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StillKirok

The Borg-Picard's fault?

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This could be a fun yet heated debate, or it could fizzle.  It'll probably end up with repeating the same arguments back and forth, but what the hell?  That's kind of what we do here.

So let's review some pre-Borg history.

There was an episode where they found some 20th century people that were in suspended animation like Khan, except they weren't bad guys. 

In that episode, there was evidence of what would later be considered a Borg attack near the Neutral Zone.

But what I don't know is, and maybe some of you do, is what were the circumstances here?  Let's assume it was the Borg.  Where did they go after that?

Why didn't they continue the attack?  Send a ship, etc?

 

The only conclusion is that destroying this part of the Alpha Quadrant was beneath them at this point.  They weren't aware of the Federation at this time, based on Q Who.  They were not worthy of assimilation.  If that were the case, the cube would have continued either toward Romulan Space or to the Federation.  Either way, the Federation would known about the threat.

 

When Q flung the Enterprise to system J25, things changed.  Of course, things evolve based on the writers, but based on Voyager, it would have taken the Enterprise 7 years to get home from that area.  So the Borg weren't exactly in the Delta Quadrant in that confrontation.

But at that point, they hadn't deemed the Federation worthy of assimilation.

It was only the initial confrontation with Picard and crew that got their attention.  After all, this ship did do some damage, and it more important, it completely vanished.  That was an unknown technology to them--one that must be assimilated.

 

Guinan speculated that Q sped up the meeting of the Federation and the Borg, and by doing so, the Federation wasn't technologically ready. 

Now if that's true, then Picard's arrogance directly led Q to shut him up by bringing him to the Borg, which brought humanity to the attention of the Borg far sooner than it should have happened.  This was a disastrous first contact because not only was it too soon, it showed the Borg that the Federation was no real match, and they could easily assimilate them. 

If they events of Q Who didn't happen then, the confrontations with the Borg don't happen as we saw them.  I would say that maybe first contact with the Borg would have been Janeway in the Delta Quadrant instead. 

All those lives we saw lost--all because Picard mouthed off to Q.

 

 

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When Q flung the Enterprise to system J25, things changed.  Of course, things evolve based on the writers, but based on Voyager, it would have taken the Enterprise 7 years to get home from that area.  So the Borg weren't exactly in the Delta Quadrant in that confrontation.

Guinan speculated that Q sped up the meeting of the Federation and the Borg, and by doing so, the Federation wasn't technologically ready. 

Now if that's true, then Picard's arrogance directly led Q to shut him up by bringing him to the Borg, which brought humanity to the attention of the Borg far sooner than it should have happened.  This was a disastrous first contact because not only was it too soon, it showed the Borg that the Federation was no real match, and they could easily assimilate them. 

No, but they were close.  Probably because of the events of ENT where they sent a distress beacon off towards the Delta Quadrant near the end of "Regeneration."   So, all Q really did was push up an encounter that was already predestined to happen because of events in the 22nd century (and arguably the Borg temporal incursion of 2063).

Picard is blameless.   The Borg were ALREADY coming, ready or not.   One could also argue that Picard's hubris to Q wound up giving the Federation a few extra years of preparation that they wouldn't have otherwise had if the Borg just marched in unannounced.    

 

All those lives we saw lost--all because Picard mouthed off to Q.

^
Picard bought them time.   What if VGR were destroyed or assimilated in the Delta Quadrant and the Borg came to the Alpha Quadrant fully aware of Federation defenses and technology AHEAD of their first Alpha quadrant encounter?  They would've gone straight to Earth and assimilated the entire planet with no resistance. 

Picard's actions, intentional or not, bought the Federation valuable time.   Not to mention that his advice to Data in BoBW2 ("Sleep Data") and his following the Borg back in time in First Contact SAVED the Federation, at the cost of his own humanity as well.  Picard was raped and violated at the most personal level in BoBW; I'd say he more than paid a price for any hubris or pride earlier on...

 

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No, but they were close.  Probably because of the events of ENT where they sent a distress beacon off towards the Delta Quadrant near the end of "Regeneration."   So, all Q really did was push up an encounter that was already predestined to happen because of events in the 22nd century (and arguably the Borg temporal incursion of 2063).

Picard is blameless.   The Borg were ALREADY coming, ready or not.   One could also argue that Picard's hubris to Q wound up giving the Federation a few extra years of preparation that they wouldn't have otherwise had if the Borg just marched in unannounced.    

Here's the thing--Regeneration probably changed history a bit.  I think the events of FC changed history, and we may have seen an alternate timeline post-FC.  So when I think of Q Who and Neutral Zone, I think we're in a timeline where Regeneration didn't happen yet.  But let's go with your theory.  Let's say it's one happy timeline, and that Q Who and Regeneration both happened.  I would argue that yes, the meeting between the Borg and the Federation definitely happens anyway.  And yes, the Borg WERE coming.   I don't think that's disputable.  We have to take it as a given, especially since even Q Who said something to that effect.

But I think it's also indisputable that Q did push up that encounter. 

But what IS debatable is when that confrontation happens.  Guinan and Q both made it seem like it was years away, not one year away.  Yes, the Federation had that year to prepare, but what did that year accomplish? 

Would the events of BOBW have happened as they did without the events of Q Who?  It's clear Picard not only learned of the Borg, he got their attention.  THAT probably doesn't happen without Q Who. 

So much changes as we all know.  What if the encounter was 50 years away?  Or 100?  Or 500?  The Federation may be ready and able to defend themselves at that point.

Without the events of Q Who, you don't have the events of BOBW. 

All those people that die at Wolf 359, don't die.  They live and maybe a descendant invents a superweapon that stops the Borg, like Species 8472 did.  Or they have a contact with a species that can share a weapon.

Without BOBW, there is no FC because the Borg wouldn't have come up with that stupid and out of character idea for time travel.  Without the events of FC, there is no Regeneration so no warning.  That's why I wonder if Q's interference set all of that in motion, all because Picard mouthed off.

 

So did Picard truly BUY them time, or COST them time?

I do agree he sure paid a personal price for that arrogance/hubris, but how many others did as well?

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How many people did Kirk kill by his actions in "Space Seed"?  How many died in the Dominion War that Sisko arguably precipitated by entering the Gamma quadrant uninvited?  Risk... risk is our business. 

And while we're on the subject, exactly HOW exactly did Picard 'mouth off' to Q in "Q Who"? 
Q wanted Picard to make him a crewman aboard his ship.  

Now I ask you: would ANY starship captain, based on Q's previous actions, take Q up on his offer?  No.  And when Q asked what justified Riker's 'arrogance' in stating that they didn't need Q's help, Picard replied (again, as ANY starship captain worth his/her salt would), "Not smugness, not arrogance.  We are determined.  We are resolute, and your help is not required."

That is the textbook response that any starship captain in those circumstances would've given.  It's not 'mouthing off'; it's a reaffirmation of the Enterprise's (and Starfleet's) charter: to boldly go where no one has gone before.  

Not to use a misanthropic omniscient alien known for trickery and deceit as a tour guide...

Would the events of BOBW have happened as they did without the events of Q Who? 

No, they wouldn't have.

Picard piqued the interest of the Borg; specifically, as we later learned in FC, the Borg Queen.   Had he not?  The Borg would've just plowed straight to Earth and began assimilation of the entire planet post haste.  Just another day at the office for them.   But they took a unique interest in Picard; something about him personally fascinated them.  Their assimilation of him worked for humanity's benefit as well.   Since the Ent-D crew were able to retrieve Picard, they were also able to use his knowledge of the Borg to defeat them.  Their interest in Picard was ultimately the key to their own defeat. 

But without Picard?  Earth wouldn't have had a chance...

 

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Not for the first encounter, but he's to blame for every death/assimilation after Hugh. The idea that the Borg didn't know what to do with someone's personality is so stupid as to almost defy discussion because then you have to buy that one of the fundamental aspects of the Borg isn't what it is: subsuming personality into the hive mind.

You have an implacable, monstrous enemy that will eventually destroy you and everything else that lives independently, and you don't try to destroy them all when you have the chance because of your personal conscience? The nonsense of it galls and angers me. So Jean-Luc Picard can say that he's kept to his personal values millions will wake up to their last day with their kids, their lives. By sunset they're dead and worse than dead.

Single worst moment for the character and I can't watch that episode without wanting to pummel the man. 

 

That out of the way:

And while we're on the subject, exactly HOW exactly did Picard 'mouth off' to Q in "Q Who"? 
Q wanted Picard to make him a crewman aboard his ship.  

Now I ask you: would ANY starship captain, based on Q's previous actions, take Q up on his offer?  No.  And when Q asked what justified Riker's 'arrogance' in stating that they didn't need Q's help, Picard replied (again, as ANY starship captain worth his/her salt would), "Not smugness, not arrogance.  We are determined.  We are resolute, and your help is not required."

He didn't mouth off per se, but there is a bit of smugness in, "How can we be prepared for that which we do not know? But I do know that we are ready to encounter it."

No. Clearly you are not.

It would have been less smug to say something like, "How can we be prepared for that which we do not know? In Starfleet's history there have been more than a few times when a crew hasn't been able to overcome what was set before them, but, as one captain once said, "Risk is our business."

That bit of honesty just might have avoided the rest of the episode, which was simply Q responding, "Wanna bet?"

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Not for the first encounter, but he's to blame for every death/assimilation after Hugh. The idea that the Borg didn't know what to do with someone's personality is so stupid as to almost defy discussion because then you have to buy that one of the fundamental aspects of the Borg isn't what it is: subsuming personality into the hive mind.

You have an implacable, monstrous enemy that will eventually destroy you and everything else that lives independently, and you don't try to destroy them all when you have the chance because of your personal conscience? The nonsense of it galls and angers me. So Jean-Luc Picard can say that he's kept to his personal values millions will wake up to their last day with their kids, their lives. By sunset they're dead and worse than dead.

Single worst moment for the character and I can't watch that episode without wanting to pummel the man. 

 

That out of the way:

And while we're on the subject, exactly HOW exactly did Picard 'mouth off' to Q in "Q Who"? 
Q wanted Picard to make him a crewman aboard his ship.  

Now I ask you: would ANY starship captain, based on Q's previous actions, take Q up on his offer?  No.  And when Q asked what justified Riker's 'arrogance' in stating that they didn't need Q's help, Picard replied (again, as ANY starship captain worth his/her salt would), "Not smugness, not arrogance.  We are determined.  We are resolute, and your help is not required."

He didn't mouth off per se, but there is a bit of smugness in, "How can we be prepared for that which we do not know? But I do know that we are ready to encounter it."

No. Clearly you are not.

It would have been less smug to say something like, "How can we be prepared for that which we do not know? In Starfleet's history there have been more than a few times when a crew hasn't been able to overcome what was set before them, but, as one captain once said, "Risk is our business."

That bit of honesty just might have avoided the rest of the episode, which was simply Q responding, "Wanna bet?"

Or given Q's capricious nature, he could've simply said, "So, you like taking risks, do you?"  Snaps fingers.  Same exact outcome.

Point is, Picard, and arguably no other captain in Starfleet, would've taken Q up on his offer, so ANY answer Picard (or Riker, or Janeway, or Sisko, etc) would've given would not have yielded a positive result in that encounter.   Maybe (as Picard later says to Guinan) Q's real purpose in that episode was to speed up humanity's encounter with the Borg precisely because he wanted them to be ready when they entered the Alpha quadrant.   Q loves humanity in a perverse way; they're like his pets.   He chose to be human in "Deja Q" (when he could've been ANY organism in the universe).   He looks out for them at almost every turn.   In Q's logic, letting the Enterprise-D and her crew suffer a 'bloody nose' at J25 would better prepare them for the agony they would later suffer at Wolf 359.   By letting the Ent-D crew be aware of the Borg, and piquing the Borg's interest in Picard?   The horrific losses in BOBW ultimately yielded a positive result; a Starfleet and Federation better prepared for encountering the Borg ("First Contact" and VGR speak to that) and a Federation that has a better understanding of the dangers of other parts of the galaxy (though arguably Sisko and company failed to heed that warning when they blundered into the Gamma quadrant and immediately began setting up colonies.... for chrissakes, Sisko was at the battle of Wolf 359 and he didn't learn any lessons from his Borg encounter?).

And yes, that is a loophole in the writing of "I, Borg"; I like the episode, but it's not without continuity issues.  The prime of which is that the Borg suppress personalities and individuality for a LIVING.   It's highly unlikely they wouldn't have know what to do with Hugh, but oh well... that's another thread.

 

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For me though, yes, there is some smugness and arrogance in the response.

That said, no, no sane captain would have welcomed Q aboard.

Right, and Q would've thrown his hissy-fit anyway.   I doubt he would've just sulked, flashed back to the Continuum and sent off an angry Tweet about it... 

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scenario   

According to StillKirok the first indication of the Borg was activity in the neutral zone. This indicates that the Borg were in the area before the Picard/Q incident. The Borg attack in BOBW was a straight in attack to the center of the Federation by one Borg ship. 

If the Borg had been slowly expanding towards the Federation there should have been a flood of refugees coming in before the Borg got there. So this was a direct attack, not a slow expansion. By this time, Earth has been sending radio waves out for more than 400 years. There was plenty of time for the Borg to find out about us. We haven't been attacked yet because they were too far away and there were more tempting targets nearby. 

I think that the Borg activity in the neutral zone was a scouting party. The Borg vessel was on the way. Either it had been sent many years ago on a mission to set up a Borg colony civilization or it was planning to use the shortcut that voyager used to get there. This was all set up before the Enterprise went to system J25 since the neutral zone activity happened earlier. 

Q new that a Borg attack was going to happen within a year or two. He also knew that the Federation could not withstand the attack. He was powerful enough to end it himself but the Q just doesn't do things like that. So he knew that the Federation couldn't win by brute force, they would have to win by outsmarting the Borg. Picard was shrewdest human that Q knew. So he invented an excuse to bring Picard on what was essentially a scouting expedition to the Borg. Advanced notice would give the Federation a chance they would not have if the Borg just came in unnoticed. 

Picard was not at fault. Q would have done the same thing no matter what Picard said. 

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"It's not safe out there. It's wondrous, with temptations to satiate desires both subtle and gross, and terrors to freeze your soul. But it's not for the timid."

Q tested Picard because he has this thing about humanity, as perhaps the Q at one time were humanoids and they're like kindred. Q both hindered and helped the Federation. It was not Picard's fault. When faced with a demigod, what could he do? Suppose he had gone along with it? But he wouldn't have.

The writers and staff changed the Borg so much they even at times forgot what they could do, for either convenience or they just didn't like earlier versions. I don't think the notion of using a destructive program, as in I Hugh, would have been ethical. It also would not have worked. You would think a species with tech and nanotech so much more advanced than the Federation, they would have a firewall or some kind of antivirus. It's not Independence Day and the aliens have Mac not Window, or vise versa.

Perhaps Q thought the Borg were a good test of the reliance on tech the Federation was using, and of the notion of individual versus a hive mind, and later the adaptation of a queen.

Are the Borg in a mutiverse seeing timelines all at once, and can they therefore win in different timelines, and lose in others? If so, they won somewhere. They're cheating though, not like Q with his time and space powers, but using tech. How does that work?

If you had a superweapon that could destroy the Borg, like the Destiny novels had an alien Q like race that used that device, but you were just the Federation and didn't know how to use it, would you use it wisely? Probably not. Humans should not play with such toys.

Look at that episode where that alien old man killed off an entire race and banished himself (and his wife as an illusion or something) to that planet. "The Survivors"?

I think the Borg were coming anyway.

Also on another thought, the Borg aren't made into a collective hive mind that cannot adapt to other stimuli. In Voyager episodes, (agreeably they did hamstring the Borg), the hive mind seemed capable of even creativity (the massive trans warp network, unimatrix zero, future Borg man, tactical cubes, etc), and would not have been affected by a mere program virus. They would have adapted as though it was merely a glitch and purged it. They were capable of being singular minds, (Seven of Nine, Hugh), but chose not to be. They could be turned back, (Seven, Echeb). It weasn't like they had to be "not a he, not a she, but an advanced humanoid". Well they were still he or she. If they had stayed soullesss lethal terminator space zombies, it would have not been as interesting. It is the Federation that likely lured them with their expansion into the 24th century.

Maybe they even have something of a rank and file, or at least later did. The Borg in the first encounters were just scouts, drones, or pawns. The later ones were warriors, and then when Voyager found them, she found more of the scientists and high upper class ones, that were not as good at fighting (leading to ridiculous episodes where the Voyager blew up some cubes, come on). They then called for tactical backup. They even called in desperation for time travel into the past, to activate that multiverse idea.

"This is not the end of history."

"I am moving back and forth trough time."

"You can fool some of the people, some of the time."

 

Edited by Chimera82405

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Kirk and Sisko in Space Seed and in exploring the Gamma Quadrant, didn't do so out of arrogance, but by carrying out Starfleet's respective missions. They didn't mouth off to a godlike entity and get shown a lesson due to their arrogance.

As for BOBW, obviously the Borg changed a lot since that episode, and not for the better, but ultimately, without Q Who, the Borg wouldn't have contacted humanity for years and years.  By then, maybe things are different as humanity is advanced.  Remember, the Borg can't beat everyone, as Species 8472 showed.

VERY interesting point about Hugh.  That's a totally different, but no less important topic.

The idea that Q did what he did to give them a year's warning is interesting, but the episode itself doesn't show that.  Just speculation.

 

 

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Kirk and Sisko in Space Seed and in exploring the Gamma Quadrant, didn't do so out of arrogance, but by carrying out Starfleet's respective missions. They didn't mouth off to a godlike entity and get shown a lesson due to their arrogance.

Oh, there's a good bit of smugness and arrogance in Starfleet's response in the Gamma Quadrant. Here you have the Dominion announcing that the GQ is their territory...at least enough of it around the wormhole to cut off  further Starfleet exploration. They've claimed the space, are completely capable of defending it, and willing to destroy literally everything that comes through, from colonies, to doing kamikaze runs on retreating starships.

Starfleet's response? "Yeah, this is a supremely dangerous situation. Let's keep exploring even though it requires cutting through the sovereign territory of a hostile power."

That's akin to flicking your fingers between the eyes of an angry bear, "What are you gonna do?" (flick) "What are you gonna do, huh?" (flick)

That's arrogance. 

Edited by prometheus59650

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Kirk and Sisko in Space Seed and in exploring the Gamma Quadrant, didn't do so out of arrogance, but by carrying out Starfleet's respective missions.

Okay, that line about Kirk in Space Seed is a load of crap.

He shows a very evasive (possibly criminal?) guest the Enterprise's technical manuals (!), then he ALLOWS a man who nearly killed him (twice) to go free on a new planet, and also allowed his coconspirator, ship's historian Marla McGivers, to go with him (unpunished; no court martial for mutiny) to settle a f--king planet together.   As if all of that wasn't non-regulation enough, he leaves him on the planet, unchecked.   Not checking the geological stability of any nearby planets.  Not putting ANY kind of warning buoy or automated marker in orbit over Ceti Alpha 5 (or about the entire system).   That action alone would've saved Clark Terrell's life, as well as the ENTIRE crew of the Regula One space station.  

So basically Kirk's f--kups in Space Seed create the entire chain of events in TWOK and lead to ALL of the deaths therein, including Scotty's nephew and any of the other trainees who didn't make it out of the engine room.   Even in the Mutara nebula battle, he didn't know what to do next till Spock both advises him on Khan's strategy and later sacrifices himself to get the warp core online to save the ship.

ALL because Kirk showed an evasive and shady character (who wouldn't even offer a full NAME) the complete technical manuals of Kirk's damn ship.

That was NOT per Starfleet regulations.  Pretty sure that Starfleet wouldn't have condoned or approved of any of Kirk's actions.  McGivers should've been court-martialed, and Khan and his crew should've never seen daylight again. 

The idea that Q did what he did to give them a year's warning is interesting, but the episode itself doesn't show that.  Just speculation.

^

Not at all. 

It's Picard's own suspicion, as voiced in dialogue between he and Guinan at the episode's final scene in Ten-Forward:

 GUINAN: Q set a series of events into motion, bringing contact with the Borg much sooner than it should have come. Now, perhaps when you're ready, it might be possible to establish a relationship with them. But for now, for right now, you're just raw material to them. Since they are aware of your existence... 
PICARD: They will be coming.
GUINAN: You can bet on it.
PICARD: Maybe Q did the right thing for the wrong reason.
GUINAN: How so?
PICARD: Well, perhaps what we most needed was a kick in our complacency, to prepare us ready for what lies ahead.

^
Speculation by the episode by the captain or any other important character IS the episode's way of 'showing it.'  I don't know how much more literal you need it to be.  And as we've seen in other episodes, including this one, Q does (in his own way) 'look out' for humanity's best interests (as a species, not necessarily for individuals... hence the 18 dead crewmen). 

Kirk and Sisko in Space Seed and in exploring the Gamma Quadrant, didn't do so out of arrogance, but by carrying out Starfleet's respective missions. They didn't mouth off to a godlike entity and get shown a lesson due to their arrogance.

Oh, there's a good bit of smugness and arrogance in Starfleet's response in the Gamma Quadrant. Here you have the Dominion announcing that the GQ is their territory...at least enough of it around the wormhole to cut off  further Starfleet exploration. They've claimed the space, are completely capable of defending it, and willing to destroy literally everything that comes through, from colonies, to doing kamikaze runs on retreating starships.

Starfleet's response? "Yeah, this is a supremely dangerous situation. Let's keep exploring even though it requires cutting through the sovereign territory of a hostile power."

That's akin to flicking your fingers between the eyes of an angry bear, "What are you gonna do?" (flick) "What are you gonna do, huh?" (flick)

That's arrogance. 

^
Very much this.

Especially after the events of "Q Who" clearly demonstrate there are unknown parts of the galaxy that might be a bit dangerous, or at least unwelcoming of human/humanoid settlers. 

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He shows a very evasive (possibly criminal?) guest the Enterprise's technical manuals (!), then he ALLOWS a man who nearly killed him (twice) to go free on a new planet, and also allowed his coconspirator, ship's historian Marla McGivers, to go with him (unpunished; no court martial for mutiny) to settle a f--king planet together.   As if all of that wasn't non-regulation enough, he leaves him on the planet, unchecked.   Not checking the geological stability of any nearby planets.  Not putting ANY kind of warning buoy or automated marker in orbit over Ceti Alpha 5 (or about the entire system).   That action alone would've saved Clark Terrell's life, as well as the ENTIRE crew of the Regula One space station.  

So basically Kirk's f--kups in Space Seed create the entire chain of events in TWOK and lead to ALL of the deaths therein, including Scotty's nephew and any of the other trainees who didn't make it out of the engine room.   Even in the Mutara nebula battle, he didn't know what to do next till Spock both advises him on Khan's strategy and later sacrifices himself to get the warp core online to save the ship.

ALL because Kirk showed an evasive and shady character (who wouldn't even offer a full NAME) the complete technical manuals of Kirk's damn ship.

That was NOT per Starfleet regulations.  Pretty sure that Starfleet wouldn't have condoned or approved of any of Kirk's actions.  McGivers should've been court-martialed, and Khan and his crew should've never seen daylight again. 

All of this. All of it.

I'm not even sure Kirk had the authority to drop all the charges, as hijacking the ship, would be a crime against the Federation and/or Starfleet (i.e. the state) and not necessarily within the purview of the Captain to forgive, but let's say McCoy was right and that he did. I'm pretty sure he did NOT have the authority to make that call and not tell Starfleet that he did and he told them nothing.

Indeed, DS9 suggests to me that he didn't. Look at Starfleet's reaction to Bashir the better part of a century later. Look at their reaction to a man as far removed from the likes of Khan Singh as you can get. They were no less than freaked the hell out and ready to drum him out even though he'd never done anything. 

What would Starfleet's reaction have been if Kirk had said, "Oh, by the way, I left one of  Earth's greatest despots and 80 of his genetically-engineered brethren unsupervised on an uninhabited world?" They would have flipped and come to confine them all or, at the very least forever had ships milling around the system to keep an eye out. Add to that that no sort of notice pops up on the Reliant's computers when they enter the system advising them to stay clear of the fifth planet?

Kirk told them nothing.

Terrell and every other death is on Kirk and he should have been shackled the minute he docked at Earth.

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He shows a very evasive (possibly criminal?) guest the Enterprise's technical manuals (!), then he ALLOWS a man who nearly killed him (twice) to go free on a new planet, and also allowed his coconspirator, ship's historian Marla McGivers, to go with him (unpunished; no court martial for mutiny) to settle a f--king planet together.   As if all of that wasn't non-regulation enough, he leaves him on the planet, unchecked.   Not checking the geological stability of any nearby planets.  Not putting ANY kind of warning buoy or automated marker in orbit over Ceti Alpha 5 (or about the entire system).   That action alone would've saved Clark Terrell's life, as well as the ENTIRE crew of the Regula One space station.  

So basically Kirk's f--kups in Space Seed create the entire chain of events in TWOK and lead to ALL of the deaths therein, including Scotty's nephew and any of the other trainees who didn't make it out of the engine room.   Even in the Mutara nebula battle, he didn't know what to do next till Spock both advises him on Khan's strategy and later sacrifices himself to get the warp core online to save the ship.

ALL because Kirk showed an evasive and shady character (who wouldn't even offer a full NAME) the complete technical manuals of Kirk's damn ship.

That was NOT per Starfleet regulations.  Pretty sure that Starfleet wouldn't have condoned or approved of any of Kirk's actions.  McGivers should've been court-martialed, and Khan and his crew should've never seen daylight again. 

All of this. All of it.

I'm not even sure Kirk had the authority to drop all the charges, as hijacking the ship, would be a crime against the Federation and/or Starfleet (i.e. the state) and not necessarily within the purview of the Captain to forgive, but let's say McCoy was right and that he did. I'm pretty sure he did NOT have the authority to make that call and not tell Starfleet that he did and he told them nothing.

Indeed, DS9 suggests to me that he didn't. Look at Starfleet's reaction to Bashir the better part of a century later. Look at their reaction to a man as far removed from the likes of Khan Singh as you can get. They were no less than freaked the hell out and ready to drum him out even though he'd never done anything. 

What would Starfleet's reaction have been if Kirk had said, "Oh, by the way, I left one of  Earth's greatest despots and 80 of his genetically-engineered brethren unsupervised on an uninhabited world?" They would have flipped and come to confine them all or, at the very least forever had ships milling around the system to keep an eye out. Add to that that no sort of notice pops up on the Reliant's computers when they enter the system advising them to stay clear of the fifth planet?

Kirk told them nothing.

Terrell and every other death is on Kirk and he should have been shackled the minute he docked at Earth.

That Terrell had to be TOLD the story by Chekov during their captivity on Ceti Alpha V speaks to the fact that Kirk kept it off the books; hence, everything in TWOK is entirely on Kirk's shoulders.   

Picard 'mouthing off' to Q (by reaffirming Starfleet's mandate to him) hardly seems the same caliber of crime of Kirk allowing a ruthless dictator and 72 of his strongest henchmen to settle a habitable planet instead of going to prison (!) and then losing the planet's address (knowing some other vessel might very well re-visit that planet someday).  If it wouldn't make for a less entertaining sequel than the ones that followed, Kirk should've been tried for gross criminal negligence for all the losses suffered in TWOK.

One more charge to add: his ignoring Saavik's advice about General Order 12, when the Reliant approached the Enterprise approached under a mysterious communications blackout.  If he'd raised the shields at that moment instead of later, it might've made it a significant difference in the outcome of that attack. 

I don't mean to turn this into a Kirk thread, but the point of this thread seemed to be a Picard-egging, so I think it only fair to point out the failings of other starship captains who have done far worse.  And IMO, Picard committed no mistake in "Q Who" other than reaffirming what ANY good starship captain would've told Q under those circumstances: Thanks, but no thanks.  We got this. 

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Not for the first encounter, but he's to blame for every death/assimilation after Hugh. The idea that the Borg didn't know what to do with someone's personality is so stupid as to almost defy discussion because then you have to buy that one of the fundamental aspects of the Borg isn't what it is: subsuming personality into the hive mind.

You have an implacable, monstrous enemy that will eventually destroy you and everything else that lives independently, and you don't try to destroy them all when you have the chance because of your personal conscience? The nonsense of it galls and angers me. So Jean-Luc Picard can say that he's kept to his personal values millions will wake up to their last day with their kids, their lives. By sunset they're dead and worse than dead.

Single worst moment for the character and I can't watch that episode without wanting to pummel the man. 

 

Exactly. This is the moment when the more peaceful Trek we got with TNG got too much in it's own way.The whole "if we do this we're no better than they are" excuse for not doing the virus thing was so wrong on so many levels. All those deaths in FC are potentially on Picard because he felt bad for a drone, and he above everyone else should have known what had to be done. Also sad that Beverly and Geordi would seemingly rather be turned into drones than going along with Picard's plan. 

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Not for the first encounter, but he's to blame for every death/assimilation after Hugh. The idea that the Borg didn't know what to do with someone's personality is so stupid as to almost defy discussion because then you have to buy that one of the fundamental aspects of the Borg isn't what it is: subsuming personality into the hive mind.

You have an implacable, monstrous enemy that will eventually destroy you and everything else that lives independently, and you don't try to destroy them all when you have the chance because of your personal conscience? The nonsense of it galls and angers me. So Jean-Luc Picard can say that he's kept to his personal values millions will wake up to their last day with their kids, their lives. By sunset they're dead and worse than dead.

Single worst moment for the character and I can't watch that episode without wanting to pummel the man. 

 

Exactly. This is the moment when the more peaceful Trek we got with TNG got too much in it's own way.The whole "if we do this we're no better than they are" excuse for not doing the virus thing was so wrong on so many levels. All those deaths in FC are potentially on Picard because he felt bad for a drone, and he above everyone else should have known what had to be done. Also sad that Beverly and Geordi would seemingly rather be turned into drones than going along with Picard's plan. 

^
Disagree that the deaths in FC are on Picard; there is nothing in canon that states those drones aboard the cube in "First Contact" were part of Hugh's unimatrix.  In fact, they couldn't be, otherwise they'd be infected with individuality as well.   The drones that were 'infected' by the Ent-D in "I, Borg" were separated from the collective (as we saw in "Descent part 2"), hence the one event didn't affect the outcome of the other. 

It's also possible that Geordi's original plan to infect them with a destructive program might not have worked for the same reason the 'individualized' Borg weren't allowed to spread among the rest of the hive (and for the same reason they were without guidance and welcomed Lore as their savior); the other Borg would've spotted the irregularity and severed the link between that collective and the rest of the hive mind.   

As VGR tells us, each Borg collective are a separate unimatrix that can interact with another, but they are not necessarily in constant contact all of the time.   In fact, they couldn't be; since we already saw the Borg in "First Contact" having to modify the Ent-E's deflector dish in an attempt to contact the Borg in the 21st century's Delta Quadrant.   If they were already linked across the galaxy, they would need no such apparatus. 

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It was Starfleet policy to be kind to guests.  Khan was a 20th century Earth human.  Kirk at the time didn't have his identity and didn't have the inkling that Khan would do what he did.  Yes, Khan took over the ship temporarily, but Kirk didn't violate Starfleet policy there.  As for the end of Space Seed, there's nothing to suggest that Kirk violated regulations or hid his actions from Starfleet, which means that they knew everything he did.  If Starfleet found something wrong there, they sure didn't do anything about it.  Terrell didn't know because I don't think every captain knows every adventure of every other captain in the fleet.  This guy couldn't even count planets so his competence is in question.

 

The dialogue you posted from Q Who actually proves my point, not yours.  Picard is merely speculating that Q gave him a comeuppance due to their arrogance.  He just tried to spin it so it was a good thing.  But the key part of that dialogue you posted was that Picard's encounter with the Borg put the Federation on the radar long before it was going to happen anyway.  Had Q not interfered, the Borg confrontation would have been much later. 

And as for the Gamma Quadrant--the Federation explores new space.  That's kind of what they do.  Their mission is peaceful, but they do explore.  So when finding a wormhole to the Gamma Quadrant, of course they will check it out. 

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It was Starfleet policy to be kind to guests.  Khan was a 20th century Earth human.  Kirk at the time didn't have his identity and didn't have the inkling that Khan would do what he did.  Yes, Khan took over the ship temporarily, but Kirk didn't violate Starfleet policy there.  As for the end of Space Seed, there's nothing to suggest that Kirk violated regulations or hid his actions from Starfleet, which means that they knew everything he did.  If Starfleet found something wrong there, they sure didn't do anything about it.  Terrell didn't know because I don't think every captain knows every adventure of every other captain in the fleet.  This guy couldn't even count planets so his competence is in question.

 

The dialogue you posted from Q Who actually proves my point, not yours.  Picard is merely speculating that Q gave him a comeuppance due to their arrogance.  He just tried to spin it so it was a good thing.  But the key part of that dialogue you posted was that Picard's encounter with the Borg put the Federation on the radar long before it was going to happen anyway.  Had Q not interfered, the Borg confrontation would have been much later. 

And as for the Gamma Quadrant--the Federation explores new space.  That's kind of what they do.  Their mission is peaceful, but they do explore.  So when finding a wormhole to the Gamma Quadrant, of course they will check it out. 

And if you understood my post correctly, that's what I meant; Picard's inference informs the audience.   That's the connection.  Q was acting for humanity's benefit, however inadvertently seeming.  He even warned Picard that "you're not prepared for what awaits you."   This WAS his way of saving Picard and his crew later on; by giving them a taste of their future.

It was Starfleet policy to be kind to guests.

Where is that in the manual? Especially guests who refuse to answer even basic questions like 'what's your full name?'  Especially a 'guest' who just held your ship's doctor at knife point only moments earlier.   I'm pretty sure that "being kind to guests" (who nearly slashed your CMO's throat) doesn't extend to giving them access to the technical manuals to the ship.   That is weapons-grade stupid on Kirk's part.

Even Spock called Kirk on his decision when he said (after being locked on the bridge), "Mr. Khan was very thorough in his study of our technical manuals."   Material he should've NEVER had access to.   Don't tell me they don't know how to classify sensitive material in the 23rd century.   Even tours of the engine room and bridge were off-limits in some TOS and TNG episodes. 

That single action, as well as his failure to put Khan away when he had the chance (and court-martial McGivers for mutiny) cost MANY lives.  Even McGivers; she'd be safe in a Starfleet brig instead of being baby eel food on Ceti Alpha V.   And Khan and his crew would've never seen daylight again.   End of story.

You can't defend Kirk's action and continue to slap Picard's wrists for 'mouthing off' to Q: that's wildly hypocritical, esp. since Picard did nothing wrong in that episode except for refusing Q's offer (unlike Kirk in Space Seed).

 

 

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It's also possible that Geordi's original plan to infect them with a destructive program might not have worked for the same reason the 'individualized' Borg weren't allowed to spread among the rest of the hive (and for the same reason they were without guidance and welcomed Lore as their savior); the other Borg would've spotted the irregularity and severed the link between that collective and the rest of the hive mind.   

Might not have worked, but he didn't even try. He put his own fragile feels ahead of, potentially billions of lives. That's what I can't stomach.

I can only imagine the reason that there wasn't an official standing order to destroy the single greatest threat facing the Federation if the opportunity arose before Hugh came along was because they never expected that a Captain wouldn't take it before his conscience.

Picard deserved worse than that bite on the backside that Necheyev gave him for it. It deserved a thorough shredding.

It was Starfleet policy to be kind to guests.  Khan was a 20th century Earth human.  Kirk at the time didn't have his identity and didn't have the inkling that Khan would do what he did.

'Kind to guests' is not, 'Here, study the guts of Stafleet's most advanced vessel.' If that information is that free and open to anyone, God help the Federation when a Klingon spy happens by with a good plastic surgeon and a sob story.

And, sure Kirk did. This man comes off as deliberately evasive instantly at first blush. Won't give his full name and the poor man becomes "fatigued" the moment you try to pin him down, the poor thing. But, here, have a look at the schematics of my ship.

There's a reason I can't walk into the Pentagon and demand to see all the specs for the F-35 or the Zumwalt. Hell, there are things still classified about the SR-71 and that's 50 years old and retired.

Edited by prometheus59650

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It's also possible that Geordi's original plan to infect them with a destructive program might not have worked for the same reason the 'individualized' Borg weren't allowed to spread among the rest of the hive (and for the same reason they were without guidance and welcomed Lore as their savior); the other Borg would've spotted the irregularity and severed the link between that collective and the rest of the hive mind.   

Might not have worked, but he didn't even try. He put his own fragile feels ahead of, potentially billions of lives. That's what I can't stomach.

I can only imagine the reason that there wasn't an official standing order to destroy the single greatest threat facing the Federation if the opportunity arose before Hugh came along was because they never expected that a Captain wouldn't take it before his conscience.

Picard deserved worse than that bite on the backside that Necheyev gave him for it. It deserved a thorough shredding.

It was Starfleet policy to be kind to guests.  Khan was a 20th century Earth human.  Kirk at the time didn't have his identity and didn't have the inkling that Khan would do what he did.

'Kind to guests' is not, 'Here, study the guts of Stafleet's most advanced vessel.' If that information is that free and open to anyone, God help the Federation when a Klingon spy happens by with a good plastic surgeon and a sob story.

And, sure Kirk did. This man comes off as deliberately evasive instantly at first blush. Won't give his full name and the poor man becomes "fatigued" the moment you try to pin him down, the poor thing. But, here, have a look at the schematics of my ship.

There's a reason I can't walk into the Pentagon and demand to see all the specs for the F-35 or the Zumwalt. Hell, there are things still classified about the SR-71 and that's 50 years old and retired.

^
I also wonder how good your chances of seeing the specs on the F-35 would be if you first held a knife at the desk clerk's throat.... 
;)

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It's also possible that Geordi's original plan to infect them with a destructive program might not have worked for the same reason the 'individualized' Borg weren't allowed to spread among the rest of the hive (and for the same reason they were without guidance and welcomed Lore as their savior); the other Borg would've spotted the irregularity and severed the link between that collective and the rest of the hive mind.   

Might not have worked, but he didn't even try. He put his own fragile feels ahead of, potentially billions of lives. That's what I can't stomach.

I can only imagine the reason that there wasn't an official standing order to destroy the single greatest threat facing the Federation if the opportunity arose before Hugh came along was because they never expected that a Captain wouldn't take it before his conscience.

Picard deserved worse than that bite on the backside that Necheyev gave him for it. It deserved a thorough shredding.

It was Starfleet policy to be kind to guests.  Khan was a 20th century Earth human.  Kirk at the time didn't have his identity and didn't have the inkling that Khan would do what he did.

'Kind to guests' is not, 'Here, study the guts of Stafleet's most advanced vessel.' If that information is that free and open to anyone, God help the Federation when a Klingon spy happens by with a good plastic surgeon and a sob story.

And, sure Kirk did. This man comes off as deliberately evasive instantly at first blush. Won't give his full name and the poor man becomes "fatigued" the moment you try to pin him down, the poor thing. But, here, have a look at the schematics of my ship.

There's a reason I can't walk into the Pentagon and demand to see all the specs for the F-35 or the Zumwalt. Hell, there are things still classified about the SR-71 and that's 50 years old and retired.

^
I also wonder how good your chances of seeing the specs on the F-35 would be if you first held a knife at the desk clerk's throat.... 
;)

Pretty sure I'd be too 'shot dead' to truly appreciate the plane's elegance. ;)

Then again, maybe Starfleet's policy is to show everyone anything.The non-aligned Gideons had a mock-up detailed enough to fool the Captain, so....

Edited by prometheus59650

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It's also possible that Geordi's original plan to infect them with a destructive program might not have worked for the same reason the 'individualized' Borg weren't allowed to spread among the rest of the hive (and for the same reason they were without guidance and welcomed Lore as their savior); the other Borg would've spotted the irregularity and severed the link between that collective and the rest of the hive mind.   

Might not have worked, but he didn't even try. He put his own fragile feels ahead of, potentially billions of lives. That's what I can't stomach.

I can only imagine the reason that there wasn't an official standing order to destroy the single greatest threat facing the Federation if the opportunity arose before Hugh came along was because they never expected that a Captain wouldn't take it before his conscience.

Picard deserved worse than that bite on the backside that Necheyev gave him for it. It deserved a thorough shredding.

It was Starfleet policy to be kind to guests.  Khan was a 20th century Earth human.  Kirk at the time didn't have his identity and didn't have the inkling that Khan would do what he did.

'Kind to guests' is not, 'Here, study the guts of Stafleet's most advanced vessel.' If that information is that free and open to anyone, God help the Federation when a Klingon spy happens by with a good plastic surgeon and a sob story.

And, sure Kirk did. This man comes off as deliberately evasive instantly at first blush. Won't give his full name and the poor man becomes "fatigued" the moment you try to pin him down, the poor thing. But, here, have a look at the schematics of my ship.

There's a reason I can't walk into the Pentagon and demand to see all the specs for the F-35 or the Zumwalt. Hell, there are things still classified about the SR-71 and that's 50 years old and retired.

^
I also wonder how good your chances of seeing the specs on the F-35 would be if you first held a knife at the desk clerk's throat.... 
;)

Pretty sure I'd be too 'shot dead' to truly appreciate the plane's elegance. ;)

Then again, maybe Starfleet's policy is to show everyone anything.The non-aligned Gideons had a mock-up detailed enough to fool the Captain, so....

^
The dangers of total transparency... take that, Julian Assange.  :giggle:

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There's a right way and a wrong way to address unauthorized computer access....

 

Unknown alien (Borg) intruder tries to access your ship's engineering computer?

qwho141.jpg

^  This happens.   Probably a good (even if ultimately futile) idea...

 

Revived sleeper from a violent period in Earth's history holds a knife to your CMO's throat, avoids answering even the simplest questions (such as full name), and then asks for the technical manuals to your ship:

"Here you go... knock yourself out."

Space_Seed_118.JPG

^  This would not be a good thing (see: rest of episode, The Wrath of Khan).

 

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Hell, Khan could and should have just let the crew suffocate. He's so smart. His comrades are so smart and they are out in the boondocks of space so it's probably days before Starfleet knows anything is off, and potentially weeks before anyone can go find them. Should be plenty of time for his supermen to catch up on things.

Then super dudes have control of one of the most powerful ships in the quadrant.

Kirk's screw up is monumental.

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