GustavoLeao

Discovery and Me

92 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

If the stories suck, then I'm gonna really weigh in.

TOS was always made on a shoestring. The riches that were given to it - and in turn, to us - were the inventiveness and imagination of the stories.

Very much agreed.

Same with Doctor Who, or classic Twilight Zone, or many other favorite TV series of mine.   Production values augment a good story, but they don't compensate for a lack of one.  That trick can work in movies where the screen is so big it overwhelms the senses, but it doesn't necessarily do the same on an iPad or a smaller TV set.  Television relies on storytelling.  But I'm willing to cautiously give DSC the benefit of the doubt, because nothing I've seen so far gives me any real reason not to do so.

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I will judge it when I see it. I have come to the conclusion, the Discovery might be section31? The Klingons might be some Klingons from maybe 300 to 400 years, kept in frozen. For example, "The 37's, "The Neutral Zone". My complant is why not make it look more inline with the Enterprise NCC-1701? Its best to see what the pilot is about.

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45 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I will judge it when I see it. I have come to the conclusion, the Discovery might be section31? The Klingons might be some Klingons from maybe 300 to 400 years, kept in frozen. For example, "The 37's, "The Neutral Zone". My complant is why not make it look more inline with the Enterprise NCC-1701? Its best to see what the pilot is about.

From rumors and whatnot, it seems like Discovery is some kind of exploration vessel rather than a S31 ship.   As for the Klingons?  Maybe they’re just another tribe or sect of Klingons; just as people from certain parts of this planet look superficially different than people from others.   Perhaps with Klingons, the differences are less subtle. 

As for why it doesn’t look more consistent with TOS?  You really can’t go back in time with that look.   TOS production design might work for a fan film; fan film audiences have a lot of affection for such quaint anachronisms.  But to a general audience new to ST, using that look in a new television series would be laughable.   It’d be Galaxy Quest, not Star Trek. 

Like Doctor Who, I think it’s wise that the show evolve its look for modern audiences; otherwise it’ll be nothing more than a relic.   The television equivalent of the old mom or dad trying to party with their kids...

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28 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

As for why it doesn’t look more consistent with TOS?  You really can’t go back in time with that look.   TOS production design might work for a fan film; fan film audiences have a lot of affection for such quaint anachronisms.  But to a general audience new to ST, using that look in a new television series would be laughable.   It’d be Galaxy Quest, not Star Trek. 

Like Doctor Who, I think it’s wise that the show evolve its look for modern audiences; otherwise it’ll be nothing more than a relic.   The television equivalent of the old mom or dad trying to party with their kids...

I can't speak for Scotty but I don't think he meant to say "make it look EXACTLY" like the good old 1701, he said "make it look more IN LINE" with it, which might just mean "make it look less advanced than it looks now". You don't have to re-build sets from "The Cage" for that. Just get rid of some flat screens and make the whole thing look less like a dark Apple Store.

In short: Take inspiration from "The Cage", not the blueprints. I didn't see ANYTHING inspired by "The Cage", except the communicators. It doesn't make me go like "oh cool so this show is set at around the same time as my favorite TOS episode, yeah, I can buy that"... it makes me go like "wait, what? Meh, did they even TRY to follow their own prequel premise here or what". (Same feeling I had with ENT and would still have if I hadn't found a headcanon way to enjoy the show.)

 

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2 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

I can't speak for Scotty but I don't think he meant to say "make it look EXACTLY" like the good old 1701, he said "make it look more IN LINE" with it, which might just mean "make it look less advanced than it looks now". You don't have to re-build sets from "The Cage" for that. Just get rid of some flat screens and make the whole thing look less like a dark Apple Store.

In short: Take inspiration from "The Cage", not the blueprints. I didn't see ANYTHING inspired by "The Cage", except the communicators. It doesn't make me go like "oh cool so this show is set at around the same time as my favorite TOS episode, yeah, I can buy that"... it makes me go like "wait, what? Meh, did they even TRY to follow their own prequel premise here or what". (Same feeling I had with ENT and would still have if I hadn't found a headcanon way to enjoy the show.)

In that sense, I would say that modern ST is already inspired by “The Cage” in that it has communicators, transporters, etc.   

Even the uniforms in the DSC trailer have a slightly ‘retro' look to them; they almost remind me of the flight attendants in 2001: A Space Odyssey.

Clipboard08.jpgstartrek-discovery-02.jpg

So while it may not draw inspiration directly from “The Cage”?  It seems that there is some attempt (however subtle or even unintentional) to feel ‘retro’ from other modern science fiction properties. 

 

And yes, you and I have our own head-canon solutions to ENT (hehe).  I just prefer to think of it (and possibly DSC) as yet another permutation of ST’s timeline that may (someday, somehow...) approximate to TOS and TNG’s. 

 

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Maybe I'm not picking up any inspiration because I'm not a sci-fi fan and have never seen any retro sci-fi, all I know is "The Cage" and Discovery doesn't look like it, haha.

I'm just less than even SLIGHTLY willing to come up with yet ANOTHER headcanon as to how I can make this show fit into the Trek canon. I wish they'd just say "okay you got us, it's a third timeline, neither Prime nor Kelvin" and ALL complaints would STOP.

 

What intrigues me is that no one so far seems to have really read this recent Nick Meyer quote here:

 

TrekMovie: Obviously there is much much more Star Trek piled up on the shelf now that is harder to ignore. With Wrath of Khan there really wasn’t a lot. Now there may even be too much to deal with.

Meyer: I think that is fair. What I can say is that when Bryan Fuller invented Star Trek: Discovery and conceived it, he found a niche in the chronology that allows for another stream.

TrekMovie: But it still fits as part of that chronology, but you feel there is freedom in that niche?

Meyer: Yeah.

 

 

What he is saying here COULD be interpreted as "it's another timeline". Fuller found a loophole in canon that allows for them to have what they have - an advanced-looking ship in an era set before TOS. "Another stream" sounds very much like "alternate timeline" to me, and I'm baffled as to why no one's really wondering or speculating about this.

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20 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

Maybe I'm not picking up any inspiration because I'm not a sci-fi fan and have never seen any retro sci-fi, all I know is "The Cage" and Discovery doesn't look like it, haha

If only they could work in Robin Wright as an admiral somehow... :giggle: :P

 

21 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

I'm just less than even SLIGHTLY willing to come up with yet ANOTHER headcanon as to how I can make this show fit into the Trek canon. I wish they'd just say "okay you got us, it's a third timeline, neither Prime nor Kelvin" and ALL complaints would STOP.

 

22 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

What he is saying here COULD be interpreted as "it's another timeline". Fuller found a loophole in canon that allows for them to have what they have - an advanced-looking ship in an era set before TOS. "Another stream" sounds very much like "alternate timeline" to me, and I'm baffled as to why no one's really wondering or speculating about this.

^
And I’d be totally cool with that.   

I know Robin and I have said this before (as have others) but I really think they missed an opportunity not setting the series post-VGR.    This is ST’s third attempt at a prequel (if you count the Bad Robot Kelvinverse as prequel).   But as it is?  I’d be fine if they simply said this is yet another timeline in the ST multiverse.   It would allow more latitude with canonical events, and the show would have more freedom to reflect current advances in technology rather than having to find clever ways to work in clunky flip communicators and such...

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The Robin-Wright-As-An-Admiral thing might JUST work since I've seriously put Wonder Woman on my DVD list despite it not being my kind of thing AT ALL. But IT HAS ROBIN WRIGHT and HNNNNNG. So yeah, make her a captain or an admiral in Discovery and I just might have a look. :P

The problem is that CBS has been adamant about Discovery being set in the prime timeline, and so have the writers and producers. They've beat the fandom over the head with "calm down it's not Kelvin timeline, it's Prime timeline!". If it now turns out that it's a third time line after all, people will be... displeased. VERY displeased. And rightfully so - lying to a fandom is never wise.

I also keep wondering just what "niche" Fuller found in Trek's chronology. But then I'm not a TOS era expert, so it's probably for the best if I just don't even try to speculate, haha.

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15 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

The problem is that CBS has been adamant about Discovery being set in the prime timeline, and so have the writers and producers. They've beat the fandom over the head with "calm down it's not Kelvin timeline, it's Prime timeline!". If it now turns out that it's a third time line after all, people will be... displeased. VERY displeased. And rightfully so - lying to a fandom is never wise.

^ I’m not sure if it’s intentional lying or (like Bermaga with ENT) it’s more a case of the producers believing their own press.  Maybe they’ve convinced themselves that they can (somehow?) magically line it all up.  I dunno.   But at any rate, I still think it’s unnecessary to label it as a prime timeline prequel.  

Personally, I’m going to try my best to judge it independently of other ST when it (eventually) premieres.

20 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

I also keep wondering just what "niche" Fuller found in Trek's chronology. But then I'm not a TOS era expert, so it's probably for the best if I just don't even try to speculate, haha.

Maybe DSC is some kind of advanced prototype (?).  Who knows.

It’d be a bit like seeing a Tesla car among the debris of the RMS Titanic at the floor of the North Atlantic...

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58 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

^ I’m not sure if it’s intentional lying or (like Bermaga with ENT) it’s more a case of the producers believing their own press.  Maybe they’ve convinced themselves that they can (somehow?) magically line it all up.  I dunno.   But at any rate, I still think it’s unnecessary to label it as a prime timeline prequel.  

Personally, I’m going to try my best to judge it independently of other ST when it (eventually) premieres.

Maybe DSC is some kind of advanced prototype (?).  Who knows.

It’d be a bit like seeing a Tesla car among the debris of the RMS Titanic at the floor of the North Atlantic...

I just hope they won't call Discovery a "valentine's day gift to the fans" because THAT will be when I run out of the room, screaming "NOT AGAIN" :P But it's very possible that you're right. The writers and actors and producers ARE doing their best to hype the show (of course they are, they HAVE to, and some of them are actually nice on Twitter, I have to admit it, even though I'm not interested in their product they're still nice to me, kudos) and this whole thing just might be a case of "if you beeeeend this faaaaar enough it miiiiiight fit into the prime timeline" (now WHERE have I heard THAT one before... *looks at ENT*) And I agree. I also wish they had just really said "Third time line, yo. New beginning." 

Fuller did always say that he found an "event" in Trek canon that he decided to expand upon with Discovery. That's what I'm wondering - what event is that? What caught his attention SO much that he decided to revolve an entire show around it? What can possibly be so important and profound that you risk alienating an entire fandom AGAIN by making a prequel series AGAIN? It must be REAAAAAALLY big.

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1 hour ago, Mr.Picard said:

I just hope they won't call Discovery a "valentine's day gift to the fans" because THAT will be when I run out of the room, screaming "NOT AGAIN" :P

^
Hey!  My therapist said that didn’t happen, so stop bringing it up... :laugh:

1 hour ago, Mr.Picard said:

Fuller did always say that he found an "event" in Trek canon that he decided to expand upon with Discovery. That's what I'm wondering - what event is that? What caught his attention SO much that he decided to revolve an entire show around it? What can possibly be so important and profound that you risk alienating an entire fandom AGAIN by making a prequel series AGAIN? It must be REAAAAAALLY big.

Let’s just hope we don't have to hear the words ‘temporal cold war’ again anytime soon... :P

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For me the bottom line is dialogue and story. If Discovery can come anywhere close to TNG and DS9 then that will be good. But the new look for the Klingons just annoyed me, the Klingons in JJ Trek looked awful.

I'm not sure what the viewing options are for the UK or when UK Trekkies can see Discovery, but I will be tuning in to see the pilot and the first series.

Personally don't be surprised if Discovery does turn out to be a trainwreck, the first season of TNG and large parts of DS9's 1st season were train wrecks. The second season of both of those shows alternated between greatness and a trainwreck, finally when it came to the 3rd season the show found its groove.

If Discovery makes it to the 3rd season then it can only be great- every series post-TOS has proved this to be true. So it should hold for Discovery. In fact I would be more worried if Discovery was very good in the first season because things only go downhill: look at TOS and Voyager. With TOS it started dipping downwards from season 2 and with Voyager it got stuck in a rut and was often very cautious with its story-telling; unlike DS9 which went places.

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While I agree it was totally unnecessary and a really stupid move to make this show another prequel, rather than placing it post-24th century, for all the reasons that have been pointed out before --

Personally, I'll probably have much less problems adapting to alleged continuity issues and modern looks, than others will: For me, visuals aren't part of the canon, and much like I accepted the quasi-reimagination of TOS in the TOS movies (compared to the series), I'll be able to accept another (visual and stylistic) reimagination.* As I said before, continuity for me is about the stories, not so much about the looks -- much like the same play looks different when different actors and directors interpret it differently on different stages at different theatres with different production values; yet the play might be the same.

*(And yeah, someone might say "it's no reimagination because the movies take place 15 years after TOS", but I don't buy that -- nobody can tell me a world will visually change that radically in 15 years only. One example would be the Klingons -- they did not look entirely different, but also behaved differently. And I find the need to absolutely *have to* get onscreen explanations rather cheap and somewhat anal: Why not accept some ambiguity? Worf's line in DS9 "Trials and Tribble-ations" was just perfect and totally sufficient, IMO.

I wish Star Trek fans could take such obviously production-based reasons for continuity change with the same grain of salt as, say, Doctor Who fans have no problem with the fact that show doesn't take itself dead seriously, and often easily shruggs off continuity "errors" with offhand jokes.)

 

All that said, I do care that the spirit and general continuity is respected. It may be another interpretation on a different stage with different production values, but it MUST be recognizable as the same play (to stay within my comparison).

But in the end, what matters most, IMO is that it's just a good show. By that I mean that even people who have never seen ST before can watch it and agree it's a good show that's well made -- good stories, good actors, good visuals, good drama. If it's really really good? I could probably accept a lot of freedom with the source material -- if it's a show I'd enjoy watching even if it wasn't Star Trek? Perfect.

And even if it isn't, in its first season -- Integral has a good point: Most other ST shows weren't strong from the start, either. Which means I'd also give the show a lot of leeway to find its own style and pace, even if I'm not entirely convinced at first.

We didn't have new Star Trek on tv for almost 13 years, and no Star Trek I considered stellar for 18 years -- I personally won't throw the show under the bus too quickly, just because it isn't perfect from the first moment.

 

And who knows? Maybe that rumor about Meyer means they're already working on a spin-off show? In that case, I guess they'd focus on making the first show a show directed more towards a general audience, including a new generation unfamiliar with Trek, and the second would rather take all the criticism into account DSC gets already. <------------------- But okay, that's really just totally unfounded, wild speculation. One can dream, eh? :laugh:

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1 hour ago, Sim said:

And who knows? Maybe that rumor about Meyer means they're already working on a spin-off show? In that case, I guess they'd focus on making the first show a show directed more towards a general audience, including a new generation unfamiliar with Trek, and the second would rather take all the criticism into account DSC gets already. <------------------- But okay, that's really just totally unfounded, wild speculation. One can dream, eh? :laugh:

Remember that rumor right at the very beginning,before we knew DSC was a "prequel"...? That it would be an anthology show that told tales set in several different periods of the Trek timeline, maybe even taking in mirror universes, Kelvinverses...? Maybe it's that.

Total speculation, of course. :)

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Posted (edited)

32 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

Remember that rumor right at the very beginning,before we knew DSC was a "prequel"...? That it would be an anthology show that told tales set in several different periods of the Trek timeline, maybe even taking in mirror universes, Kelvinverses...? Maybe it's that.

Total speculation, of course. :)

That would explain a lot! :thumbup:

We're just speculating of course... but that's fun! Fuller also said something like they could still call him again for season 2... that would make some sense in this context, too? Maybe it was the concept from the beginning to change parts of the production team each season...

What happened to that rumor anyway? Was it ever explicitly denied?

Edited by Sim

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4 hours ago, Robin Bland said:

Remember that rumor right at the very beginning,before we knew DSC was a "prequel"...? That it would be an anthology show that told tales set in several different periods of the Trek timeline, maybe even taking in mirror universes, Kelvinverses...? Maybe it's that.

Total speculation, of course. :)

 star trek kirk william shatner GIF

Ooooh, that’s right!  I liked that idea.  I could get behind that speculation. :thumbup:

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7 hours ago, Sim said:

That would explain a lot! :thumbup:

We're just speculating of course... but that's fun! Fuller also said something like they could still call him again for season 2... that would make some sense in this context, too? Maybe it was the concept from the beginning to change parts of the production team each season...

What happened to that rumor anyway? Was it ever explicitly denied?

Don't think so. :)

3 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

star trek kirk william shatner GIF

Ooooh, that’s right!  I liked that idea.  I could get behind that speculation. :thumbup:

Fingers crossed...

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