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kenman

Beyond - Spoilers Allowed Discussion

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kenman   

As Vie pointed out, good idea to have a place to discuss Beyond in which spoilers are allowed to roam free. Because I am getting tired and pasting my link is easier than rehashing my thoughts...I will throw my review here, which does have spoilers in it.

http://honeyfuggletrek.blogspot.com/2016/07/the-frontier-pushes-back.html

I just thought I'd kick the thread off.  No need to read my long winded review, but if anyone has points they'd like to discuss, here's a good place to do it without the worry of spoiling it for others. 

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Dilandu   

Oh, at least!

My humble opinion about the new movie (just watched it today): a bit mixed. The first part seems too jerky and not well developed. But close to the middle, the situation improved quite a lot, and the final was excellent.

The good:

- The new cast is significantly close to their TOS personalities than in first two movies) The whole subplot with Kirk decision to leave "Enterprise" (and his eventual rethinking) helped a lot to reconcile his character with TOS original.

- The humor improved greatly. Both in quantity and quality.

- The planetary scenes are quite good, almost all of them. Really liked the Jaylah character: she and Scotty are the perfect working pair) The attack on Bad Guys camp looks and worked really good: the Bad Guys lost not because they were stupid of careless, but because the good guys really outsmarted them, and the bad guys were caught in their own too-tight timing.

- All scenes with USS "Franklin" are just awesome! She is a old, outdated ship, but the old, outdated ship that saves the day - with her polarized hull plates, pulse cannons and THE POWER OF MUSIC!!! She worked perfectly in all her appearances - from hilarious ski-jump start to the awesome flight through the starbase.

- The short scene with Sulu family is just... touching. Really touching. And the later scene with Spock and the photo of TOS team... sad and beautiful connection between series.

- The final battle is fast, enjoyable, and well-shown.

The neutral:

- The whole Spock-Uhura line seems just a bit... far-fetched and not really tied to the rest of the plot. On the other hands, it isn't bad-played, definitedly.

The bad:

- The Main Bad Guy is... just too mundane. His backstory isn't really great and not very original (maybe something was lost in translation, of course... our russian translators are unfortunately quite bad since 1990s). Basically it's "they-left-me-behind-so-I-would-gone-crazy-and-show-them-all". No particular reason from Krall to hate Federation were shown. J.J. Abrams could do more - like make him the former Romulan prisoner, who hoped that the Federation would conquer the Empire and rescue him... but the Federation opted to make peace with Romulans instead. IMHO, of course. And the "i-would-test-this-weapon-on-prisoners" thing... come on, the bad guy is not obliged to kick every puppy he met! It would be much unconventional, if he used the laboratory mice, actually.

- The superweapon plot are just bad. Seriously? The biological superweapon that kill victims before they could spread it? Who would ever need such thing? The simple old-fashioned nuclear bomb could do just the same trick much cheaper and more effective.

- The whole attack on "Enterprise" is just bad. The starship, swarmed with the armada of ram drones? Unshielded drones? Drones, that attacked in ridiculously tight formations? For Pete's sake, just several old-fashioned enhanced-radiation nuclear warheads could took out all Krall armada in single blast. And they have photon torpedoes,. Multimegaton-scale antimatter weapon.

- The scene of "Enterprise" destruction and planetfall simply didn't work. The similar scene in "The search of Spock" are lightyear more dramatic and touching.

 

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kenman   

See I thought Krall had a little more than just "they left me behind I'll show them" to him. It was more about how he was a soldier, who didn't fit into the Captain's chair...and when he stranded his ship on a planet, and found tech that prolonged his life, he developed a psycosis in which he came to truly believe that the best way forward in life was through war and death and strife.

He was a man of a bygone era, he was a soldier that helped give the Federation the peace and unity that it is well known for...and he didn't fit in with peace. He didn't feel right in the Captain's chair, and when he got stranded on a planet (lets face, due to his iwn failing as a Captain), he had time to develop his view that Peace was wrong...because he felt war and death and pain and struggles were important to humanity. So he was going to fix that for the Federation. 

I felt that he was a realy interesting villain in the end, one who was about more than just simple revenge. 

I also loved the swarm attack and lots if details you felt didn't work, but that's me. I enjoyed the hell out of this movie. 

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Dilandu   

See I thought Krall had a little more than just "they left me behind I'll show them" to him. It was more about how he was a soldier, who didn't fit into the Captain's chair...and when he stranded his ship on a planet, and found tech that prolonged his life, he developed a psycosis in which he came to truly believe that the best way forward in life was through war and death and strife.

He was a man of a bygone era, he was a soldier that helped give the Federation the peace and unity that it is well known for...and he didn't fit in with peace. He didn't feel right in the Captain's chair, and when he got stranded on a planet (lets face, due to his iwn failing as a Captain), he had time to develop his view that Peace was wrong...because he felt war and death and pain and struggles were important to humanity. So he was going to fix that for the Federation. 

I felt that he was a realy interesting villain in the end, one who was about more than just simple revenge. 

 

Probably yes, but this wasn't shown as well as such role required. This character desperatedly needs more backstory, more characterisation to be believable.

And the "test-this-on-prisoners" thing... just plainly stupid and out of character. Seriously, if he used laboratory mice for the test, it would be much better for his role.

 

I also loved the swarm attack and lots if details you felt didn't work, but that's me. I enjoyed the hell out of this movie. 

Unfortunately, here am I - the hard sci-fi fan) :) Corrupted by the awesome scenes of space battles in ENT and earlier series :) , I just could not accept the "terrible, terrible enemy" that could be destroyed in mere seconds by mid-XX century weapon.

Edited by Dilandu

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kenman   

For me, the movie gave enough background and developed him well. It didn't get bogged down in stopping the movie to tell backstories for characters. 

I'm sorry...but great battles in ENT vs this? I now don't know what to think. Had you said DS9 I might be like "ok" but ENT? For me this was an exciting and unique battle that was undone by something simple and creative. To me, it was far more interesting than anything ENT ever put on screen. I dont consider that series to be the most hard of sci-fis either. 

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Dilandu   

I'm sorry...but great battles in ENT vs this?

Yeah, in ENT) Basically because they shown more or less realistically, how two in Alcubierre bubbles could engage each other while on warp speed. Not always, but often.

The battle in "Beyond"... Stupidly short-ranged (this is SPACE, which is basically billions of cubic miles of nothing, with tiny drops of matter here and there!), on near zero relative velocities (how bad must be "Enterprise" acceleration, that he wasn't able to avoid the attack by simply lurching forward? He may be rammed a few times, but the swarm would be completely thrown out of intercept position), and with laughable weaponry (the photon torpedoes seems to be filled with black powder, for the lack of effect).

Seriously, it was one of the worst space battles even shown. There was nothing actually SPACE about it. Even the "Star Wars" started (slowly, but still) to show some sort of actual space movement understanding (like the fighter, being chased by the enemy, simply turned around and shot the enemy with forward guns, while still moving in the same direction). And "Star Trek" usually was better. For me, it's like J.J. Abrams just decided "oh, if I put a lot of BAM-WAM, BABADOOM and a ton of computer graphic my viewers would swallow everything, so why should I bother myself with logic and common sence?".

Please don't take this lament too seriously, just the grumbling of hard-sci-fi fan :)

 

 

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Shame.  It really should be doing better.  It's much improved over STID.   Maybe when I go to see it a few more times, that'll add to the coffers... :P

I expect it will. :)

I'll be interested in the hold next weekend. I'm hoping it finds a solid second as a more family-friendly alternative to the weekend winner, which will, of course, be Bourne.

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I just got out of the theater.  Overall, I didn't think it was a bad movie, and I didn't think it was a great movie.

 

It was a decent movie.  At times, the characters felt right, at times, they did not.  I wasn't a fan of Spock Prime's death.  While it added some important points to the movie, in the end, Spock decided to remain status quo, which meant that aside from seeing a nice picture, there was no reason for Spock Prime to die.  A nicer tribute would have been that he went back to his own universe, which would also solve the prime universe problem.

While this crew has been shown to be very good, it didn't actually acquire the legendary status the prime crew did that inspired the E-A.

I didn't get why Justin Lin basically filmed the first half of the movie in darkness.  It's hard to follow the action if you don't know who is on screen, and that happened a few times.

 

But in the end, the movie did a lot of good too.  It kept my attention, it had things for all the main characters, and they improved on some things that the other movies failed with.  The Spock/Uhura romance took a back seat thankfully.

Scotty was again written better.

I didn't like Kirk in the first half of the movie, but by the end, he had his moments.

I think with the exception of showing the emotion and laughing, Quinto turned in his best performance as Spock.

But once again, and I'm fine with this, Karl Urban stole the movie.  He is the best thing of the Abrams universe.

 

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Hammer   

Now that I've had a couple of days to reflect, I've been picking the movie apart. While I was entertained and felt it was a solid B when it comes to entertainment value, the plot holes were just unforgivable. So Jaylah finds the Franklin, puts up a cloak (never mind where is she getting that kind of power) to hide it, then lives in it until the Kirk and company show up. With a couple of quick fixes, they get the transporter online. Later, the Franklin is even able to fly! So, how does the Franklin find itself in this situation?

Not-yet-Krall crashes the Franklin with his crew. Much time passes and the crew starts dying off. Apparently, even though it's their own ship, they can't get it flying. So Krall finds fountain-of-youth technology (Insurrection anyone?) and for whatever reason, he not only abandons the Franklin. He apparently forgets that the Franklin is still on the planet! If his troops are going around searching the planet, shouldn't they have been alarmed at the absence of the Franklin? Jaylah's cloak should have set off a red alert!

Let's also not forget the parallel between the face stretching technology in Insurrection and the fountain-of-youth technology here. Another disturbing parallel to a really bad movie.

Another plot contrivance... their entire reason for launching a mission into the nebula. They send their best ship in the fleet to investigate because one alien woman came asking for help? Where's the vetting here? Also, why is she cooperating with Krall anyway? It's apparent that her crew is no longer alive anyway.

The villain's motives were very weak. They should have given him more screen time to flesh them out. In the first part of the movie, he's just a generic villain. We do see his personal logs later, but there is no rationalization as to why he thinks that simply because he got them lost, that equates to Starfleet not caring about them? That's ridiculous. There was an attempt at a message involving returning veterans from war zones, but we don't really hear what his beef is. He seems to be mad that they rewarded him for his service with his own command. Maybe he's mad that they gave him too much freedom to get himself stranded? I have no idea. 

This movie did have some strengths. The special effects were a treat for the eyes. There was better character dialog and a few funny scenes. The 'You gave your girlfriend a tracking device?!' line had the theater howling. I liked Jaylah, although I thought she was overpowered. The views of the starbase are just incredible. I enjoyed the zero G fight at the end. The service to Nimoy was done well, I'd like to see something similar done for Chekov next film. 

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 which meant that aside from seeing a nice picture, there was no reason for Spock Prime to die.  A nicer tribute would have been that he went back to his own universe, which would also solve the prime universe problem.

1) There really is no problem. The Primeline exists. The Kelvin Timeline exists. The people responsible for the franchise say so, therefore it is so. But, you're free to choose your own canon.

2) It would have been out of character. Prime Spock had time travelled and universe hopped to such an extent that he could have taught a master class even in the 26th century. He had dedicated himself in the Kelvin Timeline to rebuilding Vulcan and preserving Vulcan culture. There's nothing wrong with wanting to continue that.

3) Sometimes people just die, so it's ok for characters to just die. If you want to translate a fictional life to a real one, he'd already done more in a year than a dozen people do in a lifetime. There doesn't have to be some big blaze of glory, and there doesn't have to be this notion that Nimoy-Spock or even Quinto-Spock will go on forever.

I think the photo was a beautiful moment on many levels and was more than enough. At the very least, for me, that now serves as Nimoy's last turn as Spock in these films and a far more fitting goodbye than anything else. I can now look at Nimoy's less than meaningless cameo in STID as the aberration that it is.

4) Quinto-Spock laughing is not out of character for this Spock who is, and always has been, closer to his human half than Nimoy's version ever was.

Also, why is she cooperating with Krall anyway? It's apparent that her crew is no longer alive anyway.

You're assuming that any of her story is true. For all anyone really knows she was the only survivor of a small vessel that got swarmed and deciding to suck up to Krall was better than being his next meal.

 

And I don't think they're any more unforgivable than wondering why the Empire didn't just shoot the escape pod in A New Hope and turn Star Wars into a short film. Or the realization that Indiana Jones' presence in Raiders is completely meaningless. He had zero effect on the outcome of anything.

 

Yes, there are holes, but they aren't movie-killing for me.  

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Dilandu   

 

Another plot contrivance... their entire reason for launching a mission into the nebula. They send their best ship in the fleet to investigate because one alien woman came asking for help? Where's the vetting here? Also, why is she cooperating with Krall anyway? It's apparent that her crew is no longer alive anyway.

Hm... he may be with Kraal for a long time, actually. In his last log as human, he stated that only three of his crewmembers are still alive. She may be one of his original crewmembers. Like Manas, for example.

P.S.

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Kalara

Confirmed: she is one of the "Franklin" original crew.

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1) There really is no problem. The Primeline exists. The Kelvin Timeline exists. The people responsible for the franchise say so, therefore it is so. But, you're free to choose your own canon.

Canon is what you see on screen, not in interviews from writers trying to cover themselves.  The prime timeline is gone until they prove it.

 

2) It would have been out of character. Prime Spock had time travelled and universe hopped to such an extent that he could have taught a master class even in the 26th century. He had dedicated himself in the Kelvin Timeline to rebuilding Vulcan and preserving Vulcan culture. There's nothing wrong with wanting to continue that.

And in that class, he would have taught that if you change history, your duty is to put it back--so what's out of character is that he didn't try.

 

3) Sometimes people just die, so it's ok for characters to just die. If you want to translate a fictional life to a real one, he'd already done more in a year than a dozen people do in a lifetime. There doesn't have to be some big blaze of glory, and there doesn't have to be this notion that Nimoy-Spock or even Quinto-Spock will go on forever.

In fiction, writers control these things.  Spock Prime dying was not necessary, and certainly not much of a tribute.

 

I think the photo was a beautiful moment on many levels and was more than enough. At the very least, for me, that now serves as Nimoy's last turn as Spock in these films and a far more fitting goodbye than anything else. I can now look at Nimoy's less than meaningless cameo in STID as the aberration that it is.

 

I will agree with the above.

And another dumb thing--they stop the big bad enemy, that destroyed the Enterprise, with bad music?

 

They should combat the Borg with Nickelback.

 

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Hammer   

 

Another plot contrivance... their entire reason for launching a mission into the nebula. They send their best ship in the fleet to investigate because one alien woman came asking for help? Where's the vetting here? Also, why is she cooperating with Krall anyway? It's apparent that her crew is no longer alive anyway.

Hm... he may be with Kraal for a long time, actually. In his last log as human, he stated that only three of his crewmembers are still alive. She may be one of his original crewmembers. Like Manas, for example.

P.S.

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Kalara

Confirmed: she is one of the "Franklin" original crew.

Where was the vetting of her story? She says her ship was lost, so they just believe her and send in the fleet's finest to a danger zone?

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Dilandu   

1) There really is no problem. The Primeline exists. The Kelvin Timeline exists. The people responsible for the franchise say so, therefore it is so. But, you're free to choose your own canon.

Canon is what you see on screen, not in interviews from writers trying to cover themselves.  The prime timeline is gone until they prove it.

The cause-and-effect logic didn't work like that. Or we would have grandfather paradox with both Spock and "Narada", and the first movie would be looped like space-based groundhog day.

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The prime timeline is gone until they prove it.

Bryan Fuller did, so you should be pleased.

 And in that class, he would have taught that if you change history, your duty is to put it back--so what's out of character is that he didn't try.

 

And perhaps it couldn't happen without Red Matter and Spock, for some 'unfathomable' reason, decided it shouldn't be recreated.he may have decided to leave well enough alone after time after time after time of time-jumping.  

In fiction, writers control these things.  Spock Prime dying was not necessary, and certainly not much of a tribute.

 And for fiction to be relatable it occasionally has to acquiesce to reality. They could have left that Spock alive, they didn't. There would have been nothing wrong with either choice.   

 

 And another dumb thing--they stop the big bad enemy, that destroyed the Enterprise, with bad music?

I actually like the song, so that's relative. Secondly, they could have just broadcast an Emergency Broadcast System monotone over VHF and accomplished the same thing, but what fun would that have been? 

Edited by prometheus59650

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Dilandu   

Where was the vetting of her story? She says her ship was lost, so they just believe her and send in the fleet's finest to a danger zone?

Here, I could agree. But... this kind of humanitarian logic was presented in other Star Trek series also. Quite often "Enterprise" rushed to action just because someone send the distress call.

The more apparent logical flaw, is "how could Kraal&Co be sure that the weapon element was still on "Enterprise""? And even if they somehow could be sure, what was their chances to actually found small metal piece in the wreckage of "Enterprise"? Thei style of attack was definitedly not precise; they could easily trigger ship's complete destruction (or the crew might activate self-destruct), and then what? How they hoped to find small metal thing in the millions of tons of orbital & planetary debris, if they couldn't detect it even inside their own camp?

P.S. And the whole superweapon plot make no sense. So much efforts to just obtain weapon with the destruction ability on the level of several tons of VX.

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Sim   

Yeah, I don't get Krall's motivation, either.

Revenge, for whatever reason, okay. Maybe he wasn't quite sane anymore.

But he believed "war is good for the Federation to make it strong again" ... and he attempted to blow up that station? That doesn't make sense. What was he trying to accomplish?

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Dilandu   

Yeah, I don't get Krall's motivation, either.

Revenge, for whatever reason, okay. Maybe he wasn't quite sane anymore.

But he believed "war is good for the Federation to make it strong again" ... and he attempted to blow up that station? That doesn't make sense. What was he trying to accomplish?

The Good Guys speculated something like "from this station he would be able to launch attacks against countless Federation worlds", but this is only their speculations.

Maybe he didn't actually planned anything in long therms, besides "kick the Federation, and hope it would crumble"/

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The more apparent logical flaw, is "how could Kraal&Co be sure that the weapon element was still on "Enterprise""? And even if they somehow could be sure, what was their chances to actually found small metal piece in the wreckage of "Enterprise"? Thei style of attack was definitedly not precise; they could easily trigger ship's complete destruction (or the crew might activate self-destruct), and then what? How they hoped to find small metal thing in the millions of tons of orbital & planetary debris, if they couldn't detect it even inside their own camp?

This is the bigger flaw in my opinion. The attack was fairly haphazard. One can assume that, since Krall had ongoing access to the Yorktown and, by extension, the Enterprise logs, he knew the artifact was still there. But, everything after shearing off the nacelles had no finesse. He was MACO. It should have had all the precision of a special forces attack. He risked everything by just, seemingly, flailing around.

P.S. And the whole superweapon plot make no sense. So much efforts to just obtain weapon with the destruction ability on the level of several tons of VX.

By all appearances, he could have taken the station at will anyway. The weapon was virtually meaningless. 

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Dilandu   

This is the bigger flaw in my opinion. The attack was fairly haphazard. One can assume that, since Krall had ongoing access to the Yorktown and, by extension, the Enterprise logs, he knew the artifact was still there. But, everything after shearing off the nacelles had no finesse. He was MACO. It should have had all the precision of a special forces attack. He risked everything by just, seemingly, flailing around

Exactly. He should perfectly undestood, that the small metal thing is NOT something that could be easily extracted if he blow "Enterprise". Some sort of covert operation would be much more effective.

 

By all appearances, he could have taken the station at will anyway. The weapon was virtually meaningless. 

And again, exactly. If he wanted to depopulate the station but leave it intact, he could just use old-fashioned neutron bombs of small equivalent.

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kenman   

Bad music is subjective. I happen to like the Beastie Boys. Their presence in 2009 only annoyed because the point of the scene felt like a ham-fisted way of showing young Kirk was a rebel. 

I actually think it wad a clever defeat. The enemy is using an outdated tech to communicate, and the Big Enterprise was too high tech to notice it. Learning they are communicating via radio waves, they are able to utilize that to disrupt them. And the song chosen was both a callback to the first movie and the title is "Sabotage" which is precisely what they were doing to the swarm. 

To me, that was a great and clever way to finish the enemy off, and it took the whole crew to pull off, which was a major part of the theme of the movie: unity. 

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To me, that was a great and clever way to finish the enemy off, and it took the whole crew to pull off, which was a major part of the theme of the movie: unity. 

Both audiences I attended with quite loved the moment. 

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