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kc1966

What now for Star Wars

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kc1966   

In respect to Ms. Fisher I started a separate thread to ask the following - With the death of Carrie Fisher and the killing of the Han Solo character what direction will Star Wars take?  I know they were eventually going to transition to the younger actors but the rumors were that Princess Leia was going to play a key role in SWVIII.  Ironically, unlike with the Chekov character (which I was in a minority opinion on), I have a problem with them recasting Leia because of Ms. Fisher's playing it in SWVII.  IF the rumors were true does this mean a rewrite?  Or have they even started shooting?

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In respect to Ms. Fisher I started a separate thread to ask the following - With the death of Carrie Fisher and the killing of the Han Solo character what direction will Star Wars take?  I know they were eventually going to transition to the younger actors but the rumors were that Princess Leia was going to play a key role in SWVIII.  Ironically, unlike with the Chekov character (which I was in a minority opinion on), I have a problem with them recasting Leia because of Ms. Fisher's playing it in SWVII.  IF the rumors were true does this mean a rewrite?  Or have they even started shooting?

8 is already in post, her work is done.

9 depends on how pivotal her role was. If it were small, but important, I'd bee fine with CGI, and I expect she might have been, too.

Edited by prometheus59650

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Star wars VIII come out in December of 2017, it sad the passing of Carrie fisher   a Very sad day for SW fans , a question  if Rouge one considered  a star wars movie than why Don't it have a number behind of the title like the other star wars movies do. 

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R2D2 and see threepio was in the movie cameo along with some secondary actors from a new hope , the empire strikes back and return of the Jedi, but no, Hans solo, chewbacca or princess Leia, Luke Skywaker was in the film . oh well 

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R2D2 and see threepio was in the movie cameo along with some secondary actors from a new hope , the empire strikes back and return of the Jedi, but no, Hans solo, chewbacca or princess Leia, Luke Skywaker was in the film . oh well 

If we're talking about Rogue One, Leia was indeed in it.

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I never got the impression that Harrison Ford viewed Star Wars as anything else but a job.  Great actor, made a great character, but I don't know if he truly appreciated it as much as some of the others--especially since he had so much success outside of that franchise.

But Fisher?  I think she really enjoyed Leia.  From what I've been reading the last few days, she was a very nice, down to earth person.

So with that in mind, she might view the franchise similarly in a way that I would if I were a major part of it.  With the technology as it is today, I would certainly think about the idea of using my likeness after I die.

I know I would be in favor of it.  I don't think of it as morbid, but rather a way of giving back to a franchise that would have given me such a great life.  Star Wars didn't just make her rich and famous--it afforded her other opportunities and roles. She really hit the jackpot.

If I were in her position, I would recognize the fandom and how much love they would have for my character, and I would not want my character's fate to be determined by my untimely death.  So if I were her, I would want Leia in Episode IX, and I would want her to have as big a role as the producers/writers can make it, and I would want her alive and well at the end of the movie, using the same tech they used in Rogue One.

Of course, I would want my estate paid appropriately, but I would view it as a means of giving back and hopefully making a statement that my death does not mean the end for a beloved character. 

I think it would be a nice gesture.  I know some will feel it's morbid, but I wouldn't.  I would think it's really cool.

 

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If her daughter and sisters are fine with it, then fine. They are in a better position to know what she would have wanted better than i, but I got the sense, that, like Ford signing on for TFA, she wanted to see Leia's arc completed.

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Judging by the Leia in Rogue One, I don't think the technology is quite there yet.  Yes, Tarkin looked amazing in that movie but his appearances were a bit more shadowy (and forgiving) than Leia, who was in the all-white interior of the Tantive IV.

It was also fortunate that Leia only had a one-word line in R1.   Her appearance in a hypothetical E9 would be much more extensive.  I don't think the technology is where it needs to be, and I think it's a bit morbid as well.

Our own Robin Bland put it best in the Rogue One thread when he said the Tarkin scenes in R1 were so amazing to behold that they kind of popped him out of the movie a bit; I have to admit the same reaction as well.   I oohed and ah-ed at the technology, but for the life of me I don't think I can remember a single line of Tarkin's dialogue.   And Peter Cushing has been dead for 22 years.  I imagine my reaction to a synthespian Fisher, especially so soon after her tragic passing (only YESTERDAY, for gods' sake) would just take me out of the movie entirely.

This is one of those times, much like Linda Hamilton's Sarah Connor in T3 (when Hamilton refused to return), that killing off the character offscreen is the only tasteful option here. And since JJ Abrams, who is also producing Star Trek, refused any and all talk of bringing back Chekov after Anton Yelchin's death?  I would bet good money that he will (somehow) have the General Leia Organa killed offscreen, or through some genius editing skills, killed onscreen using briefs snippets of unused footage from E8 combined with a CGI augmented body double (since E8 has already wrapped its principal photography).   But I sincerely doubt that a CGI synthespian will be the case in regard to Leia having a substantial role in E9.

I suspect a major rewrite is going to happen.

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Sim   

Has Episode 9 already been written in its entirety? Or are they still in the process of writing it, so they could easily change it without a lot of hassle?

I'd rather not see a large CGI role. IMO, it's really more a gimmick than a replacement for a real actor, at least that was what it was in R1. For once, the technology is indeed not quite there yet (at very least when you know it, you can easily see it's CGI), and yes, I find it a bit morbid, too. A small CGI cameo/minor role might pass as a respectful nod, but a complete pivotal role in CGI would be disrespectful towards the actress, IMO.

However, I'd like to have some kind of goodbye for Leia in Episode 9, and something that wraps up loose ends after Ep. 8 (if Ep.8 indeed asks for some kind of closure for Leia). Could either be via unused footage from Ep. 7 and 8 combined with a good off-screen explanation and/or moderate CGI use.

Or if the ending of Ep. 8 allows it, just off-screen à la Nimoy's goodbye in "Beyond".

They don't have to kill the character; I guess some kind of retirement would work just as well, especially after Han's death. But then, I have no idea about her role in Ep.8 yet, so I don't know what would work best.

Edited by Sim

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I suspect a major rewrite is going to happen.

Most likely. The only question is how much of one. I hope her arc is largely closed in 8 and any write-out can sort of be relegated to "she left to do what she already said she was going to. Fill in the blanks."

Edited by prometheus59650

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Has Episode 9 already been written in its entirety? Or are they still in the process of writing it, so they could easily change it without a lot of hassle?

I'd rather not see a large CGI role. IMO, it's really more a gimmick than a replacement for a real actor, at least that was what it was in R1. For once, the technology is indeed not quite there yet (at very least when you know it, you can easily see it's CGI), and yes, I find it a bit morbid, too. A small CGI cameo/minor role might pass as a respectful nod, but a complete pivotal role in CGI would be disrespectful towards the actress, IMO.

However, I'd like to have some kind of goodbye for Leia in Episode 9, and something that wraps up loose ends after Ep. 8 (if Ep.8 indeed asks for some kind of closure for Leia). Could either be via unused footage from Ep. 7 and 8 combined with a good off-screen explanation and/or moderate CGI use.

Or if the ending of Ep. 8 allows it, just off-screen à la Nimoy's goodbye in "Beyond".

They don't have to kill the character; I guess some kind of retirement would work just as well, especially after Han's death. But then, I have no idea about her role in Ep.8 yet, so I don't what would work best.

I thought Spock Prime in ST Beyond was a decent template for killing off a character whose actor has passed away in real life.

Even though he only saw a couple of still photos of Nimoy in the actual movie (his holo-death certificate and the cast photo), his presence weighs on the film in the form of his current avatar Zach Quinto.  KT Spock channels the audience's grief not only for the character, but the actor as well.  And it still very much felt 'in story.'

The character of Leia could be killed off either offscreen (which would have less impact, granted) or onscreen via judicious editing and CGI doubling.   But I wouldn't expect that JJ Abrams (producer of ST and SW) would be in favor of a morbid wax-figure Leia speaking for Carrie Fisher.

Carrie Fisher was one of a kind; her voice (and I don't mean tonalities) was unique.   One word: irreplaceable

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Except I, and I'll wager most people, Sim, don't see Leia retiring somewhere, no matter the reason. The Republic is reborn and the Empire is dead, or she's dead.

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Sim   

 

One word: irreplaceable

Exactly my feeling.

Which is why I think a larger CGI role would be disrespectful. However, I'd like to see a compromise between respect for the actress, and ending whatever story began for her character in Ep. 8.

If there are no major loose ends about Leia's character in Ep.8, I'd say then a decent off-screen farewell à la Nimoy would be perfect.

If there are? I'd like to see some kind of closure, which wouldn't be quite as abrupt than writing the character out of the script entirely, even when they reduce this ending to a minimum.

 

( Or they recast Leia with Zachary Quinto... uhm... no, better not. :P )

Except I, and I'll wager most people, Sim, don't see Leia retiring somewhere, no matter the reason. The Republic is reborn and the Empire is dead, or she's dead.

That's a good point.

In the end, all I'd like to see is a satisfying explanation for her being gone, and as long as it works, I don't really care what exactly they do with the character.

As you said, it would be perfect if by the end of Ep. 8, Leia was going somewhere to do something -- then just let her do it off-screen.

Edited by Sim

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One word: irreplaceable

Exactly my feeling.

Which is why I think a larger CGI role would be disrespectful. However, I'd like to see a compromise between respect for the actress, and ending whatever story began for her character in Ep. 8.

If there are no major loose ends about Leia's character in Ep.8, I'd say then a decent off-screen farewell à la Nimoy would be perfect.

If there are? I'd like to see some kind of closure, which wouldn't be quite as abrupt than writing the character out of the script entirely, even when they reduce this ending to a minimum.

 

( Or they recast Leia with Zachary Quinto... uhm... no, better not. :P )

Except I, and I'll wager most people, Sim, don't see Leia retiring somewhere, no matter the reason. The Republic is reborn and the Empire is dead, or she's dead.

That's a good point.

In the end, all I'd like to see is a satisfying explanation for her being gone, and as long as it works, I don't really care what exactly they do with the character.

As you said, it would be perfect if by the end of Ep. 8, Leia was going somewhere to do something -- then just let her do it off-screen.

Indeed. If all she was to do in 9 is some family get together in the denouement to help close it out, that's pretty easily reconciled and worked around. 

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I think if her family was against it, that would suck, since it makes all the sense in the world to have her play a big role in Episode IX, and retire the character with class, like they did with Paul Walker.

For all we know, we won't ever see an Episode X.  Or if we do, it could take place in a future time beyond Leia's lifespan.  Or involve a different set of characters.  I think it would suck to simply kill Leia off.  I don't think that's a tribute.  I don't think it's tasteful.  I do think that's what they will do because it's lazy and easy.  The technology is more than good enough, and I think it's just better for the storyline if Leia lives. 

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One word: irreplaceable

Exactly my feeling.

Which is why I think a larger CGI role would be disrespectful. However, I'd like to see a compromise between respect for the actress, and ending whatever story began for her character in Ep. 8.

If there are no major loose ends about Leia's character in Ep.8, I'd say then a decent off-screen farewell à la Nimoy would be perfect.

If there are? I'd like to see some kind of closure, which wouldn't be quite as abrupt than writing the character out of the script entirely, even when they reduce this ending to a minimum.

 

( Or they recast Leia with Zachary Quinto... uhm... no, better not. :P )

Except I, and I'll wager most people, Sim, don't see Leia retiring somewhere, no matter the reason. The Republic is reborn and the Empire is dead, or she's dead.

That's a good point.

In the end, all I'd like to see is a satisfying explanation for her being gone, and as long as it works, I don't really care what exactly they do with the character.

As you said, it would be perfect if by the end of Ep. 8, Leia was going somewhere to do something -- then just let her do it off-screen.

Indeed. If all she was to do in 9 is some family get together in the denouement to help close it out, that's pretty easily reconciled and worked around. 

^
This.

And not this.

v

I think if her family was against it, that would suck, since it makes all the sense in the world to have her play a big role in Episode IX, and retire the character with class, like they did with Paul Walker.

For all we know, we won't ever see an Episode X.  Or if we do, it could take place in a future time beyond Leia's lifespan.  Or involve a different set of characters.  I think it would suck to simply kill Leia off.  I don't think that's a tribute.  I don't think it's tasteful.  I do think that's what they will do because it's lazy and easy.  The technology is more than good enough, and I think it's just better for the storyline if Leia lives. 

^

This isn't some car chase movie.   This is arguably the most beloved movie franchise in the world.   And no, after seeing Rogue One, I know that synthespian technology will not replace Fisher; certainly not as she was right before her passing, with her more textured face and modulated voice.   And above all else, it's simply in bad taste.   Even resurrecting Peter Cushing, who's been dead for decades, felt a tad eerie for me.   His scenes certainly distracted me from the plot and story, at the very least.   An extended role by the late Fisher in E9 would be that reaction to the 10th power.

That's the bottom line here, really... it's just bad taste, and WAAAAY too soon (if E9 stays on track for a 2019 release).

And it's not 'lazy' killing off a character who's actor has passed away... it's RESPECTFUL.

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This isn't some car chase movie.   This is arguably the most beloved movie franchise in the world.   And no, after seeing Rogue One, I know that synthespian technology will not replace Fisher; certainly not as she was right before her passing, with her more textured face and modulated voice.   And above all else, it's simply in bad taste.   Even resurrecting Peter Cushing, who's been dead for decades, felt a tad eerie for me.   His scenes certainly distracted me from the plot and story, at the very least.   An extended role by the late Fisher in E9 would be that reaction to the 10th power.

That's the bottom line here, really... it's just bad taste, and WAAAAY too soon (if E9 stays on track for a 2019 release).

And it's not 'lazy' killing off a character who's actor has passed away... it's RESPECTFUL.

Pretty much this. I could live with Cushing because it was a generation ago since the man passed. Fisher is too raw, and it's still going to be raw in 2019.

As I've said further upthread, IF Leia was supposed to be in some pivotal scene in 9 that would require gutting most of the screenplay to work around and would close out her character arc in the process I could live with it, in part, because I think she'd like to see Leia closed out that way; doing something important that gives the Republic its final victory.

But, that's very different than having CGI zombie Leia threaded throughout the film just because you can. Honestly, I think it's a moot discussion because I don't see a man like Abrams doing that or allowing it.

No, it's not lazy. It's accepting that some actors in some roles can't be replaced, especially in midstream and acknowledging that.

That's what bothers me most about this synthespian nonsense. If it's used sparingly and the overall context works (As with Tarkin) I'm okay with it, even if weirded out a little sometimes.

But I know where they want to go with it and I'll be damned if I'm going to go see, "It's a Wonderful Life Again" with Jimmy Stewart in 2025.

Just. No.

Edited by prometheus59650

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Sim   

As for synthespian ... how did they do it with the voices in R1, by the way (I only watched the German dubbed version so far)? Have they found a way to remodulate the voice of another actor sufficiently to sound like Peter Cushing? Did 2016 Carry Fisher dub her CGI role?

While I'm similarly sceptical about replacing entire actors in movies with CGI (unless perhaps it's a strictly CGI movie, like there are animation movies), I'd be curious about technical means to make other people sound like deceased voice actors:

For example, I am very fond of the German dubbing of TOS. But when the formerly cut scenes were reinserted into the episodes with the DVD release in 2004, the "original" voice actors had died already, so new voice actors had to do the dubbing... which results in the voices changing from one scene to the next within the same episode.

You have a similar problem with German dubbings of director cuts occasionally: New scenes are redubbed with new voice actors, or the same voice actors decades older. IMO it would be nice if at least these missing scenes could be altered to match the primary dubbing.

Pretty much this. I could live with Cushing because it was a generation ago since the man passed. Fisher is too raw, and it's still going to be raw in 2019.

^ This. And then, Tarkin was not a central role in the OT to begin with. Even in ANH, he was just a supporting character, albeit a memorable one.

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As for synthespian ... how did they do it with the voices in R1, by the way (I only watched the German dubbed version so far)? Have they found a way to remodulate the voice of another actor sufficiently to sound like Peter Cushing? Did 2016 Carry Fisher dub her CGI role?

I think Tarkin was an impersonator, albeit a decent one. Leia only says the one word, so I'm pretty sure they just lifted it from elsewhere in the trilogy. On the technical end of this, I've read where, if an actor has a large enough catalog they can draw from, they are developing algorithms to analyze speech patterns and inflection in the hopes of being able to give a synthespian a full range of voice and emotion for any role. I have no doubt they'll figure it out eventually.

Though for me this is a case of, "Just because we can do a thing..."  

For example, I am very fond of the German dubbing of TOS. But when the formerly cut scenes were reinserted into the episodes with the DVD release in 2004, the "original" voice actors had died already, so new voice actors had to do the dubbing... which results in the voices changing from one scene to the next within the same episode.

That must be.... off-putting, I agree. 

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scenario   

I always think of roles as main roles, supporting roles and bit roles. Peter Cushings role was really a bit role. In TOS, Kirk, Spock and McCoy are lead roles, Scotty, Uhura, Sulu, and Chekov are supporting roles and the crew members you see in more than one episode are bit roles. I don't have much problem with writing supporting actors out or replacing bit actors or using cgi for bit parts but I don't like the idea of using CGI to replace main roles for more than a short scene. 

In the original Star Wars, I put Han, Luke and Leia as the main roles. I haven't seen any of the newer movies but from what I've read Leia is one of the leads or at least a very influential supporting role. The new movies aren't a remake, they're a continuation of the story. They are like Star Trek, the Motion Picture, or Search For Spock. I don't like the idea at all of casting a new actor for the part of Leia until they make a true remake of the original with an all new cast. But as one of the leaders of the resistance, they can't really just say she's not around when all the action happens. I really think they need to either kill off the character or have the character captured by the bad guys. That way, they could have an appearance by Leia by voice only, a message smuggled out. If they decide to kill off the character it should be heroic and I wouldn't mind using CGI to make it more realistic. Like a quick flashback to a burning ship where Leia is badly hurt but still keeps giving orders and dies saving the rest of the crew. 

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maneth   

Kill Leia off screen and have her come and say goodbye as a force ghost. That would probably allow for a bit of distortion in her voice and a much more vague appearance. I haven't seen Rogue One yet so I can't judge the synthespian appearances.

I would have a great deal of trouble seeing Leia recast with another actor.

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scenario   

Star Wars is mythology more than science fiction. Leia should die to expand the myth. She should die like Obi Wan died, with a light saber in hand fighting till the end. Have it shown in a flashback from the viewpoint of an eyewitness who was a long way away. Just see her fighting and being struck down by the head bad man, just like Obi Wan. Then show her as a ghost, just like Obi Wan. 

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kc1966   

For all we know, we won't ever see an Episode X.  

If memory serves, in an interview during the original Star Wars Trilogy of A New Hope, The Empire Strikes Back, and Return of the Jedi, Mr. Lucas stated he had/mapped out three trilogies and started with A New Hope because he felt it was the best episode that could serve as a stand alone movie even though it was the first part of the second trilogy.  He stated he hoped to then go back and do the real first trilogy (the infamous prequels) and then finish up with the last trilogy that dealt with what happened with the Republic after the rebellion was won.  I have no idea if they are still following his plan/ideas but if that is the case that would mean there would not be an Episode X.  However, it doesn't mean there won't be other Star Wars movies as Disney has already begun fleshing out the SW universe.

Edited by kc1966

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