (Nemesis - I think) in the series where Chakotay gets captured and brainwashed into fighting some war. He sees the soldiers, who look human, as the good guys. The enemy looks monstrous and hideous (kind of like a Predator if I recall correctly). In the end - you find out the "good human-looking" aliens were actually bad because they were conscripting aliens to fight in their war via conditioning. Meanwhile, the "evil monster alien" was actually good and helped Voyager get Chakotay back.

The episode's moral message was about hate and how it's easy to slip into but not easy to let go. However, I think a subtler message I got was .... don't always judge by other's appearance. The really alien-looking species could be a friend and the one that looks just like you could be an enemy.

The message resonates a lot more than Abrams and STD (horrible acronym) turning the Klingons into monsters. Yes, Roddenberry too since he started the trend of making them look less human.

With that said - I get it. The original Klingons looked "lame" and they didn't want to re-use that. Plus, today, they looks racially insensitive with brown face and fu manchu goatees. I get it. It has to be "updated". But still .... I feel a subtler approach would have been nicer instead of making video game-looking villains. That's just my two slips of latinum.

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On 7/22/2017 at 0:09 PM, The Founder said:

 

I hate that they are getting increasingly "uglier" and more monstrous. It is lazy story-telling. The Klingons are the villains - thus - they have to look like monsters. Otherwise ...... (What? We won't understand they are bad guys?) That type of story telling works in a big budget sci-fi movie where evil aliens are invading earth and Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum have to save us. Why have this in Star Trek?

 

Haaa but see your point is why I think they made the Klingons more alien-looking and more monstrous! So many people working on the show say that the main theme os DSC is about accepting difference and finding common ground. That theme will come across more powerfully the more difference there is between the two peoples your story is thrusting together.

Undiscovered Country tried to do this--Recall last year when Nick Myer said that movie was a touchstone for DSC?--but it did so in kind of cheesy ways: with comments about how Klingon's smell and don't have good table manners.

I think DSC is going to make it's Klingons extremely other (perhaps even Islamic-inspired) and then have characters working to overcome that otherness.    

  

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4 minutes ago, Justin Snead said:

Haaa but see your point is why I think they made the Klingons more alien-looking and more monstrous! So many people working on the show say that the main theme os DSC is about accepting difference and finding common ground. That theme will come across more powerfully the more difference there is between the two peoples your story is thrusting together.

Undiscovered Country tried to do this--Recall last year when Nick Myer said that movie was a touchstone for DSC?--but it did so in kind of cheesy ways: with comments about how Klingon's smell and don't have good table manners.

I think DSC is going to make it's Klingons extremely other (perhaps even Islamic-inspired) and then have characters working to overcome that otherness.    

  

If that is the case - then I can stomach the radical change in their design. Although, you'd think creating a new alien species that is "monstrous" could have done the same. But I guess they'd run into the same problem as the Xindi with ENT.

But yeah - hopefully that is the route they'll go.

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Well, to be fair, the Klingons in DSC do have similar traits to what they had from TMP-onwards.

I'm not going to pass judgment on them until I see the final product. As I said before, I mean, Klingons most likely have different sub-cultures, like here on Earth, not to mention different attire.

Keep in mind the Andorians were a bit re-designed for ENT.

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7 hours ago, Rusty0918 said:

Well, to be fair, the Klingons in DSC do have similar traits to what they had from TMP-onwards.

I'm not going to pass judgment on them until I see the final product. As I said before, I mean, Klingons most likely have different sub-cultures, like here on Earth, not to mention different attire.

Keep in mind the Andorians were a bit re-designed for ENT.

And the Romulans for TNG.  Hell, even the Tellarites were given quite a makeover in ENT.

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Here is co show runner Harberts on Klingons: 

We are also talking about not only war, but something that is really bubbling up in the United States right now, isolationism. Our country has so many different philosophies. Do we extend a hand? Do we shut it down? And that is also two viewpoints that are being expressed. The Klingons are not necessarily the Russians anymore. The Klingons – I think we will see far more in, frankly, people in the United States and different factions in the United States.

And that is not to say they are bad, but what we really wanted to do too is understand two differing points of view and really explore it. And I think when people look at the Klingons – I frankly love what they represent. Not in terms necessarily of all the messaging, but in terms of learning about them and learning why they are who they are and making sure they aren’t just the enemy.

And then finding a way to come together. How do we bring everyone back together? What do we do? What does it take? It is a big challenge for us, but that is what season one is all about.

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The re-designs for Tellarites and Andorians were needed because the original aliens hadn't been seen since TOS and they looked ridiculous (compared to early 2000 make up). The Romulan re-design was largely disliked. Especially since an integral aspect of them is they look exactly like Vulcans. With them becoming typical "bumpy forehead" aliens - they became generic.

If they reveal that this is some subspecies of Klingons - then it is tolerable. But I am not getting that vibe at all. I think this is the Klingons. Again - the reason I dislike it is cause of the message of "ugly"="evil" and the Klingons have been redesigned so many times. It was largely unnecessary to "update" them in this way.

I'm not saying the "show sucks" or whatever. It actually looks pretty good and has a solid cast. I'm keeping an open mind. Just ... not so open that my brain falls out.

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