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StillKirok

The Borg-Picard's fault?

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And if you understood my post correctly, that's what I meant; Picard's inference informs the audience.   That's the connection.  Q was acting for humanity's benefit, however inadvertently seeming.  He even warned Picard that "you're not prepared for what awaits you."   This WAS his way of saving Picard and his crew later on; by giving them a taste of their future.

 

Picard was speculating.  The same conversation said that Q sped up the meeting of the Borg and that because of that, they are coming. 

As for Kirk, again, nothing wrong with what he did.  Kirk hardly was the type to hand over the ship's info to others, but clearly what Kirk allowed Khan to read was NOT classified.  Nothing indicated Khan hacked into classified data or that Kirk did something wrong there.  Therefore, there is no policy that Kirk violated.

The dangers of total transparency... take that, Julian Assange.

 

That's a fair argument.  Starfleet isn't the Pentagon.

 

 

 

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As for Kirk, again, nothing wrong with what he did.  Kirk hardly was the type to hand over the ship's info to others, but clearly what Kirk allowed Khan to read was NOT classified.  Nothing indicated Khan hacked into classified data or that Kirk did something wrong there.  Therefore, there is no policy that Kirk violated.

No way.

No way in Hades did Kirk not give him access to what should have been classified information?

He knew to disable the intruder control system, and knew how to do so so thoroughly that the bridge couldn't override it. Internal security systems and their operations are not common knowledge in any sane world.

Khan specifically said that he understood the manuals and that was an overload in progress. Use the TNG technical manual as an example. That's pretty generic information as to how the warp core works, and that's probably even slightly more than what an interested visitor would get. He specifically knew how to make the ship do something that it's designed with, no doubt multiple layers of security, so as to not do what Khan wanted it to do. (explode)

I'm sorry, but both these elements require a level of technical understanding of the ship that some sort of 'visitor's guide to the Enterprise' wouldn't have and McGiver's didn't.

Which means Kirk gave him full run of the specs.

Which means Kirk's fault.

Edited by prometheus59650

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As for Kirk, again, nothing wrong with what he did.  Kirk hardly was the type to hand over the ship's info to others, but clearly what Kirk allowed Khan to read was NOT classified.  Nothing indicated Khan hacked into classified data or that Kirk did something wrong there.  Therefore, there is no policy that Kirk violated.

No way.

No way in Hades did Kirk not give him access to what should have been classified information?

He knew to disable the intruder control system, and knew how to do so so thoroughly that the bridge couldn't override it. Internal security systems and their operations are not common knowledge in any sane world.

Khan specifically said that he understood the manuals and that was an overload in progress. Use the TNG technical manual as an example. That's pretty generic information as to how the warp core works, and that's probably even slightly more than what an interested visitor would get. He specifically knew how to make the ship do something that it's designed with, no doubt multiple layers of security, so as to not do what Khan wanted it to do. (explode)

I'm sorry, but both these elements require a level of technical understanding of the ship that some sort of 'visitor's guide to the Enterprise' wouldn't have and McGiver's didn't.

Which means Kirk gave him full run of the specs.

Which means Kirk's fault.

I've always thought that Kirk gave him access to the general library system that had a general technical manual. But Khan was a super genius and he figured out how to get into stuff he should not have been able to get into. He or one of his people stole someone's password or something.

In the real world, it would have taken weeks. In TV land, things are always quicker.  Its common for TV shows to say someone is a genius and let them do something in minutes or hours that should have taken weeks. How many times have you seen someone sit down at a computer push a half a dozen buttons and then say that they have just broken into the Pentagon's computers on a TV show?  Once Khan had access to the computer, he figured it out. 

How did Sulu fly a helicopter? There are all sorts of things that characters can do that realistically they shouldn't be able to do. Khan or one of his followers was a top of the line genius computer hacker who broke into the Enterprise security system. 

 

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Well, there's no hint of anything else. Kirk gave him access, now he knows how to do all this stuff.

There's really nothing else implied.

^
Agreed.

It's not said in dialogue that he hacked further into the computer system; all that is said is that he studied the technical manuals. 

Kirk made an error; an error that cost many lives needlessly if only he'd been a bit more leery of a guy who threatened to kill his CMO and wouldn't answer any questions (and whose damn ship was named after a former penal colony, for goodness' sake.  Maybe the ship should've been name the "S.S. Untrustworthy" for Kirk's personal clarification??)

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Well, there's no hint of anything else. Kirk gave him access, now he knows how to do all this stuff.

There's really nothing else implied.

^
Agreed.

It's not said in dialogue that he hacked further into the computer system; all that is said is that he studied the technical manuals. 

Kirk made an error; an error that cost many lives needlessly if only he'd been a bit more leery of a guy who threatened to kill his CMO and wouldn't answer any questions (and whose damn ship was named after a former penal colony, for goodness' sake.  Maybe the ship should've been name the "S.S. Untrustworthy" for Kirk's personal clarification??)

And even with the likes of Sulu flying a chopper, the movie did at least hint that he was picking the pilot's brain. Of course, that's not the same as actually flying something like that, but at least the film tried to suggest more.

With "Space Seed?" Sure evasive stranger, have at the innards of my ship. What could happen?

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While I'm certainly not saying that was the smartest policy, it was still ok with Starfleet.  Kirk didn't make the error there, Starfleet did.  But back on topic, Picard made the error when he mouthed off to Q.

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While I'm certainly not saying that was the smartest policy, it was still ok with Starfleet.  Kirk didn't make the error there, Starfleet did.  But back on topic, Picard made the error when he mouthed off to Q.

Who said showing Khan the ship's technical manuals is Starfleet's policy??

And no, he really didn't.  I can't imagine ANY other captain (not even Janeway) doing any differently.   Kirk probably would've told Q to shove it, and his 'punishment' might've been even worse.   The only 'mouthing off' Picard did was to decline Q's offer to join his crew (which NO captain would've allowed, under any circumstances; especially given Q's record).

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While I'm certainly not saying that was the smartest policy, it was still ok with Starfleet.  Kirk didn't make the error there, Starfleet did.  But back on topic, Picard made the error when he mouthed off to Q.

Who said showing Khan the ship's technical manuals is Starfleet's policy??

And no, he really didn't.  I can't imagine ANY other captain (not even Janeway) doing any differently.   Kirk probably would've told Q to shove it, and his 'punishment' might've been even worse.   The only 'mouthing off' Picard did was to decline Q's offer to join his crew (which NO captain would've allowed, under any circumstances; especially given Q's record).

It's not Starfleet's policy because that's insane. It's literally insane to give strangers full access to your military secrets.

On what do you base that it's okay with Starfleet? That they didn't court-martial him for doing it with Khan? It's pretty clear that he didn't tell them about Khan, much less what he did with him.

Kirk is guilty of active misconduct if not flat out incompetence when it comes to Khan. Picard's only crime is being slightly smug with an entity that was going to do what it was going to do anyway, even though Picard was right. What task is beneath a Q? How long before he got bored and started mischief anyway?

Picard turning him down to turn his back on the ensuing chaos isn't a crime, it's common sense. 

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Given that no one objected to showing Khan the manuals, and that the library was fully available, the presumption has to be that it did not run afoul of Starfleet regulations.  In any instance where Starfleet regulations are violated, the writer chooses to say so, and did not in this case.  Just because a viewer thinks a policy is stupid doesn't mean it isn't a policy. 

 

Picard did more than just politely decline Q's offer.  He was rude and cocky.  What Kirk might have done in a similar situation is not relevant since he wasn't the one that brought the Borg to the Federation.

 

 

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How much information does Khan need? Here is a diagram of the ship with the parts labeled with a brief explanation of what they do. Oh here's the engine room. Get weapons. Go to the engine room. Capture some people and torture them to get them to do what you want. You don't need in depth information on the ship. You can torture the crew to get that. 

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Khan only had access to the library computer, and it was tech he would not even recognize, if he was from 1996. Now if he was given access to the full run of that particular Star Trek episode...perhaps he would figured it out.

Sulu explained in the film that the Hewey helicopter was something he was familiar with from his academy days, or something to that effect, so he likely flew some kind of rebuilt trainer. It would have been a long time ago though. It's explained enough.

Scotty putting transparent aluminum into the timeline was a worse violation, but fortunately they put it on an old boxy Mac, so it probably got lost later. Nichols also would not know how to actually make it. He'd have 'formula' but not whatever exotic metals he'd need to get.

The Borg, Q's fault...but it is also Picard's.

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How much information does Khan need? Here is a diagram of the ship with the parts labeled with a brief explanation of what they do. Oh here's the engine room. Get weapons. Go to the engine room. Capture some people and torture them to get them to do what you want. You don't need in depth information on the ship. You can torture the crew to get that. 

No hint that he tortured anyone in Engineering. The longer he takes once he's in Engineering the greater the chance of the situation going out of his control no matter what, so he had to take it quickly and act quickly. He didn't have time to torture a room full of people, and it would simply have been too easy for a crewman to lie and cause them to alert the bridge. Indeed, in all we see of Engineering, everyone appears unharmed, and they're all even conscious up until Scotty gets hit.

He rushed the place and took it over.

I can give you a description of this or that, but that's not practical either:

 

TurbochargerJetEngine.jpg

 

Here's a diagram, replace the turbine.

And, let's say I gave you a pointed diagram that described every element below and I gave you a paragraph on each...

 

f18c_cp.jpg

 

Activate the electronic countermeasure  pod and set it to the following frequency ranges....

 

Khan had to have had access to detailed information before he even started.

Edited by prometheus59650

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Given that no one objected to showing Khan the manuals, and that the library was fully available, the presumption has to be that it did not run afoul of Starfleet regulations. 

Did Kirk SEEK anyone's approval?  Who was there to object?  Spock only found out by eavesdropping on Khan's library computer use (and Spock noted with a touch of rebuke that "he's making considerable use of our library").  He also threw it in Kirk's face later.  Clearly if Kirk had ASKED Spock, he would've objected.   A smart captain might've ordered restrictions on the use of the sickbay computer interfaces. 

The Borg, Q's fault...but it is also Picard's.

What would you (or any other captain) had done differently?   What is Picard's big mistake?  That he reaffirmed the Starfleet charter to Q and that he refused his offer of being a member of the crew?  What captain would trust Q after all he's done at that point (not to mention that Q still had all of his powers)? 

So to all the naysayers of Picard's actions in this episode I ask: what would YOU have done differently?   What could YOU have done that might've affected a different outcome than the one we saw?

 

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Kirk is out on the frontier.  Starfleet has procedures and rules.  Kirk follows them.  Kirk did not violate any procedure.  Had he done so, Spock would have pointed out the regulation in advance.  As you have said, Spock is not shy about these things. 

 

Picard's big mistake was arrogantly mouthing off to Q, and Q gave him a lesson because of it.  He was rude to Q.  I wouldn't trust Q either, but maybe being a little more polite about it wouldn't have hurt.  This is still an entity that would wipe your entire race out by snapping his fingers.

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Kirk is out on the frontier.  Starfleet has procedures and rules.  Kirk follows them.  Kirk did not violate any procedure.  Had he done so, Spock would have pointed out the regulation in advance.  As you have said, Spock is not shy about these things. 

 

Picard's big mistake was arrogantly mouthing off to Q, and Q gave him a lesson because of it.  He was rude to Q.  I wouldn't trust Q either, but maybe being a little more polite about it wouldn't have hurt.  This is still an entity that would wipe your entire race out by snapping his fingers.

You really think anyone would've been polite to Q after all he'd done before?  Earlier in the episode, he'd ABDUCTED Picard.  How does one react to an abductor: "More tea and crumpets, Q?  Is that foot pillow comfy enough?"  

And you say "Kirk is out on the frontier"... Well where do you think Picard is, Disneyland?  This mission statement is the opening statement of BOTH shows is the same: "Space... the final frontier." 

So being a bit more polite would've prevented everything that happened at J25.   No, I really think NOT.   Picard still would've refused Q's offer (as would any reasonable starship captain under Picard's circumstances).  Q cannot be trusted; he's proved that in their two previous encounters.   Picard correctly refused the offer.   And that was the bottom line, no matter how politely said.   Q would've reacted NO different even if Picard had kissed his hand while refusing.

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Picard isn't anyone.  He's a starship captain.  Q reacted to Picard's arrogance, not his refusal.

And it was only when Picard swallowed his pride and begged Q for help that Q helped.  If it was only the refusal that mattered, then Q would have waited until Picard invited him to join the crew.

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Picard isn't anyone.  He's a starship captain.  Q reacted to Picard's arrogance, not his refusal.

And it was only when Picard swallowed his pride and begged Q for help that Q helped.  If it was only the refusal that mattered, then Q would have waited until Picard invited him to join the crew.

Picard's line: "We are determined, we are resolute.   And your help is not required."

Q:  "We'll just have to see how ready you are!"

SNAPS FINGERS

 

^  Picard seems pretty damned polite to me.
 

Picard stated that about as politely as a just-abducted man could say to his abductor.   Picard was polite as he could be, considering.   I couldn't see Kirk or Janeway inviting him to brunch after such an experience either.    Picard is easily the most diplomatic captain in all of Star Trek, and you're saying he could've prevented the tragedy at J25 (the 18 lost) if only he'd been MORE diplomatic?   I think your premise for the thread is flawed, to be honest. 

And lest anyone forget: Q is a liar, and a misanthrope.  He couldn't be trusted to be a member of the Enterprise crew, even without powers (see: "Deja Q").   He torments and teases inferior cultures, withholds information, etc.   Even if Picard had welcomed him aboard in "Q Who" there is absolutely NO evidence that Q would keep his promise to be "willing an able, ready to serve." 

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 Starfleet has procedures and rules.  Kirk follows them.  Kirk did not violate any procedure.  Had he done so, Spock would have pointed out the regulation in advance.

Clearly he did not because military secrets are not for general consumption.

Why didn't Spock call him out? Television. With Kirk being the hero in a show in the 60s, you don't necessarily point out criminality

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 Starfleet has procedures and rules.  Kirk follows them.  Kirk did not violate any procedure.  Had he done so, Spock would have pointed out the regulation in advance.

Clearly he did not because military secrets are not for general consumption.

Why didn't Spock call him out? Television. With Kirk being the hero in a show in the 60s, you don't necessarily point out criminality

I think its television also but I think its the timeline that shortened. Khan could have done exactly what he did given more time. The show show's him taking over the ship within hours. In reality it would have taken khan a few weeks to get up to speed. But spending weeks to set up his coup would be boring so television sped it up by taking shortcuts.

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I remember the tone he said that, and it was cocky.  And the words are cocky too.  There was arrogance to Picard's words, and well, Q took care of that.

 

As for Spock and Kirk, in the Enterprise Incident, the crew wasn't shy when Kirk acted irrationally at the beginning of the episode.  Ironically, Kirk WAS under orders at that point, but bottom line--if Kirk was doing something wrong, the crew would say so. 

 

 

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I agree with you that Picard was a bit too haughty in his response, but Q was very likely to have done what he did anyway and Picard would be literally nuts to start treating this man like a member of the crew and welcome him aboard.

And, in "The Enterprise Incident," crew only balked at Kirk after weeks of progressively erratic behavior.

And they still followed the order.

So that doesn't really help boost the notion that the crew actually would stand up to him regarding a decision almost none of them knew about anyway.

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I like the idea that he found the episode "Space Seed" and watched it.

Khan is likely smart enough to ask the computer for direct information, "Tell me, computer, where are all the weaknesses on the ship and where is life support, engineering, and auxiliary control", which should have alerted the guy running the database, if it were military. Starfleet is more like a united nation in space with military ranks, but evidently not procedures. You would think it would have some kind of safety protocol in place "access denied, high level clearance only".

It is ultimately ridiculous to give Khan access to anything. You determine from the ship's logs that it it a prison ship from the Eugenics wars, and you lock them in the brig. They don't get any records to look at. But then your show is over. But really how did a prewarp Botany Bay travel to the edge of the frontier? It would still be in Sol space or fairly close to Sol. This discounts the novels where they had some kind of subliminal drive, which it didn't. The writers just weren't too concerned that it made no sense. They just went with it. I'm sure back then they thought it was okay and nobody would be talking about it 48 years later, or the TNG episode some 27 years later.

Edited by Chimera82405

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"Tell me, computer, where are all the weaknesses on the ship and where is life support, engineering, and auxiliary control", which should have alerted the guy running the database,

And that's just ridiculous that  you could ask that and get an answer. I know that Khan has to get this info to propel the episode, but there's no realistic way, in the episode, for him to get them other than making Kirk an idiot.

McGivers shouldn't have been an Historian and I'm not sure that that's necessarily a position you need on a starship. Now, if she were an Engineer with a minor in History, I could buy the rest of it. In that case, then the basic schematics gave him ideas and she filled in the rest. That makes sense and works.

Now one might suggest maybe she minored in Engineering? I doubt it. She didn't seem like the sharpest knife in the drawer beyond her expertise, and she had to essentially guess how to work a 4 or 5 button panel to release Kirk.

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I remember the tone he said that, and it was cocky.  And the words are cocky too.  There was arrogance to Picard's words, and well, Q took care of that.

 

As for Spock and Kirk, in the Enterprise Incident, the crew wasn't shy when Kirk acted irrationally at the beginning of the episode.  Ironically, Kirk WAS under orders at that point, but bottom line--if Kirk was doing something wrong, the crew would say so. 

Am I the only one that heard Spock's sarcasm when he noted how much Khan was using the ship's library?   Or that snarkasm, "Khan was very thorough in his study of our technical manuals."  Clearly Spock didn't agree with Kirk's decision, but he wasn't in the room when Kirk gave Khan access.  THAT'S why he didn't object.  

As for Picard?  I sincerely and truly do NOT believe that if Picard has politely refused Q's offer that the events of "Q Who" wouldn't have happened.  That's utter nonsense.   That's like saying that if Kirk apologized to Khan after the Reliant's first attack all would've been forgiven.   

 

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