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John32070

How would you fix Troi?

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8 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

 

Counselor Durango happens before she gets the uniform though. ;)

Ah, you're right... I forgot the order of broadcast/production.     * lowers head in shame... * :P

9 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

But I agree. Just give her a uniform from the start (Marina Sirtis hated the "cheerleader outfit" from the pilot episode but it was at least a uniform) and hire decent writers who know how to write female characters and things should have a solid basis, at least. The plot problems with the whole "empath on the bridge" idea would probably still have been there but we at least wouldn't have gotten embarrassing moments like the one in "Disaster" when Lieutenant Commander Troi, who sits on the bridge every day, has to be lectured on the simplest ship's proceedings by an ensign and a transporter chief because "we can't give Troi a brain, now can we, here, catsuit lady, just look good over there, will you".

It would've been much more interesting if Troi surprised the rest of the bridge crew in "Disaster" by immediately being up-to-speed on command procedures; they expected her to be a babe-in-the-woods and she turns out to be well versed because, well, she's a lieutenant commander, right?   That's a pretty high rank to achieve without knowing squat from Shinola. 

Then the conflict between her and Ro could've been more about a contest of wills between two equally valid perspectives rather than the Bambi-esque novice versus the hardened Bajoran ensign. 

But nope... they had to make Troi a nightgown-wearing dummy instead.   Such a disservice. 

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10 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Ah, you're right... I forgot the order of broadcast/production.     * lowers head in shame... * :P

It would've been much more interesting if Troi surprised the rest of the bridge crew in "Disaster" by immediately being up-to-speed on command procedures; they expected her to be a babe-in-the-woods and she turns out to be well versed because, well, she's a lieutenant commander, right?   That's a pretty high rank to achieve without knowing squat from Shinola. 

Then the conflict between her and Ro could've been more about a contest of wills between two equally valid perspectives rather than the Bambi-esque novice versus the hardened Bajoran ensign. 

But nope... they had to make Troi a nightgown-wearing dummy instead.   Such a disservice. 

I'd have written her as competent from the start, then we wouldn't have had this whole issue. I get what the writers were trying to do, they were putting the characters in "unusual situations", but here the "unusual situation" for the woman is "being faced with having to be intelligent and knowledgable and command-ish and not just be pretty and sit around on the bridge like she usually does". It's deeply, deeply sexist. I sometimes really wonder how Marina Sirtis endured this kind of thing. She has my utter respect and absolute admiration for muddling through these kinds of situations.

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3 hours ago, Mr.Picard said:

 

Counselor Durango happens before she gets the uniform though. ;)

But I agree. Just give her a uniform from the start (Marina Sirtis hated the "cheerleader outfit" from the pilot episode but it was at least a uniform) and hire decent writers who know how to write female characters and things should have a solid basis, at least. The plot problems with the whole "empath on the bridge" idea would probably still have been there but we at least wouldn't have gotten embarrassing moments like the one in "Disaster" when Lieutenant Commander Troi, who sits on the bridge every day, has to be lectured on the simplest ship's proceedings by an ensign and a transporter chief because "we can't give Troi a brain, now can we, here, catsuit lady, just look good over there, will you".

I don't have a problem with her not knowing the difference between a quantum filament and a cosmic string, as not only is that a bit esoteric in the physics department, it really isn't relevant to the situation.

What makes my skin crawl in aggravation is that she has no clue that the magnetic fields the core produces to keep the matter and antimatter from mixing uncontrollably are literally the only thing that keep the ship from going supernova from one millisecond to the next. That's 24th century elementary school basic.

Never mind that she's actually in the room in "Contagion" where LaForge and Data explained that that's exactly what happened to the Yamato.

But, hey, they need an idiot as a vehicle to explain the situation to the audience.

They could simply have her repeat what she thought she knew and Ro and O'Brien nod, but they need to explain it to the ditzy little counselor to show her out of her element.

Where, if you take the character and her nature seriously, you don't display her indecision over what to do by showing that every little thing has to be mansplained to her. Her problem comes with her empathy. She knows what will happen from the beginning, but, not only does she feel for all those people, she FEELS them and knows that she's leaving them to die and isn't sure she can. That while she plays that side and contrasts it against the more rational Ro and O'Brien, with him a little conflicted, too because Keiko.

But she's just such an idiot and unqualified for what's asked of her in this episode that in no rational organization would she ever be in a position to command. The final decision would have gone to even the court-martialed and disgraced Bajoran ensign before Troi.

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4 hours ago, Mr.Picard said:

I'd have written her as competent from the start, then we wouldn't have had this whole issue. I get what the writers were trying to do, they were putting the characters in "unusual situations", but here the "unusual situation" for the woman is "being faced with having to be intelligent and knowledgable and command-ish and not just be pretty and sit around on the bridge like she usually does". It's deeply, deeply sexist. I sometimes really wonder how Marina Sirtis endured this kind of thing. She has my utter respect and absolute admiration for muddling through these kinds of situations.

TOS' "Immunity Syndrome" established that Dr. McCoy, though a CMO, could still pilot a shuttlecraft if needed (probably not well, but enough to get from point A-B).  ST09 also showed him taking the helm during the Kobayashi Maru simulation.  He even helped Spock perform "surgery on a torpedo" (god knows why) in STVI.   Contrary to his famous "I'm a doctor, not a ---" line, he can, in a pinch, wear many hats.

I know Troi is a ship's counselor, but she is on the command bridge much of the time; you'd think she'd know something about the ship's functions and maybe some basic troubleshooting.   

And yes, I'm a big fan of Sirtis' as well; and like her, I think the character's potential was just being realized in those final couple of seasons.   Sirtis is also a delightful lady in person too; I've met her once and seen her onstage and she often leaves the crowd in stitches.   

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6 hours ago, BolianAdmiral said:

IMO, Captain Jellico fixed her.

The uniform was certainly a major step in the right direction; wish it'd happened in S1 instead of S7 however.  Sirtis deserved better.

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4 hours ago, BolianAdmiral said:

^

Yeah. Come to think of it, Jellico pretty much fixed the whole crew, IMO.

I dunno. 

I like that he brought some conflict to the show for a little while, but I'd get really sick of a ST series with such an angry, mean captain.  We have ENT S3 for that (ba-dum-tsss! Hehe).

Besides, there is NO substitute for Jean-Luc Picard. 

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38 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

Besides, there is NO substitute for Jean-Luc Picard

That I can buy.

And, when it comes to Jellico? Yes, he's kind of a hard guy here, but he has some reason for it in this particular instance? How much of it is him as naturally a jerk, and how much is it that he fully expects to be in the middle of a war if not dead in a matter of days?

The crew of the D does come off as a bit whiny in this episode. 

 

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15 minutes ago, prometheus59650 said:

That I can buy.

And, when it comes to Jellico? Yes, he's kind of a hard guy here, but he has some reason for it in this particular instance? How much of it is him as naturally a jerk, and how much is it that he fully expects to be in the middle of a war if not dead in a matter of days?

The crew of the D does come off as a bit whiny in this episode. 

The episode is also a good reminder of what happens when people become used to a particular style; when I was a soulless retailer (many years ago) there were times when I was the Picard and then there were times when I would transfer to a new location and had to be the Jellico.   I would love to see an episode set aboard the USS Cairo with Jellico’s crew.

I’m guessing they’d probably grown so used to his style that they loved him in their own way as well.   If Picard came into their situation and assumed command?  He might face similar resistance, I’d imagine.   Another great example of this crew dynamic ‘shakeup’ was from the 2003-9 Battlestar Galactica series, with the Pegasus arc.   We see Adama’s crew broken up in a similar fashion, and the dogmatic Admiral Cain had her devoted crew of ‘razors’ who adored her.   I’m guessing that Jellico probably had a crew of ‘razors’ who loved him every bit as much as Picard’s crew loved him.

Different styles of leadership breed different brands of loyalty.

But regarding Troi?  Yes, I agree that the Jellico shakeup was a good turning point for her character (and the actress).  Troi seemed ‘looser’ after that, and more of Marina Sirtis’ natural humor seeped in as well (that’s ONLY a good thing, as far as I’m concerned; I adore Sirtis). 

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1 hour ago, Sehlat Vie said:

If Picard came into their situation and assumed command?  He might face similar resistance, I’d imagine.

I'm not so sure. This is a captain, in "All Good Things..." that even after publicly losing track of which of his officers is at what post AFTER having what appear to be auditory hallucinations in the shuttle bay convinces his crew to blow off their mission to Farpoint and fly into a temporal anomaly into certain death.

The man just has THAT much mojo, I suppose. 

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That's what makes a good captain - being able to adjust to a new situation AND have your new crew with you. Jellico doesn't adjust - he comes crashing through the door and tries to force his style onto the TNG officers. I'd have ended up loathing him in no time as well - if I had been the bartender there I'd have made sure he gets a drink he won't forget easily, in a lot of painful ways. It's similar to when Kurn takes the first officer position - he also makes no effort whatsoever to realize that his style just might have to change slightly. With him it's more a cultural thing, granted, but still. The TNG crew is the TNG crew, and I'm pretty sure people would have been WTF if they had readily embraced Jellico's "style" without problems/arguments. It just doesn't really fit.

Jean-Luc could adjust to any kind of crew - he can be just as much "razor" as he can be a "grumpy father figure". He could also easily command a Klingon vessel, for example. People tend to underestimate him at first because he looks like such a harmless cinnamon roll but they usually come to regret that quickly. :angel_not: 

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2 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

I'd have ended up loathing him in no time as well - if I had been the bartender there I'd have made sure he gets a drink he won't forget easily, in a lot of painful ways.

Oh, agreed!  I was practically standing up and applauding when I first saw CoC2 and Riker is handing Jellico’s ass to him on a plate in Riker’s quarters.   That was downright cathartic. :thumbup:

3 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

It's similar to when Kurn takes the first officer position - he also makes no effort whatsoever to realize that his style just might have to change slightly. With him it's more a cultural thing, granted, but still.

^
Good point.  Riker made some attempt to act more “Klingon” when he came aboard the Pagh in “A Matter of Honor” but Kurn was just all Klingon attitude.  

5 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

Jean-Luc could adjust to any kind of crew - he can be just as much "razor" as he can be a "grumpy father figure". He could also easily command a Klingon vessel, for example. People tend to underestimate him at first because he looks like such a harmless cinnamon roll but they usually come to regret that quickly. :angel_not: 

Picard could be a razor when he had to be; but it wasn’t his default mode the way it was with Jellico.  

I had a boss like Jellico once; it didn’t end well, let’s just put it that way...:laugh:

I would MUCH rather serve under Picard’s command; any day of the week...

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Some folks might argue that Grumpy Picard from season 1 is his own "razor". I'm too biased, all I see is him being incredibly cute, nerdy and grumpy, but I have spoken to fans who were really put off by his attitude at first. (The show itself also mentions this in Farpoint, the Crusher boy being like "Captain Picard is a pain, right?" and all.) Of course there's still a difference between being grumpy and being like Jellico, though - but Jean-Luc does come with a certain reputation as well. He simply adjusts better and has the ability to make people follow his lead, no matter what. (Sometimes even TOO much, the TNG folks follow him so much that they are literally useless at trying to relieve him of his command even when it's glaringly obvious they should do so when he isn't himself for various reasons.)

And I prefer Jean-Luc over Jellico as well but I guess THAT goes without saying. :laugh: 

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4 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

Some folks might argue that Grumpy Picard from season 1 is his own "razor".

:laugh:

Good point.

5 minutes ago, Mr.Picard said:

And I prefer Jean-Luc over Jellico as well but I guess THAT goes without saying. :laugh: 

Not as if there was any doubt. :P

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