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prometheus59650

DS9: The Post 9.11 Star Trek

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Interesting article except that Deep Space Nine ended in June 1999, one year and six months before Sept 11. 2001.

If anything Enterprise with its Suliban (teliban) and Xindi (enemy caliphate like organization) was the post 9 11 Star Trek. It premiered in Sept. 2001 just weeks prior to the events of that incident, that led to the 'nation buildings' and the wars, and all that. Hopefully this does not go into the KM thread already. Enterprise used Starfleet itself as the force of 'nation building' and tried to steer clear of the Iraq and Afganistan wars parable most of the time. The Vulcans on Enterprise clearly mocked the highbrow GOP at the time, in control but contemptuous, sometimes brazen, which was not the Vulcans of the later shows. Starfleet represented a sort of NATO UN backed space force doing exploring out in the reaches until tossed into a war with a powerful time race and a powerful alien weapon, (WMDs), leading to their eventual need to use a time travel reset button, and a WW2 ancient aliens episode, to end that arc, and get the nation back on track. Time travel does not exist in our universe, so doing that to Sept 11 would have been kind of tacky on the show.

If anything, DS9 was the post fall of Eastern Europe parable following the cold war, which effectively had ended in 1991-92, abut when DS9 was in early production, for it's premiere in Jan 1993. Bajor is clearly a parable for some mid eastern country, possibly Isreal, (in it having a deep faith) but also for Russia and for the Baltic states (after the fall of Communism, the states split off and formed ' provisional governments'). It only appears to look like a mix of things so it would not offend anyone and lose ratings. The Cardassians were clearly fascists. The Bajorans were some kind of oppressed nation state following the pullout of the Cardassians.

The origins of Deep Space Nine in 1993 to 1999 are well documented beyond merely trekkie web sites, and you can easily access them, and interviews, online. It was a post Cold War arc. They spun it in a different direction than Meyer did in Trek VI but it was of similar cloth. Actually had the poster gone to memory alpha and checked the date, his article could not have existed, or been changed to talk about Enterprise instead. DS9 did not predict Sept 11 either. It was just an early conflict.

I bet someone who was only eight when it went off the air wrote that article without even googling the page on when the show actually started.

Not to be confused with the Carashians, who are unfortunately still in power. Lol.

Edited by Chimera82405

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Perhaps you missed in the article where the author makes it clear that DS9 preceded 9.11

The second paragraph:

In a sense, however, we did get a post-9/11 Star Trek; it just happened to air long before 11 September 2001. As blogger Darren Mooney states on TheM0vieblog, “Deep Space Nine arguably speaks perfectly to the War on Terror and post-9/11 anxieties.” The show proved eerily prescient about terrorism, religious extremism, and domestic surveillance.

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Interesting article except that Deep Space Nine ended in June 1999, one year and six months before Sept 11. 2001.

If anything Enterprise with its Suliban (teliban) and Xindi (enemy caliphate like organization) was the post 9 11 Star Trek. It premiered in Sept. 2001 just weeks prior to the events of that incident, that led to the 'nation buildings' and the wars, and all that. Hopefully this does not go into the KM thread already. Enterprise used Starfleet itself as the force of 'nation building' and tried to steer clear of the Iraq and Afganistan wars parable most of the time. The Vulcans on Enterprise clearly mocked the highbrow GOP at the time, in control but contemptuous, sometimes brazen, which was not the Vulcans of the later shows. Starfleet represented a sort of NATO UN backed space force doing exploring out in the reaches until tossed into a war with a powerful time race and a powerful alien weapon, (WMDs), leading to their eventual need to use a time travel reset button, and a WW2 ancient aliens episode, to end that arc, and get the nation back on track. Time travel does not exist in our universe, so doing that to Sept 11 would have been kind of tacky on the show.

If anything, DS9 was the post fall of Eastern Europe parable following the cold war, which effectively had ended in 1991-92, abut when DS9 was in early production, for it's premiere in Jan 1993. Bajor is clearly a parable for some mid eastern country, possibly Isreal, (in it having a deep faith) but also for Russia and for the Baltic states (after the fall of Communism, the states split off and formed ' provisional governments'). It only appears to look like a mix of things so it would not offend anyone and lose ratings. The Cardassians were clearly fascists. The Bajorans were some kind of oppressed nation state following the pullout of the Cardassians.

I bet someone who was only eight when it went off the air wrote that article without even googling the page on when the show actually started.

Not to be confused with the Carashians, who are unfortunately still in power. Lol.

From the article (which I'm not sure if you read):

In a sense, however, we did get a post-9/11 Star Trek; it just happened to air long before 11 September 2001.

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Yes it did those things too, but terrorism has always been a problem somewhere. It anything the DS9 people were thinking of the stuff going on after the cold war, and possibly the IRA bombings, and the massacre in Serbia. They were not predicting anything so much as using history to think forward about what something might be like elsewhere. They didn't use an event that could not have happened yet, to my point. It was not ahead of its time. It was merely making some guesses based on how human behave, and that made some shows that were excellent parables. After all, if anything a displaced Palestine could also be Bajor, and Isreal to them could be the invaders. That was going on since the 1940s. It still is. Bajor was clearly more Isreal than it was Afganistan.

The article premise 'a post Sept 11 story before Sept 11, inferring time travel and ex post facto guessing, is not logical, but whoever said humans were logical. :)

Edited by Chimera82405

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Yes it did those things too, but terrorism has always been a problem somewhere. It anything the DS9 people were thinking of the stuff going on after the cold war, and possibly the IRA bombings, and the massacre in Serbia. They were not predicting anything so much as using history to think forward about what something might be like elsewhere. They didn't use an event that could not have happened yet, to my point. It was not ahead of its time. It was merely making some guesses based on how human behave, and that made some shows that were excellent parables. After all, if anything a displaced Palestine could also be Bajor, and Isreal to them could be the invaders. That was going on since the 1940s. It still is. Bajor was clearly more Isreal than it was Afganistan.

 

I took Bajor as sort of representing oppressed or disenfranchised peoples everywhere, not just Jews.  I think they were meant to be Armenians, or the rebel Kurds, or any/many peoples.  I think one could also make a case for Bajorans  as surrogates for native Americans; a strongly spiritual people who were overtaken by a foreign industrial power(s); the invading Europeans, for example. 

I really think that in the context of the article,  Bajor could also stand for Libya, Afghanistan or even Iraq.  A fallen nation, with various foreign factions offering their 'help' and who have made things worse (either accidentally or by design). 

Major Kira's terrorist past is a strong foreshadowing of various middle eastern "freedom fighters" (as they see themselves), and how we will have to someday deal with these people at a bargaining table, whatever our personal views on terrorism.   One people's terrorist is another's liberator or martyr. 

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Yes it did those things too, but terrorism has always been a problem somewhere. It anything the DS9 people were thinking of the stuff going on after the cold war, and possibly the IRA bombings, and the massacre in Serbia. They were not predicting anything so much as using history to think forward about what something might be like elsewhere. They didn't use an event that could not have happened yet, to my point. It was not ahead of its time. It was merely making some guesses based on how human behave, and that made some shows that were excellent parables. After all, if anything a displaced Palestine could also be Bajor, and Isreal to them could be the invaders. That was going on since the 1940s. It still is. Bajor was clearly more Isreal than it was Afganistan.

 

I took Bajor as sort of representing oppressed or disenfranchised peoples everywhere, not just Jews.  I think they were meant to be Armenians, or the rebel Kurds, or any/many peoples.  I think one could also make a case for Bajorans  as surrogates for native Americans; a strongly spiritual people who were overtaken by a foreign industrial power(s); the invading Europeans, for example. 

I really think that in the context of the article,  Bajor could also stand for Libya, Afghanistan or even Iraq.  A fallen nation, with various foreign factions offering their 'help' and who have made things worse (either accidentally or by design). 

Major Kira's terrorist past is a strong foreshadowing of various middle eastern "freedom fighters" (as they see themselves), and how we will have to someday deal with these people at a bargaining table, whatever our personal views on terrorism.   One people's terrorist is another's liberator or martyr. 

I agree with this. Bajor really really is the fallen nation. Even as far back as TNGs "Ensign Ro" they talk repeatedly about how advanced Bajor once was. (like the arab world centuries ago) Now Bajor is broken and impoverished and it is to the Federation to assist Bajor in finding itself again.

The article premise 'a post Sept 11 story before Sept 11, inferring time travel and ex post facto guessing, is not logical, but whoever said humans were logical.

I don't think you read the article at all. Nowhere in it is it implying time travel. The premise of the article is, "The series pre-dated 9.11 by years, yet, in its storytelling, it effectively addressed things like nation-building and the nuances of terrorism in ways that we can learn from today" Then it lays out examples.

Nowhere is the article implying anything else.

 

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I like the thread but the headline threw me. Yeah it kind of does work for that, and more so for the final stirrings of the cold war. The allusion is okay. It's comparable to Sept 11, and he's not in hindsight saying it was predicted or time travel, which on closer reading was mistakenly read as something it wasn't, but it was not the 'intent of he producers' to mirror an event that hadn't happened, but rather a reflection on events that had.

Bajor was not intended to be Palestine or the Afgans, but either could kind of fit. The Afganis were having a war then too. If they were native Americans, that makes the Federation what? Cardassia is the invading Europeans then? That makes int more like the cold war to me, and the fall of the Berlin wall being where things changed for them. It has a little of that also.

Although in Enterprise, the Zindi WMD attack, swath across Florida angle was clearly supposed to be Sept 11.

Great topic though! I just think Enterprise also did a war, but not as well as DS9 did it.

The Ferengi are American studio executives, clearly. Heh.

Where do the Dominion fit in this scenario? They're not religiously grounded so they're not fanatical in some kind of comparison to say the Taliban. They use the white but they do not worship it. They do think of the Founders as gods though, or their creators, as literally they are, but they aren't really gods and surely they know this. So their 'religion' is not so much a faith but a cult like thing.

The WMD/Iraq/Iran thing could totally be Cardassians, or to some extent the Founders. They're clearly some sort of space nazis or fascists and only follow the state.

What then is Starfleet in this? They aren't really the ones that conquered Bajor again. They aren't occupying it ala Afganistan today.

Does that make the Ferengi the Saudis?

So some of it doesn't quite match but it's fun to speculate.

So is Kira a reflection of Sadam or Osama?

Sisko is obviously Bush then, and not Barack. How confusing! Ha.

Edited by Chimera82405

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I think the bigger conclusion that can be reached is ... the themes of a post 9/11 world have existed before 9/11 and sadly continue to repeat in a destructive cycle. It's why DS9 appeared to be oddly prescient about politics/social matters.

The perfect thing about DS9 is ... it came at the perfect time. A show like DS9 would not be tolerated by both sides of the aisle today and unlikely to last 7 seasons.

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I think the bigger conclusion that can be reached is ... the themes of a post 9/11 world have existed before 9/11 and sadly continue to repeat in a destructive cycle. It's why DS9 appeared to be oddly prescient about politics/social matters.

The perfect thing about DS9 is ... it came at the perfect time. A show like DS9 would not be tolerated by both sides of the aisle today and unlikely to last 7 seasons.

Primarily because DS9, particularly with the terrorism threads, the show attempted to understand the other side.

No room for that in America, 2016.

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I think the bigger conclusion that can be reached is ... the themes of a post 9/11 world have existed before 9/11 and sadly continue to repeat in a destructive cycle. It's why DS9 appeared to be oddly prescient about politics/social matters.

The perfect thing about DS9 is ... it came at the perfect time. A show like DS9 would not be tolerated by both sides of the aisle today and unlikely to last 7 seasons.

Primarily because DS9, particularly with the terrorism threads, the show attempted to understand the other side.

No room for that in America, 2016.

Indeed. There is no way that Kira, a former "terrorist" depicted as a good guy would be tolerated. It would appear (to some) as "propaganda" to humanize ISIS or something.

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I think the bigger conclusion that can be reached is ... the themes of a post 9/11 world have existed before 9/11 and sadly continue to repeat in a destructive cycle. It's why DS9 appeared to be oddly prescient about politics/social matters.

The perfect thing about DS9 is ... it came at the perfect time. A show like DS9 would not be tolerated by both sides of the aisle today and unlikely to last 7 seasons.

Primarily because DS9, particularly with the terrorism threads, the show attempted to understand the other side.

No room for that in America, 2016.

Indeed. There is no way that Kira, a former "terrorist" depicted as a good guy would be tolerated. It would appear (to some) as "propaganda" to humanize ISIS or something.

^
Exactly that... sadly.   A former terrorist as an exec wouldn't go over at all in post-9/11 America.  Kind of a shame.   It's also interesting that Kira's experiences AS a terrorist often came in handy on the show; her experiences (whatever one's views on terrorism) proved an asset; those deadly skills are what helped liberate Cardassia in the series' finale.   Ironic indeed!

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I think the bigger conclusion that can be reached is ... the themes of a post 9/11 world have existed before 9/11 and sadly continue to repeat in a destructive cycle. It's why DS9 appeared to be oddly prescient about politics/social matters.

The perfect thing about DS9 is ... it came at the perfect time. A show like DS9 would not be tolerated by both sides of the aisle today and unlikely to last 7 seasons.

Primarily because DS9, particularly with the terrorism threads, the show attempted to understand the other side.

No room for that in America, 2016.

Indeed. There is no way that Kira, a former "terrorist" depicted as a good guy would be tolerated. It would appear (to some) as "propaganda" to humanize ISIS or something.

The only way audiences today would tolerate it is if Kira basically stopped being Bajoran. She'd have to have seen the light and embraced the divine righteousness of the Federation and renounce, not only her terrorist past, but her 'backward' heritage. 

Viewers now would be fine with her past, if she spent the entire series as a mouthpiece that wanted nothing more than to be like them.

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I think the bigger conclusion that can be reached is ... the themes of a post 9/11 world have existed before 9/11 and sadly continue to repeat in a destructive cycle. It's why DS9 appeared to be oddly prescient about politics/social matters.

The perfect thing about DS9 is ... it came at the perfect time. A show like DS9 would not be tolerated by both sides of the aisle today and unlikely to last 7 seasons.

Primarily because DS9, particularly with the terrorism threads, the show attempted to understand the other side.

No room for that in America, 2016.

Indeed. There is no way that Kira, a former "terrorist" depicted as a good guy would be tolerated. It would appear (to some) as "propaganda" to humanize ISIS or something.

The only way audiences today would tolerate it is if Kira basically stopped being Bajoran. She'd have to have seen the light and embraced the divine righteousness of the Federation and renounce, not only her terrorist past, but her 'backward' heritage. 

Viewers now would be fine with her past, if she spent the entire series as a mouthpiece that wanted nothing more than to be like them.

Pretty much, yeah.

Plus all the other aspects of it - the war, religion, a few episodes on immigration or being an "outsider".

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Terrorist or not, I find Kira one of the most irritating characters to watch on TV ever. From her religious fanaticism, over her self righteous attitude, to her overbearing seriousness and immediate hostility towards everthing that does not meet her bajoran expectatians of how the world is supposed to work. Win was simply your run of the mill ruthless politician, but Kira just kept annoying me and I would not have minded seeing her take a hit from a GH-Rifle. Though she did improve somewhat through the seasons, the Hands of the Prophets eppisode alone was enough to make sure I would never like her.

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Terrorist or not, I find Kira one of the most irritating characters to watch on TV ever. From her religious fanaticism, over her self righteous attitude, to her overbearing seriousness and immediate hostility towards everthing that does not meet her bajoran expectatians of how the world is supposed to work. Win was simply your run of the mill ruthless politician, but Kira just kept annoying me and I would not have minded seeing her take a hit from a GH-Rifle. Though she did improve somewhat through the seasons, the Hands of the Prophets eppisode alone was enough to make sure I would never like her.

You do realize that she had something of a hard life, right?  That her temperament was forged in her lifetime spent of liberating her planet from the Cardassians?   I think, given her circumstances, her attitude and the way she was played were about right.    And how was her militant attitude and confrontational bearing any different from, say, Worf?    Was it because she wasn't 'feminine' enough perhaps?

 

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 From her religious fanaticism,

She was 'faithful' and constantly struggled to define what that meant for her given her own past. She wasn't fanatical about it. Had she been, I think she would have been more closely aligned to Winn than she was.

, over her self righteous attitude, to her overbearing seriousness and immediate hostility towards everthing that does not meet her bajoran expectatians of how the world is supposed to work

So, after decades of Cardassian raping and pillaging of Bajor, when they showed up "as friends," too, Kira is supposed simply jump for joy and embrace a Federation when at best, there's no reason to believe that they will ever leave? At worst, it's easy to see a LOT of Bajorans upset that the Federation now steps in to 'help' when, while Bajorans were being raped and murdered on Bajor, or treated like pariahs all over the galaxy, the Federation was nowhere to be found unless, like "Ensign Ro" and providing blankets for the camp, there was something in it for them at the end of the day. 

 Win was simply your run of the mill ruthless politician

She was a fundamentalist fanatic, not Kira.

   And how was her militant attitude and confrontational bearing any different from, say, Worf?    Was it because she wasn't 'feminine' enough perhaps?

 That's more common than we'd like to think.

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Sorry but if you are okay with the implementation of a cast system that establishes the class  based oppression of large parts of an entire people, not to mention relives you of your own choices regarding your life, just because a religious leader says so, you are a fanatic in my book.

Also when you try to shield children from actual scientific knowledge because it infringes on your faith I would not like to refer to your judgement on any matter of importance. 

Further growing up in harsh conditions may explain why someone turned out rather unlikable, but does not change the fact that one did.

Edited by Grand Nagus

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Further growing up in harsh conditions may explain why someone turned out rather unlikable, but does not change the fact that one did.

In the same way that saying she's unlikable only means that she is to you.

Never mind that it wasn't as though Kira embraced the caste system idea. She showed at many points that she was uncomfortable with the idea. Indeed, she tells Sisko so, but that she's trying to adjust because the Emissary asked it of them. As an atheist, I think it's all nonsense, but I don't begrudge Kira or call her a fanatic because she's at least initially attempting to adhere to the tenants of her faith.

Also when you try to shield children from actual scientific knowledge because it infringes on your faith I would not like to refer to your judgement on any matter of importance. 

And some of that science/faith schism, you can lay squarely at the feet of Keiko "Being a teacher is always something I wanted to try, like, you know, brain surgery or something" O'Brien. So much for her working on a broad curriculum that takes in all of the beliefs and addresses the diversity of her students.

Winn was goinna start something because she had grand plans, but Keiko made it nice and easy. 

Edited by prometheus59650

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Further growing up in harsh conditions may explain why someone turned out rather unlikable, but does not change the fact that one did.

In the same way that saying she's unlikable only means that she is to you.

Never mind that it wasn't as though Kira embraced the caste system idea. She showed at many points that she was uncomfortable with the idea. Indeed, she tells Sisko so, but that she's trying to adjust because the Emissary asked it of them. As an atheist, I think it's all nonsense, but I don't begrudge Kira or call her a fanatic because she's at least initially attempting to adhere to the tenants of her faith.

Also when you try to shield children from actual scientific knowledge because it infringes on your faith I would not like to refer to your judgement on any matter of importance. 

And some of that science/faith schism, you can lay squarely at the feet of Keiko "Being a teacher is always something I wanted to try, like, you know, brain surgery or something" O'Brien. So much for her working on a broad curriculum that takes in all of the beliefs and addresses the diversity of her students.

Winn was goinna start something because she had grand plans, but Keiko made it nice and easy. 

OK, let's table this one for the Kobayashi Maru section...

 

Sorry but if you are okay with the implementation of a cast system that establishes the class  based oppression of large parts of an entire people, not to mention relives you of your own choices regarding your life, just because a religious leader says so, you are a fanatic in my book.

Also when you try to shield children from actual scientific knowledge because it infringes on your faith I would not like to refer to your judgement on any matter of importance. 

Further growing up in harsh conditions may explain why someone turned out rather unlikable, but does not change the fact that one did.

And FYI, Grand Nagus, our Kobayashi Maru section is where he talk about hot button topics such as religion, politics, etc.  But you have to accrue 200 posts to get there.  It's our way of keeping the trolls out.  We can discuss those things in the regular forums as well, but we have to be respectful and sensitive to other opinions beyond our own.   That's one of our little secrets to keeping OS at Trekcore an open forum for ALL opinions.   :)

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Locutus   

DS9 was not only prescient, it was profoundly prescient.  The story mashes different pieces of brutal human history together, pieces unfortunately, that are too often repeated.  The episodes that most come to mind are "Homefront" and "Paradise Lost."  O'Brien's speech about fear destroying civilization resonates more in the Post-9/11 world.  The changeling threat became a poignant metaphor for McCarthyism paranoia and fear.  

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DS9 was not only prescient, it was profoundly prescient.  The story mashes different pieces of brutal human history together, pieces unfortunately, that are too often repeated.  The episodes that most come to mind are "Homefront" and "Paradise Lost."  O'Brien's speech about fear destroying civilization resonates more in the Post-9/11 world.  The changeling threat became a poignant metaphor for McCarthyism paranoia and fear.  

The changeling threat is more relevant than ever considering how paranoid everyone in the US is with Muslims these days; they've become the new 'boogie-men' for everyone to hang all of their fears onto, just like the '50s with the communists.   And just like the changelings, you had only four of them sending the Earth's population into a panic; just as one radical Islamic terrorist will make the entire US angry and fearful at the billions of Muslims who practice their religion without harming anyone.  

"Homefront" and "Paradise Lost" remind me much more of 2016 than of 1996.

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