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prometheus59650

Why Star Wars Beats Star Trek.

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Better than Worf ever was. Personally I'd rather have my dad not around at all, then to pawn me off on my grandparents, be forced to take responsibility for me by my grandmother. Then, after mostly a grumbling while, he sends me off to them again. Then, I apparently don't see him for years and, when I do, he just tells me to suck up his ****ty parenthood.

But that's just me. 

^
True.

Especially since Alexander's mother was killed (and he saw her bloodied body, for goodness' sake!).   So yeah, what does Worf do?  Pawn him off on his aged parents.   Even when he got a relatively stable assignment on DS9, did he get Alexander to live with him?  Nope.   In fact, Alexander is pretty much MIA on DS9 until he shows up as a young adult serving in the Klingon Defense Force (!).

Kirk was never around, and Worf is a terrible dad.  
Hate to judge, but as fathers go?  Both of those men are horrible.

Sisko, on the other hand; exemplary father.   Makes homemade meals for his son, helps him with his studies, takes him solar sailing, and still finds time to run one of the busiest space stations in the quadrant.   Probably the single best father (or the best single father) we've ever seen on Star Trek...

Arguably Star Wars fathers weren't much better...

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As someone who has a "bit" of childhood/adolescence experience in these matters, I can safely say that a father like Kirk who isn't really there much is STILL way better than a father like Worf who ACTIVELY pushes his own kid away over and over again and makes no effort whatsoever to understand him because he doesn't want him/doesn't care about him and royally screws him up that way, making him feel unloved, unwelcome and basically like nothing but garbage (or the Klingon equivalent of it).

Besides, if I remember correctly, Kirk was explicitly told by Carol Marcus to stay away from David. And she also never told David that Kirk is his father. I mean what was Kirk supposed to do? I believe he even expresses anger at her for forcing him to stay away, I think he makes a remark about what his life could have been if he had been allowed near David. Therefore... why assume he'd be a bad father? Of course he wouldn't reach Sisko levels (or Jean-Luc/Kamin "Inner Light" levels), he doesn't live on a space station with his son and he would have had to rely a lot on just messages and all, but I believe he still would have tried to be there, in whichever way he could.

Also, he was all over Miramanee when she told him she was pregnant. I mean really. Why think he'd be so bad at it? I'm just wondering. He seemed to love David very much - after all, his death made him so bitter that he hated the Klingons for killing him for years and years.

tl;dr: I'd say Worf is about a ZILLION times worse as a father than Kirk could have ever been.

I agree with this all around. They might have both ended up as absentee fathers, even if Kirk could have known, but, to Worf, Alexander was an obvious, bitter weight around his neck. All Worf ever cared about is Worf. For all his talk about personal honor and the likelihood that he'd snarl and threaten to kill you if you questioned his feelings for K'ehlyr, he sure as hell dishonored her memory by repeatedly treating their child like garbage.

Hell, the most fatherly time he ever had with young Alexander was "A Fistful of Datas," and even then he spends the cold open almost literally begging Picard for something to do so he doesn't have to spend time with the kid.  

Worf was, frankly, an abusive, trash father, and it's one of the reasons I hate the character.

Thank you for saying this. You said it more clearly than I ever could. 

I sometimes have a very hard time watching the episodes with Worf and Alexander. He's so horrible towards the poor boy. It's incredibly triggering. (It also does NOT help that Alexander happens to be MY name as well.) And I agree - everyone is always like "it's so cute how they're on the holodeck as sheriff and deputy" but I'm just always sitting there like "yeah but what about Worf BEGGING FOR WORK so that he doesn't have to go". It's so dreadfully familiar, this "I hate spending time with this brat, do I have to, ugh really ah well meh, what a terrible day" attitude.

I'm REALLY so glad I'm not the only one who is constantly horrified by Worf's abusive behavior towards his son.

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^
One has to wonder how Worf's treating his own son like a neglected sack of potting soil is 'honorable.'  

When asked for comment, Worf responded, "Well, I'm umm...being honorable. Yes. Yes, I am. I'm trying to toughen him up...teach him what it means to be Klingon."

Yet, I somehow can't imagine Martok behaving in the same way.

Martok was the Klingon Worf always pretended to be.

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One has to wonder how Worf's treating his own son like a neglected sack of potting soil is 'honorable.'  

When asked for comment, Worf responded, "Well, I'm umm...being honorable. Yes. Yes, I am. I'm trying to toughen him up...teach him what it means to be Klingon."

Yet, I somehow can't imagine Martok behaving in the same way.

Martok was the Klingon Worf always pretended to be.

We don't really know how Klingons raise their children. Worf could be a typical Klingon or maybe not. But he was raised by humans and so was his son so he should know enough to try to act a little better.  

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^
One has to wonder how Worf's treating his own son like a neglected sack of potting soil is 'honorable.'  

When asked for comment, Worf responded, "Well, I'm umm...being honorable. Yes. Yes, I am. I'm trying to toughen him up...teach him what it means to be Klingon."

Yet, I somehow can't imagine Martok behaving in the same way.

Martok was the Klingon Worf always pretended to be.

We don't really know how Klingons raise their children. Worf could be a typical Klingon or maybe not. But he was raised by humans and so was his son so he should know enough to try to act a little better.  

He's not a typical Klingon, and he overcompensated for that by trying to 'Klingon up' his son when even HE wasn't 'Klingon' enough to be able to sit in a room full of them comfortably.

No, we don't know how Klingons raise their children, it's safe to say that, since Worf spends every moment of his life trying to be a typical Klingon and fails miserably at pretty much every turn, it's probably NOT done the way Worf does it.

Worf was always soft and mushy to the Rozhenkos, but treated the Klingon side of his family in consistently shabby fashion. Both Alexander and Kurn suffered often because Worf's only concern is Worf.

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One has to wonder how Worf's treating his own son like a neglected sack of potting soil is 'honorable.'  

When asked for comment, Worf responded, "Well, I'm umm...being honorable. Yes. Yes, I am. I'm trying to toughen him up...teach him what it means to be Klingon."

Yet, I somehow can't imagine Martok behaving in the same way.

Martok was the Klingon Worf always pretended to be.

We don't really know how Klingons raise their children. Worf could be a typical Klingon or maybe not. But he was raised by humans and so was his son so he should know enough to try to act a little better.  

He's not a typical Klingon, and he overcompensated for that by trying to 'Klingon up' his son when even HE wasn't 'Klingon' enough to be able to sit in a room full of them comfortably.

No, we don't know how Klingons raise their children, it's safe to say that, since Worf spends every moment of his life trying to be a typical Klingon and fails miserably at pretty much every turn, it's probably NOT done the way Worf does it.

Worf was always soft and mushy to the Rozhenkos, but treated the Klingon side of his family in consistently shabby fashion. Both Alexander and Kurn suffered often because Worf's only concern is Worf.

He's probably doing what he thinks a Klingon should do without any real idea of what he should do. He clearly doesn't want to be a father and puts little or no effort into it. He's just working on emotion without bothering to spend any time thinking about what he really should do. That doesn't make it any better. 

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He clearly doesn't want to be a father and puts little or no effort into it. He's just working on emotion without bothering to spend any time thinking about what he really should do. That doesn't make it any better. 

And I can make a really good argument (from my own life as well as friends) that this is actually more painful and abusive than just being out of the picture period.    

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They kind of addressed the bad parenting thing in that episode where future Alexander was a mess and traveled back into time to try to change his destiny. Yeah, you' think with there being an actual counselor on board the ship, she would totally notice that Worf was merely a donor, not a daddy. Maybe the Roz agreed to take him in because they were like, oh our Son Worf is not good parent material.

Alexander was not a young adult in that DS9 episode on the ship. He was conceived and somehow born in the second season of TNG, if we assume he was a b two when Kehlyer died a year later, in Klingon years. Biologically he was Eight! You could say Klingons age faster and it was like he was 16, (as at a convention Bob Justman said), but clearly he was eight emotionally and had no business at tactical on a ship just yet. Even Dax who was 300 or so should have seen that.

He was born in 2366 and yet in this episode we see him, he is acting as a four year old, (because the actor was about that), and that is where they got the age thing. In 2374 he joins the Klingon defense force. (Memory Alpha).  He is literally EIGHT. That is pretty impressive. How many eight year olds can serve on a starship. (It's not impressive because he does a bad job, because he is Eight).

Dax makes no attempt to take him in either, as Worf's wife, (or soon to be), and she doesn't even bring it up that he's a boy, as though he is supposedly over, like he's in his teens. Si clearly she doesn't find this unusual among Klingons.

Even so, Worf as a 'donor father' (as in he just provided the DNA) is more accurate, as he never wanted it, never respected it, but got stuck with a kid. That is one messed up kid.

Some quote a while back on the web said, "It's easy to be a Father, but hard to be a Dad". No excuse for Worf though with all those friends around that could have told him.

My parents did their best so it's fine by me, even if at times I was left to watch TV after school until they got back from work (Silicon Valley, ah the 1980s). It was usually Star Trek VHS tapes, so I turned out all right. :)

And endless cartoons.

I my teen years, it was like TNG was some kind of guide also, but a little more manic as Picard never acted like Kirk.

Kirk was a total cat, so I suspect Carol Marcus never wanted him around, knowing he would probably be gone in the morning. He was a donor.

Star Wars fathers are worse!

Darth Vader/Anakin is a psychopath who from the earliest 'prequel' canon randomly goes ape and has fits of power and hangs out with that creepy Palpataine. His vengeful betrysl of the light side of the force was so messed up that surely as a 'donor' he would have mad a terrible actual Father.

Han Solo and Leia totally acknowledge Han was a bad parent as they sent him off to hang out with his Uncle Luke, who was probably like, what? I don't know how to raise a kid!

Actually it appears Star Trek just has a hard time with relationships in general. The male heroes usually hook up in some episodes, only to have their lovers die! That's messed up. Riker, Kirk, Worf, etc. Riker probably would have made an okay father in the series though. Many episodes hinted at that. Kirk, not so much. Worf, ugh. Oh yeah, and Sisko was a good Father.

"Luke, I am your Father!"

"Yeah, but where were you for the last 18 years, you slacker!"

"But I was ruling the Death Star and stuff. Gimme a break."

 

STAR TREK is Wagon Train, Gunsmoke, Bonzana, in space, and can be 'space opera' and can be cerebral. Tholse old western shows had little morals at the end, were sometimes heavy handed, and were often expressions of the time. They were golden age but somewhat dated. Trek survives best as episodes on TV and struggles a bit as movies, where the medium requires they be more about space villains and defeating some obvious force.

STAR WARS is the spaghetti western of space, the Ninja cowboys with swords meets the Castle/Fortress story, the don't think too hard about it tale. It is not really a Space Opera. It would be more like a Musical. from the golden age, with trappings of Buck Rogers and other stuff mixed in. It is the popcorn fun flick, shut off the brain angle of fantasy scifi. Star Wars could not work well as a TV story arc, except in cartoons, because it lacks the cohesiveness of an arc. It tries to make one up, but you can tell that even their own continuity really isn't all that important as long as the story looks flashy.

Spaghetti western, a type of old western movie that was silly just for fun, had some moral but usually it was white hat versus black hat. Sometimes they were not silly, but usually they were simple.

I would say that The Motion Picture was Space Opera.

Parts of The Force Awakens were space opera, lowercase, and even Star Trek V was.

Although Bonanza pretty much is a spaghetti western.

They're just different creatures. Trek is more thought provoking, wordy, with important themes. Wars are more emotional, with some basic important themes, but usually it's about cool looking things getting blown up, and super wizard people with glowing swords. Both can be cool.

Trek does do adventure though. Most of the movies were adventures. TWOK is a submarine battle. FC is a kill the zombie movie set on a ship, TUC was spy thriller with some cold war trappings. Nem was a copy of TWOK, as was ID. Trek 09 was a remake of Nem. Beyond was kind of a remake of Ent's finale.

It's not likely that SW could do a story where they were exploring some vast area of space for hours. Trek can do that on autopilot.

Trek could probably not do a story about plasma sword wizards with special powers, although that would have been a cool crossover nod had they done that in the Q continuum instead of civil war muskets.

Actually why haven't theyu done a Star Trek meets Star Wars actual comic? Fans have done it, but get on it, IDW, a crossover where Han and Luke and co meet up with Kirk.

"Captain, he appear to be wielding an energy sword that defies all known physics."

"Spock, what is he?"

"I ma not certain, but he is life, Jim, but not as we know it."

"Darn it, Spock. I'm a Doctor not a Jedi."

 

 

 

Edited by Chimera82405

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 How many eight year olds can serve on a starship. (It's not impressive because he does a bad job, because he is Eight).

Show me in canon where 'Klingon' 8 is actually analogous to Human 8.

 Kirk was a total cat, so I suspect Carol Marcus never wanted him around, knowing he would probably be gone in the morning. He was a donor.

 She explained it:

"Were we together? Were we going to be? You had your world and I had mine, and I wanted him in mine, not chasing across the universe with his father."

For all of his history, I think Kirk wasn't a straight up 'donor.' He was happy with Miramanee. Part of him wanted a relationship. Part of him wanted a family. And, where his attractions don't work out, it's not because he's catting around as much as it is wanderlust. He needed to be in that chair. He needed to be chasing across the galaxy in command. He couldn't make himself stop clearly when there was a part of him that wanted to.

Any way you cut it, you'll never convince me that Kirk would have been the father Worf was. I doubt a child would have tied him down much, but I feel confident that what contact there would be, whether letters or occasional leaves or whatever else would have been positive contact.  

In short, I can't imagine Kirk, under any circumstance, treating a young David the way Worf treated Alexander.

 

Edited by prometheus59650

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 How many eight year olds can serve on a starship. (It's not impressive because he does a bad job, because he is Eight).

Show me in canon where 'Klingon' 8 is actually analogous to Human 8.

 Kirk was a total cat, so I suspect Carol Marcus never wanted him around, knowing he would probably be gone in the morning. He was a donor.

 She explained it:

"Were we together? Were we going to be? You had your world and I had mine, and I wanted him in mine, not chasing across the universe with his father."

For all of his history, I think Kirk wasn't a straight up 'donor.' He was happy with Miramanee. Part of him wanted a relationship. Part of him wanted a family. And, where his attractions don't work out, it's not because he's catting around as much as it is wanderlust. He needed to be in that chair. He needed to be chasing across the galaxy in command. He couldn't make himself stop clearly when there was a part of him that wanted to.

Any way you cut it, you'll never convince me that Kirk would have been the father Work was. I doubt a child would have tied him down much, but I feel confident that what contact there would be, whether letters or occasional leaves or whatever else would have been positive contact.  

In short, I can't imagine Kirk, under any circumstance, treating a young David the way Worf treated Alexander.

 

I get the feeling that Kirk could have been a good father later in life once the wanderlust died down a bit. He always had a soft tender side to him. 

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 How many eight year olds can serve on a starship. (It's not impressive because he does a bad job, because he is Eight).

Show me in canon where 'Klingon' 8 is actually analogous to Human 8.

 Kirk was a total cat, so I suspect Carol Marcus never wanted him around, knowing he would probably be gone in the morning. He was a donor.

 She explained it:

"Were we together? Were we going to be? You had your world and I had mine, and I wanted him in mine, not chasing across the universe with his father."

For all of his history, I think Kirk wasn't a straight up 'donor.' He was happy with Miramanee. Part of him wanted a relationship. Part of him wanted a family. And, where his attractions don't work out, it's not because he's catting around as much as it is wanderlust. He needed to be in that chair. He needed to be chasing across the galaxy in command. He couldn't make himself stop clearly when there was a part of him that wanted to.

Any way you cut it, you'll never convince me that Kirk would have been the father Work was. I doubt a child would have tied him down much, but I feel confident that what contact there would be, whether letters or occasional leaves or whatever else would have been positive contact.  

In short, I can't imagine Kirk, under any circumstance, treating a young David the way Worf treated Alexander.

 

I get the feeling that Kirk could have been a good father later in life once the wanderlust died down a bit. He always had a soft tender side to him. 

I agree. Fatherhood at the, maybe, TVH part of his life? Probably ready for it and would have been great at it.

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Star Wars, to me, is basically about adventures in space, with a fantasy element at its core. I feel like the fantasy element, and how they approach that, is the real strength of the series, which is probably why I'm not a big fan of the first film, while I really like ESB. It's not because of the famous twist, although that's neat. It's because of Luke's training with Yoda, and how everything suddenly expands into this kind of mysticism, with light and dark, meditation, confronting the vision in the cave, etc. Well, also the cool saber duels. That's what separates SW from the average SF, to me. Aside from that element, the pacing doesn't always work for me, and it can actually feel quite simplistic and thin at times. Some of the dialogue in the prequels is...not very good. (I'm thinking of a particular scene between Anakin and Padme in AotC.)

It's harder to talk about Trek as a whole, because there are different versions. Trek does have an idealistic heart, like SW, but it's more interested in exploring science fiction ideas, and trying to look at morality in more detail. (Although DS9 likes to emphasise character material too.)

Personally, I like them both. At first I only liked SW, then I started preferring Trek. These days I probably still prefer Trek, but still enjoy SW.

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I hate comparing them, because other than having "Star" in their titles, they're wildly different franchises.    I've never understood the need to make them compete with each other; why do they have to?   I love both, but for different reasons.   Star Trek stimulates the mind, Star Wars stimulates the adrenal glands. Sometimes each do a little bit of the other.  For me, there's plenty of room for both...

Oh, and there's also plenty of room for "Doctor Who" "Planet of the Apes" "The Prisoner" "Twilight Zone" and many others too....;)

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