Mr.Picard

No Man's Sky

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Oh that's a great tip, I'll try that as well, thanks! I see so many shiny ships that I want but I never have enough money, haha! I'm doing all the scanning and planet exploration and whatnot and I upload it all and you do get money from that, but I need something else. That chip thing sounds like a perfect addition. Heh.

It's slightly tedious, but so is going from planet to planet and system to system with inadequate equipment and space. If I can slog through a bit of tedium now I won't have to keep recharging everything on my suit or my ship quite as often so I can actually poke around these planets a bit more. As it is, I still feel a little too tethered to the ship. (As in, if I stray from it too far I'm just going to die, which has happened)

With Iron literally everywhere and Plutonium almost as prevalent, and the chips selling for 3700 a pop in my current system, it's a high payout for little effort or comparative risk.

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Oh that's a great tip, I'll try that as well, thanks! I see so many shiny ships that I want but I never have enough money, haha! I'm doing all the scanning and planet exploration and whatnot and I upload it all and you do get money from that, but I need something else. That chip thing sounds like a perfect addition. Heh.

It's slightly tedious, but so is going from planet to planet and system to system with inadequate equipment and space. If I can slog through a bit of tedium now I won't have to keep recharging everything on my suit or my ship quite as often so I can actually poke around these planets a bit more. As it is, I still feel a little too tethered to the ship. (As in, if I stray from it too far I'm just going to die, which has happened)

With Iron literally everywhere and Plutonium almost as prevalent, and the chips selling for 3700 a pop in my current system, it's a high payout for little effort or comparative risk.

Absolutely. I try to keep my ship well stuffed with all the things so that I don't run out. (Which is probably unwise, given how I'm frequently chased by enemy ships in space, but I've figured out how to defend myself by now... mwahahahaha.) What really annoys me is the "ship out of range" thing though. I mean I'm standing only a few meters away and it says "out of range"... like... umm, I can SEE the ship how is it out of range, what is this.

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As much as it pains me, I had to let this game go. There just aren't enough game mechanics in place to make it a worthwhile timesink for me. Launching away from a planet and flying is lovely, but, all there really is to do is upgrade your ship, tools, and suit. Sure, the universe is there, but it's lonely. That I could handle, as I'm very comfortable being a solitary gamer. I play Call of Duty, but people there are a necessary evil. I mute them all. Always. And games like "Uncharted" and "The Last of Us?" I never touched the multiplayer or wanted to. The story was why you buy those games and once I made my way through it, I was done.

The far bigger problem for me is the sameness of it all. Spend an hour on a planet and you've seen it all for the most part. There are no grand discoveries to make. It's, "Land. Mine. Leave. Warp...just to do it again in the next system. There are no civilizations to interact with really, no dead, abandoned cities with loot that you could dig your way to. There's no real mystery to unravel with the Atlas Stones. There's not really anything but more mining.

And I have to ask...why are there "undiscovered" planets with alien trading ports on them?  Seems like the people who set up shop there God knows how long before I showed up would have named it.

I don't need Hello Games to try for this grand scale universe like Star Citizen, but there has to be more to hold my interest. One single mechanic does not a game make no matter how pretty the surroundings for it.

This is not even mentioning the ending for this game, which, at best is 'meh,' and, at worst insults all the effort put in to get to it in the first place.

If they had wanted to sell me this indie game for $19.99 at most, I'd probably be fine with picking it up to poke around now and then. For $60, I want more than just the one thing,

Edited by prometheus59650

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As much as it pains me, I had to let this game go. There just aren't enough game mechanics in place to make it a worthwhile timesink for me. Launching away from a planet and flying is lovely, but, all there really is to do is upgrade your ship, tools, and suit. Sure, the universe is there, but it's lonely. That I could handle, as I'm very comfortable being a solitary gamer. I play Call of Duty, but people there are a necessary evil. I mute them all. Always. And games like "Uncharted" and "The Last of Us?" I never touched the multiplayer or wanted to. The story was why you buy those games and once I made my way through it, I was done.

The far bigger problem for me is the sameness of it all. Spend an hour on a planet and you've seen it all for the most part. There are no grand discoveries to make. It's, "Land. Mine. Leave. Warp...just to do it again in the next system. There are no civilizations to interact with really, no dead, abandoned cities with loot that you could dig your way to. There's no real mystery to unravel with the Atlas Stones. There's not really anything but more mining.

And I have to ask...why are there "undiscovered" planets with alien trading ports on them?  Seems like the people who set up shop there God knows how long before I showed up would have named it.

I don't need Hello Games to try for this grand scale universe like Star Citizen, but there has to be more to hold my interest. One single mechanic does not a game make no matter how pretty the surroundings for it.

This is not even mentioning the ending for this game, which, at best is 'meh,' and, at worst insults all the effort put in to get to it in the first place.

If they had wanted to sell me this indie game for $19.99 at most, I'd probably be fine with picking it up to poke around now and then. For $60, I want more than just the one thing,

As far as I can tell, this reflects the general mood and reception of the game by now. People are massively frustrated and feel let down and even betrayed because a lot of things were promised before the release and very little of it is actually in the game. (Such as "choosing factions", for example. You don't really do that.) In short: It doesn't live up to most of what it promised.

I for one can absolutely do without multiplayer options as well, I have never been interested in playing with others, I am a loner, in gaming as much as in real life. But - I do understand the frustration since there had been clear statements of "yes, you can absolutely run into your friends" and now all you do is travel alone. No wonder people are angry. But this is a minor thing - for me, anyway - compared to the other problems the game brings.

The biggest problem I indeed have is the lack of diversity of the gameplay. I'm also all for "the journey is important, not the destination", but then you have to make the journey interesting. I do occasionally run into amazing planets, I was on a lovely one with cute little animals and even something that strongly resembled a T-Rex yesterday, but that was the first time this happened. Almost every other planet is either radioactive, too hot, too cold, toxic, whatever to stay on for too long and you spend all your time re-charging your equipment and shields instead of just walking around, exploring. You can't go too far away from your ship either since it's the only place where you can really re-charge your health. It's not a game of exploration for the most part, it's a game of collecting elements to keep yourself going. (And desperately trying to stuff them somewhere, you run out of space so, so quickly, no matter how many slots your exosuit has.) Now, it may be "realistic" or whatever that planets don't cater to human (is that traveler even human? We just don't know) needs, but I doubt people would have minded if they had slightly "bent" reality here and made maybe only half of the planets too extreme to walk around on for an extended time. It would take away a lot of frustration, at least for me.

I also absolutely agree about the endings. No matter which path you choose, the ending is a massive let down. I understand the anger here completely, too. The Atlas path also holds another frustration: The stones. I've read from SO many people that they sold their stones, only to learn at the end of the game that they need ALL of them to complete it - and buying even one stone on the network costs a fortune that you just can't afford mostly, especially not if you need more than one. It's ridiculous - games used to work like that way back when there was no such thing as open worlds or going back to a former place, but even then they usually didn't allow you to sell/throw away important items so that you knew "oh wait I'm gonna need this later, right?". This is nothing but trolling from the ones in charge of the game - it NEVER tells you to keep the stones. (It never tells you ANYTHING, in fact. It's all good to have a game that doesn't force you to do this and that, but there HAVE to be guidelines SOMEWHERE, or people will get frustrated.)

So yes, I agree with the frustration here. It's all the same, over and over again, and I've pretty much given up exploring by now because I've basically seen it all. Everything looks the same - it's just put together slightly differently and has a different name. The only reason to scan things is for the units it gets you, but I've also pretty much stopped trying to buy stuff. I just get the elements I need for the hyperdrive and then jump on and and on, I want to make it to the center and be done with the game. (I have this annoying habit of wanting to at least finish a game once.) 

I'll probably be playing this until FIFA is released in a few weeks. Then it's bye bye for it for me too, I'll probably pull it out from time to time and play a bit but that's all, it certainly doesn't have the same fascinating aspects that GTA 5 or Dying Light have that make me go back to these games despite having completed both. (I could still spend HOURS in Los Santos or Harran/The Countryside, such utterly fascinating environments!) It was a great concept, a great idea, and sometimes it still manages to capture me and I can feel the original excitement I and everyone else had for the game, but then it becomes the same thing all over again and I'm even more frustrated.

I'm not sure this can even be fixed by updates. From what I hear there are a lot of people who can't even play the game properly and whose PS4 crashes on a regular basis because of the game. They're trying to fix THAT at the moment. But really, they have lost so many people by now, I'm not sure anyone would NOTICE any updates. It would take too long for them to implement them and make the game into the originally promised one. Their audience will be long gone by then. I do still praise the relaxing undertone of the game and it is refreshing to not have to complete ten main missions and fifteen side missions at once, but really, excessive repetitiveness can be just as frustrating. (I do like just sitting in my ship though. That IS relaxing, especially when it rains.) It has a few nice redeeming qualities still, but oh dear, that massive frustration really sets in sooner or later. 

Edited by Mr.Picard

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(I could still spend HOURS in Los Santos )

Same. It's lovely. I spent hours just taking a motorcycle across the state...or jumping out of a plane just to parachute down. I even just liked taking a helicopter in Vice City with the radio going and just bathing in all that 80s atmosphere.

I'm not sure this can even be fixed by updates. From what I hear there are a lot of people who can't even play the game properly and whose PS4 crashes on a regular basis because of the game. They're trying to fix THAT at the moment. But really, they have lost so many people by now, I'm not sure anyone would NOTICE any updates. It would take too long for them to implement them and make the game into the originally promised one. Their audience will be long gone by then. I do still praise the relaxing undertone of the game and it is refreshing to not have to complete ten main missions and fifteen side missions at once, but really, excessive repetitiveness can be just as frustrating. (I do like just sitting in my ship though. That IS relaxing, especially when it rains.) It has a few nice redeeming qualities still, but oh dear, that massive frustration really sets in sooner or later. 

Soon (apparently) you'll be able to own a freighter and build a shelter. Problem is that I don't know what either of these things are gonna do for the game, other than give you...drum roll...more slots.

And, as for losing people, apparently the PC player base is down 90%.

I  am not shocked.  

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(I could still spend HOURS in Los Santos )

Same. It's lovely. I spent hours just taking a motorcycle across the state...or jumping out of a plane just to parachute down. I even just liked taking a helicopter in Vice City with the radio going and just bathing in all that 80s atmosphere.

I'm not sure this can even be fixed by updates. From what I hear there are a lot of people who can't even play the game properly and whose PS4 crashes on a regular basis because of the game. They're trying to fix THAT at the moment. But really, they have lost so many people by now, I'm not sure anyone would NOTICE any updates. It would take too long for them to implement them and make the game into the originally promised one. Their audience will be long gone by then. I do still praise the relaxing undertone of the game and it is refreshing to not have to complete ten main missions and fifteen side missions at once, but really, excessive repetitiveness can be just as frustrating. (I do like just sitting in my ship though. That IS relaxing, especially when it rains.) It has a few nice redeeming qualities still, but oh dear, that massive frustration really sets in sooner or later. 

Soon (apparently) you'll be able to own a freighter and build a shelter. Problem is that I don't know what either of these things are gonna do for the game, other than give you...drum roll...more slots.

And, as for losing people, apparently the PC player base is down 90%.

I  am not shocked.  

I'm not shocked either. Or surprised. And why would I want to build a shelter on a planet to which I can't return anyway? The game is about going forward. And, of course, in order to be able to build a shelter you'll need to collect... more elements! Yay. Not. That shelter option is just about the LAST thing the game needs. It needs more planet variety. Less focus on gathering things. More exploration. Less lame monolith riddles. Choosing a faction and then having to fight for and with your team. (That's one thing Pokémon Go did right. The teams. Everything else is a mess there by now but people still love the different teams.) But all they come up with is "you can build shelters now"... like... thanks, but nobody asked for this? lol And what would I want with a freighter? Freighters are useless, and I'm sure it'll constantly be under attack, and I really don't want to drag a freighter along all the time either... ack. But then it'll probably be so expensive that no one can afford one anyway, haha.

I do the same things in Los Santos! Whenever I put in GTA 5 I know I'll be busy for the next few hours. And I don't even play the online version. Just the core game. I always grab Franklin (my fave) and do taxi jobs or pull cars or go to the naughty naughty club or just go hiking in the mountains. Or parachute. Or swim. (And cause trouble as well because I just can't resist, haha.) Or just grab a bike and drive around. Tune up cars (since Franklin can do this for free in that one place). I honestly can't imagine having this much fun in No Man's Sky. Ever. It's ironic, really - that game has the UNIVERSE as its playground and GTA 5 has a fictional city based on Los Angeles and exploration isn't even its main theme and yet it's a zillion times more entertaining. Something REALLY went wrong there with No Man's Sky.

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Amazon/Steam/PSN quietly offering refunds.

Between my 20% discount at Best Buy and the $30 in trade-in credit....$18 is about all it was worth anyway.

I think Amazon has this as a standard thing though - you can always send back games you don't really like. Not sure how it works exactly but I've heard of people doing it and getting most of their money back.

I've watched a lot of "rage" videos on YouTube about No Man's Sky in the past two days and I believe I understand the anger now. There are videos that have detailed reviews on what features Sean Murray promised and said the game would have and how they are either tuned down or completely non-existent in the actual game. People are feeling betrayed - and what no one really seems to understand is WHY this was done. I mean Murray must have known that people would give their games back and that this would essentially finish his career. Why did he agree to it? Why did he build up all the hype with the amazing trailers and his glorious promises? He must have known how unforgiving the gaming community can be. I mean it was clear that the game wouldn't live up to ALL the hype but Hello Games basically released nothing more than a crappy beta demo version of what they promised. Some people say they were pressured and rushed by Sony, others say they had started to believe their own lies and were stuck so deeply that all they could do was watch the train derail. Ah well.

All they're doing at the moment is releasing patches for the game that don't work. It still crashes all the time, which only makes it even more frustrating to play, I just want to get to the center and then put the game aside (damn this annoying habit of wanting to finish a game, argh!). This whole patch disaster probably supports the "they rushed out an unfinished beta" theory.

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 He must have known how unforgiving the gaming community can be. I mean it was clear that the game wouldn't live up to ALL the hype but Hello Games basically released nothing more than a crappy beta demo version of what they promised. Some people say they were pressured and rushed by Sony, others say they had started to believe their own lies and were stuck so deeply that all they could do was watch the train derail.

I think you'll find it was a bit of both.

I was in on the Bioware boards when Mass Effect 3 came out and the rage was palpable. I mean, you can almost see where things were chopped to hurry up and get to the end. That the end itself is an esoteric mess that completely disregards three games worth of perceived player agency to make Shepard a switch-flipper for a computer program that can't do it itself is a whole 'nother story. But people were shouting to the rafters about how EA wanted the game shoved out the door so they could tally sales in time for their end of fiscal year.

They'll never come out with it, but, not long ago, one of the former senior designers, while trying to defend the ending said something like, "We (Bioware) were in control of most of it." Most. Okay.

There's probably some truth to the idea that once hype started building and Sony saw that they could market and sell this thing like a AAA title, that they wanted it out the door to make that bank.

And, yes, there's also, no doubt that Murray started getting all wrapped up in what the game could do as opposed to what he could realistically get it to do with an art house shop with 15 people. He wanted it to be basically Star Citizen by the sound of it

...And that just wasn't going to happen. Add to that the thrill of people fawning over him and his promises and it's like a drug, so he makes more promises.

The high's over now. 

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 He must have known how unforgiving the gaming community can be. I mean it was clear that the game wouldn't live up to ALL the hype but Hello Games basically released nothing more than a crappy beta demo version of what they promised. Some people say they were pressured and rushed by Sony, others say they had started to believe their own lies and were stuck so deeply that all they could do was watch the train derail.

I think you'll find it was a bit of both.

I was in on the Bioware boards when Mass Effect 3 came out and the rage was palpable. I mean, you can almost see where things were chopped to hurry up and get to the end. That the end itself is an esoteric mess that completely disregards three games worth of perceived player agency to make Shepard a switch-flipper for a computer program that can't do it itself is a whole 'nother story. But people were shouting to the rafters about how EA wanted the game shoved out the door so they could tally sales in time for their end of fiscal year.

They'll never come out with it, but, not long ago, one of the former senior designers, while trying to defend the ending said something like, "We (Bioware) were in control of most of it." Most. Okay.

There's probably some truth to the idea that once hype started building and Sony saw that they could market and sell this thing like a AAA title, that they wanted it out the door to make that bank.

And, yes, there's also, no doubt that Murray started getting all wrapped up in what the game could do as opposed to what he could realistically get it to do with an art house shop with 15 people. He wanted it to be basically Star Citizen by the sound of it

...And that just wasn't going to happen. Add to that the thrill of people fawning over him and his promises and it's like a drug, so he makes more promises.

The high's over now. 

It certainly is, given the rather furious backlash the game has received. The worst thing is that people actually DO enjoy it at first. They DID something right with the idea. The game just gets too repetitive too quickly, and it has too many issues with stability. (Mine just crashed for the fourth time in two hours.) They claim 90% of crashes have been fixed now - no, nothing has been fixed, it crashes just as much as it used to.

But they WERE on to something there. I wonder if another company is going to pick up the good pieces now and make another, better game. (Not sure if customers will trust though. I certainly wouldn't.)

And you're right, it probably is both greed and the desire to be loved by the gaming community. I really also think Murray actually did want all those features in the game - he just had no idea how, and probably kept telling himself "we'll get to it"... only they never did and now the game is just... well, mostly a mess.

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The worst thing is that people actually DO enjoy it at first. They DID something right with the idea. 

They did. I like it for the little that it is, there's just nothing else but the one mechanic and nothing to break that up at all. What if you found clues and, if you had the right equipment, you could dig to an underground, abandoned city to loot? Or a thriving city brimming with buildings and people, but they need this rare element that's on the planet to keep going, so it's to you to go get it. In return, they give you other rare things...or en exosuit with 100 slots...Or something.

What if you found an abandoned freighter full of goodies that you can dock with? Explore the ship and the terminals and you find out what happened to the crew. Do the math puzzles and you get systems going, as you go back and forth from the planets to the ship for resources to repair it. Do you just raid it and leave? Do you repair it and take it to the station and sell it for huge bucks? Do you get it going enough to call the Korvax or whoever owns it and maybe they'll give you a direct reward or huge payouts or discounts on resources? Or maybe they say thanks and give you nothing.

Or put the pieces of a recipe in a system...complete the recipe and you can fly in your suit. You might have to stop frequently and recharge it, but you can cover way more ground and really dig around the planet.

There are things you could do with that same basic mechanic, but also incentivize the player to so what you want them to: explore and move forward.

And I do sorta feel badly about walking away from it because, oddly, I still do kinda like it even though it is so empty.

 

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^ I love the city idea! I'd love to play the game if it had that feature! And flying! I'd love that, too!

I came across an Improvement Thread on Reddit today that really had a few great ideas as well.

Don't feel bad about abandoning the game a a vast majority of people has already done he same, and I will as well - I'll view it as a great idea that just fell flat on its face due to greed. It has its moments and all, but it just doesn't have enough to keep people interested.

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Kerdor   

I'm still playing and enjoying the game.  Yes there are promised features that arent there; but that doesnt bother me since I never bought into the hype.  What's fun for me is to land, look at all the pretty landscape; look for silly creatures and find whatever anklebiter spidercrab things are around and exterminate them.

 

If the anklebiters arent around; its a fairly relaxing game to play once you have enough exosuit slots to not have to worry about running out of recharging fuels.

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I'm still playing and enjoying the game.  Yes there are promised features that arent there; but that doesnt bother me since I never bought into the hype.  What's fun for me is to land, look at all the pretty landscape; look for silly creatures and find whatever anklebiter spidercrab things are around and exterminate them.

 

If the anklebiters arent around; its a fairly relaxing game to play once you have enough exosuit slots to not have to worry about running out of recharging fuels.

^ There are indeed people who still can enjoy the game despite its lack of promised content, and I think that's great, and it shows that they didn't do EVERYTHING wrong. Glad you're having a good time with it! It has its relaxing moments, that's for sure.

I have now stopped playing it, though. It crashes way too often, and I'm too impatient. I'll never make it to the center of the galaxy, I do have the best warp drive and all but I'm not really MOVING. (I did use black holes and all, but it really looks like as if I'm just making tiny little steps, and I have no patience whatsoever for this kind of thing. I'm all for journeys but there are no rewards along the way and it's the same same saaaaaame procedure every time. Warp, starbase, warp, starbase, warp, planet for resources, warp, repeat, repeat. Tedious. And why am I flying into black holes though, isn't that a bad thing, shouldn't these be wormholes? Whatever, I know nothing about astronomy. Haha.) I will, however, keep the game for now, maybe they'll have a few nice updates at some point that fix all the crashing issues AND that maybe also add some REAL good content and more variety. But, for now, it's back to Los Santos and/or Harran for me - until Fifa 17.

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While part of me feels like No Man’s Sky, like any other game, should be free to sell DLC, I think they’ve shot themselves in the foot through these years of promised features. Even if they weren’t misleading fans maliciously (which I don’t think they were), they created this scenario where so much was promised that simply wasn’t delivered, which makes adding anything new to the game via paid DLC a much more tricky prospect from a PR perspective.

Where does NMS go from here...if anywhere at all?

They can and should add the things like freighters and the shelters they've directly promised since launch. But I think what player base remains simply has to accept that, if they want some of the other things Murray talked about, they'll have to pay for it. Most of them won't, but that's another issue. Hello Games simply isn't going to basically add 75% to the game's current content via freebie patches.

As I've pointed out upthread with some of my own suggestions, there are things they can do....and in keeping with the procedurally generated nature of the game to maybe get me back to check it out. MP was never going to happen because it'd never work unless, for example, the game offered you free warp to your buddies, which breaks one of the game's basic play mechanics and invites cheating as I could just slingshot to my friends ahead of me.

That there's no real reason to get to the center is still another matter.

But if you did things like abandoned ships in orbit to loot or repair, or basic bread crumb quests for "super items," I might come back.

Just give me a sense that I'm not the only person in the universe... Give me the sense that things are happening around me that I can react to  and get involved in even if I never actually see another flesh and blood player. 

Edited by prometheus59650

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I definitely will NOT pay for No Man's Sky DLC. No way. I hardly EVER pay for anything DLC, no matter which game. It took me MONTHS to finally persuade myself to pay for Dying Light's The Following extension and Dying Light is my favorite game by now and The Following is really just as good as the main game (except for the ending, arghhhhh). I also only bought it because it came as a physical disc, complete with all the other previously released DLC, I just found that to be very neat and convenient. (I like to hold games in my hands instead of just seeing downloads on a screen. I'm old-fashioned.)

tl;dr: I have to REALLY REALLY REALLY love a game to even consider the DLC thing. No Man's Sky is NOWHERE near anything I love, so, no way. They can keep their paid DLC. I already paid way too much for the game itself, after all. And I really doubt the majority of those who are as angry with it as I am now think any differently. We were lied to and now they might want for us to pay even more for stuff that should have been in the game from the start because they said it would be? Nuh-uh. ;) 

The player base that's left and that's okay with the game as it is right now might pay though. But also not all of them. In short: It'll be a nightmare for Hello Games to sell DLC. 

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It lives! 

Foundation Update

Way too late, but hey, at least it's free, like, apparently, all future updates. (Not TOO trusting on that one though.) I've pulled my No Man's Sky copy out from under all my other PS4 games, I'm curious as to whether this update brings at least SOME of the things we wanted in the first place. (Besides, this speaks to my Sims love. I love building houses.)

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It is an ironic title, No Man's Sky, whereas you will not like it once you get to the end. At least Star Trek has reset buttons. Clearly the hype and advertising far exceeded what they were capable of actually building for the world building in the game. The production was rushed and the worlds are all very similar, with extra trimmings but basically similar. The eventual goal is apparently to reach the galaxy center and see something amazing, but it turns out it's like the Contact ending and the alien is just a guy, (well her Dad, but still, really movie)? or worse, like the ending of The Happening (so it happened when you weren't looking so it's a metaphor). The game smacks of a story where they had an idea, and just an idea, and no actual story. They had no ending in mind, or if they did, it was an afterthought, like this story needs some kind of disconnected conclusion.

Other similar games had actual world building, places to go, things to encounter, and stuff to find to get where you're going. This would make a fine in the background entertainment for bored kids. They can just play the repeated planet plots. A savvy enough kid would be done in a short time though, and want to get rid of it.

It seems a successful game experience is one where things are constantly evolving and changing, and even if the ending goal is simple, say rescue the princess and defeat the final boss, or find the final boss, and defeat it, or get across the city map to do several in game missions, or get across the alien landscape to get to certain missions, ending in some kind of final boss fight.

No Mans Sky seems like a thinking game, even Trek like, in the promotion, but is not really in the execution. It is more like an old style crawl though environments game, like those old Atari games that went nowhere. It will be this generation's ET the Game.

I have more fun playing Atari Adventure for PC, or some old MechWarrior, or to watch a play through of something, but I am old skool.

Edited by Chimera82405

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