GenesisDevice

50 dead in gay nightclub shooting, Orlando, FL

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Go figure.  Gun sales have sky rocketed into a fairly new demographic........the LGBT community.  I was in my favorite gun store today, a friend works there and he said over the last week he's sold a ton to LGBT couples who are coming in together and deciding to protect themselves.  Good for them.  

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Isn't it just easier to leave other people alone than arm up?

In a utopian society.......sure.  In our's?  No.  I personally believe in carrying and protecting yourself first before you rely on someone else to do it.

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Isn't it just easier to leave other people alone than arm up?

In a utopian society.......sure.  In our's?  No.  I personally believe in carrying and protecting yourself first before you rely on someone else to do it.

In any society it is easier just to leave other people alone. Not just a utopian. That we don't just makes us worth an ID4 cleansing.

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I tend to keep to myself.  I'm part of the LGBTQ2IA community and I live in one of the most accepting parts of the world, yet I still try to stay indoors.  In fact, I have to go take a bus soon, but I'm stalling because of fear.  I'd rather write this post than go out there, because I am aware that I look less-than-stellar today and that I will be noticed, that I will get strange looks that I did NOT get pre-transition (people have argued with me that I'm exaggerating and that everyone gets strange looks - this is true, but I've been in the closet and out of the closet, and you get more looks out of it, that's for damn sure).  Do I have to fear?  Technically no, but that goes for everyone, and I think it's rather insensitive and ignorant to suggest that someone shouldn't be afraid when you haven't experienced what they are going through.  Besides, the act of being afraid is quite typically involuntary.

This was a tragedy I cannot really wrap my head around.  It's 2016, and to know that we're still so hated in the part of the world that preaches tolerance and love-thy-neighbour, is quite honestly sickening.

I feel so much for the victims and their families/friends.

Please, fellow queer boarders, be safe, and don't let people tell you you have it good.  We have a long road to go down before that is even remotely true.

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I tend to keep to myself.  I'm part of the LGBTQ2IA community and I live in one of the most accepting parts of the world, yet I still try to stay indoors.  In fact, I have to go take a bus soon, but I'm stalling because of fear.  I'd rather write this post than go out there, because I am aware that I look less-than-stellar today and that I will be noticed, that I will get strange looks that I did NOT get pre-transition (people have argued with me that I'm exaggerating and that everyone gets strange looks - this is true, but I've been in the closet and out of the closet, and you get more looks out of it, that's for damn sure).  Do I have to fear?  Technically no, but that goes for everyone, and I think it's rather insensitive and ignorant to suggest that someone shouldn't be afraid when you haven't experienced what they are going through.  Besides, the act of being afraid is quite typically involuntary.

This was a tragedy I cannot really wrap my head around.  It's 2016, and to know that we're still so hated in the part of the world that preaches tolerance and love-thy-neighbour, is quite honestly sickening.

I feel so much for the victims and their families/friends.

Please, fellow queer boarders, be safe, and don't let people tell you you have it good.  We have a long road to go down before that is even remotely true.

^
I wish I didn't have to agree with this post; I wish I could say it wasn't so, but it doctor_odd is absolutely right.  

I wish this were a world where people who are LGBT didn't have to have such an involuntary fear reaction.    I agree that there has been progress (gay marriage has swept across the United States far faster than even my wildest predictions), but the minority backlash seems to have been getting more vocal and dangerous as well (like a crazed wounded animal fighting its own inevitable demise).    It's still a dangerous world for differences.   And new laws can't wash away bigotry, any more than the US' own Civil Rights Act and a black president eliminated racism. 

But.... if nothing else?  This site will always do its best to remain a safe haven.   ;)

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"It could be worse." is not a positive.

^
Exactly.  

And telling them to arm up is little more than an invitation to anarchy.   I prefer to aim for a society which works harder to respect the diversity of others instead of scared people walking around armed to the teeth ready to kill each other over the first provocation. 

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Even IF the world suddenly became safe for LGBT folks we would STILL fear. It's deeply inside us, you can't shake it off. 

It would probably take one or two generations for us to start feeling at ease. But we would most likely always teach kids that things weren't as shiny once and what we had to go through just because we happened to "differ from the majority". It's a struggle that the community won't forget. Forgive, one day, who knows, but never forget.

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Arming yourself isnt about pulling it out at the first provaction.  If you take the proper classes, like I did, have full education on it, and are fully prepared, then you know the proper steps to take before you produce that gun from being concealed.  

I realize that I myself seem to be in the minority on this particular site. I respect people who dont like guns or the idea of carrying one.  I suppose you could call me more of a klingon, to make a light joke website related.  

Defending yourself is a basic instinct that honestly should not be ignored, in my opinion.  And i fully realize that its just my opinion.

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Arming yourself isnt about pulling it out at the first provaction.  If you take the proper classes, like I did, have full education on it, and are fully prepared, then you know the proper steps to take before you produce that gun from being concealed.  

But the majority of gun owners are not necessarily so responsible.   Nor is it such a grand idea to turn the entire country into one, big, nervous, armed standoff. 

Defending yourself is a basic instinct that honestly should not be ignored, in my opinion.  And i fully realize that its just my opinion.

Even if any of the patrons at The Pulse had a concealed firearm, it wouldn't have made a significant difference.   The shooter came in spraying bullets; an armed patron wouldn't have been able to draw their concealed weapon in time.   Not to mention the potential increase in domestic firearm shootings, accidental shootings, or children getting ahold of the household firearms that owning a firearm brings (Adam Lanza being the most notorious example).  Read this: https://injury.research.chop.edu/violence-prevention-initiative/types-violence-involving-youth/gun-violence/gun-violence-facts-and#.V2N8Qld3tHg  

Back in the '90s, I was neighborhood watch for 5 years at my old apartment complex (in my pre-homeowner bachelor days).  My apartment complex was near a university in a relatively high crime neighborhood.   And for those 5 years I never carried a gun, but I reported a lot of crimes and even had to offer eyewitness accounts downtown to the police on a few occasions.   All I'm saying is that it is possible to work toward reducing crime without owning a gun. 

 

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scenario   

5% of the people in the U.S. have a permit to carry a handgun. One and a half million people in Florida have a permit to carry a handgun. With the number of people in the nightclub, it was almost certain that there were concealed handguns there. But the only person I read about shooting back was an off duty cop who was paid security. In all of the mass shootings I've never read of anyone but the police shooting back. With 300 million guns in the U.S. I don't believe that no one in any of the many shootings we've seen have had a gun. 

How did owning a gun protect the people in that nightclub? Most shooting happen so fast that if you're the target you're dead before you can think about getting your gun Very few attackers announce from 30 feet away that they are going to attack you and give you time to get your gun out and get ready.There are very few situations where having a gun is useful for the average person. There are many more situations where the gun is more dangerous to the owner than to the criminal. Guns are like a high powered car. Most people can't handle them properly without a lot of practice. And with guns, in most cases, you only get a few seconds from the time you need to use them before its too late to. 

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5% of the people in the U.S. have a permit to carry a handgun. One and a half million people in Florida have a permit to carry a handgun. With the number of people in the nightclub, it was almost certain that there were concealed handguns there. But the only person I read about shooting back was an off duty cop who was paid security. In all of the mass shootings I've never read of anyone but the police shooting back. With 300 million guns in the U.S. I don't believe that no one in any of the many shootings we've seen have had a gun. 

How did owning a gun protect the people in that nightclub? Most shooting happen so fast that if you're the target you're dead before you can think about getting your gun Very few attackers announce from 30 feet away that they are going to attack you and give you time to get your gun out and get ready.There are very few situations where having a gun is useful for the average person. There are many more situations where the gun is more dangerous to the owner than to the criminal. Guns are like a high powered car. Most people can't handle them properly without a lot of practice. And with guns, in most cases, you only get a few seconds from the time you need to use them before its too late to. 

^

I haven't read anything about this, but it wouldn't surprise me if more than one of the patrons had a concealed weapon of some kind; especially if they were victims of homophobic attacks in the past.    But even if say, a third of them were armed (not probable, I admit) it wouldn't have made a difference because they were relaxed and having a good time in a place that most of us would feel safe in (surrounded by friends and like-minded revelers).   I'm 100% certain that no one in that club, armed or not, would've expected/anticipated a gun battle, let alone a full-on massacre.

Most were probably intoxicated (hey, it was a club; that's what happens) and had their guard down.   Especially considering that being gay, most of the patrons spent their whole day being guarded; this was a place they were supposed to be able to RELAX and BE THEMSELVES.    I don't think anyone but the most paranoid of paranoid people would go to such a place anticipating the worst mass shooting in the history of the United States.

And yes, handgun use requires skill, focus and training.   I wouldn't expect lightning fast reflexes or keen shooting abilities from an intoxicated club patron at 1-2 am.   These were innocent people having a good time.   NONE of them could've prepared or anticipated this; even if they were armed to the teeth.  And in the time it would take to draw and aim (esp. while drunk), a shooter with an automatic weapon would've done far too much damage.

This is all-too similar to the shooting in Aurora, Colorado a few years ago; a group of moviegoers attending a late night screening of a Batman movie: hardly a crowd expecting or anticipating a real life fight for survival. 

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I never said it would stop mass shootings or change what has already come to pass. But you cannot ignore the possibility that it could. While I respect your resistance to own a gun or carry one, I would ask the same respect in my decision empowered to me by the 2nd amendment and the state of Indiana.  

I would rather take an aggressive stance against self defense than go down having done nothing to empower myself.  I might get shot before I could draw my weapon but at least I gave myself the tool and skill to possibly make a difference.

And for the record, the reason you dont hear about when a concealed carry is used to save lives is because our idiot media has its own agenda.  So allow me to do some digging for you, to set the record straight.

http://insider.foxnews.com/2016/02/03/armed-marine-veteran-saves-texas-deputy-struggling-suspect

http://www.wnd.com/2015/03/man-with-concealed-carry-stops-slaughter/

http://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2015/08/10-cases-where-a-concealed-carry-handgun-saved-the-day/

 

I could easily post more links, but the point is that if you dig through the layers of BS that these stories are buried under, or simply not reported on CNN or most major news outlets, you can find the truth and evidence that being armed does in fact save lives in some cases.  

Therefore I submit to you that it is our right to choose.  I dont look down on people who choose not to own/carry, therefore I should not be looked upon as strange.

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Ok, we're all getting way off the topic here (and we're all partly responsible; myself included).

This thread is about the massacre in the Pulse night club, the single worst shooting in US history.   This really can't be turned into a 2nd amendment debate; we have TONS of gun related topics in the Kobayashi Maru section (which you'll gain access to after 200 posts).   Let's save the Fox News links and other handgun related site links for that section, OK? This is about the shooting in Florida.

And in my previous post, I never said it was 'strange' to own a handgun; I said that in the case of the Pulse club massacre it wouldn't have made any significant difference, since most of the patrons were off-guard, relaxed, and probably intoxicated (not to ideal circumstances to wield a firearm, let alone use it expertly for self-defense).  NONE of them could've anticipated what was about to happen, and NONE of them could've taken any action that would've helped reduced that casualty rate.   The shooter caught them when they were completely vulnerable.   This was a classic definition of an unforeseen circumstance.   

 

But let's table any Gun Control talk for the KM section; this thread really should be about the massacre itself, not a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking about what the victims could've or should've done.   

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