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GustavoLeao

DC Movies Crisis ? JUSTICE LEAGUE in Chaos ?

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Seth Grahame-Smith Departs THE FLASH Movie Due To "Creative Differences" With Warner Bros.
 
The Flash movie has lost its director, as Pride & Prejudice & Zombies scribe Seth Grahame-Smith has decided to part ways with Warner Bros. Will the studio keep his screenplay though?
 
RUMOR: AQUAMAN Director James Wan May Be Next In Line To Depart The DC Films Universe
 
Is the DC Movies Universe facing a Crisis? According to a new report, there's an awful lot of chaos behind the scenes of Justice League, while James Wan could be about to move on from directing Aquaman.
 
Edited by GustavoLeao

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The real question now becomes--what are the creative differences?  Did the studio get the message that BVS sucked, MOS sucked, and because they are 0 for 2, they need a complete overhaul because Zack Snyder's vision sucks?  Or was it the DIRECTOR who realized that?

 

We the fan, want the director to be in the wrong here. 

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The real question now becomes--what are the creative differences?  Did the studio get the message that BVS sucked, MOS sucked, and because they are 0 for 2, they need a complete overhaul because Zack Snyder's vision sucks?  Or was it the DIRECTOR who realized that?

 

We the fan, want the director to be in the wrong here. 

And the writers.

The director parlays the vision; the writer is the seed of that vision.   Overhaul the entire creative team, if you want to do it right.  Firing the director is like treating throat cancer with sore throat lozenges and hot tea; it may feel good, but it's hardly a cure.

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The real question now becomes--what are the creative differences?  Did the studio get the message that BVS sucked, MOS sucked, and because they are 0 for 2, they need a complete overhaul because Zack Snyder's vision sucks?  Or was it the DIRECTOR who realized that?

 

We the fan, want the director to be in the wrong here. 

And the writers.

The director parlays the vision; the writer is the seed of that vision.   Overhaul the entire creative team, if you want to do it right.  Firing the director is like treating throat cancer with sore throat lozenges and hot tea; it may feel good, but it's hardly a cure.

This.

All of it's tainted. The writers are generally only doing what the studio wants done. The vision is completely wrong and it's reaching the point where people are going to stop giving them chances. MoS was a critical disappointment and box office 'meh', and frankly, what should have been a watershed event for the DCEU (BvS) didn't do all that much better financially.

Listen to the rumor though. There's infighting because they were caught completely off guard by the critical reception and the box office thud and now they're finger pointing. The problem is right there. They do not understand why they failed. They think they have a winning interpretation of their characters and the universe and 'What's wrong with these people?'

They still do not understand that their problems are in the mirror. 

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The real question now becomes--what are the creative differences?  Did the studio get the message that BVS sucked, MOS sucked, and because they are 0 for 2, they need a complete overhaul because Zack Snyder's vision sucks?  Or was it the DIRECTOR who realized that?

 

We the fan, want the director to be in the wrong here. 

And the writers.

The director parlays the vision; the writer is the seed of that vision.   Overhaul the entire creative team, if you want to do it right.  Firing the director is like treating throat cancer with sore throat lozenges and hot tea; it may feel good, but it's hardly a cure.

This.

All of it's tainted. The writers are generally only doing what the studio wants done. The vision is completely wrong and it's reaching the point where people are going to stop giving them chances. MoS was a critical disappointment and box office 'meh', and frankly, what should have been a watershed event for the DCEU (BvS) didn't do all that much better financially.

Listen to the rumor though. There's infighting because they were caught completely off guard by the critical reception and the box office thud and now they're finger pointing. The problem is right there. They do not understand why they failed. They think they have a winning interpretation of their characters and the universe and 'What's wrong with these people?'

They still do not understand that their problems are in the mirror. 

Incredible.   I don't know if it's arrogance or defensiveness but either way; the writing is on the wall in bright neon colors.   
The sad part in this whole mess is that the current team did have a few interesting ideas here and there that were never quite fleshed out well.   Too bad...

I see yet another reboot in the DC movie franchise future...

giphy.gif

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Part of the problem is, I think, that Snyder thinks he's a little bit of all that and, based on his track record, he's not.

And, while I generally don't get onboard with reboot after reboot DC needs one for, well, almost everything (save Batfleck, which was a brighter bright spot than even I expected.)

Edited by prometheus59650

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Part of the problem is, I think, that Snyder thinks he's a little bit of all that and, based on his track record, he's not.

And, while I generally don't get onboard with reboot after reboot DC needs one for, well, almost everything (save Batfleck, which was a brighter bright spot than even I expected.)

Agreed.

Batfleck was the strongest single element of BvS, IMO.    And yes, DC needs a serious overhaul.   They might want to wait a couple of years and think very carefully about their next cinematic move...

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I really wish they would get the team behind the JL and JLU Animated Series. They understood the characters and would provide a more positive portrayal.

The big mistake with this DC interpretation is that they based it on the successful DK Trilogy not understanding that those parameters were very narrowly defined. In that construct, there is no space for many of the fantastic characters that comprise the DCU. It's somber. Lacks joy. There is no sense of balance. 

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Part of the problem is, I think, that Snyder thinks he's a little bit of all that and, based on his track record, he's not.

And, while I generally don't get onboard with reboot after reboot DC needs one for, well, almost everything (save Batfleck, which was a brighter bright spot than even I expected.)

Agreed.

Batfleck was the strongest single element of BvS, IMO.    And yes, DC needs a serious overhaul.   They might want to wait a couple of years and think very carefully about their next cinematic move...

They won't though. They won't because they know that, sooner or later the comic book movie gravy train will pull into the last station and, as they see it, Marvel is taking all their money.

I really wish they would get the team behind the JL and JLU Animated Series. They understood the characters and would provide a more positive portrayal.

The big mistake with this DC interpretation is that they based it on the successful DK Trilogy not understanding that those parameters were very narrowly defined. In that construct, there is no space for many of the fantastic characters that comprise the DCU. It's somber. Lacks joy. There is no sense of balance. 

Very much this. Darker works for Batman because Batman. You try to darken Superman or Wonder Woman in the same way and they just become souless bastardizations of the character.

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Part of the problem is, I think, that Snyder thinks he's a little bit of all that and, based on his track record, he's not.

And, while I generally don't get onboard with reboot after reboot DC needs one for, well, almost everything (save Batfleck, which was a brighter bright spot than even I expected.)

Agreed.

Batfleck was the strongest single element of BvS, IMO.    And yes, DC needs a serious overhaul.   They might want to wait a couple of years and think very carefully about their next cinematic move...

They won't though. They won't because they know that, sooner or later the comic book movie gravy train will pull into the last station and, as they see it, Marvel is taking all their money.

I really wish they would get the team behind the JL and JLU Animated Series. They understood the characters and would provide a more positive portrayal.

The big mistake with this DC interpretation is that they based it on the successful DK Trilogy not understanding that those parameters were very narrowly defined. In that construct, there is no space for many of the fantastic characters that comprise the DCU. It's somber. Lacks joy. There is no sense of balance. 

Very much this. Darker works for Batman because Batman. You try to darken Superman or Wonder Woman in the same way and they just become souless bastardizations of the character.

Even Aquaman (who admittedly looks pretty badass in the form of Jason Momoa) is in danger of becoming Batman of the Sea.

I understand their impulse to want to copy the formula for their most successful cinematic property (with TDK trilogy) but that formula doesn't apply to all characters in the DC stable.   What the Marvel movies have that the DC movies really need is a sense of fun.   Batman v Superman was about as 'fun' as Uncle Mortimer's funeral.

 

 

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Quote of the day: "Batman of the Sea". 

Probably tastes like chicken anyway. 

 

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Quote of the day: "Batman of the Sea". 

Probably tastes like chicken anyway. 

LOL!  Just don't call him chicken... :P

 

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My assumption has been that Snyder has been the equivalent to a show runner on TV.  He's the driving force.  The writers may do a lot of the writing, but they are writing based on his vision.  Yes, I would change the entire creative team.  I would seriously consider the TV team, but in all honesty, I would be fine with the animation team as well.  Bruce Timm knows his stuff.

I don't understand why they don't understand why they failed.  It's very obvious to anyone who grew up with these amazing characters.  Once you've seen these characters done right, it's painful to see them done wrong.

 

I hate the idea, but I do think another reboot is in order.  The problem is, how?  It would be very hard to get this universe going without establishing Superman again.  And we don't really need to see Krypton blow up again for another 20 years. 

Maybe they should do what X Men did and reboot from within.  Something like Flashpoint, except that the reboot FIXES the problems.

At least you don't have to recast that way.  Superman is raised by a more traditional Kents, and becomes a more traditional Superman. 

No Zod invasion, so his intro to the public is much more in line with Reeve did--an alien that saves people, instead of the world.

I still would recast Batman as a younger actor, but this time, he won't have some urge to murder Superman.

I don't know if this universe is salvageable or not.  It may not be, but we do need to go with Justice League.

Another idea would just to start with how the Justice League came together.  You can establish your heroes that way.  Something similar to the cartoon pilot though not exactly the same. Start with Superman, show he's this inspiring hero.  Have him stop one of his rogues in Metropolis and show the people care about him.

Then move to Batman, who is being a detective, discovering a covert threat that could affect the world.  He and Superman already know each other.  In the background, or in a montage, we see other heroes doing their thing.  The A listers.  Flash & Green Lantern are teaming up on something too.  Wonder Woman will be seen on Themyscira, about to embark on her mission to help humanity.  We could go two routes here--either she has her mother's blessing, or like the cartoon, she does not, and goes to help anyway.

Have the threat extend to the oceans, involving Aquaman. 

You'd need one more hero to make 7.  The movie team chose Cyborg, but I would actually save him for a Teen Titans movie, which would be a follow up to this one.  I would consider a second Green Lantern (John Stewart), but I would likely want J'onn. 

 

Darkseid would probably be my villain here.  The key would be tying in the cases all our heroes are working on together so it brings them together.  Maybe what I would do is at the beginning of the movie, our heroes are fighting off Darkseid's lieutenants.  Then when all hell breaks loose, the team comes together and there's a big showdown with Superman and Darkseid. 

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I hate the idea, but I do think another reboot is in order.  The problem is, how?  It would be very hard to get this universe going without establishing Superman again.  And we don't really need to see Krypton blow up again for another 20 years. 

I think you just easily dispense with the Batman/Superman origin stories, and no one would care.   Everyone on Earth (except maybe for a few isolated tribes in Central America) all know their origin stories front and back.   Just jump in with a good story and the audience can follow.   The characters can throw out a few lines about 'when my planet blew up' or when 'Joe Chill killed my parents, Alfred raised me, blah, blah..'   and that would more than suffice.

As much as the casting of the new Spiderman was a disappointment to me, I'm glad that at least they're not devoting a third movie to his origin story.  Seriously, just how many times do you tell the story of a kid getting bitten by a spider?  It looks like the new "Civil War" movie just throws him into this universe.  That would be my template for a Justice League movie; just jump in with your core cast of characters (or at the very least, Superman & Batman) sans origins stories, and let the adventure begin.   These characters are world-renowned icons.   They need origin stories about as much as Kim Kardashian needs another selfie. 

The audience will get it.

 

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You will be pleased with Tom Holland as Peter Parker !

He is sssoooooooo much better than Maguire and Garfield, his Spidey is just great in CIVIL WAR. And I am a huge Spidey fan.

Gus

 

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It sounds like then you're a proponent of starting with Justice League.  I could see that.  Recast and reboot, but don't restart Superman and Batman.

 

Set the tone for them in the Justice League movie.  Then maybe, branch out. 

 

With one big universe, movies can focus on individual heroes, but have other characters.  They can make the stories a little more epic that way.  Hard to beat a GOOD World's Finest story.

A Superman movie could be the origin of Kara-Zor El.  The modern comic story is actually really good, and you can deal first with Superman bonding with his cousin, and then being overprotective, to the point Wonder Woman steps in and takes over her training with the Amazons.  At the end, you have a hero that choose to be like Superman because she admires him, not just because they are family.

 

Each movie can bring in many more new heroes, like the Teen Titans, the Time Masters, the Legion of Superheroes.


DC has so much good in it--they need to use it.

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Somewhat going back to the title of thread, I'd rather they suspend any new movies until they figure out what's wrong. Better to wait and get something good than something awful or mediocre. 

I don't understand why they don't understand why they failed.  It's very obvious to anyone who grew up with these amazing characters.  Once you've seen these characters done right, it's painful to see them done wrong.

 

I hate the idea, but I do think another reboot is in order.  The problem is, how?  It would be very hard to get this universe going without establishing Superman again.  And we don't really need to see Krypton blow up again for another 20 years. 

To the first point, there's a Social Psych concept called Groupthink. This is where a group of leaders are insulated from information from the outside world. They make decisions without updated information. Usually you have a 'gatekeeper'; someone actively discouraging updated information since it doesn't go along with the groupthink. This is how easily a group of executives makes atrocious decisions. In this case, the weight of feedback(money here) is overwhelming. They can't ignore it. Something went wrong. With MoS, it could be easily explained as saying "there was no Batman and the masses like Batman". Ok, so you get Batman to be in the next movie....but it doesn't do well either. Right now, these people are scrambling for answers and looking for scapegoats. You don't get to a good decision making space when you're panicking. 

To the second point, instead of a hard reboot like Spidey did from Maguire to the other guy, I think they can do a 'soft' reboot within, if that makes sense. Use the same actors but change the dynamics of the storyline and mood. The overall vision needs to change. If they're lucky they'll get there. They'll see that the 300 type style or the 'realistic' DK Trilogy approach doesn't work for DC. 

Is Suicide Squad up next? Personally, I don't think that will do well either. It's too late to change that one but hopefully that will be enough evidence for them that something is not working out. 

Edited by Nombrecomun

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The problem with a soft reboot is you still have a 45 year old Batman, and I think that's a mistake.  But then again, these are characters that can be replaced with different actors at any point.  Like Bond.

 

So Batman can get younger, especially if they IGNORE BvS completely, change the tone, and just start doing things right.

 

 

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Batfleck's going to be around for a while.

Sorry.

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He probably is because he's a big name, but what I'm saying is, they don't have to reboot every time they recast.  Someone else can take over the role.  Watch Marvel do it first and DC copy.

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He probably is because he's a big name, but what I'm saying is, they don't have to reboot every time they recast.  Someone else can take over the role.  Watch Marvel do it first and DC copy.

You mean like Hulk? Or that army guy friend of Iron Man?

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He probably is because he's a big name, but what I'm saying is, they don't have to reboot every time they recast.  Someone else can take over the role.  Watch Marvel do it first and DC copy.

I absolutely agree that they don't have to reboot every time.

That said, Affleck's likely staying in the role because he was one of the few bright spots in BvS. Quite frankly, I liked him better than Bale.

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Batfleck's going to be around for a while.

Sorry.

He was the only thing about that movie that really worked.   I'd rather see a rebooted solo Batman movie wiith Affleck than a full-on JL movie, to be honest...

He probably is because he's a big name, but what I'm saying is, they don't have to reboot every time they recast.  Someone else can take over the role.  Watch Marvel do it first and DC copy.

I absolutely agree that they don't have to reboot every time.

That said, Affleck's likely staying in the role because he was one of the few bright spots in BvS. Quite frankly, I liked him better than Bale.

It wouldn't be the first time a reboot didn't involve a full cast reboot.

Judi Dench remained as "M" in "Casino Royale" (and remained for two more Bond movies afterward); she'd been playing "M" since 1995's "Goldeneye."  Chris O'Donnell continued to play Robin against a recast Batman in the ill-conceived "Batman & Robin."  

Keep Affleck... lose everything else.  And yes, sadly, that would include Henry Cavill too; admittedly the dour Superman portrayal is not his fault, but he never really convinced me otherwise either. 

 

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Crisis in Infinite DCs. 

Wait, what - there was a Flash movie without using the TV Flash? Why? Their TV universe works! Or am I reading that wrong?

Truth is, I have so little interest in the DCCU because it's been so bad for so long. They're idiots. A reboot would only work if they set fire to absolutely everything and rebuilt from the ground up. 

Getting their TV people to rebuild it wouldn't be a bad idea, but I'm sure they're happy where they are. 

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Crisis in Infinite DCs. 

Wait, what - there was a Flash movie without using the TV Flash? Why? Their TV universe works! Or am I reading that wrong?

Truth is, I have so little interest in the DCCU because it's been so bad for so long. They're idiots. A reboot would only work if they set fire to absolutely everything and rebuilt from the ground up. 

Getting their TV people to rebuild it wouldn't be a bad idea, but I'm sure they're happy where they are. 

Not yet. The movie is coming out later and they cast someone else in that role. DC has made clear that the movies have no relation to the tv shows; a HUGE mistake imo. While not great, Arrow and especially The Flash have been consistently more fun than the movies. 

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