John32070

Should they have left Torres split into two people after Faces?

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One of the more interesting early Voyager episodes gave us a Voyager take on TOS' The Enemy Within when we see B'lanna somehow split into two separating her human and Klingon sides (I'll have to watch again to see for sure how the Vidiian scientist exactly did it). I was thinking how more interesting it might have been to either have left her split or perhaps even to have left her fully human (I'm sure Roxann might not have minded that). It also might have worked to have left her human if this episode had been done later like season 5 or 6. I know they dealt with her dual heritage a number of times (like when she found out she was going to have a baby) but had it been done later it would have been interesting too. Just a thought. 

I sure hope we would never become like the Vidiians (in terms of the bad stuff we'd do just to stay alive) if Earth were ever hit with a worldwide plague.

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One of the more interesting early Voyager episodes gave us a Voyager take on TOS' The Enemy Within when we see B'lanna somehow split into two separating her human and Klingon sides (I'll have to watch again to see for sure how the Vidiian scientist exactly did it). I was thinking how more interesting it might have been to either have left her split or perhaps even to have left her fully human (I'm sure Roxann might not have minded that). It also might have worked to have left her human if this episode had been done later like season 5 or 6. I know they dealt with her dual heritage a number of times (like when she found out she was going to have a baby) but had it been done later it would have been interesting too. Just a thought. 

I sure hope we would never become like the Vidiians (in terms of the bad stuff we'd do just to stay alive) if Earth were ever hit with a worldwide plague.

I remember that episode; I haven't seen it since it was first broadcast, but if memory serves wasn't Torres a lot weaker and timid without her Klingon half?   Kind of like Kirk without his negative side in Enemy Within.   I just remember human halved-Torres being a pile of nerves during that one, and to be honest I found that a bit ridiculous.  

Were the writers trying to say that none of her human heritage has ANY aggression whatsoever??

faces_436.jpg

We've seen many times throughout ST where humans went toe-to-toe with Klingons and even managed to kicked their bony, shaggy butts (Ben Sisko, Jean-Luc Picard, Will Riker... and even the Trill Jadzia Dax).   Human Torres had NONE of that in her at ALL?   Oh well... I digress.

Should she have remained split in two; that's the question.   The only answer I can give is the one that I gave for a later VGR that dealt with the opposite problem; a fusion of two disparate beings into one ("Tuvix"); if the individual beings were not in danger of dying from the separation and if they wished to remain separated?  Then yes; I say leave them as they are.   

The big difference in "Tuvix" is that the fused being had a unique will and WANTED to stay alive (he was a fusion; like Nancy Hedford and The Companion in TOS' "Metamorphosis").  

But I don't recall either human or Klingon Torres expressing a genuine desire to remain separated.   However, if they did?   I say respect the wishes of the separated beings.  

faces_441.jpg

Kirk's case in "Enemy..." was different because both halves were dying, and neither could physically survive without the other.   Not to mention his negative side would've been cracking dilithium in a prison mine for sexual assault against Yeoman Rand... or should've been, anyway.   Even Spock should've been made to pay a visit to the Enterprise's Crewman Resources' office for sensitivity training regarding his nasty remark he made to Rand on the bridge at the end of the episode ("The imposter had some uh... interesting qualities.  Wouldn't you say, Yeoman?").  

theenemywithin365.jpg

Honestly, that was the only time I was ever sincerely creeped out by Spock (he's my favorite character).   At the time the show was made, that remark probably sounded okay (this was deep in the "Mad Men" era), but today it sounds more like this...

eb0a4-cyehzsl.gif

 I think I have to Netflix VGR "Faces" and re-watch it carefully; I don't remember if either half were in danger of dying without the other.

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kenman   

I seem to recall the point of the episode was that while Torres struggled with her mixed heritage (preferring her human side to her Klingon side), this event made her realize that both sides were what made her, well, her.  I think. It's hard to remember. But I was pretty sure that was the point, and if so...then, no, they should not have remained separated. On a series level, I think it would've been boring to remove that aspect of her character (not that the show and her character weren't often boring in spite of this). So I think for the most part, keeping them separated would've been a mistake.

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Locutus   

I seem to recall the point of the episode was that while Torres struggled with her mixed heritage (preferring her human side to her Klingon side), this event made her realize that both sides were what made her, well, her.  I think. It's hard to remember. But I was pretty sure that was the point, and if so...then, no, they should not have remained separated. On a series level, I think it would've been boring to remove that aspect of her character (not that the show and her character weren't often boring in spite of this). So I think for the most part, keeping them separated would've been a mistake.

I remember the message being along those lines of growing to appreciate all aspects of yourself.  Too bad!  They really should have killed her human half, but kept Torres' Klingon self alive.  Message being: abandon your human selves, we should all be Klingons!!!

Image result for klingon celebrating

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kenman   

I seem to recall the point of the episode was that while Torres struggled with her mixed heritage (preferring her human side to her Klingon side), this event made her realize that both sides were what made her, well, her.  I think. It's hard to remember. But I was pretty sure that was the point, and if so...then, no, they should not have remained separated. On a series level, I think it would've been boring to remove that aspect of her character (not that the show and her character weren't often boring in spite of this). So I think for the most part, keeping them separated would've been a mistake.

I remember the message being along those lines of growing to appreciate all aspects of yourself.  Too bad!  They really should have killed her human half, but kept Torres' Klingon self alive.  Message being: abandon your human selves, we should all be Klingons!!!

Image result for klingon celebrating

Eh...got enough Klingons from Worf and co. throughout TNG and DS9. 

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I seem to recall the point of the episode was that while Torres struggled with her mixed heritage (preferring her human side to her Klingon side), this event made her realize that both sides were what made her, well, her.  I think. It's hard to remember. But I was pretty sure that was the point, and if so...then, no, they should not have remained separated. On a series level, I think it would've been boring to remove that aspect of her character (not that the show and her character weren't often boring in spite of this). So I think for the most part, keeping them separated would've been a mistake.

I remember the message being along those lines of growing to appreciate all aspects of yourself.  Too bad!  They really should have killed her human half, but kept Torres' Klingon self alive.  Message being: abandon your human selves, we should all be Klingons!!!

Image result for klingon celebrating

Eh...got enough Klingons from Worf and co. throughout TNG and DS9. 

Out of curiosity I re-watched "Faces" this morning, since I haven't seen this episode in over 20 years.

First, it was kind of weird getting back into VGR, but more on that later.  Regarding B'Lanna and her split, I thought the human side was far more interesting; she was vulnerable and had shadings.  There was also the emergent resolve that slowly came away as she put fear behind and focused on the mission.   I could've imagine THAT character being the one who made it out alive.   She might almost be analogous to a combat soldier who suffers PTSD; she went in tough and confident (as one being), but emerged more frightened and vulnerable from her experience.   She could still retain her brilliant engineering knowledge, but now she's a more vulnerable character; like someone who's come back with a leg missing.  A piece of her is forever gone.   But alas, the EMH fixes her up to where she'll be the exact person she was the week before; with zero growth whatsoever.   Ugh!  That maddening reset button.   A curse on most of ST, really...

As for the Klingon half?  That got old really fast.  Her exaggerated, one-word-at-a-time delivery ("Why-Have-You-Brought-Me-Here?!") became a bit much after the first ten minutes or so.   While her human half was subtle and vulnerable, the Klingon half was kind of the standard 'warrior-woman' Klingon we'd seen a million times on Star Trek.   I understand the director/actor had to make the Klingon half an exaggeration because of time constraints, selling-the-point, etc.  but by today's standards of fantasy television, it feels kind of like a throwback to '60s style TV acting.

I did enjoy some of the more perverse touches; the Vidiian scientist who develops an infatuation with Klingon Torres, and puts on a dead crewman's face to impress her.   That was creepy to the Nth degree.   More scenes like that, please!  

There was also confusion (on MY part, anyway) regarding the condition of the Vidiians; we're told that they use other species for manual labor because they're weak.   But the guards around the barracks seemed mighty strong; esp. as they barked orders and shoved people around like DS9 Jem'Hadar troops.   Oh well...

Anyway, in short I would've been OK if Klingon Torres' DNA never got reintegrated (post-mortem) or never even if she never made it back to the ship...

 

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Sim   

I seem to recall the point of the episode was that while Torres struggled with her mixed heritage (preferring her human side to her Klingon side), this event made her realize that both sides were what made her, well, her.  I think. It's hard to remember. But I was pretty sure that was the point, and if so...then, no, they should not have remained separated. On a series level, I think it would've been boring to remove that aspect of her character (not that the show and her character weren't often boring in spite of this). So I think for the most part, keeping them separated would've been a mistake.

I remember the message being along those lines of growing to appreciate all aspects of yourself.  Too bad!  They really should have killed her human half, but kept Torres' Klingon self alive.  Message being: abandon your human selves, we should all be Klingons!!!

Image result for klingon celebrating

Eh...got enough Klingons from Worf and co. throughout TNG and DS9. 

^ This! We've had enough of Klingons, perhaps even a tad more than allowed before it gets old. And...

I seem to recall the point of the episode was that while Torres struggled with her mixed heritage (preferring her human side to her Klingon side), this event made her realize that both sides were what made her, well, her.  I think. It's hard to remember. But I was pretty sure that was the point, and if so...then, no, they should not have remained separated. On a series level, I think it would've been boring to remove that aspect of her character (not that the show and her character weren't often boring in spite of this). So I think for the most part, keeping them separated would've been a mistake.

I remember the message being along those lines of growing to appreciate all aspects of yourself.  Too bad!  They really should have killed her human half, but kept Torres' Klingon self alive.  Message being: abandon your human selves, we should all be Klingons!!!

Image result for klingon celebrating

Eh...got enough Klingons from Worf and co. throughout TNG and DS9. 

Out of curiosity I re-watched "Faces" this morning, since I haven't seen this episode in over 20 years.

First, it was kind of weird getting back into VGR, but more on that later.  Regarding B'Lanna and her split, I thought the human side was far more interesting; she was vulnerable and had shadings.  There was also the emergent resolve that slowly came away as she put fear behind and focused on the mission.   I could've imagine THAT character being the one who made it out alive.   She might almost be analogous to a combat soldier who suffers PTSD; she went in tough and confident (as one being), but emerged more frightened and vulnerable from her experience.   She could still retain her brilliant engineering knowledge, but now she's a more vulnerable character; like someone who's come back with a leg missing.  A piece of her is forever gone.   But alas, the EMH fixes her up to where she'll be the exact person she was the week before; with zero growth whatsoever.   Ugh!  That maddening reset button.   A curse on most of ST, really...

As for the Klingon half?  That got old really fast.  Her exaggerated, one-word-at-a-time delivery ("Why-Have-You-Brought-Me-Here?!") became a bit much after the first ten minutes or so.   While her human half was subtle and vulnerable, the Klingon half was kind of the standard 'warrior-woman' Klingon we'd seen a million times on Star Trek.   I understand the director/actor had to make the Klingon half an exaggeration because of time constraints, selling-the-point, etc.  but by today's standards of fantasy television, it feels kind of like a throwback to '60s style TV acting.

I did enjoy some of the more perverse touches; the Vidiian scientist who develops an infatuation with Klingon Torres, and puts on a dead crewman's face to impress her.   That was creepy to the Nth degree.   More scenes like that, please!  

There was also confusion (on MY part, anyway) regarding the condition of the Vidiians; we're told that they use other species for manual labor because they're weak.   But the guards around the barracks seemed mighty strong; esp. as they barked orders and shoved people around like DS9 Jem'Hadar troops.   Oh well...

Anyway, in short I would've been OK if Klingon Torres' DNA never got reintegrated (post-mortem) or never even if she never made it back to the ship...

 

... Agree on the "ugh" Re: Reset button. VOY missed many of such chances.

And also agreed on the vulnerable human half of Torres. If it hadn't been in the first season, keeping the human half alife and killing the Klingon would have been interesting (in the first season, it would have looked like that the producers regretted their choice to make Torres half-Klingon and were looking for a cheap way out).

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Honestly, I'd be happy if Klingons were now and forever relegated to guest spots.

I know everything about them and they're just...done for me.

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I just watched the episode as well. Vidiians are just creepy. Great work by the makeup dept. 

As I said, this would have been interesting in the last two seasons as we could have got the human/Klingon stuff done and then have this happen. It would have been a change similar to what they were thinking of doing with Riker on TNG when Tom Riker was found. And Roxann probably would have liked a few less hrs in the makeup chair.

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I just watched the episode as well. Vidiians are just creepy. Great work by the makeup dept. 

As I said, this would have been interesting in the last two seasons as we could have got the human/Klingon stuff done and then have this happen. It would have been a change similar to what they were thinking of doing with Riker on TNG when Tom Riker was found. And Roxann probably would have liked a few less hrs in the makeup chair.

And I still like the idea of this once hybrid character who loses that 'something' that made her special; how does one cope with that?  Kind of like a Superman series that has Clark turning permanently mortal but retaining the memory of his 'super' self.  

DS9 explored that idea when Odo lost his shape-shifting ability; and a good job they did of it, too. 

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Locutus   

I seem to recall the point of the episode was that while Torres struggled with her mixed heritage (preferring her human side to her Klingon side), this event made her realize that both sides were what made her, well, her.  I think. It's hard to remember. But I was pretty sure that was the point, and if so...then, no, they should not have remained separated. On a series level, I think it would've been boring to remove that aspect of her character (not that the show and her character weren't often boring in spite of this). So I think for the most part, keeping them separated would've been a mistake.

I remember the message being along those lines of growing to appreciate all aspects of yourself.  Too bad!  They really should have killed her human half, but kept Torres' Klingon self alive.  Message being: abandon your human selves, we should all be Klingons!!!

Image result for klingon celebrating

Eh...got enough Klingons from Worf and co. throughout TNG and DS9. 

Honestly, I agree with you there.  I'd love to see some interesting NEW aliens in the upcoming series.

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Curious, was this maybe a response to the backlash they got in the trade magazines and early blogs (chat rooms back then) about Tuvix? It's kind of the polar opposite. Two people are made from one. It was also very similar to that good Kirk and evil Kirk episode.

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Curious, was this maybe a response to the backlash they got in the trade magazines and early blogs (chat rooms back then) about Tuvix? It's kind of the polar opposite. Two people are made from one. It was also very similar to that good Kirk and evil Kirk episode.

I believe "Faces" came before "Tuvix" (?) so it really couldn't be a response to it.  

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Hammer   

No they shouldn't have left her split into two individuals. The Klingon Torres was a cliche, nothing new to learn there, while her human half was way too timid for what is essentially a military officer role. This isn't to say her character worked anyway, I just don't think that either of those other two characters she played in the episode were much better.

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