GenesisDevice

50 dead in gay nightclub shooting, Orlando, FL

Recommended Posts

Sim   

Regardless of whether the shooter loathed gay people because he wished to live up to an ideology that loathes gay people or loathed himself because he could not live up to an ideology that loathes gay people, the existence of such hate-filled ideologies ultimately enabled his violence.  More gun control laws will not solve the problem if we do not address the persistence of the toxic ideologies that drive violent minds to act on such hatred (of others or self).  

While I cannot imagine resorting to such heinous violence, I can imagine the rejection some individual's feel when one's sexual identity does not conform to one's religious ideology.  My own sexual identity does not conform to my religious upbringing.  My religious upbringing taught me that gay people are not evil, but that acting on their desire is sinful.  Fortunately, I was able to confidently walk away from my religious upbringing instead of permitting self-loathing to take root anytime I acted consistent with my sexual identity.  

A close friend of mind, however, once found himself drawn into a Christian fellowship.  After months of breaking ties with old friends and committing himself more and more to the cloistered community of the fellowship, his fellow Christians told him he could no longer be part of their fellowship if he did not renounce his homosexuality.  Isolated from the friends and family he had distanced himself from as he was drawn deeper and deeper into the fellowship, he now faced the total isolation that would come with abandoning that fellowship.  The circumstances nearly drove him to suicide.  It is troubling to me that many religions place individuals in this predicament.  Something as innately good as consensual love for another human being should not be transformed into a source of hatred from others, hatred of self, and fear of alienation

^
Wow.  That was a powerful post.   I hope your friend found his way back to his real friends (the kind who love you, warts and all) and not a bunch of phony conformists.   And I agree so much; consensual love for another human being is not 'bad' or 'evil' or 'sinful.'  It has been a lie perpetuated on the human race by primitive cultures who didn't understand, that's all.   The same kind of lie that tells us our species' means of reproduction is 'original sin' and that even thinking about it is somehow 'impure.'   

Utter rubbish.  

^ I 100% agree with that. And indeed I hope your friend managed to escape from the death grip of this cult of psychos.

A "religious" community that requires its members to cut off the contact with friends or family outside their community, does not deserve the label "religion", but is an evil cult, perhaps even a criminal organization, in the same league as mafia, organized crime and such, IMO. I don't think it would be a restriction of freedom of religion, if government strictly observed such cults, and even criminalized them if necessary.

"Religion should unite all hearts and cause wars and disputes to vanish from the face of the earth; it should give birth to spirituality, and bring light and life to every soul. If religion becomes a cause of dislike, hatred and division it would be better to be without it, and to withdraw from such a religion would be a truly religious act. For it is clear that the purpose of a remedy is to cure, but if the remedy only aggravates the complaint, it had better be left alone. Any religion which is not a cause of love and unity is no religion."

And I agree that such toxic ideologies, no matter if religious or not, must be addressed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll just chime in briefly with a few thoughts on this attack since the Prime Minister of Israel made comments that really echo my own feelings.

 

Yes, this was a heinous attack on the LGBT way of life, but I don't view this solely as an attack on gays.  I view this as an attack on all Americans. 

This was an attack on the American way of life.  Gay people whether they believe it or not, are tolerated here.  Maybe not by everyone, but overall, they are.  They have freedoms here that they don't have in other places.  And that can be said by lots of people of different religions, races, creeds, etc. 

 

In other countries, gay people are thrown off roofs.  In some places, even worse.  They were not just attacked because they were gay but because their way of life differed from the way of life of the radical Islamic terrorist. 

ISIS will want you dead just for being different than they are.  So what happened here could happen because a woman isn't covered or a person has the nerve to be Jewish. 

Yes, this time it happened to be gays, but it could be anyone because the freedoms we have here are abhorrent to animals that believe in radical Islamic terrorism.

 

This was an attack on all.  I hope it's dealt with or it will happen again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gay people whether they believe it or not, are tolerated here.

Evidence can be found on a daily basis that that's not so.

Overall they are not tolerated here. Sure, they aren't thrown off the roofs of buildings, but that's not because of some great tolerance for 'different.' It's simply that the rule of law is in force sufficiently here to prevent open murder. 

Rule of law that also allows gays to be fired and/or denied housing in most of the country. Rule of law that prevents a loving same-sex couple from adopting a child. Better to have a child in foster care forever than have parents named Adam and Steve.

That gays are not being hung or set fire to on a daily basis here is certainly something, but don't confuse that with tolerance. Not when a good portion of this country would be happy to go back to racially segregated eateries and water fountains.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, we can get married now, why the hell are we still whining about "equality"?

Thank you for demonstrating the total straight-washing of this massacre that's going on in most of the media.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Evidence can be found on a daily basis that that's not so.

And evidence can be found on a daily basis that it is so as well.  There are countries where being gay gets you killed.  That's one thing radical Muslims do. 

Look at the glass as half full.  They do have rights here.  They do walk down the street and not fear for their lives.  19 states have laws that do prevent against discrimination in housing rentals.  I live in NYC and see gay people all the time.  It's not a perfect world for them, and I don't pretend discrimination does not exist, but comparatively speaking, they're better off in the US than most places.

It is a work in progress, but there is far more tolerance here than most places. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sim   

Yeah, life is probably much better for LGBT people in many Western regions than in all other places of the world, but that doesn't mean there isn't still a very long way to go.

African Americans probably have an advantage of ca. 30 years, but even they are still facing a lot of racism.

I wonder if it will ever vanish entirely. Categorizing people in us vs. them categories is probably very deep in human genome, we all do it, so probably we won't be able to change that ... but what we can change, or so I hope, is the attitude we deem appropriate when facing "them" (better a tolerant distance rather than open hostility). Maybe we'll never get all people to see people of different skin color or sexual orientation as part of their in-group, but at least being different in these regards shouldn't matter any more than being fan of a different sports club or tv show.

Edited by Sim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Take this news however you will, but Senate Democrats in the US have finally ended a nearly 15 hour filibuster on the Senate floor with a 'promise' from Senate Republicans for a vote on gun control legislation that would deny the purchase of weapons to people on FBI terror watch lists and 'no fly' lists.   Legislation that arguably could've prevented this hideous tragedy in Orlando (as that shooter was on an FBI watch list at the time of the shooting): 

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/15/politics/gun-filibuster-senate-democrat/index.html

Personally, I'm a bit surprised that some conservatives are actually (finally?) recognizing the need for new gun laws (even Donald Trump!) that would prevent FBI persons-of-interest from obtaining guns, because it seemed that the NRA (National Rifle Association) used to see ANY gun legislation as a slippery slope to nationwide 'gun grabbing.'   And to think, it only took the WORST MASS SHOOTING in US history to do it.   :eh:

But to be honest, I don't put a whole lot of stock in the GOP Senators' 'promise' to vote on this (this is the same group that still hasn't voted on Obama's supreme court pick, in direct dereliction of their responsibilities) but there you go.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 They do walk down the street and not fear for their lives. 

I'm not sure that's true either, Mateen was incensed at two men kissing in front of his son, and, apparently it was one of the things that finally set him off.

And, after 100 people just killed or wounded, and a man intercepted on the way to a gay gathering with explosives and guns to it, I'm not sure you can say that gays walk down the street today with no fear.  

 

Look at the glass as half full

 

Easier to do when you're straight, no?

 

But to be honest, I don't put a whole lot of stock in the GOP Senators' 'promise' to vote on this (this is the same group that still hasn't voted on Obama's supreme court pick, in direct dereliction of their responsibilities) but there you go.

If I were McConnell, I'd allow the vote simply because I'm safe in  the knowledge that whatever it is dies in the House. 

Edited by prometheus59650

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 They do walk down the street and not fear for their lives. 

I'm not sure that's true either, Mateen was incensed at two men kissing in front of his son, and, apparently it was one of the things that finally set him off.

And, after 100 people just killed or wounded, and a man intercepted on the way to a gay gathering with explosives and guns to it, I'm not sure you can say that gays walk down the street today with no fear.  

 

Look at the glass as half full

 

Easier to do when you're straight, no?

 

But to be honest, I don't put a whole lot of stock in the GOP Senators' 'promise' to vote on this (this is the same group that still hasn't voted on Obama's supreme court pick, in direct dereliction of their responsibilities) but there you go.

If I were McConnell, I'd allow the vote simply because I'm safe in  the knowledge that whatever it is dies in the House. 

^
All of this.

And yes, seeing the 'glass as half full' is very easy to do when you're on the side that pours the liquid....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And to any who might think that gays in America walk the streets unafraid?   Think again.  

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2016/06/us/cnnphotos-orlando-portraits/

I found the story of 61 year old Mark Krueger of Savannah, Georgia to be a typical (and horrific) example.   Yes, in large urban areas, harassment of gays is less common (such as NYC or San Francisco), but in most rural areas or even the suburbs (where I live), gay-bashing is still all too common; even in 'progressive' California. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd love to say all is peachy for gays in Western societies, but just because we gays don't get shot on the spot for our sexual orientation (most of the time, anyway *looks at Orlando and sighs with great sadness*) doesn't mean we can "freely walk down the street". I myself hide my little Jean-Luc heart keychain when a group of young, loud macho men sits down around me in the tram because I fully expect them to start bullying me should they notice it. And if I had a real husband instead of a fictional one, one of the LAST things I would do would be to kiss him or even hold his hand in public - unless we were in a gay club or some other "safe" space. I WOULD be afraid of someone shouting "eww", some "concerned" parent scolding us for "doing this in front of my kid(s)" or whatever other kind of form of verbal bullying there is. In short: It doesn't take a death threat to keep you on constant edge.

Also, it isn't just in real life. The first thing I do when I see an interesting Trekkie on Twitter is check their profile and see if they're "safe" or not  - meaning: I want to make sure they're not an extreme right wing gay hater who will start screaming at me to "leave Picard alone, you disgusting [insert anti-gay slur here]". This kind of "is this person safe to be around or will they attack me" thinking is something that straight people (especially straight men, straight women probably find themselves doing something similar sometimes when it comes to some men) never have to go through and therefore don't even CONSIDER. We gay folks DO constantly have to be careful, no matter WHERE we go.

So, like I said, yes, gays in non-Western societies have it a LOT worse and live in fear of their lives every day, but that does NOT automatically mean that glasses for us in "free  Western societies" are half full. Society is STILL a VERY long way from truly accepting us. (And... TOLERATING is not the same as ACCEPTING.)

And Sehlat is right. The only reason why I can still live where I live (a small village) is because I remain in the closet. If I came out... well, I'd have to leave eventually. People would talk and spread gossip and lies and I'd probably also find a few evil letters in my mailbox. It's better in the cities, yes, but elsewhere the "old" beliefs of "right and wrong" are STILL going strong. NO one in my village is openly gay. It just "doesn't happen". Men who "live alone" are called "eternal bachelors" and everyone is quick to find another subject when talking about them (people KNOW something is "not right", of course, but NO one would EVER ask - it's a mutual silent pact of "don't ask, don't tell" that only works as long as both parties say nothing). An example: There was an older guy in his early 60s, one of those "eternal bachelors", who used to take the same tram I did every morning. We started nodding at each other when we saw each other, I mean we did take the same tram every morning and he was often late and I would remain standing in the tram doorway so that the door wouldn't close and he could run up to the tram and catch it, and eventually we ended up sitting across from one another sometimes, and we just KNEW that we're both gay but neither of us said anything. But it was all there in the undertone (this is what people call 'gaydar', you develop it out of FEAR, not out of FUN) and in the way he looked at me and I looked at him. But neither of us said anything other than casual stuff, because people around us knew him and FOR SURE some would have started talking if we had ended up saying TOO much to each other. He was very nice and kinda cute, and I could tell he thought the same about me, but that was all. No way. Too much at stake.

tl;dr: As a non-straight person, you have to be afraid of the TINIEST things sometimes. And that's why we are all so adamant about the fact that things STILL aren't even REMOTELY right for us and that we STILL aren't treated equally. On paper (not even that, there is still no full gay marriage here in Germany), maybe, but certainly not in real life.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And to any who might think that gays in America walk the streets unafraid?   Think again.  

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2016/06/us/cnnphotos-orlando-portraits/

I found the story of 61 year old Mark Krueger of Savannah, Georgia to be a typical (and horrific) example.   Yes, in large urban areas, harassment of gays is less common (such as NYC or San Francisco), but in most rural areas or even the suburbs (where I live), gay-bashing is still all too common; even in 'progressive' California. 

Yes, things are better here than in other places, but "better" is a pretty low bar when your other options include being stoned to death. 

I'm sorry, but it's just not good enough.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No gun legislation could have prevented this act of Islamic terrorism.  That's like blaming the planes for 9/11.  They would just use bombs, like they did in Boston.  It's the bad people, not the weapons that need to be targeted. 

 

The real point is that this wasn't just about gay people.  This was an attack on the American way of life.  Radical Islamic terrorists hate anyone different from them.  Maybe they hate gays more, but that's really not a high bar.  They would do the same thing to anyone that isn't a radical Islamic terrorist,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd love to say all is peachy for gays in Western societies, but just because we gays don't get shot on the spot for our sexual orientation (most of the time, anyway *looks at Orlando and sighs with great sadness*) doesn't mean we can "freely walk down the street". I myself hide my little Jean-Luc heart keychain when a group of young, loud macho men sits down around me in the tram because I fully expect them to start bullying me should they notice it. And if I had a real husband instead of a fictional one, one of the LAST things I would do would be to kiss him or even hold his hand in public - unless we were in a gay club or some other "safe" space. I WOULD be afraid of someone shouting "eww", some "concerned" parent scolding us for "doing this in front of my kid(s)" or whatever other kind of form of verbal bullying there is. In short: It doesn't take a death threat to keep you on constant edge.

This.

I'm sorry that it is this way for you. I wish it could be different overnight. But know that I and many many other people are accepting. I don't care who you love or want to love. So long as everyone is happy and no one is getting hurt, you should be able to do as you please.

As much as it pains me to say, Mr. Picard's words ARE the words of someone who doesn't feel safe walking down the street. As he has said, just because no one has a literal gun to your head screaming for you to die, that doesn't mean you're accepted. Tolerance is not acceptance. Tolerance often simply boils down to, "I don't wanna go to jail for doing what I think should be done to you."

I have Cerebral Palsy and I have an odd gait. My brain works fine and I'm fine. But I've had teacher speak to me in slow voices as though I had developmental problems. I've had people come up to me and want to heal me. I've had people that barely know me suggest that my life would be better if I had painful surgeries to walk "normally" when I've had surgeons tell me not to because it's a lot of hardship for marginal (if any benefit) benefit.

But people would still have me do it. I've had people ask me if I regret being born. My left foot turns in when I walk, that's pretty much it. In the grand scheme I could have way bigger problems.

All that is is a lack of acceptance, too. I'm not like them so they are uncomfortable. At the very least I have to crave being like them so they feel better.

And that's not all people either...but enough. 

No gun legislation could have prevented this act of Islamic terrorism.  That's like blaming the planes for 9/11.  They would just use bombs, like they did in Boston.  It's the bad people, not the weapons that need to be targeted. 

 

The real point is that this wasn't just about gay people.  This was an attack on the American way of life.  Radical Islamic terrorists hate anyone different from them.  Maybe they hate gays more, but that's really not a high bar.  They would do the same thing to anyone that isn't a radical Islamic terrorist,

Except that it wasn't Islamic Terrorism. That narrative crumbles as we speak. It certainly appears to be the case of a closeted gay man so full of societally-induced self-loathing that he had to make the world feel his pain. Unless significantly more evidence comes to light re: his alleged radicalization, I'm not willing to concede that his pledge of allegiance was anything more than a way to spread more pain by sowing more seeds of discontent.

Or simply a belief that, if I say "ISIS," the investigation stops there because that's the buzzword of the day and no one finds out I'm gay.

And, since the phrase appeals:

These are the things that radical Christian terrorists do. 

Would gun legislation have stopped this guy from attacking Pulse? Well, if everything in this country were eliminated save bolt-action rifles for hunting and revolvers for self-protection, the body count would have been far lower than 50 dead.If you need more than a bolt-action to hunt, you suck. If you need more than six in the revolver you were likely to die anyway.

It'd take a good decade or more of government buybacks to dwindle the supplies, but it worked for Australia. I can get a black market AR-15 there...for about $40K.

 

Edited by prometheus59650

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No gun legislation could have prevented this act of Islamic terrorism.  That's like blaming the planes for 9/11.  They would just use bombs, like they did in Boston.  It's the bad people, not the weapons that need to be targeted. 

Beg to differ.

After 9/11, TSA enacted all kinds of new search and screening capabilities (knives/scissors/box-cutters/razors are no longer allowed aboard on US flights), as well as new regulations requiring mandatory locks on all cockpit doors.  If those had been around before 9/11?  The attacks would've had to have been carried on some different (and arguably less lethal) way.    The Boston marathon bombings were horrific yes, but they had a far smaller lethality rate than 9/11.

Not to mention that current gun laws allow someone on an FBI terror and/or no-fly list to LEGALLY purchase a gun.   Closing that simple loophole might've prevented this particular mass shooting.  

So yes, it IS the weapons and the laws that need to be addressed.

 

The real point is that this wasn't just about gay people.  This was an attack on the American way of life.  Radical Islamic terrorists hate anyone different from them.  Maybe they hate gays more, but that's really not a high bar.  They would do the same thing to anyone that isn't a radical Islamic terrorist,

I agree.

But the problem here is that whenever you kill radical Islamists en masse (via bombings or drone strikes) or try to bar/ban them from the same legal rights as others within the US?  You're playing right into the ISIS handbook.   You become a self-fulfilling prophecy and wind up being part of an ISIS recruitment video (ala Donald Trump). 

This horrific slaughter of human beings was an attack on our way of life, yes, but we also have to acknowledge our role in creating this monster (ISIS was largely born of the US de-Baathification policy in Iraq; which laid off all policemen, soldiers, and government officials who happened to be members of Saddam Hussein's ruling Baath Party, thus creating an army of trained, armed and VERY pissed off insurgents; not the smartest idea...).

The best solution to the Middle East is to stop meddling and making matters worse.   Get off of foreign energy for good (our only real interest in these countries is what oil we can extract from them), and start developing renewables here on a Manhattan Project-level, to where we are completely energy independent and can wave goodbye to the oil mongers of the Middle East with our middle finger... 

Energy innovation and independence are not only good "American" ideas, but they're also the keys to getting the hell of this permanent Middle East quagmire we're currently stuck in.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But the problem here is that whenever you kill radical Islamists or try to bar/ban them from the same legal rights as others?  You're playing right into the ISIS handbook.  

Donald Trump is such a top notch recruiter, I'm surprised he's not on their payroll.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But the problem here is that whenever you kill radical Islamists or try to bar/ban them from the same legal rights as others?  You're playing right into the ISIS handbook.  

Donald Trump is such a top notch recruiter, I'm surprised he's not on their payroll.

Trump's proposed 'policies' will only enflame; they're not solutions.   HE is not a solution.  

I'd love to say all is peachy for gays in Western societies, but just because we gays don't get shot on the spot for our sexual orientation (most of the time, anyway *looks at Orlando and sighs with great sadness*) doesn't mean we can "freely walk down the street". I myself hide my little Jean-Luc heart keychain when a group of young, loud macho men sits down around me in the tram because I fully expect them to start bullying me should they notice it. And if I had a real husband instead of a fictional one, one of the LAST things I would do would be to kiss him or even hold his hand in public - unless we were in a gay club or some other "safe" space. I WOULD be afraid of someone shouting "eww", some "concerned" parent scolding us for "doing this in front of my kid(s)" or whatever other kind of form of verbal bullying there is. In short: It doesn't take a death threat to keep you on constant edge.

Also, it isn't just in real life. The first thing I do when I see an interesting Trekkie on Twitter is check their profile and see if they're "safe" or not  - meaning: I want to make sure they're not an extreme right wing gay hater who will start screaming at me to "leave Picard alone, you disgusting [insert anti-gay slur here]". This kind of "is this person safe to be around or will they attack me" thinking is something that straight people (especially straight men, straight women probably find themselves doing something similar sometimes when it comes to some men) never have to go through and therefore don't even CONSIDER. We gay folks DO constantly have to be careful, no matter WHERE we go.

So, like I said, yes, gays in non-Western societies have it a LOT worse and live in fear of their lives every day, but that does NOT automatically mean that glasses for us in "free  Western societies" are half full. Society is STILL a VERY long way from truly accepting us. (And... TOLERATING is not the same as ACCEPTING.)

And Sehlat is right. The only reason why I can still live where I live (a small village) is because I remain in the closet. If I came out... well, I'd have to leave eventually. People would talk and spread gossip and lies and I'd probably also find a few evil letters in my mailbox. It's better in the cities, yes, but elsewhere the "old" beliefs of "right and wrong" are STILL going strong. NO one in my village is openly gay. It just "doesn't happen". Men who "live alone" are called "eternal bachelors" and everyone is quick to find another subject when talking about them (people KNOW something is "not right", of course, but NO one would EVER ask - it's a mutual silent pact of "don't ask, don't tell" that only works as long as both parties say nothing). An example: There was an older guy in his early 60s, one of those "eternal bachelors", who used to take the same tram I did every morning. We started nodding at each other when we saw each other, I mean we did take the same tram every morning and he was often late and I would remain standing in the tram doorway so that the door wouldn't close and he could run up to the tram and catch it, and eventually we ended up sitting across from one another sometimes, and we just KNEW that we're both gay but neither of us said anything. But it was all there in the undertone (this is what people call 'gaydar', you develop it out of FEAR, not out of FUN) and in the way he looked at me and I looked at him. But neither of us said anything other than casual stuff, because people around us knew him and FOR SURE some would have started talking if we had ended up saying TOO much to each other. He was very nice and kinda cute, and I could tell he thought the same about me, but that was all. No way. Too much at stake.

tl;dr: As a non-straight person, you have to be afraid of the TINIEST things sometimes. And that's why we are all so adamant about the fact that things STILL aren't even REMOTELY right for us and that we STILL aren't treated equally. On paper (not even that, there is still no full gay marriage here in Germany), maybe, but certainly not in real life.

 

I hope you know that if we ever met?  The only danger you might face would be a big ol' hug.  ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope you know that if we ever met?  The only danger you might face would be a big ol' hug.  ;)

I'm not much into being touched, but I'd let you hug me (and I don't say this to many people). Briefly, but I'd let you. ;)

Just make sure he's well fed before you get that close.

You know how those Sehlats are. :)

I wouldn't make much of a good meal anyway... but I'd be careful, of course. Thanks for the warning. Haha!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unfortunately, the entire US is not going to go into TSA mode, and it can't.  And we are not going to ignore the Constitution for terrorists.  Besides, in cities with the most stringent gun control, they have the most gun crimes.

A fanatic like this would have just used a bomb instead. 

Likewise, gays are not alone in being the target for Islamic terrorists.  This isn't a gay problem.  This is an everybody problem. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A fanatic like this would have just used a bomb instead. 

Bombs are actually difficult and dangerous to make, instructions on the Internet or not.

Way easier just to go to Wally World for my death machine, 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kenman   

Unfortunately, the entire US is not going to go into TSA mode, and it can't.  And we are not going to ignore the Constitution for terrorists.  Besides, in cities with the most stringent gun control, they have the most gun crimes.

Lies and bull. This is a talking point started by the NRA and gun manufacturers and pro-gun politicians to avoid ever doing anything to slow down their profits.  People love to say "Chicago has strict gun laws, look at them!" but when you DO look at them you discover a lot of their guns are being purchased legally in neighboring areas with less strict gun laws!

We need better gun laws.  Close up loopholes. Guaranteed background checks.  Make sure that ONLY those who are seemingly just looking for responsible gun ownership are getting em.  I'd personally love it if every gun in the world was wiped from existence, along with the knowledge of how to make em...but that isn't going to happen, so the LEAST we can do is make more responsible gun laws and hope that we can reduce the issues. 

We can't wipe out crime, but you can make it F-IN hard for the criminals to commit crimes.  I am so sick of the do-nothing attitude when it comes to guns.  "Oh we can't ignore our precious constitution written by a bunch of slave owners 250 years ago! Unless of course we want to pass a patriot act and throw half of it out the window anyhow! Only when it serves my nefarious purposes is it worthwhile to throw it out!"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lies and bull. This is a talking point started by the NRA and gun manufacturers and pro-gun politicians to avoid ever doing anything to slow down their profits.  People love to say "Chicago has strict gun laws, look at them!" but when you DO look at them you discover a lot of their guns are being purchased legally in neighboring areas with less strict gun laws!

This.

Chicago's gun problem can be traced to many states not Illinois.

  I am so sick of the do-nothing attitude when it comes to guns

 

If a bunch of dead white kids in Sandy Hook got no change, I don't expect Orlando to do any better when it comes to waking people up. 

Edited by prometheus59650

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unfortunately, the entire US is not going to go into TSA mode, and it can't.  And we are not going to ignore the Constitution for terrorists.  Besides, in cities with the most stringent gun control, they have the most gun crimes.

A fanatic like this would have just used a bomb instead. 

So again; where's the harm in making it illegal for someone on a terror watch/no-fly list to purchase a gun?  That's what's being proposed here.  
If you won't let them fly, why in the hell would you let them buy military style hardware & ammunition?   Where's the logic in that?

Unfortunately, the entire US is not going to go into TSA mode, and it can't.  And we are not going to ignore the Constitution for terrorists.  Besides, in cities with the most stringent gun control, they have the most gun crimes.

Lies and bull. This is a talking point started by the NRA and gun manufacturers and pro-gun politicians to avoid ever doing anything to slow down their profits.  People love to say "Chicago has strict gun laws, look at them!" but when you DO look at them you discover a lot of their guns are being purchased legally in neighboring areas with less strict gun laws!

We need better gun laws.  Close up loopholes. Guaranteed background checks.  Make sure that ONLY those who are seemingly just looking for responsible gun ownership are getting em.  I'd personally love it if every gun in the world was wiped from existence, along with the knowledge of how to make em...but that isn't going to happen, so the LEAST we can do is make more responsible gun laws and hope that we can reduce the issues. 

We can't wipe out crime, but you can make it F-IN hard for the criminals to commit crimes.  I am so sick of the do-nothing attitude when it comes to guns.  "Oh we can't ignore our precious constitution written by a bunch of slave owners 250 years ago! Unless of course we want to pass a patriot act and throw half of it out the window anyhow! Only when it serves my nefarious purposes is it worthwhile to throw it out!"

The 2nd amendment was written at a time when the most powerful hand weapon was a musket.   It NEEDS to be updated.  Not gutted, but updated.   It's not holy scripture (if it were, it'd be much easier for people to ignore it).

We take such dramatic measures to ensure personal safety in this country.  If a car seat kills a  child?  It is immediately recalled.   If a car airbag causes injuries?  It too is recalled.   If fluorocarbons in old deodorants punch a hole in the ozone layer?  They are replaced with new chemicals that don't (ditto with freon refrigerants).   If an airplane is found to be vulnerable to hijacking in flight?  It's cockpit doors are ALL equipped with deadbolt locking mechanisms and airport security is heightened dramatically.   If lead paint and gasoline are found to be toxic?  They're phased out.   Seatbelt usage is now mandatory in cars/trucks.  If motorcyclists crack their skulls open?  Helmets also become mandatory (a law in my state which personally saved my life).   

Yet if a gunman sprays a nightclub or a school full of toddlers with multiple rounds from a military-grade automatic weapon?   It's another day at the office.  Well, I'm sorry but enough is enough.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They do walk down the street and not fear for their lives.

As a matter of fact, we do. That fear is ALWAYS there. From pretty much the moment we learn to speak we hear that being gay is wrong, immoral, evil, that gays will destroy the fabric of society and are deserving of imprisonment or worse. If you're not gay you can't understand what it's like to live with this fear, the constant stress and pressure of having to come out again and again and again, or worse to have to keep it hidden in the knowledge you could be thrown from your home or your job for no other reason than being gay. Even the most out-and-proud queer person you will ever meet will think twice before holding their partner's hand in the street or giving them a kiss goodbye at the station. The fear of discovery and reprisal will never leave us, because society has taught us to be SCARED of the reactions of straight people. The tension, the instinct to protect ourselves - that literal tensing of our bodies in preparation for your reaction before we take that tiny step to show our partners the smallest amount of affection in public - it will always be with us.

Don't try and minimise that just because we're not allowed to be murdered at this point in time in this part of the world. People out there want us dead and they're not afraid to make it so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites