GustavoLeao

Discovery and Me

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1 hour ago, Justin Snead said:

I KNOW that Discovery is for me. I just feel it. I won't try to push it on other fans. But personally I am excited. I am ready to transport.  

^
Me too.

It's high time for a new Star Trek; especially with how bleak things are feeling here in the US right now...  I need a big booster shot of optimism. ;)

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I completely understand your feelings Justin. The last great STAR TREK episode, at least for me, was DS9 finale in 1999. ALthough I found some of Voyager seasons good entertaimnet (specially seasons 4 and 5), I really did not care for Enterprise and also stop after a few season 1 episodes, only returning for the season 4 episodes, which I found average. So yeah, there you are.

Gus

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What I'm kinda hoping for is that Discovery spurs new interest in Trek, regardless of whether it's my kind of show or not.  With enough popularity, we might just earn some post-Nemesis prime timeline content.

I am still pretty excited for the show, just for the fact that it's *new* Star Trek television.  I grew up with DS9 and VOY and since Enterprise was cancelled there's been a Star Trek-shaped hole in the world.  And while I very much enjoyed Beyond and some aspects of ST2009 and Into Darkness they didn't scratch that particular itch.

And for those of you who feel that this show is somehow insulting or perverting something you love, I feel that.  I really do.  Every butchered cover of a song I like comes to mind, but I try to think of it like this: if someone likes the cover they just might listen to the original, and a small but real group just might prefer that original, but still be thankful that the cover got them there.

Also I just gotta say that Mr.Picard has spoken some amazing wisdom in this thread and I'm super impressed.

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2 hours ago, doctor_odd said:

...and since Enterprise was cancelled there's been a Star Trek-shaped hole in the world.

^
This.   Very much this. 

Nothing fills the television landscape's hollows quite like ST.

2 hours ago, doctor_odd said:

And for those of you who feel that this show is somehow insulting or perverting something you love, I feel that.  I really do.  Every butchered cover of a song I like comes to mind, but I try to think of it like this: if someone likes the cover they just might listen to the original, and a small but real group just might prefer that original, but still be thankful that the cover got them there.

^  

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2 hours ago, doctor_odd said:

Also I just gotta say that Mr.Picard has spoken some amazing wisdom in this thread and I'm super impressed.

^
Yes, Mr. Picard has a nasty habit of doing that...:P 

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2 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

^
Yes, Mr. Picard has a nasty habit of doing that...:P 

Whoa, rude. :P

Thanks though, Doctor Odd! *blush*

And yes. I have seen it happening - people coming into the fandom through the Nu!Trek movies I mean, and there's a chance that Discovery might achieve the same although I'm not sure if it will be able to reach a lot of people beyond the proposed target audience. If it wasn't on CBS All Access in the US, then yes, probably - Netflix DOES recommend "similar shows to the one you're watching" I believe, and there's a good chance Discovery will attract new fans through this in all the Netflix countries. But in the US, where people will have to pay for an extra streaming service to see it? I doubt it, at least for the moment. (Another reason why it's questionable at best to put this show behind an additional paywall on one of the biggest Star Trek markets.)

The Nu!Trek movies have brought in new fans though, no doubt about that. A lot of them are young folks, and they're crazy about TOS by now (which probably why CBS keeps releasing TOS merchandise in such an extreme manner), but they sometimes tend to struggle with anything that goes beyond that. I've had people tell me "I watched TOS and I fell in love with the characters, and now I'm served this grumpy bald captain, I can't adjust to this, I miss Kirk". But many DO check out all of Trek eventually, even though for most TOS remains their favorite since it was their first. A LOT of them even come to the conclusion that Nu!Trek served as a nice gateway to Trek but "isn't really Star Trek when you know the rest of it". So they did SOMETHING right with Nu!Trek, they DID bring in new fans. It remains to be seen if Discovery can do the same, though - the whole CBS All Access thing serves as a pretty big obstacle here, at least in the US.

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1 hour ago, Mr.Picard said:

Whoa, rude. :P

Thanks though, Doctor Odd! *blush*

And yes. I have seen it happening - people coming into the fandom through the Nu!Trek movies I mean, and there's a chance that Discovery might achieve the same although I'm not sure if it will be able to reach a lot of people beyond the proposed target audience. If it wasn't on CBS All Access in the US, then yes, probably - Netflix DOES recommend "similar shows to the one you're watching" I believe, and there's a good chance Discovery will attract new fans through this in all the Netflix countries. But in the US, where people will have to pay for an extra streaming service to see it? I doubt it, at least for the moment. (Another reason why it's questionable at best to put this show behind an additional paywall on one of the biggest Star Trek markets.)

The Nu!Trek movies have brought in new fans though, no doubt about that. A lot of them are young folks, and they're crazy about TOS by now (which probably why CBS keeps releasing TOS merchandise in such an extreme manner), but they sometimes tend to struggle with anything that goes beyond that. I've had people tell me "I watched TOS and I fell in love with the characters, and now I'm served this grumpy bald captain, I can't adjust to this, I miss Kirk". But many DO check out all of Trek eventually, even though for most TOS remains their favorite since it was their first. A LOT of them even come to the conclusion that Nu!Trek served as a nice gateway to Trek but "isn't really Star Trek when you know the rest of it". So they did SOMETHING right with Nu!Trek, they DID bring in new fans. It remains to be seen if Discovery can do the same, though - the whole CBS All Access thing serves as a pretty big obstacle here, at least in the US.

I wonder, maybe later, DSC will be available on other services or channels beyond CBS AA in the US, too?

Just wondering, because in Germany, it seems like most US shows are apparently sold to different platforms/channels for exclusive first use and "re-runs"/second use.

TWD for example is exclusive on Sky pay tv first, but after 6 months or so, a new season goes to Netflix and/or Amazon, and another 6 months later to free tv.

Maybe the deal between CBS and Netflix includes releasing DSC on Netflix in the US too, some 6 or 12 months after the exclusive first release on CBS AA?

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^ That's why I said "for the moment". I do think most stuff ends up on Netflix at some point, but then, CBS desperately wants to promote its own streaming service and DSC is supposed to be the "flagship show" for that, so maybe things are different for this one.

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23 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

^ That's why I said "for the moment". I do think most stuff ends up on Netflix at some point, but then, CBS desperately wants to promote its own streaming service and DSC is supposed to be the "flagship show" for that, so maybe things are different for this one.

I don't think it'll hit Netflix in the US; the whole point of launching DSC on CBSAA is for CBS to promote their own unique brand of streaming.  Having it come to Netflix later would defeat the purpose.  The only way I could imagine them changing that policy would be if the show were in danger of failing on CBSAA (by not enticing enough new subscribers).  Putting it on Netflix would be a way to stop the hemorrhaging of money from their investment in new ST.  

But when it comes to DSC, I think they know that ST fans tend to be early adopters and/or tech savvy folks who will most likely fork over $7-$9 a month for new ST.  

I've no doubt it'll be on DVD/bluray at some point (just like other Netflix shows), but my guess is it won't come to Netflix.  It would defeat the purpose of this CBSAA experiment. 

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3 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

I don't think it'll hit Netflix in the US; the whole point of launching DSC on CBSAA is for CBS to promote their own unique brand of streaming.  Having it come to Netflix later would defeat the purpose.  The only way I could imagine them changing that policy would be if the show were in danger of failing on CBSAA (by not enticing enough new subscribers).  Putting it on Netflix would be a way to stop the hemorrhaging of money from their investment in new ST.  

But when it comes to DSC, I think they know that ST fans tend to be early adopters and/or tech savvy folks who will most likely fork over $7-$9 a month for new ST.  

I've no doubt it'll be on DVD/bluray at some point (just like other Netflix shows), but my guess is it won't come to Netflix.  It would defeat the purpose of this CBSAA experiment. 

Yeah that makes sense. They know that Star Trek fans will fork over the money, but what about people who AREN'T Star Trek fans yet? (Also, what about the Star Trek fans who DON'T want to or can't subscribe to CBS All Access for whatever reason? There ARE quite a few fans who fall into this category by now.) I honestly don't know if there will be enough Trek fans who subscribe to their new service AND they won't attract new fans this way either who could add a bit more balance to the equation. It all seems VERY risky to me from a business viewpoint. I'd have put it all on Netflix, everywhere - that way they could have a much broader possible audience and no one would have to pay extra. It's beyond me why they choose a STAR TREK series as their flagship show for a streaming service. Star Trek has NEVER had a huge mainstream audience to begin with, and a lot of fans are angry with the franchise, angry with CBS, Axanar drama, yadda, yadda, yadda and WILL refuse to pay for All Access. I can't help but feel like as if CBS is making a huge error in audience size estimation here.

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scenario   
3 hours ago, Mr.Picard said:

Yeah that makes sense. They know that Star Trek fans will fork over the money, but what about people who AREN'T Star Trek fans yet? (Also, what about the Star Trek fans who DON'T want to or can't subscribe to CBS All Access for whatever reason? There ARE quite a few fans who fall into this category by now.) I honestly don't know if there will be enough Trek fans who subscribe to their new service AND they won't attract new fans this way either who could add a bit more balance to the equation. It all seems VERY risky to me from a business viewpoint. I'd have put it all on Netflix, everywhere - that way they could have a much broader possible audience and no one would have to pay extra. It's beyond me why they choose a STAR TREK series as their flagship show for a streaming service. Star Trek has NEVER had a huge mainstream audience to begin with, and a lot of fans are angry with the franchise, angry with CBS, Axanar drama, yadda, yadda, yadda and WILL refuse to pay for All Access. I can't help but feel like as if CBS is making a huge error in audience size estimation here.

The business model of cable TV as it stands now is unsustainable. More and more people are cutting the cord on cable. As more people use internet TV like Roku and less use traditional cable, the cable companies will be forced to either raise their price,(creating more cable cutters) or drop expensive channels, (Like ESPN, creating more cable cutters) or totally change their business practices. 

What happens to the people who Don't want to or can't subscribe to CBS All Access when their cable company decides to go out of the TV business and concentrate exclusively on their internet providing business? 

CBS is taking a risk but the alternatives are being attached to a dying platform, or joining another platform like Hulu and lose their individuality and name or being just an over the air channel and lose most of their customer base or do what they did and create their own platform. To create a new platform they need programs. Star Trek fits the bill. It has a solid fan base. It is a show that doesn't quite fit on a regular network. It's a show that is better off on a network that can afford to care as much about quality than ratings. A really good show that they own outright can draw new fans to the new platform for years. A crappy, flash in the pan, high rating success is great for regular TV but terrible for an internet based TV.(How many people would subscribe to CBS All Access to see reruns of one of the many reality shows.)  Smaller more steady paying viewership with high quality shows is the way to go. The show doesn't half to pay for itself with one or two showings when you're going to be showing it for decades.  

CBS is taking a long view. Discovery is not by itself going to make the network. It's a start. Discovery, American Football and a couple of other new shows make the channel legitimate. I cut the cord a few months ago and my monthly bill went from $100 to $25. I have a difficult time getting CBS over the air. Even if I spend another $7.00 for all access, I'm still saving a lot of money over the old system. 

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8 hours ago, Mr.Picard said:

Yeah that makes sense. They know that Star Trek fans will fork over the money, but what about people who AREN'T Star Trek fans yet? (Also, what about the Star Trek fans who DON'T want to or can't subscribe to CBS All Access for whatever reason?

My guess is they're hoping (?) that the commitment-shy Trekkies will hear via the internet & word-of-mouth how (hopefully) good the new show is and sign up ASAP.  And since it is streaming (and not broadcast) it's not as if they're going to miss any airings.  They can catch up at their leisure.

4 hours ago, scenario said:

It all seems VERY risky to me from a business viewpoint.

I'm sure some exec in a boardroom at CBS quoted this already... :giggle:

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4 hours ago, scenario said:

I'd have put it all on Netflix, everywhere - that way they could have a much broader possible audience and no one would have to pay extra.

^
And they still might, if CBSAA fails and/or goes belly up...

4 hours ago, scenario said:

What happens to the people who Don't want to or can't subscribe to CBS All Access when their cable company decides to go out of the TV business and concentrate exclusively on their internet providing business? 

^
My understanding (and I could be wrong?) is that CBSAA will also be offered as an internet-based service too; kind of like HBO On The Go, which my wife and I have (and use) when we travel (she loves "Game of Thrones" and we both love "Westworld," so...).

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scenario   
3 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

My guess is they're hoping (?) that the commitment-shy Trekkies will hear via the internet & word-of-mouth how (hopefully) good the new show is and sign up ASAP.  And since it is streaming (and not broadcast) it's not as if they're going to miss any airings.  They can catch up at their leisure.

I'm sure some exec in a boardroom at CBS quoted this already... :giggle:

tumblr_n6cupuiWbb1rzu2xzo1_250.gif

^
And they still might, if CBSAA fails and/or goes belly up...

^
My understanding (and I could be wrong?) is that CBSAA will also be offered as an internet-based service too; kind of like HBO On The Go, which my wife and I have (and use) when we travel (she loves "Game of Thrones" and we both love "Westworld," so...).

CBSAA is available as an internet-based service right now. My point is that it's looking like all TV service other than local broadcast could be internet based in a few years. The cable company's business model is that they have a local monopoly and they get 75% of the people in their area using their service and they buy channels and set prices based on volume. About 20% of people never got cable. So they had around 80% of people signed up and they charged them through the nose. People now can get a much cheaper service. The industry as a whole is losing customers. If the percentage of people using the service get's too low, they'll get into a death cycle of raising rates/losing more customers or cutting channels/losing customers. 

It may take 20 years but CBS wants to keep their options open if cable companies start going out of the tv business. 

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12 minutes ago, scenario said:

CBSAA is available as an internet-based service right now. My point is that it's looking like all TV service other than local broadcast could be internet based in a few years.

My goof!  I meant offered like an app-type thing.  And thanks for the clarification.  To be honest, I don't really know much about CBSAA, except that I'll have it whenever DSC premieres (hehe).  

And yes, I agree.  TV and internet will just be one online-only service soon.  The merger is inevitable, IMO.  

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Our friends over at TrekMovie.com found this great quote on Star Trek: Discovery from William Shatner on Reddit.

I just love how frazzled some of you get about canon. It’s a show and they are doing a prequel to something that was made 50 years ago. Star Trek was always more about the stories and messaging than the look. If they screw that up; roast em alive and kick em in the you know what! If they don’t; then enjoy it. Kirk out!

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1 hour ago, GustavoLeao said:

Our friends over at TrekMovie.com found this great quote on Star Trek: Discovery from William Shatner on Reddit.

I just love how frazzled some of you get about canon. It’s a show and they are doing a prequel to something that was made 50 years ago. Star Trek was always more about the stories and messaging than the look. If they screw that up; roast em alive and kick em in the you know what! If they don’t; then enjoy it. Kirk out!

For once, I agree with Shatner.  :laugh:

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1 hour ago, Sehlat Vie said:

For once, I agree with Shatner.  :laugh:

 

2 hours ago, GustavoLeao said:

Our friends over at TrekMovie.com found this great quote on Star Trek: Discovery from William Shatner on Reddit.

I just love how frazzled some of you get about canon. It’s a show and they are doing a prequel to something that was made 50 years ago. Star Trek was always more about the stories and messaging than the look. If they screw that up; roast em alive and kick em in the you know what! If they don’t; then enjoy it. Kirk out!

Indeed. Can we get a skywriter for this?

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"I just love how frazzled some of you get about canon. It’s a show and they are doing a prequel to something that was made 50 years ago. Star Trek was always more about the stories and messaging than the look. If they screw that up; roast em alive and kick em in the you know what! If they don’t; then enjoy it. Kirk out!"

^

Says the guy who brags that he has never watched an episode of any Trek other than his own show. Stay classy, Shatner. :P

Nah, seriously... not to spoil the general agreement here, he HAS a point, absolutely, but SOMEHOW I don't think he's the one who should be speaking up TOO loudly here, given how, you know, he and the other TOS actors used to bash the mere idea of TNG when it was announced. It's not that he behaved any differently back then than some fans do now.

 

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kenman   
6 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

"I just love how frazzled some of you get about canon. It’s a show and they are doing a prequel to something that was made 50 years ago. Star Trek was always more about the stories and messaging than the look. If they screw that up; roast em alive and kick em in the you know what! If they don’t; then enjoy it. Kirk out!"

^

Says the guy who brags that he has never watched an episode of any Trek other than his own show. Stay classy, Shatner. :P

Nah, seriously... not to spoil the general agreement here, he HAS a point, absolutely, but SOMEHOW I don't think he's the one who should be speaking up TOO loudly here, given how, you know, he and the other TOS actors used to bash the mere idea of TNG when it was announced. It's not that he behaved any differently back then than some fans do now.

 

It was a different time for Trek, they were the show and they felt threatened that they were being "replaced." But they weren't really, and time has moved on and the impact of the original isn't terribly diminished, so he can easily have moved on from that position he held 30 years ago. And he doesn't really have to watch any show, and we all know its a lie, he probably watched TNG a bit just to fret and worry about how it affected him. 

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33 minutes ago, kenman said:

It was a different time for Trek, they were the show and they felt threatened that they were being "replaced." But they weren't really, and time has moved on and the impact of the original isn't terribly diminished, so he can easily have moved on from that position he held 30 years ago. And he doesn't really have to watch any show, and we all know its a lie, he probably watched TNG a bit just to fret and worry about how it affected him. 

Still doesn't make it okay for them to actively give interviews in which they whine about how terrible TNG is going to be. I guess they resolved the issue in some way since Kelley appeared in TNG's pilot episode but it still wasn't necessary for them to cry about things in public. There's a reason why this stuff is often done behind closed doors these days. Back then their whining was like throwing gasoline into the fires the purists were already lighting. 

It's fine if Shatner doesn't want to watch any other Trek than the one he likes best - neither do I most of the time, I'm right with him on that one - but for him to actively brag about it in a "my show is so superior to the others (because I'm in it), I don't need to watch that other stuff, meh" undertone just... well it doesn't really make me want to listen to ANY of his opinions when it comes to Star Trek, sorry. And yeah, he probably HAS watched some of the other shows. I do agree that it's probably just one of his "jokes" but, as it usually is with his "jokes", I find myself unable to laugh.

I do agree with the essence of what he says BUT I at the same time I also think slamming those fans who are legitimately concerned about how Discovery is going to fit into established canon is not a wise course of action either. He's not helping. The fighting is already bad enough.

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kenman   
45 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

Still doesn't make it okay for them to actively give interviews in which they whine about how terrible TNG is going to be. I guess they resolved the issue in some way since Kelley appeared in TNG's pilot episode but it still wasn't necessary for them to cry about things in public. There's a reason why this stuff is often done behind closed doors these days. Back then their whining was like throwing gasoline into the fires the purists were already lighting. 

It's fine if Shatner doesn't want to watch any other Trek than the one he likes best - neither do I most of the time, I'm right with him on that one - but for him to actively brag about it in a "my show is so superior to the others (because I'm in it), I don't need to watch that other stuff, meh" undertone just... well it doesn't really make me want to listen to ANY of his opinions when it comes to Star Trek, sorry. And yeah, he probably HAS watched some of the other shows. I do agree that it's probably just one of his "jokes" but, as it usually is with his "jokes", I find myself unable to laugh.

I do agree with the essence of what he says BUT I at the same time I also think slamming those fans who are legitimately concerned about how Discovery is going to fit into established canon is not a wise course of action either. He's not helping. The fighting is already bad enough.

I know TNG is your favorite, but it turned out alright despite that cast's doubts....so why hold the grudge?  And if Shatner is going to be supportive of the new show in some way, I say thats a good thing.  I don't see how it is worse one way or the other, as if they internet has ever been swayed from hating on everything. 

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9 minutes ago, kenman said:

I know TNG is your favorite, but it turned out alright despite that cast's doubts....so why hold the grudge?  And if Shatner is going to be supportive of the new show in some way, I say thats a good thing.  I don't see how it is worse one way or the other, as if they internet has ever been swayed from hating on everything. 

Everyone had doubts about TNG, including its own lead actor, I don't question that, I find it understandable, given the circumstances. I just don't like how the original crew basically fueled hate back then before the show was even MADE, that's all. 

If I were really evil now I'd say "Shatner is only supportive because he hopes he'll be on the show" but then that would be REAAAAALLY EVIL. lol (I'm kidding. I think.) Nah. It's nice that he voices support, but I'm just not convinced that it will do any good either way. Like you said, haters gonna hate nonetheless, but he's fueling things. (Again.) Sometimes it's just better to NOT get involved in a fandom war in full force. But then, TACTFUL is not a term I'd associate with Shatner so I guess it's in-character what he's doing, lol.

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kenman   
2 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

Everyone had doubts about TNG, including its own lead actor, I don't question that, I find it understandable, given the circumstances. I just don't like how the original crew basically fueled hate back then before the show was even MADE, that's all. 

If I were really evil now I'd say "Shatner is only supportive because he hopes he'll be on the show" but then that would be REAAAAALLY EVIL. lol (I'm kidding. I think.) Nah. It's nice that he voices support, but I'm just not convinced that it will do any good either way. Like you said, haters gonna hate nonetheless, but he's fueling things. (Again.) Sometimes it's just better to NOT get involved in a fandom war in full force. But then, TACTFUL is not a term I'd associate with Shatner so I guess it's in-character what he's doing, lol.

Sorry, bnut I'd rather someone fuel positivity than negativity.  Sorry he didn't fuel the right one in the past, but if he is going to fuel positivity now, I think that's good. 

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2 hours ago, Mr.Picard said:

If I were really evil now I'd say "Shatner is only supportive because he hopes he'll be on the show" but then that would be REAAAAALLY EVIL. lol (I'm kidding. I think.) 

Go ahead... be evil. :P

tenor.gif

And you were actually voicing aloud what I was thinking initially, and yes, people were very harsh on TNG when it debuted; including all of the TOS cast (!).  So yeah, I’d say a bit of irony is due...;)

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Locutus   
3 hours ago, kenman said:

Sorry, bnut I'd rather someone fuel positivity than negativity.  Sorry he didn't fuel the right one in the past, but if he is going to fuel positivity now, I think that's good. 

Positive or negative, the man has a right to weigh in.  He's been involved with the franchise for so long, it is inevitable that people will seek out his opinion.  While I'm relieved he's sending a positive message, I'm fine if he expresses disappointment if the show ultimately doesn't stand up when compared with his idea of good Star Trek storytelling.  (I will certainly keep in mind that he wrote Star Trek V if he does.)  

At least Shatner is correct that it is more about stories and themes than the look of the uniforms, the ships, or the aliens.

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If the stories suck, then I'm gonna really weigh in.

TOS was always made on a shoestring. The riches that were given to it - and in turn, to us - were the inventiveness and imagination of the stories.

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